Truenamer Bard

[alanek2002]

I did some searching for this on google, and I believe somebody must have done it before, but what if...
There was a truenamer bard? I know that they would suck, and be useless, but in a roleplay only game, imagine the possibilities! And if I'm wrong, and it would be a little better than a plain truenamer, how would you make it work?

[grarrrg]

I did some searching for this on google, and I believe somebody must have done it before, but what if...
There was a truenamer bard? I know that they would suck, and be useless, but in a roleplay only game, imagine the possibilities! And if I'm wrong, and it would be a little better than a plain truenamer, how would you make it work?

Assuming you took out the Spellcasting to add Truenaming*, but left the rest the same, it would only be slightly weaker than a normal Bard.
Quite useful overall actually.


*Not sure how you would adjust it, as presumably Truenaming is "9th spell level equivalent", and Bards only get up to 6th.

[Wyntonian]

Honestly, I'd just give it the full truenaming instead of spellcasting. Key it off charisma instead, and fix those little stupid mistakes, and you got a halfway decent class.

[AdamT]

Truenameing is "9th spell level equivalent" is true in as much as bab +20 is "9th spell level equivalent". As a gm I'd have no issue with someone switching out truenameing for bard spells. Sure, you'd get maximum abilities in truenameing, but I do not believe that it would be even as powerful as regular bard casting.

[Saintheart]

If you want the truenaming flavour with none of the suck, take Words of Creation from BoED. It's used to pump the hell out of Inspire Courage, but some of the feat's other uses include using the "true name" of an opponent to their disadvantage.

[eggs]

Conceptually, what's the difference between a Truenamer/Bard and a Bard with ranks in Perform (Oratory)? Bards even have that "no silent spells" quirk.

If you're just in it for the concept, this is what a Words of Creation bard is (with Sublime Chord for Planar Binding access, it even gets to use an ability specifically called Truenaming).

As far as mixing the two, both classes have quadratic progressions which make each level more valuable than the last, so multiclassing between them is a pretty bad deal.

If you actually want to mix Bard and Truenamer mechanics, a casting-heavy bard build with Truespeech Training and a couple of the Truename spells known could give you a couple semi-useful powers without taking much away from the character's power.

[grarrrg]

Truenameing is "9th spell level equivalent" is true in as much as bab +20 is "9th spell level equivalent". As a gm I'd have no issue with someone switching out truenameing for bard spells. Sure, you'd get maximum abilities in truenameing, but I do not believe that it would be even as powerful as regular bard casting.

I am assuming the Truenamer class would still exist, in that case, giving the Bard full access to Truenaming would be strictly better than straight Truenamer, which is why it should be toned down somehow.

If, on the other hand, you want to Combine the two into a new class (and thereby replace the Truenamer), then yeah, go ahead and give it full Truenaming.

[Flickerdart]

I am assuming the Truenamer class would still exist, in that case, giving the Bard full access to Truenaming would be strictly better than straight Truenamer, which is why it should be toned down somehow.
No. Truenamer is rubbish, and needs to be improved dramatically. Pulling other things down to match its awfulness is decidedly the wrong way to go about it.

[grarrrg]

No. Truenamer is rubbish, and needs to be improved dramatically. Pulling other things down to match its awfulness is decidedly the wrong way to go about it.

:smallsigh: You are missing my point.

If there is a "Bardnamer" class AND a Truenamer class, then the Bardnamer SHOULD BE WEAKER at Truenaming than the Truenamer. Any/All improvements to Truenaming would apply to both classes. But if you are going to have TWO classes, one of which is "Truenaming only" and the other which is "Truenaming plus performance and stuff" then it stands to reason that the specialist class should be better at it.


If the Truenamer is done away with, then the Bardnamer would be the only one with Truenaming and any improvements would be applied only to the Bardnamer.

[Flickerdart]

:smallsigh: You are missing my point.

If there is a "Bardnamer" class AND a Truenamer class, then the Bardnamer SHOULD BE WEAKER at Truenaming than the Truenamer. Any/All improvements to Truenaming would apply to both classes. But if you are going to have TWO classes, one of which is "Truenaming only" and the other which is "Truenaming plus performance and stuff" then it stands to reason that the specialist class should be better at it.


If the Truenamer is done away with, then the Bardnamer would be the only one with Truenaming and any improvements would be applied only to the Bardnamer.
I'm not missing your point. I just happen to disagree with it. If there is a Truenamer and a Bardnamer, and the Bardnamer is better, then the Truenamer should be improved to match.

FYI, since it appears you have never actually read the Truenamer class, it's not "Truenaming only" by any means. It's just that the stuff it gets is not very good, and needs to be better.

[AdamT]

:smallsigh: You are missing my point.

If there is a "Bardnamer" class AND a Truenamer class, then the Bardnamer SHOULD BE WEAKER at Truenaming than the Truenamer. Any/All improvements to Truenaming would apply to both classes. But if you are going to have TWO classes, one of which is "Truenaming only" and the other which is "Truenaming plus performance and stuff" then it stands to reason that the specialist class should be better at it.


If the Truenamer is done away with, then the Bardnamer would be the only one with Truenaming and any improvements would be applied only to the Bardnamer.

I think both of ya'll are saying the same thing... that the truenamer sucks. When I said that earlier about combining them, the intent was that the "bardnamer" would replace the truenamer, because, in my campaigns, no one has ever had any interest in truenamers.

I have in the past had a player that removed bard spells and used the totem crafting stuff from that old elves of evermeet book. Not as powerful, but worked great, and the bard as a base makes those weak forms of magic that sound cool into really cool concepets that are fun to play.

[Story Time]

Conceptually, what's the difference between a Truenamer/Bard and a Bard with ranks in Perform (Oratory)?

The difference is that bards can slur as much as they want on stage and still give a better performance at Level Fifteen. :smalltongue:



There was a truenamer bard? I know that they would suck, and be useless, but in a roleplay only game, imagine the possibilities! And if I'm wrong, and it would be a little better than a plain truenamer, how would you make it work?

I'm sorry. A role-play only game? No mechanics? No dice rolls? This confuses me.

True-Name Theory:
Role-play only or not, the biggest problem a home-brewer faces is that True-naming is an exact art. It functions with Intelligence for a reason. Charisma 'isn't supposed to' function in the same medium as true-naming. Now, it might be possible to have a class that is so charismatic that the Universe listens to them and makes things happen, but that's not too differently flavored than the traditional bard.

True-namers use words to alter reality around them. True-namers should there-fore be able to produce exact results. Bards? Bards could end up getting what-ever response the Universe felt like giving at the time. They should have far less ability to use true-names than a real true-namer. Just as an example, there's a difference between some-one talented at singing and some-one who knows how to read music and follow exact directions. The talented person could probably perform respectably well. The educated musician's performance would be superior due to the understanding of the nuances in the music even if their base talent is naturally less.

...True-namers use an utterance level progression similar to those of bards. That's neat, but the similarity ends there. It is theoretically possible to flavor the true-namer class as required to use certain tones and cadence as well as diction. But to be frankly honest, removing the mechanical aspects of the true-namer class should make them playable.

...may-be not competent or better than others, but playable in the late game stage.