Enormous staff?

[Uhtred]

So, my buddy's running a campaign for the first time, and I have to be a Monk. I've complained about that before, relented, found cool feats, cool weapons, good suggestions. That was a different thread.

He decided for a little bit that he'd impose weapon permits on anything dealing higher than d6 damage, allowing guards to stop people on the streets with weapons and demand to see their permits, allowing guards to stop people entering the city and demand they buy the city's weapon permits and register with the guards who they are and what weapons they carry, extra cost for exotic weapons, high damage weapons, yadda yadda yadda.

Long story short, I cut down most of my weapons loadout to just my quarterstaff, 1d6/1d6. But I paid the money and had it equipped with an oil chamber, so I can employ magic oils on the staff quickly and easily. My first thought was Oil of Shillelagh, as the quarterstaff is nonmagical. As a lvl 5 Monk, it would then deal higher damage than my unarmed strike. We just had a sorcerer join the party. A sorcerer capable of casting Mighty Wallop. Would it stack with Oil of Shillelagh, or is this another case of similar magical effects not stacking?

[Sith_Happens]

He decided for a little bit that he'd impose weapon permits on anything dealing higher than d6 damage,

Does that include your unarmed strikes past level 3?:smalltongue:

[Uhtred]

I asked that exact question. He said that if I didn't bring up to the guards that I was a Monk, then no, I did not. But if I did, then, like US Army Rangers and SEAL's, I am considered a deadly individual (especially) unarmed, and have to sign THAT registry and get THOSE permits. And Monks are Lawful. Gorrammit.

[Curmudgeon]

The "as if it were two size categories larger" part of Shillelagh will overlap, rather than stack, with Mighty Wallop's effective size increase, so that latter spell will be useless.

[Uhtred]

The "as if it were two size categories larger" part of Shillelagh will overlap, rather than stack, with Mighty Wallop's effective size increase, so that latter spell will be useless.

Dang. So best to just stick with Shillelagh? Would Enlarge Weapon from Complete Scoundrel do anything? Or is that a caster-only personal weapon spell?

[Sith_Happens]

I asked that exact question. He said that if I didn't bring up to the guards that I was a Monk, then no, I did not. But if I did, then, like US Army Rangers and SEAL's, I am considered a deadly individual (especially) unarmed, and have to sign THAT registry and get THOSE permits. And Monks are Lawful. Gorrammit.

I assume (or at least hope) that that applies to the casters as well?


Dang. So best to just stick with Shillelagh? Would Enlarge Weapon from Complete Scoundrel do anything? Or is that a caster-only personal weapon spell?

Enlarge Weapon is a touch range spell, so it can be cast on other peoples' weapons. It also does "stack" with Shillelagh, insofar as Enlarge Weapon is a real size increase while Shillelagh is a virtual one.

[TuggyNE]

I assume (or at least hope) that that applies to the casters as well?

Sure, they have to leave their staffs at the gate, which totally cripples their power.

[Krazzman]

So, my buddy's running a campaign for the first time, and I have to be a Monk. I've complained about that before, relented, found cool feats, cool weapons, good suggestions. That was a different thread.

Aside from being his buddy... why are you "ok" with being forced to play a Monk?



He decided for a little bit that he'd impose weapon permits on anything dealing higher than d6 damage, allowing guards to stop people on the streets with weapons and demand to see their permits, allowing guards to stop people entering the city and demand they buy the city's weapon permits and register with the guards who they are and what weapons they carry, extra cost for exotic weapons, high damage weapons, yadda yadda yadda.

This sounds like a pretty dumb rule that seems familiar... oh right that's from the DSA setting... it was annoying then and it is annoying now...

Edit: sort of noticed how offensive this sounds. It will go on your nerves pretty quick. Imagine your are trying to sell a Longsword that you found because you need 7 gold "quickly". But afraid you have to buy a permit to carry that thing into town for [imaginary gold price].
At least it went pretty fast from "oh.. ok weird" to "this s****".


Long story short, I cut down most of my weapons loadout to just my quarterstaff, 1d6/1d6. But I paid the money and had it equipped with an oil chamber, so I can employ magic oils on the staff quickly and easily. My first thought was Oil of Shillelagh, as the quarterstaff is nonmagical. As a lvl 5 Monk, it would then deal higher damage than my unarmed strike. We just had a sorcerer join the party. A sorcerer capable of casting Mighty Wallop. Would it stack with Oil of Shillelagh, or is this another case of similar magical effects not stacking?

Will you be able to THF instead of TWFing with the Quarterstaff? If yes... ok. If no swap it for a Cudgel.
Additionally: the main source of damage shouldn't come from the damagedice but from the bonuses you can stack on.

[Alleran]

Do you have to be a monk mechanically, or would he let you get away with something like an unarmed swordsage?

[Krazzman]

Do you have to be a monk mechanically, or would he let you get away with something like an unarmed swordsage?

Or how many levels of Monk are you forced to take?

[Darrin]

Sure, they have to leave their staffs at the gate, which totally cripples their power.

"Surely you don't mean to force an old man to part with his walking stick?" (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=922)

(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)

[Rubik]

I'd look into monk 2/psywar X with Tashalatora, myself. Or just psywar X with Tashalatora since monk 0 can still stack with psywar for the purposes of the feat (unless you want evasion, of course).

Then two-hand the quarterstaff with your massive Strength score and laugh at everyone who thinks a 1d8 weapon is worth enough more than a d6 to warrant paying fees for the privilege.

Or just grow a bite and claw attacks. Or Metamorphosis into a hydra for lulz. And don't forget the Hammer power to add +1d8 to your unarmed strikes!

[Telonius]

If you want to be a pain in the butt about it, Drunken Master 5 means basically the whole kingdom has to be registered as a weapon...

[danzibr]

"Surely you don't mean to force an old man to part with his walking stick?" (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=922)

(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)
Beat me to it.

[Rubik]

Also, look into monk alternative class features. Chaos monk, for one. Their version of flurry is superior to regular flurry because you get more (albeit a random number of) attacks, and you can be Chaotic and tell say, "Screw the rules; I have money chaos!" There's also one that grants invisibility out there somewhere. I'm sure there's a guide to it on the internet in one place or another.

You should also consider taking the Ancestral Relic feat, from the Book of Erotic Exalted Deeds (after all, what is your body but a gift from your ancestors?), as well as a necklace of natural weaponry, from Savage Species, both with lots of unusual enhancements for your unarmed strikes, such as ghost touch (which turns your whole body incorporeal as a free action and back at will), throwing (which allows you to body-slam things from 50' away), and distance (for making that 100' away).

Enjoy all the insane tricks you can pull as a result.

[Sith_Happens]

Stuff.

*ahem*:


So, my buddy's running a campaign for the first time, and I have to be a Monk. I've complained about that before, relented, found cool feats, cool weapons, good suggestions. That was a different thread.

(Semi-)on topic, I would definitely make sure that casters are included on the "must register as still-deadly-without-weapons persons" list. Spells tend to deal rather more than 1d6.

[ericgrau]

Casters can turn in their spell component pouches and holy symbols. Won't stop everything, but it will stop most spells especially the boom/kill ones. And they can register on top of that.

[Rubik]

Casters can turn in their spell component pouches and holy symbols. Won't stop everything, but it will stop most spells especially the boom/kill ones. And they can register on top of that.*Warforged psion with Psionic Suggestion*

"This is not the droid you're looking for."

[Uhtred]

I assume (or at least hope) that that applies to the casters as well?
Enlarge Weapon is a touch range spell, so it can be cast on other peoples' weapons. It also does "stack" with Shillelagh, insofar as Enlarge Weapon is a real size increase while Shillelagh is a virtual one.

I brought up casters, he said their police force has other ways of tracking/dealing with spellcasters, but that yes, there was a registry and whey wouldn't be at any more of an advantage than our Dwarf fighter getting carded all the time for his Large-size Dwarven Warpike.


Aside from being his buddy... why are you "ok" with being forced to play a Monk?
This sounds like a pretty dumb rule that seems familiar... oh right that's from the DSA setting... it was annoying then and it is annoying now...
Edit: sort of noticed how offensive this sounds. It will go on your nerves pretty quick. Imagine your are trying to sell a Longsword that you found because you need 7 gold "quickly". But afraid you have to buy a permit to carry that thing into town for .
At least it went pretty fast from "oh.. ok weird" to "this s****".
Will you be able to THF instead of TWFing with the Quarterstaff? If yes... ok. If no swap it for a Cudgel.
Additionally: the main source of damage shouldn't come from the damagedice but from the bonuses you can stack on.

I'm ok with being forced to play a Monk because I am an admitted Optimizer, and if I was an Artificer or a Cleric I would break his game. Just how it is. I was angry about being neutered at first, but all that emo's been covered in a thread titled "Twin Hooks," if you're hungry for details.
Also, I spouted something similar to the "It was annoying then, it's annoying now" bit. That permits and registrations would make the game clunky and tedious for me, personally, since the rest of the party is True Neutral/Chaotic while I am Lawful, they get to Forge permits and sell unregistered loot at Black Markets while I legitimately cannot condone either of these things. He relented about the permits because he realized it excluded me from a lot of gameplay and apologized. He is a new DM, so some slack was cut.
And I was just going to use the staff while in Flurry. The +1 will kill the Flurry penalty completely, which is darned handy.


Do you [i]have to be a monk mechanically, or would he let you get away with something like an unarmed swordsage?

Or how many levels of Monk are you forced to take?

Nope, five levels Core Monk to start, no ACF's, 85% of my feats from Core. I got that taken down to 50%, and counted my Monk bonus feats in that total. So all my Monk feats are core, my character and human feats, not so much.


"Surely you don't mean to force an old man to part with his walking stick?" (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=922)
(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)

He specifically quoted this comic strip, WHICH I SHOWED HIM, as shenanigans he would go to all lengths to avoid, and dropped the minimum damage die down to 1d4. It was kinda a jerk move, but, as mentioned, he killed the whole permit concept.


If you want to be a pain in the butt about it, Drunken Master 5 means basically the whole kingdom has to be registered as a weapon...

He asked me about Improvised Weapons and how they worked in D&D. When I brought up the Drunken Master prestige class, it was banned right then.


Also, look into monk alternative class features. Chaos monk, for one. Their version of flurry is superior to regular flurry because you get more (albeit a random number of) attacks, and you can be Chaotic and tell say, "Screw the rules; I have money chaos!" There's also one that grants invisibility out there somewhere. I'm sure there's a guide to it on the internet in one place or another.
You should also consider taking the Ancestral Relic feat, from the Book of Erotic Exalted Deeds (after all, what is your body but a gift from your ancestors?), as well as a necklace of natural weaponry, from Savage Species, both with lots of unusual enhancements for your unarmed strikes, such as ghost touch (which turns your whole body incorporeal as a free action and back at will), throwing (which allows you to body-slam things from 50' away), and distance (for making that 100' away).
Enjoy all the insane tricks you can pull as a result.

All of that sounds amazing. And expensive.

[Uhtred]

*Warforged psion with Psionic Suggestion*

"This is not the droid you're looking for."

No Psionics at all, no ToB, no Incarnum. H doesn't understand those systems, and as a father of two, one an infant and one a toddler, he doesn't have time to learn any new casting/pseudocasting/martial shenanigans systems before we start play next month.

[Allanimal]

He asked me about Improvised Weapons and how they worked in D&D. When I brought up the Drunken Master prestige class, it was banned right then.


I am speechless. That's far from overpowered, and the sheer flavorful fun of a drunken master... To be banned because of an extra 1d4? Unbelievable. Maybe at 1st level that 1d4 makes a difference, but at 5th? No way.

[Keld Denar]

Silly man, it's not the size of the staff that count, but how much you power attack with it!

[Rubik]

All of that sounds amazing. And expensive.Carry around a portable altar and you can sacrifice buildings and such at night. Buildings are REALLY super-expensive according to the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, as are earthworks and such (so sacrifice that moat!). Also, dungeons.

And the necklace costs exactly the same as a magic weapon (sans the base weapon cost).

So, y'know, not any more than a fighter would spend on a bow and sword combo (except you can leech money from your surroundings).

[Rubik]

No Psionics at all, no ToB, no Incarnum. H doesn't understand those systems, and as a father of two, one an infant and one a toddler, he doesn't have time to learn any new casting/pseudocasting/martial shenanigans systems before we start play next month.Well, psionics is basically exactly like spellcasting except it has better (not more powerful) spells, uses spell points and augmentation, has a few fewer limits, a few more limiters, and psionic focus.

Detailing the differences in the systems might take, I dunno, two-three paragraphs, barring fluff.


If you want to be a pain in the butt about it, Drunken Master 5 means basically the whole kingdom has to be registered as a weapon...Add hulking hurler and suddenly the kingdom itself needs to be registered.

[Krazzman]

How does your build look then?

And why didn't you stay with the Twin Hooks? (I mean you got pretty good advice in that thread afair...)

On another note... why would you break his game with a cleric? I mean would you do it(on purpose) or would it be an accident?

What I think is sort of a "huh? :smallconfused:" in this: You have to be a core only monk with no ACF and when mentioned a jokingly comic or a certain cool fluffy not overpowered prestige class got both things banned? Do you have such a bad reputation or is he overly paranoid?

[Uhtred]

How does your build look then?

And why didn't you stay with the Twin Hooks? (I mean you got pretty good advice in that thread afair...)

On another note... why would you break his game with a cleric? I mean would you do it(on purpose) or would it be an accident?

What I think is sort of a "huh? :smallconfused:" in this: You have to be a core only monk with no ACF and when mentioned a jokingly comic or a certain cool fluffy not overpowered prestige class got both things banned? Do you have such a bad reputation or is he overly paranoid?

I'm a Human Monk 5, built as a Stunner. Stunning Fist + Sickening + Weakening + Pharaoh's Fist with Stunning Master next level, so then I'll be able to stun through the staff (or hooks, now that permits are off the table.) Ki straps, Monk's Belt, Amulet of Mighty Fists, Bracers of Armor.

Twin Hooks are 1d8 weapons AND exotic AND are technically double weapons, so the fees really stacked up. I wanted to simplify since he doesn't have much gold, so downgraded to the staff and figured I'd let Shillelagh and my stunning feats do the rest.

I built a Cleric once in a game we were both in, and yes, ended up breaking it. Completely accidental, with minimum cheese, but when you can end a BBEG in a suprise round with one well-chosen spell, your reputation precedes you. And he knows I read splat books and optimize for fun, and he's played campaigns I've run that contained gleefully optimized templated class leveled monsters and enemies, so he knows what I can do given freedom. This is his first campaign he's ever run, he wants me involved because he's one of my best friends. But he also doesn't want me dominating like he knows I'm capable of doing. He OK'd Shintao Monk from Oriental Adventures, which was nice, but I think his thought process was that if this was an urban campaign and I was capable of using doors and stools and unicycles as weapons then I would be swiftly undercutting his weapon permit system he was so in love with. Now that the permits are gone, Drunken Master is probably allowed again, but I like the flavor of the Shintao Monk more.

[Deth Muncher]

Offtopic: I know you've mentioned that your pal doesn't have the time to learn a new set of rules...but you do. Does he not trust you to make good life choices and not cheese things out?

On-topic: Four things.

1. Being Lawful does not mean you follow every country's laws. Being Lawful means you follow the rules when you think they are just, and you don't when you think they aren't. There have been many a "Paladin Falls" thread on that subject, but the moral of this is that if your character thinks it's stupid he's got to cough up money just to be allowed into a town because his fists are deadly weapons, then your character doesn't follow that law. There are many arguments you can use for that in game, if you'd like me to go through them.

2. I'm also echoing the "I really hope there's a mage permit" for this, because I feel like mages are a lot more deadly than normal dudes with weapons. (Siege weaponry possibly notwithstanding.)

3. In Cityscape, there is a spell called Peacebond. It's a level 1 spell, so literally any caster employed by the city could cast it, and it would be a fairly cheap magic item to include in all guards' basic kits, if the society was advanced enough to have that level of prevalent magic. It basically locks your weapon into its holster - sheathe, belt, whatever. You may want to bring this up to the DM as a possible alternative to the weapons tax - though this obviously doesn't work on fists/mages.

4. How much we talkin' here? I guess this is kind of the most important part - it sounds like your DM, for better of worst, is all about what he wants the story to be, and I'm guessing in the interest of verisimilitude, he wants to add in a mechanically useless but roleplaying-wise flavorful thing to the game, which isn't so terrible. If you've got to cough up a gold piece or two every time you walk into a city for the first time? You'll be fine. If you've got to cough up a substantial amount of money every time you enter a city? Then there's a problem.

EDIT: But apparently he's done away with the permit system as per your last post, so this is all moot.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oil of Brambles also can increase your staff's damage output.

An alternative is to carry around a normal Greatsword. Why? Allow the guards to confiscate it. Because they have confiscated the obvious weapon, they won't even ask if you are a Monk, because what kind of monk carries a Greatsword around?

It's all about Don't Ask, Don't Tell man... it isn't their fault that they never bothered asking if you have any unarmed combat expertise...

[Tantaburs]

Add hulking hurler and suddenly the kingdom itself needs to be registered.

And it would make a great RP Moment.


Guard: Sir i will need to see your license for that sword.
HH: shouldn't the owner of that house need a permit
Guard: Why?
HH: He is living in a weapon
Guard: He is living in a house
HH: *Throws house at Guard*
Guard 2: Issue a permit for all the houses

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, it would be pretty pointless to register casters or confiscate component pouches. They're so cheap, you could have a hundred of them and not dent your WBL significantly at medium levels. Go ahead, try and find them ALL.

Besides, there's this feat, it's called Eschew Materials. Renders confiscation of anything rather obsolete for most spells, including the worst ones you'd never want to see go off in a city.

In fact, there really is nothing you can do to prevent a hostile caster from getting off his first round of magic unless you want to AMF the whole town, and even then, there are ways around it. So it kinda makes registering casters pointless... either he's going to behave himself, or he's going to not behave himself, and there's not a single thing you can do either way. So it would probably be best to not piss him off by inundating him with pointless licenses and registries and such.

[Sith_Happens]

I built a Cleric once in a game we were both in, and yes, ended up breaking it. Completely accidental, with minimum cheese, but when you can end a BBEG in a suprise round with one well-chosen spell, your reputation precedes you.

Okay, now I have to know: What was the BBEG, and which spell was it?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, now I have to know: What was the BBEG, and which spell was it?

Undead and either Holy Word boosted or Undeath To Death, most likely...

[Krazzman]

Sooo... because you had one lucky shot at a BBEG and used some optimized Monsters as DM he thought you would break his campaign if you had free choice?

ToB mechanics can be explained in... I think 10 Sentences? Psionics in a few less, maybe more for metapsionics but still.

As someone said Lawful is practically a widespread definition.
It stands in with Torm. Being LG actually means that you have to rebel against injustice-laws. I was told so too... that a Monk couldn't be greedy and had to be goody-good of goodness the first time I tried to play one... despite being LN. That was the reason for my First monk only having a endless waterskin (which he didn't even knew). While the other two players started with full WBL on level 3 despite being a Monk and a Rogue.
The alignment system isn't that good to be used for any character whatsoever. I prefer the Eberronian Alignment ruling over the others anyway.

To the caster bit. At your level even a lousy 1st level spell deals more than 1d6 or has an effect... what would make this even worse. A Wizard could lob one or two Fireballs around in city for 5d6 dmg each. Or Burning Hands for 5d4. Or sleep against commoners. Or deepslumber. Or or or.. you probably know what other spells you should be wary of. A sorceror could make a small genocide in a town at that level.

Back to your Monk. Now you seem to have a wee bit more leeway and now are able to build a "proper" monk. Good Luck.

[Rejakor]

Carry around a portable altar and you can sacrifice buildings and such at night.


This is the best sentence i've read in a while.

'sacrifice buildings'

oh god yes

crazy LE monk burning down buildings to make his body stronger

I love it

[Rubik]

This is the best sentence i've read in a while.

'sacrifice buildings'

oh god yes

crazy LE monk burning down buildings to make his body stronger

I love itIt's not crazy if it works.