[3.P] Green Dragon with Druid Levels

[RFLS]

Hey, playground, quick question. I've got an adult green dragon that's mildly plot important; I'm looking at beefing him up because my party has a bad habit of toasting things that were a) far beyond their nominal CR, and b) they weren't supposed to toast. How would giving him druid casting instead of sorcerer casting go, do you suppose?

[DaTedinator]

Wouldn't change anything, he'd still get shredded. The problem is less his power level, and more that there's only one of him, and a handful of PCs; their superior number of actions let them wipe the floor with his one standard action per round.

If you want to make him PC-resistant, give him minions and escape plans. They probably can't move faster than him, so if he can fly away, he's good. And minions help balance the action economy.

Note that this is just a generic response working off of generic assumptions about your party, the dragon, and the type of game you play. Obviously there are a number of variables that can change everything I just said.

[sleepyphoenixx]

He'd get a few nice defensive options from his 3rd level Druid spells,
but two 3rd level spells aren't going to make him that much tougher.

i think a better option would be the tweaking the location.
Since green dragons have a swim speed and water breathing,
putting him next to a lake and having him escape underwater if your PCs attack might be an option.

Additionally, as a Druid his lair could be his hallow.
You could have a hallow spell in effect giving him various boni and maybe have a few animals that defend him if he is attacked.

[HunterColt22]

It would depend on what level you are giving him and if he can still spontaneously cast like a sorc or if he needs to prep his spells like a druid would now.

Pretty much what they all said. the dragon is going to get swarmed and if they have a rogue with them, well, you might as well kiss him good bye even faster, especially if the rogue took staggering strike.

[Voyd211]

Something possibly-trivial that I see: Why would a dragon need Wild Shape? That's pretty much the main druid ability, and it's fairly redundant if you're already one of the most "HOLY CRAP THIS IS AWESOME" creatures in the setting.

[Darius Kane]

Something possibly-trivial that I see: Why would a dragon need Wild Shape? That's pretty much the main druid ability, and it's fairly redundant if you're already one of the most "HOLY CRAP THIS IS AWESOME" creatures in the setting.
He's only replacing Sorcerer casting with Druid casting, not giving the dragon Druid levels.

[RFLS]

He's only replacing Sorcerer casting with Druid casting, not giving the dragon Druid levels.

^ Also, at this point I'm more inclined to just let him have access to the druid list as though it's the wizard/sorcerer list.

For minions, I'm thinking some treants at the very least. Does anyone have suggestions for other fun forest themed minions? Also, at whoever it was, he's already laired up in a lake =P

[Coidzor]

^ Also, at this point I'm more inclined to just let him have access to the druid list as though it's the wizard/sorcerer list.

For minions, I'm thinking some treants at the very least. Does anyone have suggestions for other fun forest themed minions? Also, at whoever it was, he's already laired up in a lake =P

I believe there's something from Dragons of Eberron's Sovereign Archetypes that actually does that very thing, haha.

[sleepyphoenixx]

^ Also, at this point I'm more inclined to just let him have access to the druid list as though it's the wizard/sorcerer list.

For minions, I'm thinking some treants at the very least. Does anyone have suggestions for other fun forest themed minions? Also, at whoever it was, he's already laired up in a lake =P

greenbound animals should be a tough challenge, or at least give the dragon time to escape with their SLAs.
Also, they can be hidden in the surrounding vegetation thanks to their boosts to hide/move silently as a nasty surprise for your PCs if they decide to get violent :smallsmile:

Other nice options would be nixies and various other forest- or water related fey, shamblers, twilight guardians or water and air elementals

[Invader]

Additionally, as a Druid his lair could be his hallow.
You could have a hallow spell in effect giving him various boni and maybe have a few animals that defend him if he is attacked.

Various boni? :smallconfused:

[Amnestic]

An adult Green Dragon has an Int of 16 which means he's "pretty smart". I'm confused as to why a "pretty smart" dragon who has lived for at least a century (100-200 years) would let himself be swarmed by adventurers. One would guess that by now he's got plans in place should an adventuring party smash his front door in (first of which is 'fly away and engage the party on his terms where he wouldn't be swarmed on the ground').

[RFLS]

An adult Green Dragon has an Int of 16 which means he's "pretty smart". I'm confused as to why a "pretty smart" dragon who has lived for at least a century (100-200 years) would let himself be swarmed by adventurers. One would guess that by now he's got plans in place should an adventuring party smash his front door in (first of which is 'fly away and engage the party on his terms where he wouldn't be swarmed on the ground').

So, we seem to have gotten massively off point somehow >.> the original question was "how does granting a dragon druid casting instead of sorcerer casting work balance-wise?"

I'm very capable of running an encounter intelligently, the problem is that the party contains 3 full casters, and they're all capable of playing intentionally.

[RFLS]

I believe there's something from Dragons of Eberron's Sovereign Archetypes that actually does that very thing, haha.

Hm...now I really want to get hold of that book.


greenbound animals should be a tough challenge, or at least give the dragon time to escape with their SLAs.
Also, they can be hidden in the surrounding vegetation thanks to their boosts to hide/move silently as a nasty surprise for your PCs if they decide to get violent :smallsmile:

Other nice options would be nixies and various other forest- or water related fey, shamblers, twilight guardians or water and air elementals

Oooh...I had actually forgotten the greenbound template, that's a good idea. Do you have a good source for fey? I've never found one that has more than one or two fey per book, and it's always disappointed me.

[candycorn]

Child of Eberron Archetype.

Cost: Loses the ability to cast from any cleric lists, if the dragon has it.

Benefit: Learns Druidic for free. Survival is a class skill. Can cast Druidic spells as arcane spells.

This can yield, at older ages, some pretty nasty combinations.

That said... Green Dragons have swim speed, and high fly speed. Use that fully.

[Coidzor]

So, we seem to have gotten massively off point somehow >.> the original question was "how does granting a dragon druid casting instead of sorcerer casting work balance-wise?"

I'm very capable of running an encounter intelligently, the problem is that the party contains 3 full casters, and they're all capable of playing intentionally.

If you're just substituting wholesale, then I'd say it's weaker in some ways, stronger in others, but there's not a whole lot of effect aside from losing some defenses like scintillating scales and gaining some druid tricks instead of sorcerer ones. I'd call it neutral to negligibly weaker.

Now, able to learn druid and sorcerer/wizard spells, that's a boost, but not a huge one. I can't think of any abusive tricks or loops offhand, but there's at least something that could be done to be vicious, to be sure. But limited by the fact that it's only able to learn so many spells.

Now if it was a spell-hoarder with both wizard and druid spells, that'd be a different thing and it'd be pretty well off.

[Reynard]

So, we seem to have gotten massively off point somehow >.> the original question was "how does granting a dragon druid casting instead of sorcerer casting work balance-wise?"

More defensive and offensive buffs, less AoE damage spells. If it's got a Rod of Extend it could have several really long-running buffs prepared ahead of time if it knows they're on their way, and being a Druid, could change it's environment/home to give it a more favourable arena in which to fight/escape.

Overall? Improves it quite a bit, if it has enough prior knowledge that the PCs are coming for it. If it casts Druid spells like a sorcerer casts Arcane spells, then boosts it a lot more.

It'll have a lot less damage though, so may need animal friends to help out. Greenbound or otherwise.

[Runestar]

Your PCs are going to be what? lv14? 15? At that level, I doubt the 2nd or 3rd lv spells the dragon casts are going to have any impact on the encounter, whatever school they come from or what type they are.

[RFLS]

Your PCs are going to be what? lv14? 15? At that level, I doubt the 2nd or 3rd lv spells the dragon casts are going to have any impact on the encounter, whatever school they come from or what type they are.

I'm still laughing... They'll be about level 7 or 8.

[Runestar]

I'm still laughing... They'll be about level 7 or 8.

Even then, those spells are going to pale in comparison to whatever attacks your dragon can muster, be it a full-attack or strafe-breath weapon. If it is buffs you want, your dragon can always access those readily via potions, scrolls or 1-shot magic items.

I personally think you are overthinking things. :smalltongue:

[RFLS]

I personally think you are overthinking things. :smalltongue:

Yeah, well.... If I don't overthink things with this group, they end up blazing through my encounters.

[RFLS]

Child of Eberron Archetype.

Cost: Loses the ability to cast from any cleric lists, if the dragon has it.

Benefit: Learns Druidic for free. Survival is a class skill. Can cast Druidic spells as arcane spells.

This can yield, at older ages, some pretty nasty combinations.

That said... Green Dragons have swim speed, and high fly speed. Use that fully.

When you say "cast Druidic spells as arcane," do you mean it treats the Druid list as part of its spells known list?


Now if it was a spell-hoarder with both wizard and druid spells, that'd be a different thing and it'd be pretty well off.

I'm going to ask a stupid question, but what do you mean by "spell hoarder" ?


More defensive and offensive buffs, less AoE damage spells. If it's got a Rod of Extend it could have several really long-running buffs prepared ahead of time if it knows they're on their way, and being a Druid, could change it's environment/home to give it a more favourable arena in which to fight/escape.

Overall? Improves it quite a bit, if it has enough prior knowledge that the PCs are coming for it. If it casts Druid spells like a sorcerer casts Arcane spells, then boosts it a lot more.

It'll have a lot less damage though, so may need animal friends to help out. Greenbound or otherwise.

Rod(s?) of Extend are already on the table. For a lair I've got a cavern system that has exits in a lake and the surrounding forest. The main part of his lair is not accessible without going through underwater bits.

[Jeraa]

When you say "cast Druidic spells as arcane," do you mean it treats the Druid list as part of its spells known list?

Kind of. It would be able to choose its spells known from both the sorcerer and druid spell lists. It wouldn't automatically get all of them.

Some dragons have the ability to cast cleric as if they were also sorcerer spells, as well as from a few cleric domains. Specifically blue, red, brass, bronze, copper, gold, and silver dragons. Actually, every true dragon type in the Monster Manual except black, white, and green.

[RFLS]

Kind of. It would be able to choose its spells known from both the sorcerer and druid spell lists. It wouldn't automatically get all of them.

Okay. That's probably what I'll end up doing, tbh.


Some dragons have the ability to cast cleric as if they were also sorcerer spells, as well as from a few cleric domains. Specifically blue, red, brass, bronze, copper, gold, and silver dragons. Actually, every true dragon type in the Monster Manual except black, white, and green.

Woah. Where is this? I have never seen reference to this, unless you're talking about the SLAs dragons get with age.

[Jeraa]

The "X Dragon Abilities by Age" table, at the very bottom of it. All of the dragons I mentioned have something similiar to the following:


1. Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains as arcane spells.

The above being from the red dragon. Different dragon types have different cleric domains they can choose from.

Blue- Air, Evil, and Law
Red- Chaos, Evil, and Fire
Brass- Chaos and Knowledge
Bronze- Animal, Law, and Water
Copper- Chaos, Earth, and Trickery
Gold- Law, Luck, and Good
Silver- Air, Good, Law, and Sun

So, you could give green dragons Druidic casting, and say the Plant and Animal domains, and you would still be in line with what the other dragon types have.

And give black dragons the Water and Plant domains, and possibly druid spells as well. White dragons could get air and water.

[RFLS]

The "X Dragon Abilities by Age" table, at the very bottom of it.

Oh, holy crap. I can't believe I'd never seen that before. That's great. I'm thinking plant, earth, and air domains. (Pathfinder, if it makes a difference) Okay, so, access to the druid and sorcerer lists, those domains, and now I need to stat up some minions. I'm thinking (like I said earlier) a few treants, any fey I can find, and some greenbound animals and magical beasts.

Would it be amiss to apply the greenbound template to a treant?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Oh, holy crap. I can't believe I'd never seen that before. That's great. I'm thinking plant, earth, and air domains. (Pathfinder, if it makes a difference) Okay, so, access to the druid and sorcerer lists, those domains, and now I need to stat up some minions. I'm thinking (like I said earlier) a few treants, any fey I can find, and some greenbound animals and magical beasts.

Would it be amiss to apply the greenbound template to a treant?

By the book, you can't, but i don't see why not from a technical perspective.
A treant wouldn't get the full benefits since it already has a few of them, but it would make him quite a bit tougher
(and a lot more annoying to fight if you use the full extent of greenbounds SLAs and improved stealth capability)

It's just a fluff restriction, but if you're bothered by that it's easy to refluff it
as being a "evolved treant" instead of greenbound.

[Coidzor]

I'm going to ask a stupid question, but what do you mean by "spell hoarder" ?

Spellhoarding is a dragon neurosis from Dragon Magazine 313, IIRC.

Essentially it lets the dragon use its scales as a spellbook and converts its racial sorcerer casting levels into wizard casting levels which means it can know a lot more spells.

There's more to it than that, of course, but that's the main thing of it. It's often combined with the Loredrake sovereign archetype in order to give an extra spell level or two to dragons.

Knowing essentially any/every druid or wizard spell of levels it has access to can lead to a lot of fun tricks it can set up in advance to defend itself and a lot of options.

Especially cheesy with Dragonwrought Kobolds with Loredrake, but that's an entire kettle of fish unto itself whether it works or should work.