Stacking ACF and Variant Classes

[Kaustic]

I was thinking, and was wondering if this could work.

Wolf Totem Barbarian(UA) Variant Class Feature to gain Imp. Trip at Level 2.
Same token, your first level you take the (CC)ACF for Lion Totem to gain Pounce.

They don't interfere with each other. Lion Totem taking away Fast Movement Feature, which is still included with the Wolf Totem Barbarian. Wolf Totem just doesn't get Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense, and Imp. Uncanny Dodge.

In the Unearthed Arcana the Variant Class doesn't Stack with any other Variant or Class so no Barbarian/Wolf Totem Barb. levels stacking, they are considered different classes. No where does it say, nor can I find that an Alternate Class Feature changes the class so dramatically that it is also considered a Variant.

I can see why Fluff wise how something like Wolf Totem/Lion Totem would be different, but for Optimization sake, why hasn't this been done? Too much of a good thing?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I was thinking, and was wondering if this could work.

Wolf Totem Barbarian(UA) Variant Class Feature to gain Imp. Trip at Level 2.
Same token, your first level you take the (CC)ACF for Lion Totem to gain Pounce.

They don't interfere with each other. Lion Totem taking away Fast Movement Feature, which is still included with the Wolf Totem Barbarian. Wolf Totem just doesn't get Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense, and Imp. Uncanny Dodge.

In the Unearthed Arcana the Variant Class doesn't Stack with any other Variant or Class so no Barbarian/Wolf Totem Barb. levels stacking, they are considered different classes. No where does it say, nor can I find that an Alternate Class Feature changes the class so dramatically that it is also considered a Variant.

I can see why Fluff wise how something like Wolf Totem/Lion Totem would be different, but for Optimization sake, why hasn't this been done? Too much of a good thing?

Alternative Class Feature is a different thing that a Variant Class, by RAW if you have the clas feature to trade (in the spirit lion totem case Fast movement) you can trade it to get the benefit, it doesn't matter if you are a Horse Totem Barbarian or Jaguar Totem or a dragon totem, etc.

On the fluff issue of having two different totemic animals:
http://danavanderford.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/totem.jpg
A totem-pole is made from different animals, why can't tou have two totemic animals?

[Kaustic]

I was mostly thinking of how the Lion is African and the Wolf is more American based. That doesn't work out so well, since we do have Mountain Lions in America.

I just thought it weird that you don't see Optimized builds based on Charging or Tripping use the two for more Umph.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well that is in the Real World, who is is to say that in your setting Lions and Wolves live near each other?

I've seen (and reccomended myself) many melee builds to include at the very least two levels of barbarian exactly for those reasons, Charge is almost needed in order to be an effective meleer in mid to high optimization games and even if you aren't completely focused on tripping, having the option at virtually no cost (Barbarians have high BAB, high fort, the biggest HD and decent skill points with a decent-ish skill list) is a no brainer.

[Darrin]

I just thought it weird that you don't see Optimized builds based on Charging or Tripping use the two for more Umph.

It may not happen all that often because on a properly built Pouncing Ubercharger, there won't be anything left to trip beyond a bloody smear, so why bother...

I've suggested this combo before, but I've also been called out that this is too blatantly "powergaming" for most people's tastes, and unlikely to be accepted by most DMs as part of a "reasonable" backstory. My response was basically Dusk Eclipse's: how many totem poles do you see with only a single animal on it? But for some reason multiple totems really rubs people the wrong way... apparently Monotheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism) is a Thing.

[eggs]

I can see why Fluff wise how something like Wolf Totem/Lion Totem would be different, but for Optimization sake, why hasn't this been done? Too much of a good thing?
Isn't this done in like 2/3 of Barbarian builds?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Isn't this done in like 2/3 of Barbarian builds?

To be honest I haven't seen that many Barbarian-focused builds lately, most of melee builds I've remember default to Barb 1/insert ToB class or psychic warrior.

[Lyndworm]

If you're looking for Barbarian variant stacking, I might have something you'd like to see. I was working on a Barbarian build quite a while ago when I began combining different ACFs and, after some serious digging, came up with something I dubbed the "Uberbarian;" it combines the Lion Spirit Totem's Pounce, the Dashing Step ACFDr349, the Fangshield Barbarian's Awesome Blow substitution levelCoV (if applicable), and the Streetfighter ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). If you're interested in the class progression for that, I have it saved on my computer and could post it for you.


I was mostly thinking of how the Lion is African and the Wolf is more American based. That doesn't work out so well, since we do have Mountain Lions in America.
In addition to the Cougar & Wolf pair, there are sometimes Indian or Arabian wolves and asiatic lions in the same areas. Granted, that doesn't happen often anymore, what with there (probably) being less than 500 asiatic lions left, but in days of old, man had to worry about both monstrous dogs and monstrous cats when he left is village.

If you felt up to it, you could switch lion for snow/clouded leopard, cheetah (also with an asiatic variety), or tiger, or you could switch wolf for dhole, hyena (not a canid, but it has that same Trip), or even maned wolf (not really a wolf, but it's own, distinct canid).

You've got options, my friend.


Isn't this done in like 2/3 of Barbarian builds?
Pretty much, yeah.

[Cog]

The last time I saw this combination cone up, it was pointed out that there is a single animal that combines the abilities of both totems, an animal rightly feared and respected.

Call it the Fleshraker Totem.

[Noodler]

I was mostly thinking of how the Lion is African and the Wolf is more American based. That doesn't work out so well, since we do have Mountain Lions in America.


Just change wolf with jackal, but in other news.
African Wolf (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110126171446.htm)

[VeGaS1986]

Native American totem poles shouldnt really be a valid argument for multiple totem animals. Those totems were the whole tribes, not just one persons, and for the most part didnt even refer to the animals, as much as serve as reminder of stories and great personalities (like a bull head to remind of Sitting Bull or some such). Also the translation of the native word means "his kinship group". Ofc if your world has Lions mating with Wolves I guess it could fly.

But really, why anyone allows the Complete Champion totem is beyond me anyway. The power of the ACF almost seems like it was written with the old Pounce in mind and not with the current 3.5 one. There are only very few prestige classes that even grant the ability, and in those cases its either limited use (like the Wild Runner) or around level 7-10 of the prestige class. The CC ACF is like going to a cardealer, having the owner simply give you the car, and then also hand you 10000 Dollars on top.

This is ofc when everyone tells me Wizards are way more powerful, and warriors cant have nice things.

[Jeff the Green]

The CC ACF is like going to a cardealer, having the owner simply give you the car, and then also hand you 10000 Dollars on top.

This is ofc when everyone tells me Wizards are way more powerful, and warriors cant have nice things.

No, it's like deciding to be a plumber rather than a supermodel and still making enough money to own my own house. Pounce is nice in low-op games and necessary in higher-op games, but it a) only comes online at 6th level (without twf or natural weapons) and b) is an extremely limited tool.

More on topic, there are, IIRC, a number of Amerindian peoples who had one totem animal for the family unit and some individuals would also have a personal totem animal.

[awa]

also mountain lions there still lions

[Coidzor]

Mountain Lions are more like generic leopards than lions.

Anyhoo, Considering it's a spirit totem and a non-spirit totem, and they don't really interact in the application, I fail to see any problem, especially since this has been hashed out many, many times.

You may not like how you personally interpret any implications from the lack of supplied fluff, but I don't like the fluff that they provided when Deathwatch was made into an evil spell. RAW this works, RAW Deathwatch is evil. You don't like it, houserule it like I houserule what I don't like, but you'd better be prepared to get called to account for doing so.

[awa]

i meant for fluff purposes in regards to the totem not mechanics

[Eugenides]

If you're looking for Barbarian variant stacking, I might have something you'd like to see. I was working on a Barbarian build quite a while ago when I began combining different ACFs and, after some serious digging, came up with something I dubbed the "Uberbarian;" it combines the Lion Spirit Totem's Pounce, the Dashing Step ACFDr349, the Fangshield Barbarian's Awesome Blow substitution levelCoV (if applicable), and the Streetfighter ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). If you're interested in the class progression for that, I have it saved on my computer and could post it for you.


I'd be interested in seeing that build

[hex0]

A totem-pole is made from different animals, why can't tou have two totemic animals?

Red XIII from FFVII is like a Wolf/Lion by most descriptions, so I'd say fine.

[Lyndworm]

I'd be interested in seeing that build
Well... OK, then, here it is:


This combines the Lion Spirit Totem's Pounce (from Complete Champion), the Dashing Step ACF (from Dragon Magazine 349), the Fangshield Barbarian's Awesome Blow substitution level (if applicable) (from Champions of Valor), and the Streetfighter ACF (from the Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)).

Uberbarian:
The Uberbarian

Hit Dice: d12
{table=head]
Level |
BAB |
Fort |
Ref |
Will |
Special

1st | +1 | +2 | +0 | +0 | Dashing Step, Illiteracy, Pounce, Rage 1/day

2nd | +2 | +3 | +0 | +0 | Uncanny Dodge

3rd | +3 | +3 | +1 | +1 | Dashing Step +1

4th | +4 | +4 | +1 | +1 | Rage 2/day

5th | +5 | +4 | +1 | +1 | Improved Uncanny Dodge

6th | +6/+1 | +5 | +2 | +2 | Dashing Step +2

7th | +7/+2 | +5 | +2 | +2 | Streetfighter (Threat Range Increase)

8th | +8/+3 | +6 | +2 | +2 | Rage 3/day

9th | +9/+4 | +6 | +3 | +3 | Dashing Step +3

10th | +10/+5 | +7 | +3 | +3 | Streetfighter (Twisted Charge)

11th | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +3 | +3 | Greater Rage

12th | +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +4 | +4 | Dashing Step +4, Rage 4/day

13th | +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +4 | +4 | Streetfighter (Unhindered Path)

14th | +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +4 | +4 | Indomitable Will

15th | +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +5 | +5 | Dashing Step +5

16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +5 | +5 | Rage 5/day, Streetfighter (Running Charge)

17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +6 | +6 | Tireless Rage

18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +6 | +6 | Dashing Step +6

19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +6 | Streetfighter (Cleaving Charge)

20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +6 | Mighty Rage, Rage 6/day[/table]
Skills: 4+Int modifier per level. (4+Int mod)x4 at first level.
Skill List: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
An Uberbarian is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).

Uberbarian Class Features:

Dashing Step (Ex):
An Uberbarian does not takes a penalty to his Armor Class when charging. Starting at 3rd level, he also gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity made against him during a charge. This bonus rises by +1 every three Uberbarian levels thereafter (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level).


Pounce (Ex):
If an Uberbarian charges a foe, it can make a full attack.


Illiteracy:
Uberbarians are the only characters who do not automatically know how to read and write. An Uberbarian may spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write all languages he is able to speak.

An Uberbarian who gains a level in any other class automatically gains literacy. Any other character who gains an Uberbarian level does not lose the literacy he or she already had.


Rage (Ex):
An Uberbarian can fly into a rage a certain number of times per day. In a rage, an Uberbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the Uberbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While raging, an Uberbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. An Uberbarian may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the Uberbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (–2 penalty to Strength, –2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level Uberbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies; see below).

An Uberbarian can fly into a rage only once per encounter. At 1st level he can use his rage ability once per day. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, he can use it one additional time per day (to a maximum of six times per day at 20th level). Entering a rage takes no time itself, but an Uberbarian can do it only during his action, not in response to someone else’s action.


Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
At 2nd level, an Uberbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If an Uberbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.


Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
At 5th level and higher, an Uberbarian can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a Rogue the ability to sneak attack the Uberbarian by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more Rogue levels than the target has Uberbarian levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a Rogue must be to flank the character.

If the Uberbarian is a non-humanoid type creature, he instead gains the Awesome Charge ability:

Awesome Charge (Ex):
At 5th level, a charging Uberbarian in a rage can make an attack at the end of a charge as if he had the Awesome Blow (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Awesome_Blow) feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. (Normally, Awesome Blow requires a standard action; this is a specific exception to that rule.)

Streetfighter (Ex):
At 7th level, the critical threat range of any charge attack the Uberbarian makes, or any attack he makes against a flat-footed foe, increases by 1. (Thus, a greataxe would threaten a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.) This ability stacks with the Improved Critical feat or the keen weapon enhancement.

At 10th level, the Uberbarian can make a single turn, up to 90 degrees, during a charge.

At 13th level, the Uberbarian can charge through squares occupied by his allies or by noncombatants.

At 16th level, the Uberbarian can move up to four times his speed when making a charge attack, rather than double.

At 19th level, the Uberbarian acquires a "cleaving charge." If he drops an opponent on a charge attack, and he has at least 10 feet of movement remaining, he can immediately make a new charge attack against a second foe. If he drops that foe and still has movement remaining, he can charge a third, and so on until he either fails to drop a foe, or runs out of movement. All the other standard rules for a charge attack still apply, including the fact that he must have at least 10 feet of distance to make the charge.

Even if he somehow gains the ability to make multiple attacks on a charge (such as with the lion's charge spell from the Spell Compendium), he must drop the foe on the first attack to use this ability. Similarly, he cannot use this ability and Cleave or Great Cleave in the same round.


Greater Rage (Ex):
At 11th level, an Uberbarian’s bonuses to Strength and Constitution during his rage each increase to +6, and his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +3. The penalty to AC remains at –2.


Indomitable Will (Ex):
While in a rage, an Uberbarian of 14th level or higher gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves he also receives during his rage.


Tireless Rage (Ex):
At 17th level and higher, an Uberbarian no longer becomes fatigued at the end of his rage.


Mighty Rage (Ex):
At 20th level, an Uberbarian’s bonuses to Strength and Constitution during his rage each increase to +8, and his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +4. The penalty to AC remains at -2.
Hopefully you can get some use out of this.

[Gavinfoxx]

Hunh. I totally didn't know about Dashing Step... not too good if you are going Shock Trooper, though!

[Lyndworm]

How does it interfere with Shock Trooper?

[Gavinfoxx]

Because of the idea that it implies you care about AC at all when charging? Cause your AC is going to be tanked when charging ANYWAY with shock trooper... two points of AC when your AC is in the single digits or negative won't help, you know?

[Lyndworm]

I see what you mean, now... No, it's not especially helpful to Shock Troopers, you're right. It is, however, much better for pretty much everyone than Trapsense. :smalltongue:

[Gavinfoxx]

I think there's another thing Barbarians can trade trapsense for that's better... I'd have to look at the options...

[Lyndworm]

The Wolf Totem trades out Trapsense, which is as viable an option for the Uberbarian as it is anyone else.

[eggs]

Doesn't the Trapkiller's Trapfinding replace Trapsense? I'm always fond of flipping out and hitting a pit trap with a sword to make it go away.