Seeking opinions on a ToB ruling

[Telonius]

I recently asked this question in the rules thread, but the answer came back "RAW unclear." It's about how the Cleave (also Great Cleave) feat interacts with Bloodstorm Blade (from ToB). The Bloodstorm Blade prestige class has a second-level ability called "Thunderous Throw," that lets you "treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn." The level 4 ability, Lightning Ricochet, Returns a thrown weapon to you immediately (not at the start of the next turn as usual) so you still have the same weapon in hand that turn. (Cleave states its attack has to be with the same weapon).

So let's say you drop a foe with a thrown weapon. The RAW-ers agreed that this generates a Cleave attack if you have the feat. But after that it gets a bit murky.


The ambiguosity is in the wording for cleave. It says you may make a melee attack against a creature "in reach." This is not necessarily the same as "within your reach," but some DM's will rule it that way. Others will say that if you can hit them with a "melee" attack they're within reach and since your thrown attacks count as melee for the moment you can make your cleave attempt with a thrown weapon attack.

The full wording of Cleave is:


If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.

It might be important to note that, when the PHB was first published, there was no way for a character to throw a weapon, recover it, and attack with it again in the same turn; Cleave would not have been an option for a thrown weapon at all.

So, if you encountered this as a DM, how would you rule on a Cleave attack produced by a thrown weapon? Does the attack have to be a (regular, non-thrown) melee attack against somebody within your regular reach, based on your initial position on the battlefield? Or can it be a thrown attack? If a thrown attack, is there a range limit on that? (Within one range increment, within max range increments?)

[LTwerewolf]

If it's treated as a melee attack, I'd rule that it can cleave as it is, so no special rules on range increment.

[docnessuno]

My interpretation is:

RAW: You can cleave with a ranged attack, but the target has to be in melee reach.
As a DM: I woud let you cleave freely within your thrown max range. If it somehow turns out to be too strong, i'd restrict if to the first range increment.

[Krazzman]

So, if you encountered this as a DM, how would you rule on a Cleave attack produced by a thrown weapon? Does the attack have to be a (regular, non-thrown) melee attack against somebody within your regular reach, based on your initial position on the battlefield? Or can it be a thrown attack? If a thrown attack, is there a range limit on that? (Within one range increment, within max range increments?)

I would allow it under the rule that the cleave-enemy has to be in 5ft(?) reach of the first target. The Flavourtext of cleave is that with a great swing you drop multiple foes at once... at least that was the flavour we had. You could use steel wind to produce a similar effect and it would work afaik.

[Slipperychicken]

BSB is already bouncing his weapons off his enemies so hard they kill other enemies. Just say he was able to get another ricochet off it. Clearing rooms of mooks with lucky rolls isn't that impressive, considering casters have been getting AoE takedowns since level 1.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Being the one that pointed out the ambiguosity in question, I feel I should weigh in.

I'd allow the BSB to cleave anyone within his thrown weapon's range. It's not a remotely overwhelming ability to have even if you upgrade to greatcleave.

[Telonius]

My biggest cause for concern would be taking that and mixing it with Shock Trooper. The result could potentially be a more powerful ability than Blade Storm, since Blade Storm only attacks enemies once, and is a full round action (so wouldn't be open to Shock Trooper add-on damage). I'm not against melee having nice things, but that seems a little off to me.

On the other hand, it's not an auto-hit, and the Shock Trooper shenanigans would be stopped by the first natural one. It would also be a six-feat combo (Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Cleave, Great Cleave, Point Blank Shot to qualify for Bloodstorm) to pull it off. Those are feats most melee guys have a strong interest in taking anyway (except for maybe Great Cleave and Point Blank); but still, six of them.

[HunterColt22]

It's clearly meant to act like a giant spiked ball when he kills with it. :/ I don't see a need to over read this, otherwise how would people with reach weapons use cleave? You would then have to redefine melee attacks for them as well. "I dropped it cool, I get cleave with my halberd." "Wait, is the next enemy within 5 feet of you?" "No but it's within my weapons reach..." "NOPE." Yeah it makes little to no sense honestly to interpret it that way considering reach weapons were written when cleave was.

[Kelb_Panthera]

My biggest cause for concern would be taking that and mixing it with Shock Trooper. The result could potentially be a more powerful ability than Blade Storm, since Blade Storm only attacks enemies once, and is a full round action (so wouldn't be open to Shock Trooper add-on damage). I'm not against melee having nice things, but that seems a little off to me.

On the other hand, it's not an auto-hit, and the Shock Trooper shenanigans would be stopped by the first natural one. It would also be a six-feat combo (Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Cleave, Great Cleave, Point Blank Shot to qualify for Bloodstorm) to pull it off. Those are feats most melee guys have a strong interest in taking anyway (except for maybe Great Cleave and Point Blank); but still, six of them.

You're putting the cart before the horse here. Ubercharger shennanigans are the bigger problem than adding this particular trick on top.

Besides, this six feat chain is stopped by a two feat one; IUS + deflect arrows.

[Slipperychicken]

Besides, this six feat chain is stopped by a two feat one; IUS + deflect arrows.

Plus many of the things which laugh at ranged, and at attack rolls in general (like half of the Illusion school, Wind Wall, incorporeality, etc.).

[RFLS]

Being the one that pointed out the ambiguosity in question, I feel I should weigh in.

I'd allow the BSB to cleave anyone within his thrown weapon's range. It's not a remotely overwhelming ability to have even if you upgrade to greatcleave.


You're putting the cart before the horse here. Ubercharger shennanigans are the bigger problem than adding this particular trick on top.

Kelb's got the right of it; the most liberal ruling isn't going to be that broken and it opens up a fun new build (Kelb, correct me if I massively misinterpreted what you just said).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Kelb's got the right of it; the most liberal ruling isn't going to be that broken and it opens up a fun new build (Kelb, correct me if I massively misinterpreted what you just said).

No, you've caught the gist of what I was saying just fine.

I think somebody even stacked that one epic feat that removes maximum range onto this combo to be able to splatter everything vulnerable to a weapon attack in line of sight all the way out to the horizon. That's an awsome mental picture ain't it?:smallamused:

[Slipperychicken]

No, you've caught the gist of what I was saying just fine.

I think somebody even stacked that one epic feat that removes maximum range onto this combo to be able to splatter everything vulnerable to a weapon attack in line of sight all the way out to the horizon. That's an awsome mental picture ain't it?:smallamused:

1. Get enough Ubercharge damage to destroy a 5x5 square of dirt/rock/whatever.

2. Attack all dirt blocks in range in Line of Sight with Far Shot Ubercharge BSB, destroying them.

3. All dirt blocks below these are now within line of sight, continue the Full Attack, destroying them too.

4. ???

5. Minecraft OR destroy universe.

[docnessuno]

1. Get enough Ubercharge damage to destroy a 5x5 square of dirt/rock/whatever.

2. Attack all dirt blocks in range with Far Shot Ubercharge BSB.

3. All dirt blocks below these are now within line of sight, continue the Full Attack, destroying them too.

4. ???

5. Minecraft OR destroy universe.

Sadly a dirt block would hardly qualify as "a creature"


If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop

[Slipperychicken]

Sadly a dirt block would hardly qualify as "a creature"

Then you'd just have to use the BSB capstone ability, Blade Storm. It merely specifies "targets". Then find some way to put sufficient damage onto it.

[TopCheese]

Sadly a dirt block would hardly qualify as "a creature"

Silly everyone knows that since 4e the planets/planes are alive! Where else does the primal power source come from?

Yeah that should be blue...

Now to wait for someone to find a way to let you attack unattended objects with this combo...