Versus #4!

[Cranthis]

I'm going to give you guys two 3.5 classes, sometimes drastically different, sometimes very similar. I want to hear your opinions on who would win between the two, and why. The only rule is "Don't use tiers as your only means of explanation". This isn't any sort of contest, it is just a side by side comparison of classes.

Today's versus: Sorcerer vs Favored soul

The weaker cousins of the Cleric and Wizard, but both spontaneous.

Assume both are level 6 in their class (this will not always be the case)

Book limit: Core. (this will not always be the case)

Use your own logic, and your own builds if you want, and explain which side you think wins.

This thread is for gathering general opinions, and is not intended to copy anything similar that may have been done already, excluding my own posts.

Alliteration of the day: Spontaneous casters clash for cash! (note: this does not mean this is pvp, but if you want to use pvp, that is ok)

[Snowbluff]

Favored Souls suck more as as analogue for Cleric that Sorcerors do for Wizard. No Turning? What? I have to dip for this?

It doesn't help that the Sorc/Wiz list is Strictly better than the Cleric list. At least the Cleric has domains to cover the weaknesses of its list..

Also, Incantrix > Dweomerkeeper. Not that Flavored Soul could get into Dweomerkeeper innately, like the Spell Domain Cleric.

[LTwerewolf]

This is your easiest comparison yet. The sorcerer would destroy the favored soul due the the above. Not only that, the sorcerer can eventually go into builds (obviously above your level 6 requirement) such as the mailman, whereas the favored soul doesn't really have any of those shenanigans. Draconic sorcerers can also essentially be wizards.

[nyjastul69]

I agree that Sorcerer wins, hands down. In addition to the above a Favored Soul has to maintain 2 casting stats (Cha, Int), as opposed to a Sorcerer's 1 (Cha).

[LTwerewolf]

Cha and wis, not int.

[Loki_42]

Book limit: Core. (this will not always be the case)



Sorcerer wins by being the only one that exists. Or, you know, for the reasons everyone else said, but let me have my fun.

[Snowbluff]

Decision: Sorc! Existing is important! /highfive

I'm loving this. I have a perverse hatred for Monks and 32 Flavored Souls. So watching one get the beat down makes me happy. :smallsmile:

Let's do Monk vs. Swordsage next.

[Kane0]

Fav Soul has some serious drawbacks, moreso than the sorc, but he does have some nice things.

In terms of comparing to Cleric and Wis, the Fav Soul loses more than the Sorc.

In terms of comparing to each other, it's a case of spells picked and what you are trying to achieve.

In general a fav soul has more hp, better saves and healing spells where the sorc has more versatility and power in terms of spellcasting, even though they both get buffs and CC/debuffs

In a party situation, I would consider a Fav soul to be more important than a Sorc if we were missing both arcane and divine casters.
Against each other in PVP, it could go either way depending on build and spells selected.

Edit: Funny how in all your spellcasting comparisons so far there have been arguments based around the amount of pure power they can muster, like via incantrix cheese.

[nyjastul69]

Cha and wis, not int.

Crap! I knew I should've source checked. I almost put IIRC in my post. :smallredface:

[Snowbluff]

Healing Spells? HEALING SPELLS? Hahahahahahahahaha!

I'm sorry, I considering being a walking Wand of CLW a con.

About BaB etc, their is a lousy Sorc Variant that helps. Also, things like Sorcadin do a much better job at making a Gish that Ketchup Soul.

Mustard Soul can't even DMM Persist Divine Power without a problem.

Also, Familiars are pretty sweet.

[Kane0]

I always hold the ability to heal my own or another's character in high regard. Always.

Im comparing a lvl 6 sorc vs a lvl 6 Fav soul here, not prestige classes and variants and such.

Yes, Poor Fav soul misses out on the cool class features for most of his life :smallfrown:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Core-only, level 6, it's probably going to be a toss-up dependent entirely on what each character does. I'll assume all wands used are purchased partially charged for better WBL management.

The Sorcerer has Explosive Runes + (Wand of) Dispel Magic (voluntarily failed to detonate a hundred scraps bearing runes) cheese, or barring that (Wand of) Shrink Item. He's definitely got the guaranteed one-shot move(s), but with core-only his Alter Self forms aren't going to permit flight unless he picks a nonhumanoid race. A Wand of Fly is definitely an option, but keep in mind that will last 5 minutes and move him at a speed of 60. For him it's going to come down to delivery, which a familiar can definitely help with. A Hawk is the fastest one at 60 ft. (average), so that's what he'd be using. I'll assume he has an infinite number of Explosive Runes scraps in each of an infinite number of wadded up balls, one of which is carried by his familiar and the rest are readied as weaponlike objects (move-action drawn).

The Favored Soul on the other hand could pick Animate Dead and (Wand of) Desecrate and have 24 HD worth of undead. That means something like two Dire Bat Zombies, one Lion Skeleton, and one Light Warhorse Skeleton. He can ride the horse to keep out of range, and have his other minions all move in from different directions. In this case, the Sorcerer probably doesn't stand much of a chance, especially if he's going for a close-range one-shot-you move like Explosive Runes + Dispel Magic and/or Shrink Item. The FS on his horse can keep both the Sorcerer and his familiar at range and even use a Dispel Magic of his own to destroy/detonate its Explosive Runes payload so the Sorcerer blows himself up.

The Sorcerer will probably have a difficult time taking out the undeads, and even if the FS doesn't dispel the runes for an early win. The FS can keep his distance until the Sorcerer's Fly (and charges) runs out, and he can even spam spells and/or wands as his mount tirelessly carries him away. I honestly don't see the Sorcerer winning this, regardless of available cheese in core.

[Snowbluff]

Undead really suck.

A more viable strat would be an Orb or a Magic Missile.

[dextercorvia]

I will say, in favor of the Favored Soul, that it gets considerably more spells known. The spell list thing is really a factor, but from 5th level on, a Favored Soul that worships a pantheon can use Substitute Domain to cherry pick spells known from the various domains at each level.

The Sorcerer is the more powerful choice, however. The Sorcerer list is just that strong.

[toapat]

Undead really suck.

A more viable strat would be an Orb or a Magic Missile.

with Core spells only:

This is significantly onesided:

The only offense the FVS can have at this level from spells are short duration buffs, such as Divine Favor, but they have Bestow Curse, which if nothing else, will be able to strip the Sorcerer of their top spellcasting

Sorcerers, comparatively, have a plethora of rays, magic missile, fireball, and Fly

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Undead really suck.

A more viable strat would be an Orb or a Magic Missile.

Undead are free, FS 6 gets three 3rd level spells known and he can make them plenty ahead of time to have all his 3rd level spell slots available for the fight. He can cast Silence on one of his bats and tell it ready a (partial) charge for when the Sorcerer speaks and gestures at the same time to automatically interrupt him.

Orbs aren't core. The Sorcerer can throw 3d4+3 at once in Magic Missiles, or a 4d6 Ray of Flame, or a 6d6 Fireball or Lightning Bolt. Assuming he gets proper conditions to use Web, he could keep 2/3 of the undead off of him or he could stick the FS, but that's assuming he doesn't get ruined by the silent bat.

The FS can targeted Dispel Magic the Sorcerer, and he's going to be flanked and beat on by the undead. The FS can then just ready to counterspell with Dispel Magic for a bit while his undead murder the Sorcerer. He gets all good saves so it'll be hard to get a save-or-lose to stick to him, meanwhile he can spam Sound Burst for stuns or just have his undead sunder the Sorcerer's spell component pouch. It's pretty much a win for the Favored Soul, no matter what the Sorcerer does.

[Snowbluff]

Except each tactic works both ways.

Dispel has only a 50% of working, regardless. As long as it's up to rolls, the fight can go either way.

The undead are either:

Skeleton, with low HD and bad BaB

or

Zombies, with better HD, but bad actions.

Sorcerer has longer ranger on his Fireball (and Magic Missile) than a FS has on his Sound Burst, so maybe if the Sorc puts some distance between him and the FS (who still doesn't exist), the fight would probably go to him before the FS can hit him with anything.

Idk, it's just flying or 400+ range fireballs sounds like an F22 when compared to a bunch of half-eaten lions and fireworks.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The FS can bring a Wand of Dispel Magic at caster level 10, for a 70% chance to dispel.

A Lion Skeleton gets 2 claws +6, 1d4+5, Bite +1, 1d8+2, versus the Sorcerer's AC of.... Mage Armor +4, Shield +4, Dex +4, or 22, so a 25% change to hit per claw and a 5% chance to hit with the bite if the Sorcerer goes for Dex 18. A Dire Bat Zombie gets Bite +7, 1d8+6, and it's probably going to charge every round, which means a 40% chance to hit the Sorcerer if he maxes Dex. The FS can also Bull's Strength each of those ahead of time, for another +10% to hit and ~+2 damage.

The FS will have Resist Fire 10 as a class feature, and CL 6 Fireball does an average of 21 damage on a failed save. He's probably not going to be taking much damage at all from that with all good saves.

It's still in favor of the Favored Soul.

[Snowbluff]

The FS can bring a Wand of Dispel Magic at caster level 10, for a 70% chance to dispel.

A Lion Skeleton gets 2 claws +6, 1d4+5, Bite +1, 1d8+2, versus the Sorcerer's AC of.... Mage Armor +4, Shield +4, Dex +4, or 22, so a 25% change to hit per claw and a 5% chance to hit with the bite if the Sorcerer goes for Dex 18. A Dire Bat Zombie gets Bite +7, 1d8+6, and it's probably going to charge every round, which means a 40% chance to hit the Sorcerer if he maxes Dex. The FS can also Bull's Strength each of those ahead of time, for another +10% to hit and ~+2 damage.

The FS will have Resist Fire 10 as a class feature, and CL 6 Fireball does an average of 21 damage on a failed save. He's probably not going to be taking much damage at all from that with all good saves.

It's still in favor of the Favored Soul.

Woah. Leave items out of this. A Sorc can bring higher CL versions of his spells as well, in that case, evening it back to 50%, or just bring HIGHER CL, dropping it below 50%.

The FS still has to sprint to reach the Sorc with the Dispel anyway, using the Fireball Strat.

[Kane0]

Lol, and people whinge that these classes suck...

At level 6 there is already flight and good spells on hand, the poor level tank is in the dust by now.

[Snowbluff]

Lol, and people whinge that these classes suck...

At level 6 there is already flight and good spells on hand, the poor level tank is in the dust by now.

Suck is relative term when discussing T2 classes. :smalltongue:

Sorc does have quite a few good spell that would be tricky for a Mustard Soldier to counter as well, like Invisibility, Mirror Image, and Ray of Enfeeblement (Makes it hard to get around). Invisibility alone turns in into a longer game.

[dextercorvia]

In a pure PvP, FS gets Silence, which answers the long range tactics. It's not the kind of spell that I would normally pick for a FS in a game, but caster vs. caster, kind of seems like a no-brainer.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

In a pure PvP, FS gets Silence, which answers the long range tactics. It's not the kind of spell that I would normally pick for a FS in a game, but caster vs. caster, kind of seems like a no-brainer.

Silence either offers a Will save or can be bypasses by a move action unless you stick him in place first. Targeting a caster's strong save with a spell that does nothing when you fail is not a smart move.

I also concur, Sorcerer will dominate this in so many ways. Grease + Scorching Ray. Target the Favored Soul's poor save, and probably low stat since they tend to clank around in heavy armor. Now that you have him in place, Scorching Ray him down. Or... Fireball from outside range of any spell the Favored Soul has access to.

For some cheese, you can try using the Explosive Runes Book Bomb. You might dispel one or two of the effects, but enough are going to go off that the favored soul is gone.

The problem with the Favored Soul is that it really doesn't have any access to any shutdown or damage output. The Sorcerer... does.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Woah. Leave items out of this. A Sorc can bring higher CL versions of his spells as well, in that case, evening it back to 50%, or just bring HIGHER CL, dropping it below 50%.

The FS still has to sprint to reach the Sorc with the Dispel anyway, using the Fireball Strat.

His mount can sprint up for him, and then he's in range to dispel with his own action. The Sorcerer won't even be flying if you leave items out of it, since his only 3rd level spell known will be Fireball. It's not like they'll do much anyway, the FS might take all of fifteen damage by the time the Sorcerer has run out of those.

[HunterOfJello]

If the Favored Soul is Undead focused, then he'd be taken down quickly by an anti-undead focused Sorcerer.

Half Undead + Command Undead are highly effective spells to counter unintelligent undead. Command Undead alone can turn the tide of an army of undead against itself.

Glitterdust is on the table too.

Sorcerers also get Alter Self, which is a very strong spell to have. There are playable Outsiders in Core like the Aasimar, who could turn into a Xill, Mephit, or other forms for combat. You can also use it on your familiar to get some decent forms.

Honestly, Fly + Command Undead + Rays and ranged attacks could take out most Favored Soul builds nevermind Invisibility. The rest is arguments over Dispel Magic tactics.

[gr8artist]

Does the move action to direct a Flaming Sphere reveal you if you're invisible? I would assume not, which makes me think the Sorceror could use Flaming Sphere to play D.O.T. and kite the FVS while invisible.
Scorching ray at this level fires two shots, I think. What's that? 8d6 damage with a pair of touch attacks?
Extended acid arrow? Touch... now you take 12d4 acid damage. I'm going to go hide in the corner.
Stick the FVS with a couple str debuffs and he'll collapse under the weight of his own armor.
What about the wand monkey trick? We've got some feats to play around with, could the familiar use a wand?
CSW would slow things down, 3d8+6, but the Sorc is a DPS machine. Magic missile deals 3d4+3... only 9 points less on average. And you can do it a lot from a great distance.
Undead have darkvision, right? Obscuring mists still gives the Sorc some safety.

My money's on the Arcane DPS factory, thanks.

[prufock]

Familiars. Sorcerers have them, Favored Souls don't. That means Sorcerers have twice as many actions in a round as Favored Souls. More actions = more win. And given decent choice of familiar (one that can speak and/or manipulate objects), you can actually use those extra actions effectively... UMD anyone or even a use-activated item means double the spells per round.

[dextercorvia]

Silence either offers a Will save or can be bypasses by a move action unless you stick him in place first. Targeting a caster's strong save with a spell that does nothing when you fail is not a smart move.

This was to counter long range fireball tactics. A sorcerer has the same chance of passing a will save as a favored soul has of passing a reflex save, which means (with fire resistance) that it is a coin toss who affects whom first. The difference between tactics is that the FS has more 2nd level slots, and if he gets it off, shuts down the sorcerer, while the sorcerer might deal ~10 damage, if the FS fails a save.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If it were later in the game, I'd say sorc hands down, same as everyone else

but at level 6? That's a bit of a toss-up. Probably still give it to the sorcerer for being able to start the encounter(s) from a bit further away, terrain allowing.

[LTwerewolf]

This was to counter long range fireball tactics. A sorcerer has the same chance of passing a will save as a favored soul has of passing a reflex save, which means (with fire resistance) that it is a coin toss who affects whom first. The difference between tactics is that the FS has more 2nd level slots, and if he gets it off, shuts down the sorcerer, while the sorcerer might deal ~10 damage, if the FS fails a save.

Favored souls are more MAD than sorcerers. The likelihood of them having a good cha, wis, AND dex is pretty miniscule; however the likelihood of a sorc having the force of personality feat (assuming both are built specifically for this duel) is pretty high, so the sorc is more likely to make his save than the FS based on ability scores. It would not be unreasonable to say the sorc would have a +11 to will save against the FS's save of 19.

[dextercorvia]

Favored souls are more MAD than sorcerers. The likelihood of them having a good cha, wis, AND dex is pretty miniscule; however the likelihood of a sorc having the force of personality feat (assuming both are built specifically for this duel) is pretty high, so the sorc is more likely to make his save than the FS based on ability scores. It would not be unreasonable to say the sorc would have a +11 to will save against the FS's save of 19.

Silence is not mind-affecting, so Force of Personality won't apply. In addition, CAdv is not an approved source. Wisdom is going to be, at best a tertiary ability for the Sorcerer (Cha>Dex and/or Con>Wis) the same as Dex will be for the Favored Soul. At worst, we are talking about a 1 point difference on the save.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Silence is not mind-affecting, so Force of Personality won't apply. In addition, CAdv is not an approved source. Wisdom is going to be, at best a tertiary ability for the Sorcerer (Cha>Dex and/or Con>Wis) the same as Dex will be for the Favored Soul. At worst, we are talking about a 1 point difference on the save.

Fireball still does guaranteed damage vs target that has no evasion. If he pops Resist Fire, switch to Lightning Bolt. Either way, you're dealing out damage when he makes the save, and damage when he misses his save.

The Silence? Hit or miss.

Personally, I'd take Scorching Ray and Lightning Bolt. Pop him with Scorching Ray, make him pop Resist Fire. Then hit him with Lightning Bolt.

[Cranthis]

He is right about the source. For this Versus, only Core is allowed. The only thing out of core for this is the Favored Soul class itself, and its abilities.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Again, this is a Sorcerer 6 (one 3rd level spell known) vs a Favored Soul 6 (two more spells known per spell level than the Sorcerer), Core-only (PHB, MM, DMG). There's no such thing as switching from Fireball to Lightning Bolt, he can only pick one of those two as a spell known. The Favored Soul has a permanent Resist Energy 10 as a class feature, which if he chooses Fire the Sorcerer loses his long-range damage. A spell that deals 6d6 damage averages at 21 and does a max of 36, the FS has all good saves and resistance 10 so that damage will be pitiful at best. If the Sorcerer learns an offensive 3rd level spell he can't even get Fly, and there are no flying forms for Alter Self for a +0 LA core-only character.

Silence isn't being cast directly on the Sorcerer, it's being cast on a Dire Bat Zombie that's ordered to ready a partial charge on the sorcerer if it sees him both speaking and gesturing. Considering Command Undead from a 6th level caster has a range of 40 ft., and that bat's fly speed is 40 ft., there's absolutely no way that Sorcerer will be able to cast that spell on it. There are two of those bats, by the way, both of which would have Silence cast on them. There's no saving throw, the Sorcerer just can't cast spells with verbal components. Add on a (silent) Lion Skeleton, and a FS spamming Fort save-or-stun every round, and that Sorcerer doesn't stand a chance.

[Snowbluff]

What if the Sorc kill the bats first? It can out fly them, and Magic Missile has a far greater ranger than their charge. Even if the Fresh Sauerkraut manages to dispel Fly, the sorc can featherfall.

The FS still has no actual kill option. Or any defense versus Magic Missile (no Nightshield).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Again, this is a Sorcerer 6 (one 3rd level spell known) vs a Favored Soul 6 (two more spells known per spell level than the Sorcerer), Core-only (PHB, MM, DMG). There's no such thing as switching from Fireball to Lightning Bolt, he can only pick one of those two as a spell known. The Favored Soul has a permanent Resist Energy 10 as a class feature, which if he chooses Fire the Sorcerer loses his long-range damage. A spell that deals 6d6 damage averages at 21 and does a max of 36, the FS has all good saves and resistance 10 so that damage will be pitiful at best. If the Sorcerer learns an offensive 3rd level spell he can't even get Fly, and there are no flying forms for Alter Self for a +0 LA core-only character.

Silence isn't being cast directly on the Sorcerer, it's being cast on a Dire Bat Zombie that's ordered to ready a partial charge on the sorcerer if it sees him both speaking and gesturing. Considering Command Undead from a 6th level caster has a range of 40 ft., and that bat's fly speed is 40 ft., there's absolutely no way that Sorcerer will be able to cast that spell on it. There are two of those bats, by the way, both of which would have Silence cast on them. There's no saving throw, the Sorcerer just can't cast spells with verbal components. Add on a (silent) Lion Skeleton, and a FS spamming Fort save-or-stun every round, and that Sorcerer doesn't stand a chance.

Or... as a Sorcerer, I choose Flight as my one 3rd level spell known, and proceed to be completely immune to anything he tries. From there, I could be using a Heavy Crossbow, and it wouldn't matter.

Animate Undead requires the specific corpses being present, and requires more prep-time than allotted. However, a simple heavy crossbow takes care of the problem.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Assuming the Sorcerer has Cha 20, he'll get eight 1st level spells. He deals 3d4+3 damage with Magic Missile, for an average of 10.5 damage per spell slot. A Dire Bat Zombie has 8 HD, so the same HP as an Ogre Zombie: 55. With above-average rolls he'll have to spend five of his eight Magic Missiles to kill just one of those.

The Sorcerer is just downright incapable of winning this. The FS has two Dire Bat Zombies, a Lion Skeleton, a Light Warhorse Skeleton, and his own melee capabilities, plus spell slots for Searing Light (average 13.5 damage), Sound Burst (4.5 damage average, Fort save or stun), or just plain ol' Inflict spells. He could easily just save his spell slots for Cures and melee the Sorcerer to death.


Or... as a Sorcerer, I choose Flight as my one 3rd level spell known, and proceed to be completely immune to anything he tries. From there, I could be using a Heavy Crossbow, and it wouldn't matter.

Animate Undead requires the specific corpses being present, and requires more prep-time than allotted. However, a simple heavy crossbow takes care of the problem.

On a Light Warhorse Skeleton, the Sorcerer will never even catch the FS. He'll run out of Fly duration and spell slots for it eventually, but skeletons never get tired.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Assuming the Sorcerer has Cha 20, he'll get eight 1st level spells. He deals 3d4+3 damage with Magic Missile, for an average of 10.5 damage per spell slot. A Dire Bat Zombie has 8 HD, so the same HP as an Ogre Zombie: 55. With above-average rolls he'll have to spend five of his eight Magic Missiles to kill just one of those.

The Sorcerer is just downright incapable of winning this. The FS has two Dire Bat Zombies, a Lion Skeleton, a Light Warhorse Skeleton, and his own melee capabilities, plus spell slots for Searing Light (average 13.5 damage), Sound Burst (4.5 damage average, Fort save or stun), or just plain ol' Inflict spells. He could easily just save his spell slots for Cures and melee the Sorcerer to death.

On a Light Warhorse Skeleton, the Sorcerer will never even catch the FS. He'll run out of Fly duration and spell slots for it eventually, but skeletons never get tired.

Where is he getting all those corpses from in the first place? Again, out of bounds for this exercise.

[dextercorvia]

What if the Sorc kill the bats first? It can out fly them, and Magic Missile has a far greater ranger than their charge. Even if the Fresh Sauerkraut manages to dispel Fly, the sorc can featherfall.

The FS still has no actual kill option. Or any defense versus Magic Missile (no Nightshield).

I'd risk targeting the sorcerer. With Fire Resitance, the FS has shut down the longest range damage spell that the sorcerer could bring, and the most efficient damage spell in low level core. I'm not worried about him plinking away at my d8 HD with magic missile. If I get Silence up the game is over. My best estimate is that the Sorcerer will have a +7 will save, unless he goes for something like Iron Will -- probably leaving another. Without specializing in Silence, the Favored Soul can be rocking a 17-18 DC (20-22 Wis depending on item or buff round).

As far as kill strategies go, the FS is fairly gish. Once the sorcerer is silenced, smashing face would be an acceptable strategy.

I'm not saying that the FS is strictly better, but I think it has a real shot here.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Where is he getting all those corpses from in the first place? Again, out of bounds for this exercise.

Don't go making up rules for the Sorcerer's benefit. Just like characters get permanent gear, just like the Sorcerer can get a permanent familiar, a character can use his class features to create permanent undead minions from monsters he easily could have killed by this level.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Don't go making up rules for the Sorcerer's benefit. Just like characters get permanent gear, just like the Sorcerer can get a permanent familiar, a character can use his class features to create permanent undead minions from monsters he easily could have killed by this level.

Fine. Sorcerer WBLomancy's up a pack of Magebred critters. My pack kills your pack. Next.

[Cranthis]

I am not going to dictate whether or not their were sufficient corpses for the Sorcerer to undeadify, but I will say that's a cheap move.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fine. Sorcerer WBLomancy's up a pack of Magebred critters. My pack kills your pack. Next.

Nope, the FS can WBLomancy the same kinds of critters (Magebred isn't core) which combined with his undead minions will create a superior force. Try to at least stick to using each character's own class features, because that's what these kinds of challenges are about.

[Snowbluff]

I'd risk targeting the sorcerer. With Fire Resitance, the FS has shut down the longest range damage spell that the sorcerer could bring, and the most efficient damage spell in low level core. I'm not worried about him plinking away at my d8 HD with magic missile. If I get Silence up the game is over. My best estimate is that the Sorcerer will have a +7 will save, unless he goes for something like Iron Will -- probably leaving another. Without specializing in Silence, the Favored Soul can be rocking a 17-18 DC (20-22 Wis depending on item or buff round).

As far as kill strategies go, the FS is fairly gish. Once the sorcerer is silenced, smashing face would be an acceptable strategy.

I'm not saying that the FS is strictly better, but I think it has a real shot here.

FS is a terrible gish! 3/4 BaB doesn't cut it in Core only. If silence hits, the Sorc can still Fly/run (Expeditious Retreat) away anyway. The FS is probably wearing heavier armor anyway, exacerbating his inability to engage in melee. A bow would be a much better bet.

3d4+3 averages 10 damage versus the Fried Snickers' 26 HP. 1/3 of it's health is troubling. It gets worse if the Sorc hands a Wand of Magic Missile to his companion. And that's assuming the FS has 14 Con (probably thanks to a buff).

I'm saying the Sorc is Straight up better, but the FS has a chance. It's just it's tactic aren't as perfect as Bifi says.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Command Undead is a 2nd level Sorcerer spell. Your undead are now my undead, starting with the flying ones you arbitrarily assume you have that are the only ones that can threaten me. And hey, look! Enlarge Spell has a LA +1! So that's only a 3rd level spell, so I do get it off after all

But hey, thanks for the minions, have a nice day!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Command Undead is a 2nd level Sorcerer spell. Your undead are now my undead, starting with the flying ones you arbitrarily assume you have that are the only ones that can threaten me. And hey, look! Enlarge Spell has a LA +1! So that's only a 3rd level spell, so I do get it off after all

But hey, thanks for the minions, have a nice day!

Again, Command Undead has a range of 40 ft. There are Zombie Dire Bats with a fly speed of 40 ft, Silence cast on them, and they're readied to partial charge the Sorcerer if he both speaks and gestures. That means the Sorcerer's Command Undead spell is 100% guaranteed to be interrupted. Also again, the FS can ready to counterspell with Dispel Magic, or even take Improved Counterspell and get a wide variety of schools and can still fall back on Dispel Magic if necessary. Every round the Sorcerer fails to cast, and undead beat on him.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Again, Command Undead has a range of 40 ft. There are Zombie Dire Bats with a fly speed of 40 ft, Silence cast on them, and they're readied to partial charge the Sorcerer if he both speaks and gestures. That means the Sorcerer's Command Undead spell is 100% guaranteed to be interrupted. Also again, the FS can ready to counterspell with Dispel Magic, or even take Improved Counterspell and get a wide variety of schools and can still fall back on Dispel Magic if necessary. Every round the Sorcerer fails to cast, and undead beat on him.

And the Sorcerer is readied to Command them if they get within 80'. Your point? Or did you miss that from the post you quoted?

Also, to whomever suggested gishing the Sorcerer... go ahead and try to Gish with him. You have a sword. I have Shocking Grasp. You're doing 1d8+(strength mod). I'm doing 5d6. Let's see who goes down first.

[dextercorvia]

FS is a terrible gish! 3/4 BaB doesn't cut it in Core only. If silence hits, the Sorc can still Fly/run (Expeditious Retreat) away anyway. The FS is probably wearing heavier armor anyway, exacerbating his inability to engage in melee. A bow would be a much better bet.

3d4+3 averages 10 damage versus the Fried Snickers' 26 HP. 1/3 of it's health is troubling. It gets worse if the Sorc hands a Wand of Magic Missile to his companion. And that's assuming the FS has 14 Con (probably thanks to a buff).

I'm saying the Sorc is Straight up better, but the FS has a chance. It's just it's tactic aren't as perfect as Bifi says.

Forcing your opponent to run away counts as a win in most matches. A bow would be fine. 3/4 is fine compared to 1/2. Let the Sorcerer choose Fly for his only 3rd level spells as it means that he is limited in his assault capability.

I'm calculating 6th level Favored Soul HP as 8+4.5*5=30.5 without a Con bonus. With Con that is going to be over 40 Perhaps you were thinking of the poor Sorcerer with only 4+2.5*5+ Con HP.

The sorcerer definitely has the better spells available, but is limited to a very few of them. The FS can bring a variety of tactics into the match.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Forcing your opponent to run away counts as a win in most matches. A bow would be fine. 3/4 is fine compared to 1/2. Let the Sorcerer choose Fly for his only 3rd level spells as it means that he is limited in his assault capability.

I'm calculating 6th level Favored Soul HP as 8+4.5*5=30.5 without a Con bonus. With Con that is going to be over 40 Perhaps you were thinking of the poor Sorcerer with only 4+2.5*5+ Con HP.

The sorcerer definitely has the better spells available, but is limited to a very few of them. The FS can bring a variety of tactics into the match.

You close with the Sorcerer. You start eating 5d6 from Shocking Grasp. If you switch your Resist Energy to Lightning, you suddenly start eating 8d6 from Scorching Ray. Lose/lose.

[dextercorvia]

Also, to whomever suggested gishing the Sorcerer... go ahead and try to Gish with him. You have a sword. I have Shocking Grasp. You're doing 1d8+(strength mod). I'm doing 5d6. Let's see who goes down first.

That was gishing after hitting him with a Silence.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That was gishing after hitting him with a Silence.

Sorcerers are much better equipped to ignore that with Silent Spell, although it somewhat hurts his mobility since he has to use a full-round action.

This also pre-supposes that your Silence lands, which is by no means guaranteed.

[dextercorvia]

You close with the Sorcerer. You start eating 5d6 from Shocking Grasp. If you switch your Resist Energy to Lightning, you suddenly start eating 8d6 from Scorching Ray. Lose/lose.

I switched to a bow, since everyone keeps harping on range. However, he isn't doing either from inside of a Silence.

Also, you aren't getting a CL boost in core to rock that 8d6 from Scorching Ray.

[Zonugal]

Good to see that the Sorcerer supporters are assuming the Sorcerer has any & every spell needed for any plausible situation.

Because a 6th-level Sorcerer doesn't have to be economical or practical with their spell choices...

[dextercorvia]

This also pre-supposes that your Silence lands, which is by no means guaranteed.

It is a little better than 50/50, but no one has posited a sorcerer strategy that wins in one round yet.

Silent spell is going to hurt mobility a lot.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

And the Sorcerer is readied to Command them if they get within 80'. Your point?

Also, go ahead and try to Gish with him. You have a sword. I have Shocking Grasp. You're doing 1d8+(strength mod). I'm doing 5d6. Let's see who goes down first.

Command. Undead. Has. A. Maximum. Range. Of. 40. Feet. The FS can actually ready an action to cast Silence on a point in space if the Sorcerer casts, and automatically interrupt him. From there the Sorcerer gets attacked by undead minions, and is forced to eat an AoO or spend a round retreating to get out of the Silence.

Everything I've brought up for the Favored Soul to do can work with everything else that's been suggested for him, no opportunity costs. Everything that's been brought up for the Sorcerer to do is almost completely exclusive of any other strategies he could be using, due to his severely limited spells known. Sorcerer is just not an adaptable class at this level in core only, whereas the Favored Soul's strategy hasn't had to adapt to anything that the Sorcerer could try so far, other than spending the occasional yet-unpicked spell known.

As I've been saying, the Sorcerer just can't win. Even if there's some sort of trump-card play that he can use within the limitations given, the FS could easily be adapted to completely counter it. The FS just has too many threats, while the Sorcerer can't survive enough rounds to get enough damage on the FS to win.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I switched to a bow, since everyone keeps harping on range. However, he isn't doing either from inside of a Silence.

Also, you aren't getting a CL boost in core to rock that 8d6 from Scorching Ray.

Orange Prism Ioun Stone.

Silent Spell is +1 LA. Meaning Shocking Grasp is 2nd and Scorching Ray is 3rd. Granted, it is a full-round action for him, since the ACF is non-core, but it means he can do this with everything. Heck, Magic Missile is going to be 3d4+3, which is going to be more damage output than you are dealing.

Assuming he gets hit with Silence in the first place.

Command. Undead. Has. A. Maximum. Range. Of. 40. Feet. The FS can actually ready an action to cast Silence on a point in space if the Sorcerer casts, and automatically interrupt him. From there the Sorcerer gets attacked by undead minions, and is forced to eat an AoO or spend a round retreating to get out of the Silence.As I said twice already, Enlarge Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#enlargeSpell). It now has a range of 80'.


Everything I've brought up for the Favored Soul to do can work with everything else that's been suggested for him, no opportunity costs. Everything that's been brought up for the Sorcerer to do is almost completely exclusive of any other strategies he could be using, due to his severely limited spells known. Sorcerer is just not an adaptable class at this level in core only, whereas the Favored Soul's strategy hasn't had to adapt to anything that the Sorcerer could try so far, other than spending the occasional yet-unpicked spell known.Every strategy you've offered so far assumes access to resources and pre-buffing well outside of the bounds of the competition. And have been trumped.


As I've been saying, the Sorcerer just can't win. Even if there's some sort of trump-card play that he can use within the limitations given, the FS could easily be adapted to completely counter it. The FS just has too many threats, while the Sorcerer can't survive enough rounds to get enough damage on the FS to win.

The FS can't even REACH the Sorcerer. So how can he threaten him?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Orange Prism Ioun Stone.

Is 30,000 gp, whereas standard WBL at 6th is only 13,000 gp.

Scorching Ray at a high enough caster level (which he can't even reach) gets two shots at 4d6 each, for an average of 14. Versus Resistance 10 that's only averaging 8 damage per spell cast, assuming he even hits and doesn't get countered.

[Snowbluff]

Invisible Sorc + Book of Explosive Runes + Dispel Magic. Walk/Fly up the FS.Next turn, drop the box as a free action, move away, then dispel the box.

6d6 averages 21 damage, too high for Fire resistance at this level.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Is 30,000 gp, whereas standard WBL at 6th is only 13,000 gp.

Scorching Ray at a high enough caster level (which he can't even reach) gets two shots at 4d6 each, for an average of 14. Versus Resistance 10 that's only averaging 8 damage per spell cast, assuming he even hits and doesn't get countered.

Okay, you seem to be tracking the wrong conversation. I was talking to him about the folly of trying to gish a Sorcerer. Either you take 5d6 from Shocking Grasp, or 8d6 from Scorching Ray (depending on which flavor you are resistant to, lightning or fire) or 3d4+3 from Magic Missile. All of them are more than 1d8+3.


Invisible Sorc + Book of Explosive Runes + Dispel Magic. Walk/Fly up the FS.Next turn, drop the box as a free action, move away, then dispel the box.

6d6 averages 21 damage, too high for Fire resistance at this level.

Explosive Runes deals Force damage, so Fire Resistance wouldn't work anyways.

[dextercorvia]

Orange Prism Ioun Stone.

Silent Spell is +1 LA. Meaning Shocking Grasp is 2nd and Scorching Ray is 3rd. Granted, it is a full-round action for him, since the ACF is non-core, but it means he can do this with everything. Heck, Magic Missile is going to be 3d4+3, which is going to be more damage output than you are dealing.

Assuming he gets hit with Silence in the first place.

30000gp price tag. 6th level.

You aren't getting close enough to Shocking Grasp (especially without move actions). Scorching Ray is getting mostly soaked by Fire Resistance, if it hits (slightly better than even odds).

Brooch of Shielding. 1500gp.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

30000gp price tag. 6th level.

You aren't getting close enough to Shocking Grasp (especially without move actions). Scorching Ray is getting mostly soaked by Fire Resistance, if it hits (slightly better than even odds).

Brooch of Shielding. 1500gp.Since I'm flying anyways, if my ranged attacks won't work, I'll just close in on you faster than you can get away. Or I'll simply use a Heavy Crossbow and Mirror Image.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Explosive Runes deals Force damage, so Fire Resistance wouldn't work anyways.

As I said on the first page, Sorcerer tries Explosive Runes cheese, FS can throw his own dispel and the Sorcerer blows himself up.


As I said twice already, Enlarge Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#enlargeSpell). It now has a range of 80'.

Let's say he gets one of those undead commanded as a full round action. He now has two more attacking him, and one has Silence on it. The FS can just Dispel the Command Undead, or ignore it and counterspell or stun the Sorcerer every round.


Every strategy you've offered so far assumes access to resources and pre-buffing well outside of the bounds of the competition. And have been trumped.

No such rule was ever given. If the Sorcerer spent a spell known on Continual Flame, then he would have been able to cast it as many times as he wanted up to that point, limited by material components and WBL. The FS picks Animate Dead as one of his limited spells known, he animates creatures whose CRs are well below his current capabilities, so everything is perfectly plausible and absolutely permissible.


The FS can't even REACH the Sorcerer. So how can he threaten him?

Light Warhorse Skeleton, 60 ft. land speed, it can run/sprint after the Sorcerer who's got a 60 ft. fly speed and is casting full-round action metamagic spells, or at best single-moving and casting. If the Sorcerer tries to outrun the FS, his Fly spell will run out before the skeleton gets tired. While the skeletal horse is sprinting along the FS is readying to cast Silence on a point in space or just counterspell. No chance of the Sorcerer using any sort of kiting tactics.

[Kane0]

Shneeky, how many spells have you used all together so far?

Just curious.

[dextercorvia]

Invisible Sorc + Book of Explosive Runes + Dispel Magic. Walk/Fly up the FS.Next turn, drop the box as a free action, move away, then dispel the box.

6d6 averages 21 damage, too high for Fire resistance at this level.

How is your Sorcerer getting two 3rd level spells known?


Okay, you seem to be tracking the wrong conversation. I was talking to him about the folly of trying to gish a Sorcerer. Either you take 5d6 from Shocking Grasp, or 8d6 from Scorching Ray (depending on which flavor you are resistant to, lightning or fire) or 3d4+3 from Magic Missile. All of them are more than 1d8+3.


This was my fault. I should have said weapon damage, rather than gish. I simply meant that if the Sorcerer didn't have his spellcasting any more, then the Favored Soul could slap him around. Whether I do this with a Bow, Spiritual Weapon, or Searing Light, it doesn't matter.

You aren't flying after I target your fly spell with Dispel Magic.

[HunterOfJello]

Any excuse for the FS having enough time to prepare undead creatures based on lions and dire bats can be used by the Sorcerer to use Command Undead to create a much stronger army. Command Undead lasts 1day/level, so without using up spells for that day or using his cha bonus for more spells, the Sorcerer can show up with 40 unintelligent undead creatures of any HD like 40 Young Adult Red Dragon Skeletons or 40 Gray Render Zombies.

I would think that should allow us to throw all arguments about undead army usage out the window. Otherwise we're just going to get into arguments about how these spellcasters managed to track down lions, dire bats, gray renders, dragons, etc. and kill them or uncover their bones in the first place which will just get silly. We don't even know where, how, or why the two combatants are fighting in the first place.

I recommend that the upcoming Versus threads specifically dictate the terms under which classes are compared, and if they're to be fighting 1v1 then specify the degree of preparation allowed. (This 1v1 stuff gets intense on these forums.)

~

I think that FS may pull through in the end just because he has more spells known. This doesn't change the fact that the Favored Soul is still a generally pathetic class due to its inherently inferior spell list for spontaneous casting.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Any excuse for the FS having enough time to prepare undead creatures based on lions and dire bats can be used by the Sorcerer to use Command Undead to create a much stronger army. Command Undead lasts 1day/level, so without using up spells for that day or using his cha bonus for more spells, the Sorcerer can show up with 40 unintelligent undead creatures of any HD like 40 Young Adult Red Dragon Skeletons or 40 Gray Render Zombies.

I would think that should allow us to throw all arguments about undead army usage out the window. Otherwise we're just going to get into arguments about how these spellcasters managed to track down lions, dire bats, gray renders, dragons, etc. and kill them or uncover their bones in the first place which will just get silly. We don't even know where, how, or why the two combatants are fighting in the first place.

I recommend that the upcoming Versus threads specifically dictate the terms under which classes are compared, and if they're to be fighting 1v1 then specify the degree of preparation allowed. (This 1v1 stuff gets intense on these forums.)

The key difference is that Animate Dead gives him permanent minions, and they're created from creatures which he could have easily encountered and killed on his own. Command Undead has a limited duration, and saying he encountered creatures whose CR is well beyond his level is a rather extreme stretch of the imagination. Also don't forget that one Dispel Magic means all of the Sorcerer's undead minions are now his enemies.

[Snowbluff]

@Bifo He's invisible, the FS doesn't know he's there.

The Sorc can drop the book open, walk away, and READ them. That could work.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

How is your Sorcerer getting two 3rd level spells known?He isn't. He's applying a metamagic feat to a 2nd level spell to use a 3rd level spell slot. You know, spontaneous casting and all that. I was commenting to Snowbluff that if you decide to go with Explosive Runes, that it deals force not fire damage. I have yet to sink to that level of cheese, and maintain that Fly makes you pretty much immune to the FC.



This was my fault. I should have said weapon damage, rather than gish. I simply meant that if the Sorcerer didn't have his spellcasting any more, then the Favored Soul could slap him around. Whether I do this with a Bow, Spiritual Weapon, or Searing Light, it doesn't matter.

You aren't flying after I target your fly spell with Dispel Magic.

You're sure supposing that every spell is going FC's way... first you assume he's silenced, then you assume the dispel magic overcomes the sorcerer's caster level for Flight. That's a LOT of assumptions...

[Kane0]

I recommend that the upcoming Versus threads specifically dictate the terms under which classes are compared, and if they're to be fighting 1v1 then specify the degree of preparation allowed. (This 1v1 stuff gets intense on these forums.)

I think Cranthis finds it just as interesting to see how we argue as what arguments we use and the result of those arguments.

For example, almost everybody so far has assumed these two are trying to kill each other. Cranthis could have easily stated that, or perhaps he also wants to see who argues who is the better party member or other things, such as how they would approach the same dilemma.

All he said was versus, you chose to fight each other to the death :smallamused:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

@Bifo He's invisible, the FS doesn't know he's there.

The Sorc can drop the book open, walk away, and READ them. That could work.

He could only read one page at a time, destroying the entire book in the process, and he would hit himself with it. Upon dropping the book he would reveal his presence and the FS would get to roll into initiative. That's of course assuming the FS with a decent Wis, as well as all of his minions, fail the Listen check to notice the Sorcerer approaching.


You're sure supposing that every spell is going FC's way... first you assume he's silenced, then you assume the dispel magic overcomes the sorcerer's caster level for Flight. That's a LOT of assumptions...

There is no saving throw for a Silence cast on a point in space, or a creature with Silence cast on it moving close enough for the spell to affect him. That Dispel Magic is a 50/50 chance of succeeding, and the FS could do it up to three times. There are two flying undead minions anyway, and you keep insisting the Sorcerer spend full-round actions on metamagic spells.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Any excuse for the FS having enough time to prepare undead creatures based on lions and dire bats can be used by the Sorcerer to use Command Undead to create a much stronger army. Command Undead lasts 1day/level, so without using up spells for that day or using his cha bonus for more spells, the Sorcerer can show up with 40 unintelligent undead creatures of any HD like 40 Young Adult Red Dragon Skeletons or 40 Gray Render Zombies.

I would think that should allow us to throw all arguments about undead army usage out the window. Otherwise we're just going to get into arguments about how these spellcasters managed to track down lions, dire bats, gray renders, dragons, etc. and kill them or uncover their bones in the first place which will just get silly. We don't even know where, how, or why the two combatants are fighting in the first place.

I recommend that the upcoming Versus threads specifically dictate the terms under which classes are compared, and if they're to be fighting 1v1 then specify the degree of preparation allowed. (This 1v1 stuff gets intense on these forums.)

~

I think that FS may pull through in the end just because he has more spells known. This doesn't change the fact that the Favored Soul is still a generally pathetic class due to its inherently inferior spell list for spontaneous casting.

This. With Command Undead, I have a LOT more minions, at uncapped HD, than you do. That's a game of oneupmanship you are doomed to lose.

[HunterOfJello]

The key difference is that Animate Dead gives him permanent minions, and they're created from creatures which he could have easily encountered and killed on his own. Command Undead has a limited duration, and saying he encountered creatures whose CR is well beyond his level is a rather extreme stretch of the imagination. Also don't forget that one Dispel Magic means all of the Sorcerer's undead minions are now his enemies.

1. Dispel Magic only does a 30ft radius when used for Area Dispel.

2. If Dispel Magic is successful, both characters are going to die when they are overwhelmed by angry mindless skeleton dragons.

3. Do we really want to get into specifics over armies? Fine. A flying Sorcerer should be able to blast most non-flying CR 3-4 creatures to death without trouble. We'll make his stupid army 40 Ogre Zombies then. That, or maybe the Sorcerer just happened to come across a graveyard full of Tarrasque Skeletons who he Command Undead's one at a time until he has 40 of them.

[Cranthis]

I think Cranthis finds it just as interesting to see how we argue as what arguments we use and the result of those arguments.

For example, almost everybody so far has assumed these two are trying to kill each other. Cranthis could have easily stated that, or perhaps he also wants to see who argues who is the better party member or other things, such as how they would approach the same dilemma.

All he said was versus, you chose to fight each other to the death :smallamused:

:smallwink:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This. With Command Undead, I have a LOT more minions, at uncapped HD, than you do. That's a game of oneupmanship you are doomed to lose.

I've already addressed that. It's completely implausible that the Sorcerer would encounter undead whose CR is well above his character level, whereas the FS could have easily encountered and killed the creatures he's animated while on his way to his current level. One Dispel Magic and that Sorcerer is the closest living creature to a bunch of angry uncontrolled undead whose CR is well above his character level.

This is not my character versus your character, it's about which class would be the most likely victor. I've maintained that it's the Favored Soul, and for good reason. You've made this a personal competition, which it's not.

[dextercorvia]

He isn't. He's applying a metamagic feat to a 2nd level spell to use a 3rd level spell slot. You know, spontaneous casting and all that. I was commenting to Snowbluff that if you decide to go with Explosive Runes, that it deals force not fire damage. I have yet to sink to that level of cheese, and maintain that Fly makes you pretty much immune to the FC.


I was responding to Snowbluff, who was using Explosive Runes and Dispel Magic. Of course, at that point, there is no way he also has Fly.


You're sure supposing that every spell is going FC's way... first you assume he's silenced, then you assume the dispel magic overcomes the sorcerer's caster level for Flight. That's a LOT of assumptions...

No, I said that it was reasonable to take at least 2 rounds to hit the Sorcerer with the Silence. Likewise, if flight is hurting my ability to crush him, another 2 rounds to dispel won't hurt anything. Since none of your damage spells are going to hurt me much, (and I'm the one with the ability to heal), I can afford to wait.

[Snowbluff]

He could repeat the process as much has he wants. Expeditious Retreat gives better speed, and the FS's Silence spells on his bats keep them from hearing his approach.

He could have his familar, with it's improved evasion, read the runes. The Sorc is 15 feat away, while his familiar is 10 when it reads the runes (if you have to be 10 feet away to read them). It doesn't take any damage, since the Sorc tanked his Cha to keep the save low.

For multiple uses, a tablet/book cover of a hard material may be used, such as adamantine. The medium for the runes is not destroyed for each reading, allowing the familiar to continue reading havoc on the FS.

[HunterOfJello]

I've already addressed that. It's completely implausible that the Sorcerer would encounter undead whose CR is well above his character level, whereas the FS could have easily encountered and killed the creatures he's animated while on his way to his current level. One Dispel Magic and that Sorcerer is the closest living creature to a bunch of angry uncontrolled undead whose CR is well above his character level.

This is not my character versus your character, it's about which class would be the most likely victor. I've maintained that it's the Favored Soul, and for good reason. You've made this a personal competition, which it's not.

Even plausibly met CR creatures like Ogre Zombies or Owlbear Skeletons when amassed to 40 in number would be overwhelming. Command Undead also doesn't require the Sorc to kill the enemy, it only requires them to meet an unintelligent undead and cast the spell before the Sorc dies. Command Undead can also be renewed on creatures to keep an army up. While 40 Red Dragons Skeletons are implausible, there are plenty of other army configurations that both aren't unreasonable at all and are overwhelming to one side under normal circumstances and overwhelming to both sides if successfully dispelled.

However, I only bring all of this up to point out how bad an idea it is to bring armies into matches.

Once again, I also agree that the FS has the edge purely because of spells known. Sorcerer has 7 4 2 1 for spells known while the FS has 7 5 4 3. That many extra 2nd and 3rd level spells is what would make the difference. Unfortunately, those spells known slots are too often wasted on healing or highly subpar damage spells in real games.

[Kane0]

:smallwink:

Lol I can just imagine you smiling and laughing at the debate taking place at the moment.

Quite the thought exercise you've made here.

[Cranthis]

Lol I can just imagine you smiling and laughing at the debate taking place at the moment.

Quite the thought exercise you've made here.

Thats why I started Versus. People get to express their opinions, and have a fun debate. The fact that its entertaining was just a bonus :smallbiggrin:

[Darius Kane]

Lol I can just imagine you smiling and laughing at the debate taking place at the moment.
That better not be true, because that is considered trolling. Just saying.

[toapat]

Thats why I started Versus. People get to express their opinions, and have a fun debate. The fact that its entertaining was just a bonus :smallbiggrin:

you should make a Vrs Tracking thread, perhaps with divisions

[Cranthis]

you should make a Vrs Tracking thread, perhaps with divisions

I am intrigued. What exactly do you mean?

[Cranthis]

That better not be true, because that is considered trolling. Just saying.

Me being entertained has nothing to do with the true purpose of this thread.

[toapat]

I am intrigued. What exactly do you mean?

like the Playoff prediction trees, march madness trees.

also a master thread for linking to and sigging

[HunterOfJello]

I am intrigued. What exactly do you mean?

I assume, something like:
http://www.newerth.com/clemens/PuGCup/2011/PuGCup2011SingleElimination.png

Assuming you go that far, I'd keep things in appropriate divisions. Pure Classes, only similar class types being compared, etc.

Off the top of my haead, spontaneous casters would include Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman, Spontaneous Druid, Spontaneous Cleric, Bard/Sumlime Chord, Shugenja, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage. I may be missing some.

[Cranthis]

This works for me. You guys want it, I can do it. It will probably be after a few more regular Versus. But I think I know what I will start with.

[Cranthis]

Well, I have put up a Master Thread for Versus! I would link it here, but I still have no idea how to do the single word link.

[Cranthis]

Also, I put the list of the winning classes on the Master thread:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259384

[Cranthis]

Last note: This Versus has been the most successful so far, getting all the way to 3 pages of debate!

[dextercorvia]

Sorcerers have 1 3rd level spell and 2 2nd level spells known, yet somehow people are determining that they can win this by Flying with Mirror Images, lobbing Fireballs, Scorching Rays, and Commanding Undead.

I have yet to see a strategy that has the Sorcerer win a majority of the time that only uses one set of Sorcerer spells known. Can we get a sample spells known list, or two? I'll endeavor to provide the same for the the Favored Soul.

Edit: Let's say two buff rounds (pulling a number from nowhere).

[Boci]

Sorcerers have 1 3rd level spell and 2 2nd level spells known, yet somehow people are determining that they can win this by Flying with Mirror Images, lobbing Fireballs, Scorching Rays, and Commanding Undead.

I have yet to see a strategy that has the Sorcerer win a majority of the time that only uses one set of Sorcerer spells known. Can we get a sample spells known list, or two? I'll endeavor to provide the same for the the Favored Soul.

Edit: Let's say two buff rounds (pulling a number from nowhere).

I imagine it would be fly, mirror image and scorching ray. This is also a reasonable spell selection to see in a real game and not one tailored to the task at hand. Command undead could come from a scroll.

[dextercorvia]

I imagine it would be fly, mirror image and scorching ray. This is also a reasonable spell selection to see in a real game and not one tailored to the task at hand. Command undead could come from a scroll.

It is reasonable, but it means that the Sorcerer can't hurt the Favored Soul for more than about 2.5 damage per round on average (if he hits). He'd be better off with a bow. But if they start plinking at each other with ranged attacks, the FS has higher BAB, AC, and HP.

For the FS, I was thinking something like:

3rd
Dispel Magic, Searing Light, and Cure Serious Wounds

2nd
Silence, Owl's Wisdom, Spiritual Weapon, and Aid

1st
Sanctuary, Entropic Shield, Divine Favor, Cure Light Wounds, and Shield of Faith

[Boci]

It is reasonable, but it means that the Sorcerer can't hurt the Favored Soul for more than about 2.5 damage per round on average (if he hits). He'd be better off with a bow. But if they start plinking at each other with ranged attacks, the FS has higher BAB, AC, and HP.

Unless they take energy substitution (cold) at level 3, which from what I understand is a common tactic amougst sorcerous since it allows them to be blasters with minimal spells known, since few creatures are immune to both fire and cold.

[dextercorvia]

Unless they take energy substitution (cold) at level 3, which from what I understand is a common tactic amougst sorcerous since it allows them to be blasters with minimal spells known, since few creatures are immune to both fire and cold.

Core only.

[Boci]

Core only.

Magic missile for 3d4+3 (10.5) damage / round?

[toapat]

Core only.

its actually Core+Complete Divine, otherwise the short answer is Sorcerer wins by default, because FVS doesnt exist

[Boci]

its actually Core+Complete Divine, otherwise the short answer is Sorcerer wins by default, because FVS doesnt exist

I assumed it would be core + favoured soul, otherwise the FS would have a splat book, leading to them having an unfair advantage.

[Cranthis]

It is Core + the favored soul class and its abilities. I wish I could allow more, as that energy substitution is a great strategy, but the rules for this versus have been set.

[dextercorvia]

Magic missile for 3d4+3 (10.5) damage / round?

As I pointed out to StL earlier, Brooch of Shielding is quite affordable.

[Boci]

As I pointed out to StL earlier, Brooch of Shielding is quite affordable.

Is the "consumable = x 5" rule in effect? Still could afford it, but would put a larger dent in that way.

It seems the only real option its electricity damage. Shocking touch deals 17.5 damage, and empowered deals 26.25. However, its only a touch spell. But I guess with flight off the table, lightning bolt becomes an option for 21 damage, or 10.5 on a successful save.

[dextercorvia]

Is the "consumable = x 5" rule in effect? Still could afford it, but would put a larger dent in that way.

It seems the only real option its electricity damage. Shocking touch deals 17.5 damage, and empowered deals 26.25. However, its only a touch spell. But I guess with flight off the table, lightning bolt becomes an option for 21 damage, or 10.5 on a successful save.

Which is why I picked Resist energy as a spell known. Favored Soul gets some resistance for free -- and should pick Fire at this level. If the sorcerer has another flavor of damage, he can throw up a Resist Energy to block that as well. Edit: Nevermind, it made my short list, but isn't on the list that I posted.

Flight was the major advantage of the sorcerer -- so far. I'm not sure that it is wise to give that up for lightning bolt.

Regarding the consumablex5 rule, it was never stated.

[Boci]

Which is why I picked Resist energy as a spell known.

Not on the list you posted.


Flight was the major advantage of the sorcerer -- so far. I'm not sure that it is wise to give that up for lightning bolt.

Yeah, but its only worthwhile if they can do something from range.


Regarding the consumablex5 rule, it was never stated.

It makes sense to me to have such a rule, but each to their own.

[dextercorvia]

Not on the list you posted.

Yeah, I caught that, and ninja edited. It's something I'll need to revisit. I think that it would be more worthwhile than Aid.