Cruel and unusual way of executing the Undead [3.5]

[Arcanist]

My friend just asked me what that would be like. I assume it's impossible to torture and execute undead since they are:

A) Immune to fear (If memory serves it's mind-effecting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fear))

B) Have no living nerve endings so they can't feel pain.

So what is your opinion on this? Can the undead be tortured? and if so, how?

Assume that we're using Torture rules from the BoVD which are dependent on fear and intimidation which the Undead are immune to :smallconfused:

[Eldan]

Holy water/energy is often shown as being painful to them. But that's entirely DM dependent, I've never seen any rules on pain.

[dextercorvia]

Spark of Life says go for it....

[Medic!]

Lol Holy Water Boarding

[HunterColt22]

Unintelligent undead, just cut off the head and stick it in a jar in front of live people. Still alive but can't do squat. Intelligent undead, such as Liches and the like, they are effected in the same way most intelligent creatures are, use your imagination.

[Blightedmarsh]

Mental torturer. If the mind is all that they have left then deprive them of it.

Make them a S.E.I.A.C. and throw them in a volcano. See how they like 3000 years of nothing to see and nothing to do. Worse make them listen to the same snatches of half heard song over and over....forever.

[Tvtyrant]

They panic when turned, which may be construed as actual terror. Then simply standing in a room turning them over and over while they are chained up would be rather like Scarecrow gas.

You can always resurrect them and then torture them as live beings if you really need to get the horror mileage out of it.

[Arcanist]

Spark of Life says go for it....

That spell doesn't remove Mind-effecting immunity which is important when using Torture rules... I should have probably added that this is based on Torture rules from the BoVD :smallsmile:

[Morithias]

I was under the impression that torture was an intimidate check, which being immune to fear, undead are immune to.

But then again, no DM is going to say "you dunk the vampire in a holy Chinese water torture machine and he seems perfectly calm"

[Slipperychicken]

Prolonged isolation should still be horribly traumatic. I mean sticking them in pitch-dark hole with absolutely no mental stimuli (no light, no sounds, no feeling but damp mud, no ability to maneuver). Actually, sever the head and toss it into the hole (or soundproof vault could work). This should be a terrible prolonged experience, especially if the head submerges completely in the mud. Best part is, no one can bring him back.

Soul-destruction should work fine, provided you have the means.

You can resurrect/spark of life the undead, then torture it as normal.

Eternity of Torture (BoED, Pain 9) isn't mind affecting or an enchantment, but still inflicts horrible, unimaginable pain. So it should hit Undead just fine. You can still torture the guy on top of the spell, and carry his now-unmoving body around for all your punching/bag needs.

[dextercorvia]

That spell doesn't remove Mind-effecting immunity which is important when using Torture rules... I should have probably added that this is based on Torture rules from the BoVD :smallsmile:

Sorry, I thought that it did.

[Urpriest]

You can also get past immunity via Dread Witch.

[Coidzor]

Immune to fear is not immune to pain.

Undead does not mean they can't feel pain, you're confusing all undead with mindless undead there.


Unintelligent undead, just cut off the head and stick it in a jar in front of live people. Still alive but can't do squat.

You can't torture a chair. It's both pointless and just makes you look more unhinged than one would normally look for wanting to torture the undead rather than destroy them efficiently.


That spell doesn't remove Mind-effecting immunity which is important when using Torture rules... I should have probably added that this is based on Torture rules from the BoVD :smallsmile:

Why on earth do you want to use the Torture Rules from BOVD? :smallconfused:

[Arcanist]

Immune to fear is not immune to pain.

Undead does not mean they can't feel pain, you're confusing all undead with mindless undead there.

I'm assuming the nerves in the Undead are dead so they don't feel anything :smallconfused:


Why on earth do you want to use the Torture Rules from BOVD? :smallconfused:

Because I can't find torture rules from any other sourcebook? :smallconfused:

[Coidzor]

I'm assuming the nerves in the Undead are dead so they don't feel anything :smallconfused:

Why? Haven't you encountered vampires howling in pain from sunlight before? Undead is not the same thing as dead, especially in the case of things like ghouls and necropolitans which are pretty much perverse caricatures of life powered by negative energy.


Because I can't find torture rules from any other sourcebook? :smallconfused:

What are you trying to accomplish that you need mechanical rules for it? :smallconfused: Are you trying to get information out of intelligent undead or something?

If you just want them to be destroyed in an agonizing fashion, hell, there's bloody ravages of all things.

[Arcanist]

Why? Haven't you encountered vampires howling in pain from sunlight before? Undead is not the same thing as dead, especially in the case of things like ghouls and necropolitans which are pretty much perverse caricatures of life powered by negative energy.

I'm honestly assuming that from this text in the Libra Mortis


Touch: Undead retain a blunt, phantom sense of touch, more mechanical than biological. It is a pale, crude approximation of a real tactile sense. Incorporeal undead have no sense of touch.


What are you trying to accomplish that you need mechanical rules for it? :smallconfused: Are you trying to get information out of intelligent undead or something?

If you just want them to be destroyed in an agonizing fashion, hell, there's bloody ravages of all things.

I started this thread off with "My friend asked me" If I wanted to just see the undead creature dead I would just destroy it, but I want to know how to torture a sentient undead creature to make it suffer for what its done (whatever that may be).

[Coidzor]

I'm honestly assuming that from this text in the Libra Mortis

If they have no sense of touch or other sensation then they would be exceedingly clumsy and accident prone, just as happens when people in real life lose their ability to sense pain or pressure.

And if they had no sense of pain then no form of undead would ever react with pain in any form whatsoever.

Some certainly do not. As has been mentioned though, these are mindless undead who are not really beings.

Others, like certain incorporeal undead are already trapped in madness or sufficiently warped that torture is meaningless.

The main players amongst undead that would be likely targets for such retribution however, would qualify in at least one fashion.


I started this thread off with "My friend asked me" If I wanted to just see the undead creature dead I would just destroy it, but I want to know how to torture a sentient undead creature to make it suffer for what its done (whatever that may be).

Your friend asking you is only a temporary stop on the way to the reason for the thread and is secondary to your actual thrust which you now seem to have finally revealed.

To answer your question, even if you can't use the torture rules you can still make sure it goes out of this world screaming and in pain, and in the end, that and headgames are most of what you can do.

Being as you can't really get away with torturing the DM himself, well, that's about all you can hope for.

[dascarletm]

I'm assuming the nerves in the Undead are dead so they don't feel anything :smallconfused:


Their muscles also move without respiration occurring. They are already working "magically" by being undead.

Science has no place in a fantasy DnD world!

Being immune to fear effects is different then not being afraid of things. A lich would certainly do your bidding if you held its phylactery hostage.

[Arcanist]

If they have no sense of touch or other sensation then they would be exceedingly clumsy and accident prone, just as happens when people in real life lose their ability to sense pain or pressure.

And if they had no sense of pain then no form of undead would ever react with pain in any form whatsoever.

Some certainly do not. As has been mentioned though, these are mindless undead who are not really beings.

Others, like certain incorporeal undead are already trapped in madness or sufficiently warped that torture is meaningless.

The main players amongst undead that would be likely targets for such retribution however, would qualify in at least one fashion.

Please read it as exactly as it is.


Touch: Undead retain a blunt, phantom sense of touch, more
mechanical than biological. It is a pale, crude approximation of a
real tactile sense. Incorporeal undead have no sense of touch.

It is very crude, primitive form of touch. Perhaps it can feel pressure, but not texture which allows them to maintain a balance and stand up properly. They can feel the knife sliding through there side, but no more details beyond that (Does it hurt? Is Masochism currently casted on me? Is this nipple clamp supposed to make me feel good?)


Your friend asking you is only a temporary stop on the way to the reason for the thread and is secondary to your actual thrust which you now seem to have finally revealed.

To answer your question, even if you can't use the torture rules you can still make sure it goes out of this world screaming and in pain, and in the end, that and headgames are most of what you can do.

Being as you can't really get away with torturing the DM himself, well, that's about all you can hope for.

How do you play a mindgame with a Undead creature that feels no fear and has very little to worry about? :smallconfused:


Their muscles also move without respiration occurring. They are already working "magically" by being undead.

Science has no place in a fantasy DnD world!

Being immune to fear effects is different then not being afraid of things. A lich would certainly do your bidding if you held its phylactery hostage.

I used a Science term to describe how I believed something worked in D&D, so sue me. Mechanically Undead do feel things, but in a more simple way then a Living creature does.

And on the Lich note: I usually don't play a Lich as "Oh god, He has my Phylactery! What will I do!?" I play my Lichs as "Oh god! He has my Phylactery! Thank god I prepared Soul Jar for the day!"

Seriously, if you steal one of my Lichs Phylacteries their response will be coming at muzzle velocity.

[Just to Browse]

It is very crude, primitive form of touch. Perhaps it can feel pressure, but not texture which allows them to maintain a balance and stand up properly. They can feel the knife sliding through there side, but no more details beyond that (Does it hurt? Is Masochism currently casted on me? Is this nipple clamp supposed to make me feel good?)

spoilered for size


(Does it hurt? Is Masochism currently casted on me? Is this nipple clamp supposed to make me feel good?)



Is this nipple clamp supposed to make me feel good?

http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/a/image/1334/35/1334359280837.jpg

[toapat]

You can't torture a chair.

quite the contrary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0719.html)

a spell trap with constant turn undead at Undead's HD would do the trick rather effectively

[Arcanist]

quite the contrary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0719.html)

a spell trap with constant turn undead at Undead's HD would do the trick rather effectively

That is actually fairly clever actually :smallconfused: Is it possible to get a class feature into a Spell-Trap? :smallconfused:


(On a side note: I am now convinced that the Empress of blood is the results of a Dragon with the "Ravenous" template applied :smalltongue:)

[toapat]

That is actually fairly clever actually :smallconfused: Is it possible to get a class feature into a Spell-Trap? :smallconfused:


(On a side note: I am now convinced that the Empress of blood is the results of a Dragon with the "Ravenous" template applied :smalltongue:)

Ravenous, the Trait Stout (x2 on weight rolls), and the feat Willing Deformity (Glutony) (x5 weight)

Im not sure if you can make turning traps

[Mithril Leaf]

I'd have to imagine that that phantom sensation is enough to torture them, much as humans with leprosy were tortured in the past. Also, this is rather twisted.

[Arcanist]

Ravenous, the Trait Stout (x2 on weight rolls), and the feat Willing Deformity (Glutony) (x5 weight)

Im not sure if you can make turning traps

I believe she weighs a good 1,600,000lbs... Weird :smallconfused:

Would be quite awesome if you could by RAW

[toapat]

I believe she weighs a good 1,600,000lbs... Weird :smallconfused:
correction, the total stacking is 5x normal weight, the Empress weighs about 9-10 tons, considering she is not old enough to have spellcasting yet (which for red dragons, is the Young Dragon age category, meaning at most she is a Juvenile)

although i havent looked at them, i would suspect a combination of Artificer, Midgard dwarf, and the Stronghold Builder's guide would be required to make a Turn Undead trap

[Morithias]

I was under the impression that "real world figures" used normal math for calculation.

For example if something makes you 2 times as heavy, and something else makes you 5 times as heavy, that comes to 10 times as heavy, not 6 times.

[Arcanist]

I was under the impression that "real world figures" used normal math for calculation.

For example if something makes you 2 times as heavy, and something else makes you 5 times as heavy, that comes to 10 times as heavy, not 6 times.

This ain't the real world. This is gosh darn Dungeons and Friken Dragons! :smallamused:

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/274/446/cb5.gif

:smallcool: :smallcool: :smallcool: :smallcool: :smallcool:

[toapat]

I was under the impression that "real world figures" used normal math for calculation.

For example if something makes you 2 times as heavy, and something else makes you 5 times as heavy, that comes to 10 times as heavy, not 6 times.

i was mistaken, also, its not Square/Cubed law here, its just that you weigh twice, normal, then three times normal, thats either 4x, 5x, or 6x

[Morithias]

i was mistaken, also, its not Square/Cubed law here, its just that you weigh twice, normal, then three times normal, thats either 4x, 5x, or 6x

That if I'm not mistaken would be times 6.

[toapat]

That if I'm not mistaken would be times 6.

its both as base creature though

[Slipperychicken]

Ravenous, the Trait Stout (x2 on weight rolls), and the feat Willing Deformity (Glutony) (x5 weight)

Im not sure if you can make turning traps

If you're Small sized, add the Obese Flaw (Dragon Mag #328) for another x2. If you want to be a reeeaaallly fat Halfling.

[Morithias]

its both as base creature though

From the SRD.

"When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. A creature whose size doubles (thus multiplying its weight by 8) and then is turned to stone (which would multiply its weight by a factor of roughly 3) now weighs about 24 times normal, not 10 times normal."

Source - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm

[toapat]

From the SRD.

"When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. A creature whose size doubles (thus multiplying its weight by 8) and then is turned to stone (which would multiply its weight by a factor of roughly 3) now weighs about 24 times normal, not 10 times normal."

Source - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm

That is a horrible example of RAW. that is turning a target into a larger mass of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, then converting all of that into Silica, a substance that is much more dense then water and hydrocarbons

[Morithias]

That is a horrible example of RAW. that is turning a target into a larger mass of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, then converting all of that into Silica, a substance that is much more dense then water and hydrocarbons

Hey don't you start playing Chess with me. I didn't write it, I'm just the messenger.

[TuggyNE]

That is a horrible example of RAW. that is turning a target into a larger mass of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, then converting all of that into Silica, a substance that is much more dense then water and hydrocarbons

Actually it works fairly well if you assume that mass is added to achieve the same volume (which, given that no story I've ever heard mentions basilisks/gorgons shrinking their victims, is probably the case).

[Coidzor]

That is a horrible example of RAW. that is turning a target into a larger mass of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, then converting all of that into Silica, a substance that is much more dense then water and hydrocarbons

How is that problematic? Do you think it should get a much larger multiplier to the weight or something that it's worth challenging the abstraction? :smallconfused:

[toapat]

How is that problematic? Do you think it should get a much larger multiplier to the weight or something that it's worth challenging the abstraction? :smallconfused:

the situation is different from the situation the combination of attributes is doing. for RL, yes, something gains weight in a multiplicitive fashion, but this isnt two independant variables like the RAW example, the feats though deal entirely with bodyweight through fat, not bodyweight as a result of being huge and then turned to stone.

anyway, can we please prove/disprove whether you can use Turn Undead as a spelltrap

[Lord Vukodlak]

Bind them and bury them unalive. I once trapped a murderous ghost in an etherial solid coffin then buried said coffin.

[Coidzor]

Turn Undead is a supernatural ability, so we need to see if there's a way to turn it into a spell, the only thing similar that I can think of is bone talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) which just creates something which can allow one to turn undead, so that'd require some finagling to make a summoned creature count as the caster for the trap or to make the trap self-aware enough to use the created bone talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) to turn undead.

So, I suppose the answer is yes, but only indirectly and by making a trap into an intelligent item. So I guess the question is, can we make traps into intelligent items?

[Viktyr Gehrig]

It's high level Pathfinder specific but my preferred method of making someone suffer-- as opposed to merely interrogating them-- is to turn them into some sort of intelligent undead creature then dump them in a dead magic negative dominant demiplane with the planar geometry set so that every direction is away from the gate.

If I'm feeling like a real right bastard, I throw in something they loved from the Material Plane once a year on the same date. So they can mark time.

[JellyPooga]

Any Diet Dependant undead can be tortured by simply witholding their food-source. Dangle flesh in front of a Ghoul or blood in front of a Vampire without letting them dine is a sure-fire way to drive them (literally) crazy through Wisdom loss (see Libris Mortis for the salient details, rules-wise)