Calculating CR for Animate Dead Minions

[Silva Stormrage]

Hello basic question, do undead generated through the animate dead spell increase the CR of an encounter? What about commanded undead through Rebuke Undead? I mean logically its the same as expending resources before the fight on magic items and for rebuke its a class feature. It wouldn't make sense (Well it would on a certain level but its not in the rules) for a level 7 wizard to give more xp than a level 7 fighter because the Wizard has class features that actually do something (Spells are counted as class features for this example).

[tyckspoon]

The rule I go by is that if the creature existed *before* the fight, it contributes to the overall Encounter Level. If an enemy uses its action *during* the fight to bring a new creature in (usually with Summon Foo spells, since most creation/Calling spells take too long to use mid-battle), then it doesn't.

[Silva Stormrage]

The rule I go by is that if the creature existed *before* the fight, it contributes to the overall Encounter Level. If an enemy uses its action *during* the fight to bring a new creature in (usually with Summon Foo spells, since most creation/Calling spells take too long to use mid-battle), then it doesn't.

Would you argue that a Druid's Animal Companion also would increase the CR then? As rebuke undead is a class feature.

[tyckspoon]

Yup. So would a Paladin's Special Mount, and so would the pack of hunting dogs trained with Handle Animal to rip your foes apart. Very basic metric- doesn't matter how the things came to be part of your fight, just whether or not you had to use an in-combat action to get them there.

[ericgrau]

I'd say an animal companion is different because the druid is expected to always have one, whereas undead minions cost money and then cost even more money when they are replaced. The alternative would be to not include them in CR but to include them under NPC wealth with a cost bump for being an expendable (normally this is 5x). This would mean that the NPC would have less money for other things.

A paladin has a disadvantage in cramped spaces since the mount won't fit and is better off with a wide unobstructed area, but I'd fold that under general terrain advantages/disadvantages.

Other than that I'd agree that during fight = no CR bump, before fight = CR bump.

[Darius Kane]

The rule I go by is that if the creature existed *before* the fight, it contributes to the overall Encounter Level. If an enemy uses its action *during* the fight to bring a new creature in (usually with Summon Foo spells, since most creation/Calling spells take too long to use mid-battle), then it doesn't.
This. It doesn't really matter where the minions came from, because if they're summoned/created/rebuked/whatever before the fight it's not much different from the DM just giving the BBEG normal minions. BUT what I mean by "before the fight" is that if the BBEG had a few rounds/minutes before the PCs came for him and he used that time to create some minions then it doesn't count as higher CR, because he used up resources (spells) that he could have used during the fight. But if he creates minions and then a day later fights the PCs with full spells AND the minions, it's higher CR.

[Silva Stormrage]

I'd say an animal companion is different because the druid is expected to always have one, whereas undead minions cost money and then cost even more money when they are replaced. The alternative would be to not include them in CR but to include them under NPC wealth with a cost bump for being an expendable (normally this is 5x). This would mean that the NPC would have less money for other things.

A paladin has a disadvantage in cramped spaces since the mount won't fit and is better off with a wide unobstructed area, but I'd fold that under general terrain advantages/disadvantages.

Other than that I'd agree that during fight = no CR bump, before fight = CR bump.

I understand the balance reason and the logic behind allowing an increase CR but I am having a hard time understanding why it should be different for an animal companion. What if say creating undead didn't take resources. For example the necromancer in question was a palemaster and could animate undead for free? He isn't wasting any resources creating the undead.

[lord_khaine]

I understand the balance reason and the logic behind allowing an increase CR but I am having a hard time understanding why it should be different for an animal companion. What if say creating undead didn't take resources. For example the necromancer in question was a palemaster and could animate undead for free? He isn't wasting any resources creating the undead.

But he is still reciving additional resources in the shape of corpses to animate, those things dont grow on tree's you know :smalltongue:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

By RAW, summoned minions do not count to the CR, because their ability to be placed on the field has already been taken into consideration when calculating the CR of the monster doing the summoning. This is in the Monster Manual.

Having said that, the CR system is already bogus because your level 10 Druid which is always walking around in Dire Bear form, with a Fleshraker pet, is the same CR 10 as a level 10 Monk, whose stats are pathetic when compared to said Fleshraker pet, much less the spellcasting Dire Bear which is the Druid.

[ericgrau]

I understand the balance reason and the logic behind allowing an increase CR but I am having a hard time understanding why it should be different for an animal companion. What if say creating undead didn't take resources. For example the necromancer in question was a palemaster and could animate undead for free? He isn't wasting any resources creating the undead.

Well then it's part of a class feature so it's already included in his CR. I wouldn't increase CR for that.

And anyone will find some kind of corpse eventually if he ever fights, as long as he's not picky. Very particular corpses ok that might not be fair for free, but random is free.

[Kelb_Panthera]

What you have to realize is that the DMG and MM guidelines for estimating CR are just that; guidelines for an estimation. Cleaving too tightly to them will fail to give you an accurate picture of the challenge a creature or set of creatures presents far too often.

What you need to ask yourself is this, "would the encounter be significantly more or less challenging for the presence or absence of this creature or these creatures?" If the answer is yes, then adjust the EL of the encounter up or down accordingly.

Only experience can teach you to accurately estimate the appropriate level for a given encounter.

[Rejakor]

CR is a terrible system anyway.

I personally don't advise using it even for ballparks - it's too wonky, and doesn't take into account optimization.