Mystic Theurge Question

[Cranthis]

Would going Favored soul x/ Sorcerer X be a decent combination for Mystic theurge? You would get decent charisma synergy. You would definitely have to focus your spells for each class, but still, I think this combo might work out.

[Sith_Happens]

Would going Favored soul x/ Sorcerer X be a decent combination for Mystic theurge? You would get decent charisma synergy. You would definitely have to focus your spells for each class, but still, I think this combo might work out.

I'd say it's about as comparable to an Archivist/Wizard/Mystic Theurge as a Sorcerer is to a Wizard in the first place.

[Cranthis]

I'd say it's about as comparable to an Archivist/Wizard/Mystic Theurge as a Sorcerer is to a Wizard in the first place.

We all know Wizard > Sorcerer. I'm not talking about that though, am I?

[Pilo]

When you will reach level 8 you will be Favored soul 4/ Sorcerer 4, which is quite weak, and you will only have three level 2 spells.

A rogue with UMD and a few wands could do the same and more.

At level 20, if you put the same caster level in each branch, you will cast as a 15 level sorcerer and a 15 level Favored soul, so no level 8 spells.

You will get a better charisma synergy by taking the leadership feat to get a cleric pet and going full sorcerer.

Or use planar binding to get an outsider with cleric or druid casting.

[Cranthis]

That is true. Hmmm. I am sure there is a way to use Favored Soul/ Sorcerer for a good build.

[HunterOfJello]

Depends. If you don't use tricks, it's much worse. If you do use tricks, it's much better.

~

Sorcerer/Favored Soul is quite a bit worse than Wizard/Archivist for use with Mystic Theurge because of the spell level delay for spontaneous casters.

A level 10 character using Sorc/FS compared to Wiz/Arch will look like this:

Sorcerer casting level 6
Favored Soul casting level 6

Wizard casting level 8
Archivist casting level 8

You would be the spellcasting equivalent of a level 12 character instead of a level 16 character.

~

The combination wouldn't be bad if you used the Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell trick.

Then you could be a Sorcerer 2/Favored Soul 1/Mystic Theurge X. Mystic Theurge only requires level 4 to enter, so you could enter with 3 levels from the two classes since versatile spellcaster lets you cast higher level spells and Heigten Spell specifically defines spells cast by it as that being at an appropriately higher casting level.

~

My favorite Sorcerer/Favored Soul build is to play a Sharn 4/Mystic Theurge X. They are found in Anauroch - The Empire of Shade. They have 4 RHD and a +5 LA, but they cast spells as a Sorcerer 6/Favored Soul 6 and have tons of awesome features. They're probably worse cheese than the Versatile Spellcaster + Heigthen Spell trick, but I will definitely play a Sharn in a game some day!

[Cranthis]

I like that Versatile spellcaster, heighten spell trick, but I don't see how that makes you able to cast the required divine spells.

[Sith_Happens]

We all know Wizard > Sorcerer. I'm not talking about that though, am I?

You sort of are. There's nothing particularly special about Favored Soul/Sorcerer as compared to other Theurge combinations, therefore spontaneous Theurge is to prepared Theurge as Sorcerer is to Wizard. Which answers your question of "How good a combination would it be?"

[HunterOfJello]

I like that Versatile spellcaster, heighten spell trick, but I don't see how that makes you able to cast the required divine spells.



Heighten Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. .

A Heigthened (+1) Charm Person spell is actually a level 2 spell. It doesn't just take a higher level slot, it actually is a higher level spell. You use Versatile Spellcaster to sacrifice two level 1 spells to cast one of your spells known with the +1 metamagic version of Heighten Spell. That creates a 2nd level spell that you cast. Therefore, you can cast 2nd level spells for both spontaneous casting classes.

Note that I've only written one interpretation of the feats mentioned. The "effective" part can also be interpreted differently and many DMs wouldn't allow that combo. Mystic Theurge requires 6 skill ranks to enter, so you can't enter it before level 4. That's why I wrote Sorc 2/FS 1. You could also do Sorc 1/FS 2. It's your choice. The first level should probably be in FS since it has a d8 hit die. That could make the difference in your choice between the two for which you take more levels in, although I feel that Sorcerer is an inherently superior class and worth more levels in than FS.

[Cranthis]

But since you couldn't cast 2nd level spells from Favored soul anyways, that wouldn't work. you could only put your arcane spells as the higher level.

[HunterOfJello]

But since you couldn't cast 2nd level spells from Favored soul anyways, that wouldn't work. you could only put your arcane spells as the higher level.

Favored Soul is a spontaneous casting class. It alone would qualify for both feats. Versatile Spellcaster works with all spells, both arcane and divine. I'm not sure why you're thinking that.


VERSATILE SPELLCASTER
You can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell one
level higher.
Prerequisite: Ability to spontaneously cast spells.
Benefi t: You can use two spell slots of the same level to
cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example,
a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell
slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

[Felyndiira]

I like that Versatile spellcaster, heighten spell trick, but I don't see how that makes you able to cast the required divine spells.

Heighten Spell works for both divine spells and arcane spells :).
RoD's text on Versatile Spellcaster also does not distinguish between divine or arcane, so by RAW taking that feat would allow it to apply for both the favored soul and the sorcerer.

Of course, it's probably not RAI, but it hasn't been errata'd as far as I know. Versatile spellcaster also has a bunch of other silly interpretations that are RAW legal, such as the ability to sacrifice two divine soul slots for a higher-level sorcerer spell or being able to learn a 9th level spell with the extra spell feat regardless of character level.

EDIT: Also, just as a random point of curiosity, by RAW:
Clerics and druids also qualify for versatile spellcaster tricks due to their ability to spontaneously cast cure/inflict/ACF domain/SNA.
Wizards do not naturally qualify for versatile spellcaster, but if you can meet the prerequisites using another class (such as the aforementioned cleric), a wizard benefits from it due to the feat not specifically specifying "spontaneous spell slots" for its effect.
Thus, Cleric 1/Wizard 2/MT should be RAW legal.

[blazinghand]

But since you couldn't cast 2nd level spells from Favored soul anyways, that wouldn't work. you could only put your arcane spells as the higher level.

You can cast 2nd-level sells from a Favored Soul using this trick, as a Favored Soul is a Spontaneous Spellcaster.

Edit: Man, I'm soooooo slow

[HunterOfJello]

Heighten Spell works for both divine spells and arcane spells :).
RoD's text on Versatile Spellcaster also does not distinguish between divine or arcane, so by RAW taking that feat would allow it to apply for both the favored soul and the sorcerer.

Of course, it's probably not RAI, but it hasn't been errata'd as far as I know. Versatile spellcaster also has a bunch of other silly interpretations that are RAW legal, such as the ability to sacrifice two divine soul slots for a higher-level sorcerer spell or being able to learn a 9th level spell with the extra spell feat regardless of character level.

or my favorite:

Sacrifice 2 prepared wizard spells to cast any spell that your wizard "knows". And because your wizard's "spells known" are quite specifically every spell in his spellbook, he can now sacrifice two prepared 1st level spells to cast any 2nd level spell in his entire spellbook. Yay!

[Cranthis]

Ohhhh I get it. You guys are doing my favorite thing: Taking advantage of vague text! Haha, excellent. It took me a second to understand (been up for awhile) but I get it now.

I still have an issue though. You wouldn't know any 2nd level divine spells, so you still couldn't do this. You have to know the spell for heighten spell to work. Explain how it gets around this.

[Felyndiira]

A heightened level 1 divine spell counts as a level 2 divine spell.

EDIT: Also, if versatile spellcaster is too cheesy, there are also two other early entry methods that I know of:


Earth Spell: A spell that is heightened counts as +1 spell level in addition to the slot it has been heightened to. Thus, you can heighten a level 0 spell to use a level 1 slot, and it now counts as a level 2 spell. You can do this on both the arcane and divine side, which grants you earliest possible entry into MT.
Sanctum Spell: A no adjustment metamagic that gives spells +1 effective spell level while in your sanctum, and -1 if not. This means that conditionally, you can cast level 1 spells as level 2 spells. You can also do this on both sides, which grants you earliest possible entry on MT.

[blazinghand]

Ohhhh I get it. You guys are doing my favorite thing: Taking advantage of vague text! Haha, excellent. It took me a second to understand (been up for awhile) but I get it now.

I still have an issue though. You wouldn't know any 2nd level divine spells, so you still couldn't do this. You have to know the spell for heighten spell to work. Explain how it gets around this.

You don't need to know a 2nd-level divine spell, you just need to be able to cast a 2nd-level divine spell, like, say, a Heightened Cure Light Wounds, which you can do with Versatile Spellcaster. This spell counts as a 2nd-level spell, therefore you "can cast 2nd-level divine spells" as is required to take levels in that class.

[Cranthis]

Excellent. This is perfect.

[Cranthis]

Man, now that I see how easy that was to figure out, I wish I wasn't tired right now, I would have seen it first post. Sorry for all the trouble, but thanks for all the help!

[etrpgb]

If your DM is reasonable ask him to change the requirements as:


Requirements
To qualify to become a mystic theurge, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Skills
Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks.

Spells
Able to cast divine and arcane spells.
Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells OR 2nd-level arcane spells.


So the class is actually usable without tricks.
At this point you can go Wizard 19/Archivist 11, Sorcerer 19/Shugenja 11 or similar.

[blazinghand]

Although this is RAW basically legal you should definitely talk to your DM before doing this or he might figuratively explode.

[Felyndiira]

If your DM is reasonable ask him to change the requirements as:

So the class is actually usable without tricks.
At this point you can go Wizard 19/Archivist 11, Sorcerer 19/Shugenja 11 or similar.

This would be quite a bit more powerful than the with-trick entry, since all of them requires the character to burn at least two feats while the modifications would remove this requirement. Both of those combinations are also possible using any of the three cheeses that were mentioned in this thread (although with Wizard/Archivist, you will need some ACF to give you limited spontaneous casting on the wizard side; earth spell and sanctum spell still works normally).

Also, you can always try to pester your GM for a legacy weapon, then go into legacy champion to reach Arcane Class 19/Divine Class 18 :smallsmile:/

[Cranthis]

Also, you can always try to pester your GM for a legacy weapon, then go into legacy champion to reach Arcane Class 19/Divine Class 18 :smallsmile:/

Hmm that interests me even more, since it will net me higher casting for both as opposed to just one, as most things are likely to go. Also, my dm thinks himself very bad at rebalancing things, despite the fact that we have informed otherwise. So he wouldn't be up for the adjustment. While heighten spell may be a weak feat, versatile spellcaster is not, so I believe it is worth it. Besides, I take flaws, and would probably be human, so I definitely have feats to work with haha.

[Cranthis]

Unfortunately, after looking at it, Legacy champion wouldnt work with Mystic theurge, as it is still limited by the amount of levels it has.

[Felyndiira]

You're right, I forgot about the 8/10 progression on legacy champion. For a standard MT entry you'd end up with Wizard 17/Cleric 16 in place of Wiz 19/Clr 11, but for a spontaneous caster losing 9th level spells is never worth continuing the dual progression.

[Cranthis]

Not only that, I don't think it can be applied to a class you have maxed out anyways. But if it can, I might definitely consider changing to Wiz/Cler for this.

[Felyndiira]

It may or may not; the wording on the ability does not explicitly say either, and it's very popular on the optimization boards to use it for various shenanigans (progress Hellfire Warlock beyond its intended 3 class levels, get every 9th level maneuver in the book, etc.)

Whether you can get away with it depends on the DM in question.

[Cranthis]

Very true. I believe my DM would.

[LTwerewolf]

Not only that, I don't think it can be applied to a class you have maxed out anyways. But if it can, I might definitely consider changing to Wiz/Cler for this.

Why not start taking levels in it before you max out MT then? After you max IT out, then go back to MT.

[panaikhan]

There's a build on D&DWiki that weedles out some more progression by managing to qualify for Mystic Theurge and Arcane Heirophant.

[Grim Reader]

Id just like to add that in the twilight days of 3.5, the Heighten/Versatile combo was specifically ruled legal for early PrC entry by WotC. Same time as Practiced Spellcaster was ruled illegal for it.

While the reasoning on the Practiced Spellcaster ruling was unusually poor, I think what they were trying to do was give spont casters a boost compared to prepared ones. So marks for that anyway.

[Spuddles]

Id just like to add that in the twilight days of 3.5, the Heighten/Versatile combo was specifically ruled legal for early PrC entry by WotC. Same time as Practiced Spellcaster was ruled illegal for it.

While the reasoning on the Practiced Spellcaster ruling was unusually poor, I think what they were trying to do was give spont casters a boost compared to prepared ones. So marks for that anyway.

Practiced Spellcaster, or Precocious Spellcaster?

[Yuki Akuma]

Id just like to add that in the twilight days of 3.5, the Heighten/Versatile combo was specifically ruled legal for early PrC entry by WotC. Same time as Practiced Spellcaster was ruled illegal for it.

Where was it ruled illegal?

If it was in the FAQ, ignore it. The FAQ gets things wrong all the time.

[Telonius]

If you're really set on Sorcerer as a component, there's always Kobold shenanigans. Dragonwrought/Loredrake/Draconic Reservoir/Draconic Rite of Passage/Greater Draconic Rite of Passage nets you three free sorcerer levels (to make up for the lost ones while qualifying for Theurge). It's also recommended that the player have proficiency in helmets, as DMGs will likely be flying your way.

[eggs]

The Knowledge ranks are the tricky part. I think Education (a Forgotten Realms regional feat) is required.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wizard 1/Druid 3/Mysthic Theurge 4/Arcane Hierphant 10/Mysthic Theurge +2 with Precocious Spellcaster), gets Wizard 17 and Druid 19 casting.

Edit: Education is also in the Eberron Campaign setting IIRC.

[only1doug]

With wizard / cleric / mystic theurge you can easily get into true necromancer, its not ideal as it drops another caster level from each side at the beginning and again at mid level (L1 and 6 are arcane only, L2 and 7 are divine only)

[HunterOfJello]

I forgot to throw in an Ur-Priest build.

Sorcerer 5/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 3 gets the spellcasting equivalent of a Sorcerer 8 and Cleric 9 (with slightly fewer spells on the cleric side).

[eggs]

Or there's Bard 1/Favored Soul 4/FS PrCs 5/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9 with Alternate Source spell for dual-spontaneous Charisma 9s from the two major lists. Able Learner and high-skill PrCs will probably be needed for prereqs.

[Urpriest]

Or there's Bard 1/Favored Soul 4/FS PrCs 5/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9 with Alternate Source spell for dual-spontaneous Charisma 9s from the two major lists. Able Learner and high-skill PrCs will probably be needed for prereqs.

Eh, with the amount of cheese you need to wring arcane 3's out of that build to qualify for Sublime Chord you could qualify early with real casters.