Question about TWF

[Blue1005]

So i have a lvl 13 drow fighter. He has a dex of 20 so he can have all said feats. He is using a bastard sword in his main hand and a scimitar in his off hand. he has TWF, improved TWF and TW defense as feats. how do you figure out attacks per round and penalties? I often shy away from TWF due to this convoluted math but assume all the GITP nerds can help me. I appreciate your help in advance. :smallbiggrin:

[Cranthis]

First of all. you should have taken Oversized twf if you are gonna use something that isn't a light weapon. Scimitars arent considered light. And if you took oversize two weapon fighting, you should just dual wield bastard swords. but anyways. You do your main hand normally with bab. with twf, and itwf, you get 2 attacks with your offhand, at your best bab.

[blazinghand]

If you have TWF and are using 1-H weapons, all your attacks get -4 to hit. You make normal attacks with your main hand weapon (with the -4 penalty).

How many attacks you make with your off-hand depends on your feats. With just TWF, you make one off-hand attack at your normal BAB (plus the -4 penalty). with iTWF, you make one off-hand attack at normal BAB (plus the -4 penalty) and one at normal BAB-5 (plus the -4 penalty). If you have gTWF, you make a third attack at normal BAB-10 (plus the -4 penalty).


with twf, and itwf, you get 2 attacks with your offhand, at your best bab.
This is incorrect. see my explanation above.


As a specific example: you have 11 BAB, TWF, and iTWF, and have 10 strength and are using mundane weapons. You get three attacks with your bastard sword, one at +7, one at +2, and one at -3. You get two attacks with your off-hand scimitar, one at +7, and one at +2.

[HunterOfJello]

I think it's -2 attack for using the Bastard Sword in one hand instead of two and -4 to all attacks for using a one handed weapon in your off hand instead of a light weapon, even though you have TWF.

That would be a -6/-11 main hand and-4/-9 off hand or so for your four attacks.

~

You may not be able to wield a bastard sword in your main hand at all. I don't remember the rules for weapons of larger size than you should be wielding.

If you were using a Long Sword and Kukri your attacks would be -2/-7 and -2/-7.

The damage you're losing is in no way worth the loss in attack. I would change weapons.

[Cranthis]

He wouldn't need to change weapons if he used over size two weapon fighting. This would bring down the penalties to -2/-2 as if using both light weapons.

[HunterOfJello]

He wouldn't need to change weapons if he used over size two weapon fighting. This would bring down the penalties to -2/-2 as if using both light weapons.

Oversized Two Weapon Fighting wouldn't change the fact that he's still using a Bastard Sword without Exotic Weapon Proficiency. I don't think you can even do that, and if you can its an additional -2 to attacks wit the improperly sized weapon. Oversized TWF only effects the off-hand weapon. It's also a waste of 1 (or 2) feats for only a miniscule increase in damage (an average of 1 damage per roll).

A scimitar and kukri or 2 scimitars would be a much better choice and more effective for the character. The absolute best would actually be 2 kukris.

[blazinghand]

Oh, if he doesn't have EWP: Bastard Sword this changes everything. I didn't get that from reading the OP, my bad.

[Cranthis]

Yeah, I also didn't see that he doesn't have EWP: Bastard sword. Well then. Op, how have you ever hit anything?

[Blue1005]

I am proficient with the bastard sword.

As you have been stating the math is CRAZY to figure this out.

[Yuki Akuma]

Congratulations - you picked probably the worst pair of weapons to TWF with.

You probably shouldn't be TWFing as a Fighter anyway - wielding that bastard sword in both hands would be more effective.

[Cranthis]

The math isn't very hard. And while you may be proficient with it, you must have Exotic weapon profiency: bastard sword, to be able to use it as a one handed weapon.

[Blue1005]

Congratulations - you picked probably the worst pair of weapons to TWF with.

You probably shouldn't be TWFing as a Fighter anyway - wielding that bastard sword in both hands would be more effective.

You are probably right. Never really get into TWF because of the F'ed rules.

OK lets do this. IF i could talk to the DM and bet the most hack for my money, still using TWF as a 13 lvl drow, how would you do it? Optimize please.

And being that dex is highest at 20 can I use weapon finesse to get more damage
?

[blazinghand]

You are probably right. Never really get into TWF because of the F'ed rules.

OK lets do this. IF i could talk to the DM and bet the most hack for my money, still using TWF as a 13 lvl drow, how would you do it? Optimize please.

If you want to be a drow and use TWF, you'll want to use something that is good with a larger number of weak attacks, since you won't be power attacking. The typical solution for this is to get precision damage, as a Fighter Sneak Attack Variant or a Rogue. Assuming you mean an ECL 13 Drow, you'll have 11 HD. You can spend 11 of them on Rogue and have 8 BAB. Spend feats on Weapon Finesse, TWF, and iTWF, and you're good to go for dual-wielding Short Swords. With 20 Dex, and +1 Short Swords, it'll look like this:

Full Attack:
Main Hand: +12/+7 Short Sword for 1d6+1 damage
Off Hand: +12/+7 Short Sword for 1d6+1 damage

>Note: 8 BAB + 5 Dex + 1 Enh - 2 for TWF with the TWF Feat and Light Off-Hand = 12, iTWF lets you attack with the off-hand with the same attack bonus for these two attacks.

With sneak attack +5d6 and a flank, you could conceivably do tons of damage. You'll need a good party of course.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, first I'd take Weapon Finesse. Then I'd wield a finesseable one-handed weapon (say, a rapier) in my main hand and a light weapon (any will do) in my off hand.

I'd look into getting some sort of bonus damage per attack - or some way to add your Dex modifier to damage, like the Shadow Blade feat (Tome of Battle).

If you go the Shadow Blade route, I'd also consider taking Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance for the sneak attack.

This may be more feats than you can afford, though. TWFing is highly feat intensive.

Edit: Weapon Finesse doesn't add Dex to damage. It only lets you replace Str with Dex for your attack bonus.

Note that Shadow Blade requires you to take Martial Study for a Shadow Hand maneuver first. Luckily, Martial Study is a Fighter bonus feat (as is Martial Stance).

Also note that Shadow Blade only works with Shadow Hand style weapons - which are daggers, short swords, sais, siangham, unarmed strikes and spiked chains. No rapiers, unfortunately.

[Cranthis]

Weapon finesse applies to an any applicable weapon, not just the ones in the description. So, short swords, scimitars, rapiers, really anything you can imagine having finesse with, and it be realistic. which means losing the bastard sword.

[Yuki Akuma]

Weapon finesse applies to an any applicable weapon, not just the ones in the description. So, short swords, scimitars, rapiers, really anything you can imagine having finesse with, and it be realistic. which means losing the bastard sword.

Weapon Finesse does not apply to scimitars. It only applies to light weapons and weapons that explicitly say they can be used with it.

In core, the only non-light weapons it can be used with are spiked chains, rapiers and whips.

[blazinghand]

Weapon Finesse does not apply to scimitars. It only applies to light weapons and weapons that explicitly say they can be used with it.

In core, the only non-light weapons it can be used with are spiked chains, rapiers and whips.

Yuki's understanding of Weapon Finesse is accurate. As a Drow you will likely be using a Rapier in one hand and a Light Weapon in the off hand, or Light weapons in both hand, if you want to make use of Weapon Finesse.

[Spuddles]

If you have the feats to spare, you may think about using a light shield in your off hand, and bashing with that. Get the bashing property put on it, and pick up improved shield bash. Light shields can be used as light weapons, which means they are finessable.

Getting AC from a shield is actually pretty good, as it stacks with other sources of AC, and multiple sources of AC is more cost efficient than spending a lot on one piece of AC.

Despite what you may hear, AC isn't an all or nothing endeavor, and neglecting your armor class will lead to a short career as an adventurer.

[Cranthis]

I can't remember if it was errata, or something else, but it changed it so that Weapon Finesse can be applied to any appropriate weapon.

[Spuddles]

I can't remember if it was errata, or something else, but it changed it so that Weapon Finesse can be applied to any appropriate weapon.

Sounds like a house rule.

[Cranthis]

It isn't. I remember reading it somewhere, and I know for a fact I read it, that weapon finesse now applies to any appropriate weapon, such as scimitars.

[Yuki Akuma]

It isn't. I remember reading it somewhere, and I know for a fact I read it, that weapon finesse now applies to any appropriate weapon, such as scimitars.

You're misremembering. It doesn't.

[Krazzman]

Drow Swordsage 11 (ECL 13).

Feats:
1: Adaptive Style
3: Weapon Finesse
6: Shadow Blade
9: ???

Maneuvers:
Take the TWFing ones from Tiger Claw school as well as a Stance and a Maneuver from the Shadow Hand school.

A "fine" Tier 3 Character capable of Dualwielding and getting str and dex to damage with the Weapons mentioned in a post above.

A 2 Level Rogue dip or a 2 Level Fighter dip could get you some other stuff.

Rogue 2/Swordsage 9:
1:???
3: Adaptive Style
6: Weapon Finesse
9: Shadow Blade
Same Maneuvers as above.
For example.

Good Luck

(If you are set on "Fighter" a non optimized build would probably go into Tempest [PrC from Complete War... i believe])

@ Crantis and others: not quite there is the weapon property feycraft as there is the property Mithril.

[TuggyNE]

It isn't. I remember reading it somewhere, and I know for a fact I read it, that weapon finesse now applies to any appropriate weapon, such as scimitars.

I have never seen that. Would that it were so. (Although, of course, determining just what an "appropriate" weapon is, if appropriate isn't defined by "has the tag finessable", is non-trivial.)

[Cranthis]

You're misremembering. It doesn't.

After a search, yes, I must be misremembering and it must be a houserule. But certain weapons not being finessable is silly.

Anyways, this isn't what the thread is about, continue on.

[Darrin]

It isn't. I remember reading it somewhere, and I know for a fact I read it, that weapon finesse now applies to any appropriate weapon, such as scimitars.

You may be thinking of Dervish. They get to treat scimitars as light weapons. Play enough Dervish builds, and you may just start thinking of them as light weapons by default.

(Consequently, Oversize TWF is one of the two feats that make Dervish irrelevent. The other one is Travel Devotion.)

[Blue1005]

Yes sticking with fighter because that is the only fighter int he party.

and the drow template i googled did not say +2 LA so it is just a straight 13th level fighter.

[White_Drake]

Clearly, the best choice for a Drow using Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting is to dual wield scimitars. So far as classes, you may want to look into ranger.
I am so sorry, I couldn’t resist.

[Blue1005]

Clearly, the best choice for a Drow using Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting is to dual wield scimitars. So far as classes, you may want to look into ranger.
I am so sorry, I couldn’t resist.

I know when they think of drow the mind goes there... where is the oversize feat found? And IF i duel wield bastards, what is the attack modifier for a half and full round attack. Not to sound retarded, but the math really escapes me, its like abstract art

[Krazzman]

Clearly, the best choice for a Drow using Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting is to dual wield scimitars. So far as classes, you may want to look into ranger.
I am so sorry, I couldn’t resist.

But beware of Lawyers :D (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html)

Edit:
The math is "easy".
TWF and iTWF give you bonus "offhand attacks". Your normal attack routing would be: BaB, BaB-5, BaB-10 (for a 13th level Fighter this would be 13, 8, 3).
Now IF you TWF in that round your Full Attack routine would be:
BaB-TWFmod,BaB-TWFmod, BaB-5-TWFmod, BaB-5-TWFmod and BaB-10-TWFmod.
Assuming a 13th level, 10str Fighter with your weapon set up it would be:
9/9/4/4/-1

Edit2:
Please post your current build here and please mention what part you could change and what is dead set.

[Blue1005]

But beware of Lawyers :D (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html)

Edit:
The math is "easy".
TWF and iTWF give you bonus "offhand attacks". Your normal attack routing would be: BaB, BaB-5, BaB-10 (for a 13th level Fighter this would be 13, 8, 3).
Now IF you TWF in that round your Full Attack routine would be:
BaB-TWFmod,BaB-TWFmod, BaB-5-TWFmod, BaB-5-TWFmod and BaB-10-TWFmod.
Assuming a 13th level, 10str Fighter with your weapon set up it would be:
9/9/4/4/-1

OK, and the partial attack would just be 1 +13 attack or does twf add into that also?

[Krazzman]

OK, and the partial attack would just be 1 +13 attack or does twf add into that also?

Hmm I remember a Thread where this was part of a really heated discussion... but I think the base note was yes you are left with a single attack at full BaB.

Please note my second edit and post your current build here + information what you can change so we can help you easier/better.

[Eldariel]

Let's clear out the confusion:

Two-Weapon Fighting gives you an extra attack at full Base Attack Bonus with two-weapon fighting penalties. If your offhand weapon is light, you get -2 penalty to all attacks, if your offhand weapon is one-handed you get -4 penalty. So:
Normally you attack at +BAB

With TWF, you attack at +BAB-2/+BAB-2 with a light off-hand weapon (such as Short Sword) or +BAB-4/+BAB-4 with a one-handed off-hand weapon (such as Scimitar).


ITWF gives you an extra attack at -5 with your off-hand weapon. This is the same as the first iterative, so assuming 6+ Base Attack Bonus, you attack at:

+BAB-4/+BAB-4/+BAB-9/+BAB-9 (or +BAB-2/+BAB-2/+BAB-7/+BAB-7 with e.g. Short Sword in the offhand)


GTWF gives you the third iterative with off-hand weapon assuming 11+ BAB:

+BAB-4/+BAB-4/BAB-9/BAB-9/BAB-14/BAB-14 (or +BAB-2/+BAB-2/BAB-7/BAB-7/BAB-12/BAB-12 with light weapon in the offhand)


So assuming you have 18 Strength, your attack bonus is 13 BAB + 4 Strength. Your full attack with a Scimitar (one-handed weapon) in your off-hand, giving you -4 penalty to all attacks for:

+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 total. If you have bonuses in your weapons or Weapon Focus feats or such you obviously add all of those to every attack. And if your off-hand weapon were light instead of Scimitar (say, Short Sword) you'd only get -2 to attacks from it at:
+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5

[Andezzar]

Don't google look into the rulebooks. Drow is not a template, it is a race. Unless you use the option of Lesser Drow (which would alter the whole campaign world) from Races of Faerun, a drow is a LA +2 race.

I don't know the optimization level of the other characters, but just because you are going to play the beatstick, does not mean you have to take levels in the fighter class. Warblade with a fighter dip probably works a lot better as would the swordsage and a couple of other classes/builds.

For the drow ranger I would suggest two short swords/kukris or a rapier and a shortsword/kukri instead of scimitars, it removes one required feat and unless you have lots of extra damage not in dice form the 18-20 crit range does not do much.

Krazzman's math is correct for a character without oversized TWF. With it the AB would be 12/12/7/7/2, because the penalties are lessened by two and OTWF has a prerequisite of STR 13. Bastard swords cannot be used with finesse.

[Blue1005]

Hmm I remember a Thread where this was part of a really heated discussion... but I think the base note was yes you are left with a single attack at full BaB.

Please note my second edit and post your current build here + information what you can change so we can help you easier/better.



No problem

It is a drow 13 ftr

Str 14
dex 20
int 14
con 12
wis 12
cha 10

so that is 11 feats at lvl 13 including fighter bonus feats
Was wanting to have offhand be a scimitar, but think that more damage is the way to go. Not familiar with 3.5 per say, I came from 2nd ed.

ALL PRINTED d20 and core material is open to use (DM rules to allow for character personalization, must know the source to cite) BUT i want to stay as a fighter.

He wants to be stealthy and sneaky, so he can attack and flank while not being noticed. (YES ROGUE WOULD BE AWESOME) but that is not what I want. The sneaky is flavor really.

Want to deal massive and consistent damage, and like duel wielding just cause. (no CANT HAVE BOTH with duel wielding comments :smallbiggrin:)

[White_Drake]

If you want a sneaky dual wielding Fighter, it would be in your best interest to look into thug and sneak attack fighter variants (Unearthed Arcana).

[Yuki Akuma]

Okay, here's some suggestions for feats:

1: Weapon Finesse
Fighter 1: Two-Weapon Fighting
Fighter 2: Martial Study (Clinging Shadow Strike) OR Martial Study (Shadow Blade Technique) - Tome of Battle Clinging Shadow Strike lets you, once per encounter, perform a single attack as a standard action that deals +1d6 damage and forces the opponent to make a Will save (DC 11 + your Wisdom modifier) or suffer a 20% miss chance on all attacks for one round. Shadow Blade Technique lets you, once per encounter, make a single attack as a standard action, for which you roll 2d20 and choose whichever result you want as your attack roll. If you choose the higher, you resolve the attack normally. If you choose the lower (or both are the same), and still hit, you deal +1d6 cold damage. Both of these are Supernatural abilities, so they're magic and don't work in an AMF. Also, either way, you gain Hide as a class skill.
3: Martial Study (Twin Fang Strike) - Tome of Battle (Once per encounter, attack with both weapons as a standard action. Also gain Jump as a class skill.)
Fighter 4: Whatever
Fighter 6: Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) - Tome of Battle (Gain Sneak Attack +2d6. You can switch this on and off as a swift action.) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
6: Shadow Blade - Tome of Battle (While Assassin's Stance is active (or any Shadow Hand stance really), add your Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with short swords, sais, siaghams, daggers, unarmed strikes and spiked chains.) Whatever
Fighter 8: Whatever
9: Whatever
Fighter 10: Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) - Tome of Battle (Gain Sneak Attack +2d6. You can switch this on and off as a swift action.
Fighter 12: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
12: Shadow Blade - Tome of Battle (While Assassin's Stance is active (or any Shadow Hand stance really), add your Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with short swords, sais, siaghams, daggers, unarmed strikes and spiked chains.)

That's about all I can think of. >.> For weapons, I suggest a pair of short swords.

[TypoNinja]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#tableTwoWeaponFightingPenalties Handy table.

Easiest way to remember is that each TWF feat gives you an extra attack. TWF gives you one attack*. ITWF gives you one more offhand attack(total of two). GTWF gives you a third. The second set of attacks still follow BAB rules so attacks 1 through three are at BAB BAB-5 and BAB-10.

Or to put it another way you duplicate your BAB progression for as many extra attacks in your off hand as you have TWF feats. But all attacks while TWFing are at -2 from usual.


*Technically you can always take one offhand attack, the TWF feat just makes the penalties for it not suck horribly, but its easier to keep track of when you think of each feat as an extra offhand attack.

[Keld Denar]

Yuki, check your ILs again on your build. Non-ToB classes only get 1/2 IL. Assassins Stance is 3rd level, which requires an IL of 5, double 5 is 10, or 10 fighter levels are required to take it. Still ok in the long run, just not legal a written.

OP: Why does he have to have fighter levels? Can you make some of them PrC levels? Or oqther levels that are RP-wise the same as fighter levels?
A
Oh, and the best way to get more TWFing damage isn't to use bigger weapons. A dagger that gets to add Dex to damage generally does more damage than a bastard sword that doesn't. The goal is to look for sources of bonus damage and to reduce your attack penalties. Large weapons generally do worse at these two things than not.

[Medic!]

Only in the playground will you walk in with a math question and walk out with a fistfull of business cards with "You built it wrong" written on the back :smallannoyed:
@ TWF:
The way I learned to figure TWF was to take the chart on 160 of the PHB to check penalties (with a bastard sword and scimitar and TWF you get -4, since scimitar's not a light weapon).

Then, just take your normal attacks as though you weren't TWF. With 13 BAB that puts you at 13/8/3. Now for each TWF feat you have (TWF, Imp TWF, Greater TWF, Perfect, etc) duplicate those attacks, and you have your off-hand. (The underlined is the secret to making it easy)

So with 13 BAB and Imp TWF you get 13/8/3 mainhand, 13/8 offhand.

Now apply your various bonuses and penalties from strength (or dex if Finessing), feats (Weapon focus, etc), enhancement bonuses, and your TWF penalty.

Let's say you have 18 str, both weapons are +1, and you have weapon focus on each weapon. You'd end up with your mainhand being 15/10/5 (1d10+5 dmg) and your offhand at 15/10 (1d6+3 dmg).

@Changing builds: Lotta good suggestions floating around already. One that may or may not have been suggested is using the Dervish PrC from Complete Warrior. One of its class features lets you treat a scimitar as a light weapon, which would reduce your TWF penalty to -2 instead of -4 and eventually turn you into a dice-o-matic =D

[Alabenson]

No problem

It is a drow 13 ftr

Str 14
dex 20
int 14
con 12
wis 12
cha 10

so that is 11 feats at lvl 13 including fighter bonus feats
Was wanting to have offhand be a scimitar, but think that more damage is the way to go. Not familiar with 3.5 per say, I came from 2nd ed.

ALL PRINTED d20 and core material is open to use (DM rules to allow for character personalization, must know the source to cite) BUT i want to stay as a fighter.

He wants to be stealthy and sneaky, so he can attack and flank while not being noticed. (YES ROGUE WOULD BE AWESOME) but that is not what I want. The sneaky is flavor really.

Want to deal massive and consistent damage, and like duel wielding just cause. (no CANT HAVE BOTH with duel wielding comments :smallbiggrin:)

Dual wielding while doing high, reasonably consistent damage is certainly possible, I've played characters that do that myself.
Doing so while remaining entirely Fighter, on the other hand, is not. At the very least, you're going to need to dip 1 level of Barbarian for the Spirit Lion Totem ACF, which will allow you to make a full attack on a charge. Being able to do this is essential for what you want to do.

Given your stats, I'd recomend taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency for dragonsplints, a one-handed weapon found in the Monster Manual 4, which counts as a light weapon for purposes of both TWF, removing the need for Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, and Weapon Finesse, allowing you to make use of your high dex for things other than feat prereqs.
In addition to the basic TWF line, I'd pick up Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shocktrooper, and Leap Attack. Essentially what you should be going for is a basic charger build using two weapon fighting as opposed to using a two-handed weapon; you won't deal quite as much damage, but the difference between an opponent at -10 and -200 is fairly meaningless.

Barbarian 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Dragonsplints)
Fighter 1 / Barbarian 1: Two-Weapon Fighting
Fighter 2/ Barbarian 1: Weapon Finesse, Power Attack
Fighter 4 / Barbarian 1: Improved Bull Rush
Fighter 5 / Barbarian 1: Shocktrooper
Fighter 6 / Barbarian 1: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Fighter 8 / Barbarian 1: Leap Attack, plus whatever you want after this.

[Medic!]

Looking at your stats, and seeing the character flavor you want, I'd also take a look at doing something like Swashbuckler (from Complete Warrior) 3/Fighter 10 and take the Daring Warrior feat from Complete Scoundrel. You'd get Weapon Finesse for free, your INT bonus as extra damage on most of your attacks, some extra AC, a reflex save boost, and you wouldn't lose any effective fighter levels for qualifying for feats.

[Yuki Akuma]

Yuki, check your ILs again on your build. Non-ToB classes only get 1/2 IL. Assassins Stance is 3rd level, which requires an IL of 5, double 5 is 10, or 10 fighter levels are required to take it. Still ok in the long run, just not legal a written.

...Crap, you're right.

Uh, my bad there. :smallredface:

So yeah, Assassin's Stance at 10, Shadow Blade and GTWF at 12.

[Blue1005]

Ok so if i wanted to go scimitar TWF what would work then? and how do you figure out BAB?

[Andezzar]

For the purpose of TWF scimitars are the same thing as bastard swords, except that you do not need to have STR 13 or Exotic weapon proficiency Bastard Sword.

[Yuki Akuma]

Ok so if i wanted to go scimitar TWF what would work then? and how do you figure out BAB?

There's a PrC called Dervish in Complete Warrior that lets you treat scimitars as light weapons, so they'd only carry a -2 penalty instead of a -4 one. But it's not very good.

Also note: you don't work out BaB. Your BaB is only decided by your level. Your attack bonus is derived from your BaB.

[MrLemon]

I will just interrupt this thread to do one of two things:
a) correct everybody concerning their math
or
b) learn something about TWF that is not in the SRD

The regular penalties for TWF are -6 for the main hand, and -10 for the offhand.
TWF (as in the feat) lessens this by 4 each, for -2,-6
Wielding a light off-hand-weapon lessens the penalty for the off-hand by another 4
ITWF grants the second iterative attack with the off-hand.

So: A lvl 13 fighter with +0 STR wielding two one-handed weapons would come out at:
Main Hand: +11/+6/+1
Off Hand: +7/+2

Humph, i guess it was
c) I was randomly delusional (I wonder why I was that certain...) :smallconfused:

[Andezzar]

That is wrong MrLemon.
Look at what the SRD has to say about it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting).

Just in case you are of the text trumps table camp here is another quote:

Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.Emphasis mine

[Blue1005]

Ok a fighter is proficient with a scimitar per class correct?

Why is a scimitar not considered a light weapon? PHB says it is 4lbs, just like a light mace which is designated as a light weapon.

So to use them fairly effectively I would just need TWF, and Improved TWF

my attacks would be +9/+4/-1/-1/-1

Does that make sense BAB is +13

[blazinghand]

Ok a fighter is proficient with a scimitar per class correct?

Why is a scimitar not considered a light weapon? PHB says it is 4lbs, just like a light mace which is designated as a light weapon.

So to use them fairly effectively I would just need TWF, and Improved TWF

my attacks would be +9/+4/-1/-1/-1

Does that make sense BAB is +13

A Scimitar is considered a one-handed weapon, and not a light weapon, because that is how it is defined in the weapons table in the PHB.

If you wish to 2-weapon fight with 2 Scimitars and have TWF and iTWF, and you have a BAB of +13, this is what your attack will look like:
Main hand: +9/+4/-1
Off hand: +9/+4

Of course, you'll apply modifiers like strength and enhancement to this, but this is what your full attack looks like without those.

[TuggyNE]

Why is a scimitar not considered a light weapon? PHB says it is 4lbs, just like a light mace which is designated as a light weapon.

The melee weapon categories light/one-handed/two-handed are not directly linked to weight. Instead, they denote how easy a weapon is to wield (i.e., how many hands it requires); weight is one factor, but so is balance, as well as several other things. It's those other factors that prevent, say, a mithral weapon from changing handedness, despite the lighter weight. (That's specifically called out in the description of mithral, by the way.)

As a counter to your example, quarterstaffs are also 4 lbs, and are two-handed. There is no reasonable interpretation that would allow light quarterstaff wielding.

[Blue1005]

A Scimitar is considered a one-handed weapon, and not a light weapon, because that is how it is defined in the weapons table in the PHB.

If you wish to 2-weapon fight with 2 Scimitars and have TWF and iTWF, and you have a BAB of +13, this is what your attack will look like:
Main hand: +9/+4/-1
Off hand: +9/+4

Of course, you'll apply modifiers like strength and enhancement to this, but this is what your full attack looks like without those.

Ok so the off hand uses the attack bonus pattern of the main hand, then adds in subsequent penalties?

[Rejakor]

If you want a sneaky fighter, have you considered the sneak attack fighter, or the hit and run fighter? Both are sneaky fighters.

Alternatively, to be less literal, a melee rogue is a sneaky fighter. He sneaks, and he fights.

[TuggyNE]

Ok so the off hand uses the attack bonus pattern of the main hand, then adds in subsequent penalties?

You get off-hand attacks one at a time from the respective feats; they start at full BAB, and go down from there at the same rate normal iteratives do (-5, -10, and so forth), although they're technically not iteratives. It's important to remember that you need a feat for each one. TWF only covers the first off-hand.

[Blue1005]

You get off-hand attacks one at a time from the respective feats; they start at full BAB, and go down from there at the same rate normal iteratives do (-5, -10, and so forth), although they're technically not iteratives. It's important to remember that you need a feat for each one. TWF only covers the first off-hand.

Ok so for 2nd offhand attack, you would have a +8 for a second attack bonus, then -4 for it being a scimitar, and then -5 for being a second offhand attack. Total of -1 BAB for the 2nd offhand attack? The third would be +3 base, -4 for the weapon and then -10 for the use resulting in the third offhand attack being a total of -11?

Confusing but does that math sound right?

[Krazzman]

Ok so for 2nd offhand attack, you would have a +8 for a second attack bonus, then -4 for it being a scimitar, and then -5 for being a second offhand attack. Total of -1 BAB for the 2nd offhand attack? The third would be +3 base, -4 for the weapon and then -10 for the use resulting in the third offhand attack being a total of -11?

Confusing but does that math sound right?

No. That's why it is confusing.

You have your BaB+Str+other modifiers. As we used that example all the time let's have it fixed on 13.
Mainhand 9(13-4[due to scimitar being a one-handed weapon]), 4(13-5[from iterative]-4), -1(13-10-4)
Offhand 9(from TWF: 13-4), 4(from ITWF: 13-5(from iterative)-4).


Hope this helps clarifying it.

[Andezzar]

Not at all correct, Bue1005. Your BAB never changes due to penalties. the BAB is just a feature of the character. Your Attack bonus (or AB) does change though.

Going with the example of a level 13 fighter, no STR Bonus, and gTWF:
1st Main hand Attack: AB = 13 (BAB) +0 (STR Bonus) -4 (TWF with a one-handed weapon in the off hand) = 9
2nd Main hand Attack: AB = 13 (BAB) +0 (STR Bonus) -4 (TWF with a one-handed weapon in the off hand) -5 (penalty for the second attack) = 4
3rd Main hand Attack: AB = 13 (BAB) +0 (STR Bonus) -4 (TWF with a one-handed weapon in the off hand) -10 (penalty for the third attack) = -1

1st Off Hand Attack: AB = 13 (BAB) +0 (STR Bonus) -4 (TWF with a one-handed weapon in the off hand) = 9
2nd Off Hand Attack: AB = 13 (BAB) +0 (STR Bonus) -4 (TWF with a one-handed weapon in the off hand) -5 (penalty for the second attack) = 4
3rd Off Hand Attack: AB = 13 (BAB) +0 (STR Bonus) -4 (TWF with a one-handed weapon in the off hand) -10 (penalty for the third attack) = -1

If the character only had iTWF there would be no 3rd off hand attack. If the character only had TWF, there would be no 2nd Off Hand Attack.

Without any feat the penalties would be a lot worse and you would still only get a single Off Hand Attack.
Again BAB 13 no feats no STR bonus
1st Main hand Attack: AB = 13 (BAB) +0 (STR Bonus) -6 (TWF with a one-handed weapon in the off hand, no feat) = 7
2nd Main hand Attack: AB = 13 (BAB) +0 (STR Bonus) -6 (TWF with a one-handed weapon in the off hand, no feat) -5 (penalty for the second attack) = 2
3rd Main hand Attack: AB = 13 (BAB) +0 (STR Bonus) -6 (TWF with a one-handed weapon in the off hand, no feat) -10 (penalty for the third attack) = -3
1st and only Main hand Attack: AB = 13 (BAB) +0 (STR Bonus) -10 (TWF with a one-handed weapon in the off hand, no feat) = 3

[Blue1005]

Anyone else think these rules are too damn confusing? Im sure it can be made more simple... But thanks for the help :)

[Socratov]

If I maight add a copper piece: ECL 13 drow: 1 swordsage/10 rogue where you pick distracting ember, ghost sword, blood in the water. weapon finesse, TWF, ITWF, the martial stance feat for the extra sneak dice

wield keen rapier& keen kukri
use distracting ember to flank if neccessary, use ghost sword to get extra chance to crit, once you crit you get extra to hit, extra to hit is awesome so you won't need to worry about hitting with your iteratives and main so you can asap forget about the -2 penalties from TWF

OR

assassin stance, ember, quote V: "I believe the apropiate proclamation is Sneak Attack bitch!" (shamelessly quoting a creation of our very own Giant).

and don't forget to laugh menacingly :smallamused:

[Eldariel]

Anyone else think these rules are too damn confusing? Im sure it can be made more simple... But thanks for the help :)

Heh... They're really fairly straightforward once you get around them. You have N mainhand attacks derived from Base Attack Bonus; each TWF feat gives you one corresponding off-hand attack. And using two big weapons = -4 to all attacks, one big and one small weapon = -2 to all attacks, compared to fighting only with 1 weapon.

[rockdeworld]

Sadly I think the best TWF rules would simply involve TWF-ing with no penalty :smallsigh:

Is it really breaking the game (or even unbalancing) for any character to use two longswords at normal BAB (+ whatever)? Considering the loss to damage relative to 2H PA, and loss to AC relative to a shield?

[Alabenson]

May I ask a question? Why exactly are you so dead set on specificly dual wielding scimitars? There's nothing about them that particularly helps a predominately straight class dual-wielding Fighter to deal anything more than superficial damage, and style-wise there have been so many clones of a certain drow ranger that dual wielding scimitars has become something of a bad joke.
Granted, a 1 level did into Dervish would allow you to treat them as light weapons for TWF, but given that a) by RAW the same ability also means you'd treat scimitars as light weapons for purposes of Power Attack (this is very bad), b) entering Dervish requires 4 mediocre feats, and c) you could gain the same benefit by taking Oversized TWF, there's really very little benefit to going Dervish at all.

[Gavinfoxx]

OK lets do this. IF i could talk to the DM and bet the most hack for my money, still using TWF as a 13 lvl drow, how would you do it? Optimize please.
?

Lets see. High Dex? With lots of crappy fighter levels? EWP: Elven Courtblade, Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting, (no two weapon defense, get a dancing/animated [I forget which] shield) and Armor Spikes. And some strength-increasing gear.

Two weapon fight with a finesseable greatsword like weapon and armor spikes.

[rockdeworld]

It's probably been mentioned, but I just read this page and so may have missed it: why not use a kukri, gain +2 to all attacks in exchange for 1 average damage on half of them?

Edit: I see that using scimitars isn't the OP's main point, that was just a silly suggestion.

In that case, any of the other builds would work well with the applicable weapons. Scimitars are decent on-handed weapons because of the large crit range, and kukris/picks are decent off-handed weapons for the same reason/large crit multiplier.

[Blue1005]

May I ask a question? Why exactly are you so dead set on specificly dual wielding scimitars? There's nothing about them that particularly helps a predominately straight class dual-wielding Fighter to deal anything more than superficial damage, and style-wise there have been so many clones of a certain drow ranger that dual wielding scimitars has become something of a bad joke.
Granted, a 1 level did into Dervish would allow you to treat them as light weapons for TWF, but given that a) by RAW the same ability also means you'd treat scimitars as light weapons for purposes of Power Attack (this is very bad), b) entering Dervish requires 4 mediocre feats, and c) you could gain the same benefit by taking Oversized TWF, there's really very little benefit to going Dervish at all.


OK, so I am trying to do this for another player in the game, he is new to 3.5, he wants a drizzit clone (if you havent guessed) and that is about it. Me personally love the TWF idea, but am sad that it does suck so much.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you want a Drizz't clone and to not be, you know, completely stymied by the system...

1.) Use Lesser Drow; LA sucks in this game.
2.) You'll need two weapon fighting and oversized two weapon fighting. And that is about it as far as two weapon fighting feats; the rest mostly suck. IE, you want just barely enough to say that you are two weapon fighting with scimitars, and no more investment in this concept!
3.) You'll probably want to use a solid two weapon fighting class, like the Swordsage, and just take that for all your levels.

[TuggyNE]

Ok so for 2nd offhand attack, you would have a +8 for a second attack bonus, then -4 for it being a scimitar, and then -5 for being a second offhand attack. Total of -1 BAB for the 2nd offhand attack? The third would be +3 base, -4 for the weapon and then -10 for the use resulting in the third offhand attack being a total of -11?

The main point you got wrong is that BAB is a single number; it's often expressed as +13/+8/+3, for example, but only the first number is your BAB. (The others are iteratives.)

[Eldariel]

If you want a Drizz't clone and to not be, you know, completely stymied by the system...

1.) Use Lesser Drow; LA sucks in this game.
2.) You'll need two weapon fighting and oversized two weapon fighting. And that is about it as far as two weapon fighting feats; the rest mostly suck. IE, you want just barely enough to say that you are two weapon fighting with scimitars, and no more investment in this concept!

There's a class specifically for Drizzt in Dervish from Complete Warrior. Even gets Scimitars as light weapons and his fabled Sword Spin, and skills along his lines.

[Gavinfoxx]

There's a class specifically for Drizzt in Dervish from Complete Warrior. Even gets Scimitars as light weapons and his fabled Sword Spin, and skills along his lines.

And yet, it still sucks.

[Eldariel]

And yet, it still sucks.

It's not amazing but splash some ToB and it's passable.

[Blue1005]

Coolness, just boggles my mind, anyone have any good homebrew to make this a good skill? Logic would dictate (to me at least) that a TWF would be awesome, just would need more muscle mass and dexterity, but the penalties make it like fighting with a wet noodle

[Gavinfoxx]

Coolness, just boggles my mind, anyone have any good homebrew to make this a good skill? Logic would dictate (to me at least) that a TWF would be awesome, just would need more muscle mass and dexterity, but the penalties make it like fighting with a wet noodle

Yea, if you want 2wf to rock... you probably have to change editions... It takes sooo much effort to get 2wf to not suck, and most of the time, you are running faster (ie, optimizing more aggressively) just to stay in place. ESPECIALLY if you want to do something that the rules seriously hate you for even thinking of doing, like fight with two scimitars.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026

And why does logic have anything to do with 2wf being awesome? In history, it was such an un-used fighting style so as to pretty much be nonexistant except for niche situations... it's mostly over-the-top media that focuses on two weapon fighting being actually useful, which D&D 3.5e... really had a good amount of trouble managing to do, with so much of its baggage for melee.

[TypoNinja]

TWF really shines with a Rogue applying its sneak attack in my opinion.

at 15th level you get 6 attacks that each can produce an extra 8d6. Potential for 48d6.

Admittedly you probably won't hit with all six, but you can see how suddenly its a lot more impressive than just another weapons damage.

[Blue1005]

TWF really shines with a Rogue applying its sneak attack in my opinion.

at 15th level you get 6 attacks that each can produce an extra 8d6. Potential for 48d6.

Admittedly you probably won't hit with all six, but you can see how suddenly its a lot more impressive than just another weapons damage.

That does sound awesome, or even just a lvl 1 splash of rogue to get the extra at all. Does Sneak attack count when flanking too? I may suggest that they take 1 lvl of rogue to power it up a little, then that is +2 to offset the ridiculous penalties a little.

[blazinghand]

That does sound awesome, or even just a lvl 1 splash of rogue to get the extra at all. Does Sneak attack count when flanking too? I may suggest that they take 1 lvl of rogue to power it up a little, then that is +2 to offset the ridiculous penalties a little.

Sneak Attack can work with flanks, yes.


Sneak Attack

If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

[Medic!]

OK, so I am trying to do this for another player in the game, he is new to 3.5, he wants a drizzit clone (if you havent guessed) and that is about it. Me personally love the TWF idea, but am sad that it does suck so much.

If it helps, Drizzt is statted out (probly in several places) on page 177 of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting as a Ftr 10/Brb 1/Rng 5

Of course any statted out Drizzt is a guess at best, since R.A. Salvatore (according the the Foreword of the collector's edition of The Cleric Quintet) has only once written a book "about an actual character from a game." And it wasn't Drizzt. The FRCS version is also 3.0, so take it for what it's worth. In 3.5 terms I'd probly call him a whirling frenzy, pouncing barbarian with a couple fighter levels and the rest ranger...or with the lee-way to do it, a Gestalt Barbarian 1/Fighter into Dervish // Scout 3/Ranger with Swift Hunter

[Alabenson]

Coolness, just boggles my mind, anyone have any good homebrew to make this a good skill? Logic would dictate (to me at least) that a TWF would be awesome, just would need more muscle mass and dexterity, but the penalties make it like fighting with a wet noodle

Honestly, if what you want more than anything else is for TWF to not suck, than your best bet is to use one of the classes from Tome of Battle, focusing on the Tiger Claw school, which has a number of abilities that greatly improve that style of fighting.


Actually, as a general rule, most melee works better with Tome of Battle, as it took a very long time for WOTC to grasp the concept that the original Fighter class wasn't such a great benchmark for balancing melee.

[Blue1005]

Sadly I think the best TWF rules would simply involve TWF-ing with no penalty :smallsigh:

Is it really breaking the game (or even unbalancing) for any character to use two longswords at normal BAB (+ whatever)? Considering the loss to damage relative to 2H PA, and loss to AC relative to a shield?

I totally agree there. And if you have trained enough for it, which you would have by logic in the DnD world, you would be far more proficient with both hands. They the time the 2nd and 3rd attack came in the bonuses should far outweigh the penalties.

[TypoNinja]

I totally agree there. And if you have trained enough for it, which you would have by logic in the DnD world, you would be far more proficient with both hands. They the time the 2nd and 3rd attack came in the bonuses should far outweigh the penalties.

There is a PrC that takes away the last -2-2, alas its got the dodge, mobility, spring attack, feat tax for entry requirements, making it suddenly a lot less cool.

[Andezzar]

Just in case someone wondered, it's the Tempest from Complete Adventurer. The PrC also has two other interesting features. One is that if you dual-wield two different weapons a couple of weapon specific feats also apply to the other weapon. The other is that you may attack with both weapons when you spring attack.

[rockdeworld]

I may have missed this: are you the DM? If so, just rule that he can use TWF without penalty. Or alternatively, give him Two Weapon Fighting from this source. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Warriors_with_Style#The_Failure_of_Feats) Note: it's 3rd party.

[TypoNinja]

Just in case someone wondered, it's the Tempest from Complete Adventurer. The PrC also has two other interesting features. One is that if you dual-wield two different weapons a couple of weapon specific feats also apply to the other weapon. The other is that you may attack with both weapons when you spring attack.

Thanks, couldn't remember the name.

Yea, but Two Weapon Pounce duplicates one feature, and Weapon Mastery duplicates the other. Two feats instead of three, and in less levels. Unless you already had Dodge, Mobility, and Spring attack for something else its a pretty sad PrC.

[Andezzar]

Yeah, ToB - How the melee classes should have been in the first place.

Where's Two-Weapon Pounce from? I only know about the Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian Pounce.

[TypoNinja]

Yeah, ToB - How the melee classes should have been in the first place.

Where's Two-Weapon Pounce from? I only know about the Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian Pounce.

PHB2, there's actually a whole lot of feats in there that are really nice. Follow that bad boy up with Two-Weapon Rend for even more bonus damage :D

Ranged Weapon Mastery is drool worthy if you are a throwing things character +2 to hit and damage and +20foot range increment.

[Andezzar]

PHB2, there's actually a whole lot of feats in there that are really nice. Follow that bad boy up with Two-Weapon Rend for even more bonus damage :DWhile taking a level of barbarian is not for everyone, I still think real Pounce is a lot better, especially at higher levels. You could still take two-weapon rend.

[Blue1005]

Has anyone here made any homebrew feats or classes that deal with TWF that I may be able to use? Must be somewhere that people have wanted to hone this ability.

[rockdeworld]

Has anyone here made any homebrew feats or classes that deal with TWF that I may be able to use? Must be somewhere that people have wanted to hone this ability.
Yes, the one I posted above.

Edit: I misread that post: I didn't make the feats in the above link, Frank&K did.

[TypoNinja]

While taking a level of barbarian is not for everyone, I still think real Pounce is a lot better, especially at higher levels. You could still take two-weapon rend.

The games I play in are low OP enough that I'd feel guilty for taking a lion totem dip.