Level 6 Choices

[prufock]

Hey all, I'm just seeking opinions on my next level. Currently I'm playing a Bard 4/Marshal 1. I'm filling multiple roles in the party: buffer, face, secondary arcane, shared healing, combat support, and last but not least, skill monkey.

We'll hit level 6 soon, and I'm undecided about what to do with it. It's a pretty low powered game (tier 3-4, except the wizard who is not really optimized or experienced). We've also got limited sources. Classes may be drawn only from PHB, PHB 2, DMG, MM, or MiniHB. Feats, spells, skills, items, etc can be drawn from other sources at DM's approval, and he's being strict about us not getting spells and feats he considers OP. I've managed to get Melodic Spellcasting and Inspirational Boost, but most IC optimization has been nixed.

What I want: trapfinding, disable device, open lock, lots of skill points, more hit points, and increased buffing and face abilities. I could go with more Bard, more Marshal, Rogue 1, or Beguiler 1. I'm leaning toward Beguiler for more spells, decent skill points with disable and open lock as class skills, and good will save.

My ultimate build idea, if we go all the way to 20 (not likely, but I tend to always build to 20 anyway), is likely Bard 16/Marshal 3/Beguiler 1. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Maybe I'm missing something and Beguiler isn't actually the best choice. Maybe there's another class that I'm not even considering. Keep in mind the limited source books.

Thanks

EDIT: Also, if you've got suggestions for my level 6 feat (currently have Combat Expertise, Melodic Spellcasting, and Jack of All Trades), go ahead. I was thinking Leadership if my DM allows it, but we're playing as a spy team for now, so it might be off the table.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Song of the Heart(ECS) would make a nice lvl 6 feat, if you get it allowed.

As for the 1 level dip, i don't think beguiler is worth it since you will never advance that spellcasting.

Rogue 1 might be interesting if you're allowed to take the variant that
gets fighter bonus feats (from UA), getting you Improved Initiative.

[RFLS]

Hey all, I'm just seeking opinions on my next level. Currently I'm playing a Bard 4/Marshal 1. I'm filling multiple roles in the party: buffer, face, secondary arcane, shared healing, combat support, and last but not least, skill monkey.

We'll hit level 6 soon, and I'm undecided about what to do with it. It's a pretty low powered game (tier 3-4, except the wizard who is not really optimized or experienced). We've also got limited sources. Classes may be drawn only from PHB, PHB 2, DMG, MM, or MiniHB. Feats, spells, skills, items, etc can be drawn from other sources at DM's approval, and he's being strict about us not getting spells and feats he considers OP. I've managed to get Melodic Spellcasting and Inspirational Boost, but most IC optimization has been nixed.

What I want: trapfinding, disable device, open lock, lots of skill points, more hit points, and increased buffing and face abilities. I could go with more Bard, more Marshal, Rogue 1, or Beguiler 1. I'm leaning toward Beguiler for more spells, decent skill points with disable and open lock as class skills, and good will save.

My ultimate build idea, if we go all the way to 20 (not likely, but I tend to always build to 20 anyway), is likely Bard 16/Marshal 3/Beguiler 1. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Maybe I'm missing something and Beguiler isn't actually the best choice. Maybe there's another class that I'm not even considering. Keep in mind the limited source books.

Thanks

EDIT: Also, if you've got suggestions for my level 6 feat (currently have Combat Expertise, Melodic Spellcasting, and Jack of All Trades), go ahead. I was thinking Leadership if my DM allows it, but we're playing as a spy team for now, so it might be off the table.

Hrm. So....you've got a few things awry here, but it's t3-t4, so it's not too big a worry. The biggest, biggest problem is that 1 level of Beguiler. I cannot stress how bad an idea this is; you'll be gimped for casting in two classes. Do not do this.

That being said, if you like the beguiler class, the bard is really good at filling that role if you're using core classes. Bard 18/Marshal 2 would not be a terrible build; you'd get Cha synergy, a major and a minor aura, and 6th level spells. I wouldn't take your second level of Marshal for a while, perhaps until 10 or so. Combat Expertise is...not a good feat for what you're doing, I would say. You might wish to find out about retraining that. The other feats are fine; if you're filling the role of party buffer I would maybe recommend Extend Spell. Leadership is as ever a good feat, but if your DM allows it he's....uh....not very familiar with the, you know. Rules.

Quite honestly, you might be trying to cover too many roles. I would suggest you try to narrow down what you're doing, you can't really do it all.

[prufock]

Song of the Heart(ECS) would make a nice lvl 6 feat, if you get it allowed.

As for the 1 level dip, i don't think beguiler is worth it since you will never advance that spellcasting.

Rogue 1 might be interesting if you're allowed to take the variant that
gets fighter bonus feats (from UA), getting you Improved Initiative.
Song of the Heart is out, as is Words of Creation. Vest of Legends and Badge of Honor are allowed, but I can't afford them at the moment. UA variants are also out.


Quite honestly, you might be trying to cover too many roles. I would suggest you try to narrow down what you're doing, you can't really do it all.
Yeah, I know I'm spread a bit thin. For healing I'm really just using a wand of CLW in emergencies or outside combat. The dragon shaman has the vigor aura which gives us fast healing 2 up to half. I'm not really much of a combatant either; average hit points, +5 to attacks. I seem to get knocked unconscious every battle, so I'll be looking to grab a +con item asap.

My main roles are buffer, face man, and skill monkey. Bardic music (with Inspirational Boost) for +2 in combat or for skills, and the motivate charisma aura (mostly to pump my own face abilities).

You are both against Beguiler. I know it puts my Bard casting behind more, but I was thinking it was worth it. I'd grab some 1st level utility spells (Expeditious Retreat, Detect Secret Doors, Undetectable Alignment, Comprehend Languages, Silent Image), saving on spells known for my bard levels. And I really do kind of need Trapfinding and Disable Device and Open Lock as class skills. Beguiler seems better than rogue.

Maybe an alternative would be to go the route of Find Traps and Knock scrolls/wands. I could grab Dispel Magic as a Bard spell for magic traps (or convince the illusionist to get it), and maybe get Practiced Spellcaster allowed. Or I could go Marshal and take either Motivate Dexterity or Motivate Intelligence.

Extend Spell could be useful, though at this level I've only got up to 2nd level spells. Lingering Song (if allowed) might be a better bet for now. Not sure if Leadership will go ahead.

[HunterColt22]

Why do you have traps running around if you have no way of finding them effectively? :smallconfused: Granted I understand this is a moot point, but if you don't have someone who has the ability to seem them, without you know, buying a huge magic item to make it permanent on them, or just buying scrolls upon scrolls, especially at this level, seems, a whee bit odd. Granted I love rogues so I never leave home without one, but eh just my thought. I also agree, you are already spreading thin, going for beguiler would just crimp you even further. If you could get marshal retained into rogue you would be fine, and solve half your problems, the auras are a minor thing, considering the dragon shaman is doing the same thing, just at a slower pace. Also Bard gets most of the spells Beguilers get, just a few levels less, but that isn't really worth mentioning at the moment since you have a wizard it seems.

Try to get that one level of Marshal retained as rogue and you should be set.

[prufock]

Why do you have traps running around if you have no way of finding them effectively?
They aren't ubiquitous, but they exist. The DM takes the "these characters exist within an existing world" approach rather than the "this world exists around these characters" approach. If we venture into a dungeon or tower with traps, we're going to encounter traps and locked doors. That said, there are other ways around traps and locks. Maybe a few reserve scrolls are fine, and get the wizard to learn Dispel Magic (and probably grab it myself when I get high enough level).


I also agree, you are already spreading thin, going for beguiler would just crimp you even further. If you could get marshal retained into rogue you would be fine, and solve half your problems, the auras are a minor thing, considering the dragon shaman is doing the same thing, just at a slower pace.
Retraining the Marshal level isn't an option for me. I'd lose nearly half my effectiveness as a party face, since the aura I chose was Motivate Charisma.

That said, it seems unanimous that Beguiler is a bad idea. Currently, my dungeoneering skills are at:
Disable Device +7
Open Lock +5
Search +5
Another level of bard will bump those each by +1 with Bardic Knack, and I can pop off a Heroism to boost that by another 2. The Dragon Shaman also has auras to help with some skills, so I could be looking at +10 to +12 ideally, which may be enough. Find Traps will give me another +1 to Search.

Okay, new question for you fine folks:
Any suggestions for helpful spells, given my face/buffer/skill monkey role? For level 5 I can pick up one first and one second level spell.
Currently I've got:
0: Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic
1: Charm Person, Grease, Inspirational Boost
2: Alter Self, Heroism

[dextercorvia]

Improvisation is something you might want to look into.

[hex0]

I'd probably snag Dragon Shaman for more auras.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, this really depends on what you want to do with your character.

If you want some skillmonkey-ness, go with Rogue. Why? Well, some situational damage boost from Sneak Attack, but also for Evasion from Rogue2. This should help protect you from those Ref/Half problems you encounter.

Beguiler is a lot of fun. Honestly, if you were allowed a re-write, I'd probably go straight Beguiler and be done with the matter. But you've got too many levels sunk in Bard to not keep going with it.

[prufock]

Improvisation is something you might want to look into.
I requested; not approved. Love that spell, though.


Well, this really depends on what you want to do with your character.

Beguiler was my second choice, actually. For this character, skill monkey is a tertiary role, behind buffer and party face, however buff and face I have covered as well as I can for the moment.

Though I can see the usefulness of Evasion, I was hoping not to sink more than 1 level into something other than bard and marshal. I'd like to get a second minor marshal aura (either Motivate Dex or Motivate Int), which would help my skill bonuses quite a bit, but still not give me that ability to search for traps over DC 20 or disarm magical traps.

I think I'll stick with some reserve scrolls of Knock and Find Traps for now, and just take another level in Bard. If I find I have a lot of traps to deal with in the next few sessions maybe I'll change my mind before I take level 6.

[Rejakor]

Dipping can be a bit of a tainted fruit.

The point of taking more than one level of Bard is the free Suggestions at level 6, and the +2 Inspire Courage at level 8 (or level 3 with vest of legends). Possibly also you could go bard whatever you need to get level 3 spells, and then Sublime Chord, but eurgh.

Currently for a.. +4? bonus on your cha-based skills you're slowing your bard progression and also your BAB progression.

Are you trying to fight in melee? Bards need to be specifically built for that to do that (slippers of battledancing, nixie's grace, snowflake wardance, all are MUSTS before you even consider it). If you're not built specifically to do that, BUY A BOW. Shoot ARROWS at things. Ideally also somehow pick up Point Blank and Rapid Shot (feat rogue dip after 6th, maybe), but that's not super important.


Essentially it looks like you started being a bard to be a Courage Bard, i.e. optimized inspire courage/dragonfire inspiration, but the DM has banned all the stuff you need to be a Courage Bard, so now you're talky guy and kinda sucky guy.

Retrain into either Beguiler or Transmuter Wizard. Both do what you seem to want to be much better than a nerfed courage bard.


Either that or dip Binder, take Improved Binding, bind Naberius, and Combat Negotiate your way to victory. Diplomance essentially, since that's pretty much all that's left to you.

[rockdeworld]

What is the rest of your party like? If you're trying to cover every role that isn't tank, they're doing something wrong.

You're using a wand of CLW outside of battle for healing, so you're doing it right.

Since you already have scrolls of Knock and Find Traps (which is really the wizard's duty, not yours), why not talk to the wizard about making scrolls of Summon Monster 1? That way you guys have a way to find the traps, activate them safely, and then open the locks without anyone having to use trapfinding or disable device/open lock.

This is what you want: trapfinding, disable device, open lock, lots of skill points, more hit points, and increased buffing and face abilities.

I break them into 3 groups:
1. trapfinding, disable device, open lock, and lots of skill points
You can get these by going rogue, beguiler, whatever sneaky class. If you work with your wizard though (as I mentioned above), you won't need to.

2. more hit points
1 & 2 are usually exclusive. In fact, it's exclusive with continuing as a bard too. If you can get Improved Toughness as a feat, that will help, though it will mean giving up on other great options. You'll have to look at other classes to get a big boost here, which I'm not really qualified to give advice on (I play core). On the plus side, it sounds like the party has a solid tank, so you're fine without the hit points as long as you use a ranged weapon.

3. increased buffing and face abilities
This comes with continuing in the bard class. The downside is you don't get more of groups 1 or 2 with this. At this level you can take Eagle's Splendor to boost your fascinate DC and diplomacy abilities. Next level you'll get Suggestion, which will send your face ability through the roof. You can also find buffing as a Bard, as others have mentioned, or even debuffing, since options are good.

You yourself know the problem with trying to cover all bases. I recommend you decide what you want your character to do well, and start specializing. If your DM continues to prevent you from optimizing at all, then your party will have to get used to it.

Someone might die and have to roll a new character. Then they can be the rogue. That's a part of the game, and you guys can deal with it when it comes.

[prufock]

The point of taking more than one level of Bard is the free Suggestions at level 6, and the +2 Inspire Courage at level 8 (or level 3 with vest of legends). Possibly also you could go bard whatever you need to get level 3 spells, and then Sublime Chord, but eurgh.

Currently for a.. +4? +5 bonus on your everybody's cha-based skills you're slowing your bard progression and also your BAB progression.

Just a couple corrections. Sublime Chord is not in an allowed source book. The limited sources are a bit of a bane, but the DM wanted to keep things fairly simple and low-powered.


Are you trying to fight in melee? (...) BUY A BOW.
No, I'm not built for melee and I know it. It's just been my bad luck that I've ended up there. I have a bow and bane arrows of every colour, as well as a net and a whip. My best weapon is a melee weapon found as part of treasure, but I might end up either selling it or giving it to the Duskblade (who missed last session) as neither the wizard nor dragon shaman are interested.


Essentially it looks like you started being a bard to be a Courage Bard, i.e. optimized inspire courage/dragonfire inspiration, but the DM has banned all the stuff you need to be a Courage Bard, so now you're talky guy and kinda sucky guy.

In a way. My concept for this guy was mostly party face, to be honest. The last game I was in I played a fear-based caster, so this time I did a 180 and went for an "everybody's best friend" concept - which is, as you said, basically diplomancy. Buffing was secondary. Vest of Legends and Badge of Valor are allowed, I just can't afford them at the moment.

Neither Beguiler or Transmuter will do anything to really match the concept, and I'm not really interested in retraining. Binder is also outside the source material.


What is the rest of your party like? If you're trying to cover every role that isn't tank, they're doing something wrong.
1. Gnome wizard (illusionist) 5 - The only party member above tier 3, he isn't optimized or all that experienced. Effective in the right situations, though. Crossbow when spells run out/aren't feasible.
2. Dwarf duskblade 5 - Gish and thus our main damage-dealer. Fairly effective but missed last session.
3. Dragon Shaman 5 - Secondary frontliner and utility with auras (including vigor for healing to half and a dex-booster for better initiative).


Since you already have scrolls of Knock and Find Traps (which is really the wizard's duty, not yours), why not talk to the wizard about making scrolls of Summon Monster 1? That way you guys have a way to find the traps, activate them safely, and then open the locks without anyone having to use trapfinding or disable device/open lock.
I'll add this to my list of suggestions for the wizard (also includes "take Dispel Magic" and "use your spells!"). I think, between the group as a whole, we can find ways to circumvent the need for trapfinding.

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys/gals!