Versus! #3!

[Cranthis]

I'm going to give you guys two 3.5 classes, sometimes drastically different, sometimes very similar. I want to hear your opinions on who would win between the two, and why. The only rule is "Don't use tiers as your only means of explanation". This isn't any sort of contest, it is just a side by side comparison of classes.

Today's versus: Arcane Trickster vs Daggerspell Mage

Assume both are level 20 (this will not always be the case)
Assume both use all 10 levels of each class. You may use whatever way to get into it you want.
Use your own logic, and your own builds if you want, and explain which side you think wins.

This thread is for gathering general opinions, and is not intended to copy anything similar that may have been done already, excluding my own posts.

Book Limits are: Core, Including PHB2 and Dmg2, as well as the "Complete" books.

Edit: This is not necessarily a pvp scenario, but if you want to explain things that way, go ahead. Generally, a side by side comparison is good to have too.

[Arcanist]

Hmm... Can we take level dips in other classes (or level dips in the other classes for example can the Arcane Trickster build include levels of Daggerspell mage?)

[Cranthis]

As long as it is level 20, and uses all 10 levels of the class your argument sides with, its within the rules.

[eggs]

If we're talking level 20, their actual abilities are irrelevant, casting is what really matters with regards to their gameplay.

Daggerspell Mage loses a caster level and requires feats blown on melee combat. Arcane Trickster doesn't, and is left with more resources to improve its casting. That puts AT at an advantage (assuming its user has some knowledge of the resources available and isn't suckered into something like Rogue 3/caster 5 entry).

At lower levels (9-12 or so), the respective classes' abilities would be more relevant, but DSM still has the lost CL, crummy feats and features pushing its squishy low-BA/HP caster into melee full attack range, which is at best a waste of resources, and at worst a recipe to get splattered by a few unlucky rolls.

[Cranthis]

I disagree. Class abilities can be a great advantage, at any level.

[eggs]

Depends on the class abilities.

In the case of a character who whacks things with sharp objects, class abilities that make it better at whacking things with sharp objects are relevant (like the Warblade, Master Thrower and so forth).

In the case of a character who can cast game-changing spells, class abilities that make its spells even more game-changing (like Incantatrix, Recaster, Dweomerkeeper, War Weaver and so forth) are very important.

But in the case of a character who can cast game-changing spells, class abilities that make it better at whacking things with sharp objects aren't really worth considering - its actions are so conspicuously better spent building new planes of existence or conjuring the generals of heaven and hell that the ability to do 9d6 extra frequently-negated damage doesn't play a very meaningful role in the character's capabilities.

EDIT: Actually, I just noticed that the Daggerspell Mage's capstone is slightly abusable for allowing spells with 1 round+ durations to be cast in a full round+swift action, but that's still not making up the 2 feats+caster level.

[Cranthis]

Not as big as number 2 was, but I still think It was successful.

[Kane0]

You're really good at picking combinations that are tough to pick between aren't you :smallamused:

Both being prestige classes, it's up to the build.
If you want a rogue-like character with a bit of spellcasting muscle then arcane trickster is a straight forward combination of those powers, not sacrificing much (BAB mostly) for the nice abilities
If you want a support melee/gish focused on touch spells the Daggerspell Mage offers the neat tricks that make your life easier.

Overall utility and sneak attacking, I'd go Arcane trickster. For a skillgish, I'd go DSM

[Cranthis]

You're really good at picking combinations that are tough to pick between aren't you :smallamused:

Haha I try too pick things that are fairly similar, enough that you guys have to actually think about it. Think about how terrible these things would be if I was always using terrible matches, like cleric vs fighter.

I'm hoping tomorow's Versus will be just as hard. I allready have it set up.

[Ikeren]

Who would win what? A sustained arena combat of increasingly difficult opponents? A versatile campaign with combat and diplomacy and puzzles and lengthy quests and magic and thieves guilds to sneak into?

A one on one duel?

If we're looking at one on one duel:

Daggerspell mage: d6, 2 wasted feats, 1d6 sneak attack.
6+ int skills
It loses 1 caster level and gets no abilities that improve it's casting in any meaningful way.

Arcane Trickster: d4, 2d6 sneak attack
4+ int skills, more wasted skills, 2-less BAB

So really, you're looking at whatever entrance (Daggerspell mage can get in with Rogue 1, Arcane Trickster gets in with Swordsage 2 late enough, or Rogue1/Spellthief 1 or whatever)

They'll both be 18th level casters. Arcane trickster gets 3d6 more sneak attack (7d6), 10 less HP, 20 less skills (~30 less skills once you include requirements), but 2 more feats. Both of them have a set of abilities that are basically downright useless compared to 9th level spells. Both have a bit of room for crazy wizard shenanigans. Both of them have plenty of room for "I go first, I win" combos.

Consider:
Wiz3/Specialist 2/Incantatrix 3/Swordsage2/Arcane Trickster 10
Wiz3/Specialist 2/Incantatrix 4/Rogue 1/Daggerspell Mage 10.

Your substantive differences are almost immeasurably minor in the face of 18th level wiard casting, but I feel like I'd give it to Daggerspell Mage for the 10 more HP, 20-30 more skill points, and the +1 level of a different prestige class, at the loss of 2 feats.

On reread, I see that the restriction is arbitrarly core + completes. Whatever. Replace Incantatrix with something good (Mage of the Arcane Order? Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil? Archmage? at the end of the build) and swordsage with rogue 1/spellthief 1.

I didn't go into any bizarre early entry cheese, because whatever I used they probably could both use.

[eggs]

So really, you're looking at whatever entrance (Daggerspell mage can get in with Rogue 1, Arcane Trickster gets in with Swordsage 2 late enough, or Rogue1/Spellthief 1 or whatever)

They'll both be 18th level casters.
Why not Rogue/Unseen Seer or Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) at level 10? (The level 10 feat can come out of Martial Wizard 5.) Lose 1 or 0 casting levels, respectively.

[dextercorvia]

Why not Rogue/Unseen Seer or Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) at level 10? (The level 10 feat can come out of Martial Wizard 5.) Lose 1 or 0 casting levels, respectively.

It is the 7 ranks of Disable Device and Escape Artist that make this difficult. We have to do Dusk Giant shenanigans or the equivalent.

[eggs]

It is the 7 ranks of Disable Device and Escape Artist that make this difficult. We have to do Dusk Giant shenanigans or the equivalent.
I think I've been cutting too many corners writing things up.

I mean combining Rogue and Unseen Seer to meet the Sneak attack requirement, probably arranged like Rogue 1/Wizard 4/US 1, or using martial wizard to similarly cut down on lost CL, probably Wizard 3/Master Specialist 2/full casting 4/Martial Wizard 1 to pick up Martial Stance as soon as it hits IL 5.

[dextercorvia]

I think I've been cutting too many corners writing things up.

I mean combining Rogue and Unseen Seer to meet the Sneak attack requirement, probably arranged like Rogue 1/Wizard 4/US 1, or using martial wizard to similarly cut down on lost CL, probably Wizard 3/Master Specialist 2/full casting 4/Martial Wizard 1 to pick up Martial Stance as soon as it hits IL 5.

So, you are advancing non-existent sneak attack with Unseen Seer in the first build? Isn't that like applying an Int bonus to mindless undead?

For the second build, you aren't getting 7 ranks in those two skills by 10th level, unless one of your PrCs has them as a class skill.

[eggs]

So, you are advancing non-existent sneak attack with Unseen Seer in the first build? Isn't that like applying an Int bonus to mindless undead?

For the second build, you aren't getting 7 ranks in those two skills by 10th level, unless one of your PrCs has them as a class skill.
The first one has a rogue level, so Unseen Seer does advance sneak attack, which means valid AT entry with more CL than a comparably conventionally build DSM.

The second still has some hoops to jump through (dip Geometer/Halfling Whistler or whatever; Escape Artist takes some bookdiving, but doesn't necessarily come with a feat cost or worse class abilities), but if 20/20 casting is the goal, AT can do it.

[Cranthis]

Be prepared for Versus #4!

[dextercorvia]

The first one has a rogue level, so Unseen Seer does advance sneak attack, which means valid AT entry with more CL than a comparably conventionally build DSM.

The second still has some hoops to jump through (dip Geometer/Halfling Whistler or whatever; Escape Artist takes some bookdiving, but doesn't necessarily come with a feat cost or worse class abilities), but if 20/20 casting is the goal, AT can do it.

My apologies on the first one. I obviously had a reading fail. It stemmed from assuming that you were aiming for 20/20 with both builds.