Mundane Gestlating: Balanced or Not? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-10-24, 12:06 AM

MesiDoomstalker

2012-10-24, 12:11 AM

It wouldn't really change much, unfortunately. Without more options, melee could have infinite attack bonus, but until they get the ability to move and full attack, they can still only kill one opponent at a time, and they still have zero ability to break the action economy.

Casters big advantages are:

1) They can do everything, yes even that, frequently at the same time.

2) They break the action economy too easily.

This is why I like classes like Beguiler/Dread Necro/Warmage... their spell list is specifically limited, and devoid of most of the action economy breakers. They make a solid Tier 3 caster (well, except the Warmage, who is T4 because all he can really do is blast unless you go Rainbow Warsnake).

I figured and did not expect to ever compare to tier 2+ casters with this. I do want to look at other systems, like ToB and Incarnum and how'd they would stack up and if any of them would be justifiable to tack on this Fighter Gestalt.

On ACFs: Yes, the ACFs would have to be limited or forbidden in this case (unless you choose to go straight fighter), otherwise you get wonky things. Maybe doing what RFLS suggested and just giving the affected classes the same Feat progression and limitations as a Fighter, in the same number of levels. That way, you don't give Full BAB and Good Fort to a bunch of classes that shouldn't get them. And eliminates the ACF conundrum, as they aren't Fighter Bonus Feats you can legally trade for an ACF.

Terazul

2012-10-24, 12:30 AM

With a few exceptions, Gestalting doesn't actually change too much; It usually just gives you a few other options beyond your "primary" specialty, and maybe a few extra numbers, but in general you're still limited by the action economy. It's the same thing as the Mystic Theurge problem: Yeah, you get spells from both sides (which is great and all), but you don't get more actions to use them with so you're still doing one thing at a time, usually.

This is especially true with a fighter. You get to shore up some 3/4 classes with full BAB, a slightly better hit die in some cases, and some bonus feats to help out the martial guys who need it (Archery-focused/TWF characters especially). And let's face it, I don't think anybody is getting a better skill list than they already had. I don't think someone's Fort save suddenly becoming good is going to break anything, either. Even slapping it onto the Invocation/Soulmeld/Utterance/Mystery/etc users probably won't change too much, either (Totemists will still hit stuff, Glaivelocks will still Glaive, etc).

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-10-24, 12:31 AM

I figured and did not expect to ever compare to tier 2+ casters with this. I do want to look at other systems, like ToB and Incarnum and how'd they would stack up and if any of them would be justifiable to tack on this Fighter Gestalt.

On ACFs: Yes, the ACFs would have to be limited or forbidden in this case (unless you choose to go straight fighter), otherwise you get wonky things. Maybe doing what RFLS suggested and just giving the affected classes the same Feat progression and limitations as a Fighter, in the same number of levels. That way, you don't give Full BAB and Good Fort to a bunch of classes that shouldn't get them. And eliminates the ACF conundrum, as they aren't Fighter Bonus Feats you can legally trade for an ACF.

Full gestalting with Fighter for pure melee classes like Monk and Rogue would not make them overpowered. They would at least be able to get within spitting distance of being able to compete. In particular, full BAB on a Monk would make Flurry of Misses occasionally worth it, if you had some method of either Pouncing or gaining movement and still being able to full attack.

They still won't be able to get within spitting distance of most T3+ classes, but at least it will help.

Blue Lantern

2012-10-24, 04:35 AM

I personally don't think any class without spells can be imbalanced or game breaking.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-10-24, 04:46 AM

I personally don't think any class without spells can be imbalanced or game breaking.

Well, I managed to make a Warblade that deals an arbitrary amount of damage to an arbitrary number of targets within Line of Sight by virtue of gaining 2-5 bonus attacks per swing...

But yea... even that pales compared to what a 9th level Wizard can do if he really lets go. It would, however, break most games, I think.

Blue Lantern

2012-10-24, 05:53 AM

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-10-24, 06:02 AM

I probably should start ending my post with the caveat "within a resonable amount of optimization". I always underestimate how messed character creation can be and, no offense meant, I cinge every time I am reminded.
Also, not to be nitpick, but I see the ToB manouvers as not too different from spells with a paint coating, not that I consider it a bad thing.

That particular build doesn't use maneuvers, even though it has access to them, because his regular attacks are more powerful. He gets his bonus attacks via Aptitude Weapon, mostly for Lightning Mace, Round Kick, and Boomerang Ricochet. Well, that and abusing Bloodstorm Blade's ability to treat a thrown weapon as a melee attack, which means Cleave and Sweeping Strike both come into play.

The only reason he's a Warblade is because he needed to meet the prerequsites for Bloodstorm Blade. If the PrC didn't require maneuvers and a stance, he could've been a straight-up Fighter11/Bloodstorm Blade4/War Mind5.

Ironic, isn't it? The character has access to psionic powers and initiator maneuvers... and yet he is more powerful when he ignores them.

Rejakor

2012-10-24, 11:39 AM

Given that the fighter's strengths aren't very strong, I don't think this would be too big a deal for the most part. There will still be some feat-starved builds, just not as many.

One thing to watch out for, though, is Fighter ACFs/variants; I'd suggest reviewing them to make sure you can't get e.g. Sneak Attack Fighter 20// Ninja 1/Rogue 19 (which would alternate between frighteningly strong, and completely useless, depending on targets).

Please explain how this would be frighteningly strong. By my understanding, you get something like 20d6 sneak attacks at level 20, which even on a TWF Hasted Full Attack (9 attacks), is still an underwhelming 500ish damage with specific requirements - a mailman sorc/warmage does up to 3 times this, and a charger does up to 10 times this. And they can do that to anyone. Heavy Fort Armour or a Stoneskin spell shut this combo down completely.

If you're playing in a group with semi-optimized casters, (DMM clerics, Natural Spell Druids, Incantatrix or IotSV or Invisible Spell or Spelldancer or Red Wizard or Focused Specialist wizards) i've found that even tristalt barely keeps the melee up with the casters. i.e. the breakpoint becomes like level 11 instead of level 7.

TiaC

2012-10-24, 11:52 AM

Since the real problem is one of versatility, you might be better off gestalting them with one of the lower tier subsystem users e.g. Soulborn, Divine Mind, Warlock, Binder, Truenamer:smalltongue:.

Telonius

2012-10-24, 12:09 PM

So the proposed rule would affect ...

Barbarian
Monk
Rogue
Scout
Swashbuckler
Ninja
Samurai
Knight
Possibly Factotum
Possibly Marshal
Possibly Hexblade
(Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, Warrior)

It would not affect...
Fighter (though I'm assuming the class would be removed altogether..?)
Paladin
Ranger
Soulknife
Possibly Factotum
Possibly Marshal
Possibly Hexblade

At minimum, I'd allow it for Paladins, Rangers, and Soulknives. A load of Fighter Feats isn't going to make them overpowered, but it will give them a lot more options.

So who's going to be helped most/least by the change... I think Monk and Rogue are probably going to come out best. Knight would get a lot more versatility in feat selection, and we'd probably see a lot more battlefield control builds generally (spending two feats on Combat Expertise and Improved Trip can be a hard thing in feat-starved builds).

Swashbucklers would probably drop out of existence. The only reason to take the class now is the Daring Outlaw feat; allowing Rogues a free full-BAB gestalt takes away whatever incentive was left.

kitcik

2012-10-24, 12:35 PM

Please explain how this would be frighteningly strong. By my understanding, you get something like 20d6 sneak attacks at level 20, which even on a TWF Hasted Full Attack (9 attacks), is still an underwhelming 500ish damage with specific requirements - a mailman sorc/warmage does up to 3 times this, and a charger does up to 10 times this. And they can do that to anyone. Heavy Fort Armour or a Stoneskin spell shut this combo down completely.

On that note, my 14th level monk/warblade just set our group's one round damage record with 542 last session.

Despite that, he is clearly 5th in power in the group behind the two druids, the bard, and the wizard/ranger/abjurant champion. In fact, he only set the record due to buffs received from the latter two.

However, I am better than the TWF ranger lol.

Rejakor

2012-10-24, 01:40 PM

At minimum, I'd allow it for Paladins, Rangers, and Soulknives. A load of Fighter Feats isn't going to make them overpowered, but it will give them a lot more options.

So who's going to be helped most/least by the change... I think Monk and Rogue are probably going to come out best. Knight would get a lot more versatility in feat selection, and we'd probably see a lot more battlefield control builds generally (spending two feats on Combat Expertise and Improved Trip can be a hard thing in feat-starved builds).

Swashbucklers would probably drop out of existence. The only reason to take the class now is the Daring Outlaw feat; allowing Rogues a free full-BAB gestalt takes away whatever incentive was left.

Monk doesn't come out best in anything, it's a 2 level dip for wis to AC for casters and free combat feats. Anyone using it for anything else is playing magical tea party game in the first place, and isn't coming out 'on top' in any sense of the words.

Rogues like feats but don't have the BAB for the proper feat combos so they get an overall meh.

What really comes out on top with this is all the full BAB classes (like Barbarian, or Knight) that struggled to get melee combos going without fighter bonus feats. They now.. have those feats. Yay. Casters would like it even more, as they get to set up their combos for when they buff themselves, but casters don't get this so meh.

Anyone playing Swashbuckler 20 in the first place was completely off their rocker anyway. Swashbucklers DON'T GET CLASS FEATURES PAST LEVEL 3 - THERE IS NO REASON TO PLAY ONE, AND EVEN A ROGUE SHOULD THINK TWICE OR THREE TIMES ABOUT THE FAIL THAT IS DARING OUTLAW.

RFLS

2012-10-24, 02:01 PM

Anyone playing Swashbuckler 20 in the first place was completely off their rocker anyway. Swashbucklers DON'T GET CLASS FEATURES PAST LEVEL 3 - THERE IS NO REASON TO PLAY ONE, AND EVEN A ROGUE SHOULD THINK TWICE OR THREE TIMES ABOUT THE FAIL THAT IS DARING OUTLAW.

Woah. Chill your taters, dude. Yelling's not called for, and you should amend the first part of your statement to "there is no mechanical reason," and the second part to "swashbuckler 4/rogue 16 is one of the few mechanically viable ways in which you can use the swashbuckler class." Don't shout your opinions as though they're fact, please. Actually. Just don't shout your opinions. Caps lock hurts my eyes >.>

Rejakor

2012-10-24, 02:18 PM

Then you need new eyes.

And I stand by my statement. If you're picking a class based on the name alone, then you're not playing Dungeons and Dragons - you're playing an imagination game based on the names of classes in DnD - which is fine, but it isn't DnD. So you're not playing a swashbuckler (CW class), you're playing a swashbuckler (guy who fights with a rapier, wears fancy clothes, possibly a pirate - see Pirates of the Caribbean), so you're not playing the class, you're playing the concept, which is entirely different.

You want to be a rogue 3/Swash 17 with Daring Outlaw? Have fun without your skill points, your rogue talents, or anything else that makes playing a rogue worthwhile. Enjoy your crappy melee sneak attack. Enjoy doing less damage than a level 20 fighter without leap attack. Tier 6 isn't for everyone, but hey, maybe you'll enjoy it, eh?

Telonius

2012-10-24, 02:23 PM

With the Gestalt, Rogues do get full BAB, as well as the feats necessary to pull off the combos. Likewise with Monks.

As far as Monk goes, he's still got a ways to go before he's where he needs to be. But the relative power increase is a lot bigger than (for example) Barbarian. Barbarian gains Feats and armor proficiencies he's probably not going to use. Monk gains weapon proficiencies, hit points, and BAB along with feats and the armor proficiency he's not going to use. Besides, many of the interesting Stunning Fist feats (which a regular Monk could maybe get two or three) are also Fighter feats. Freezing the Lifeblood, Rapid Stunning, Weakening Touch; it's awfully hard to build most of those into a regular Monk build without Gestalt. With Gestalt, they become options (and sooner than a regular Monk would have them, since they all have BAB requirements).

EDIT: I think we're basically in agreement about the Swashbuckler - the class is pretty terrible (as I said, usually only used in Rogue builds), and gestalting it with Fighter really doesn't offer anything particularly helpful (no HP or BAB or skills or weapon proficiencies), and some of the usually-intuitive Fighter feats will turn off the class features he already has (Power Attacking with a finesse-able weapon means he's basically stuck with needing to blow a feat on exotic weapons). The class has problems; this rule doesn't do much to fix them.

kitcik

2012-10-24, 02:44 PM

Monk doesn't come out best in anything, it's a 2 level dip for wis to AC for casters and free combat feats.

True.

Anyone using it for anything else is playing magical tea party game in the first place, and isn't coming out 'on top' in any sense of the words.

It's not a video game, so "coming out best" isn't always the goal.

It's a fantasy role-playing game (says so on the cover, or at least it used to).

If you want to play a monk, and you are not made to feel useless by your party members, then have at it.

RFLS

2012-10-24, 03:08 PM

Then you need new eyes.

I was telling you something that most people are aware of, namely that applying caps lock liberally is irritating to read.

And I stand by my statement. If you're picking a class based on the name alone, then you're not playing Dungeons and Dragons - you're playing an imagination game based on the names of classes in DnD - which is fine, but it isn't DnD. So you're not playing a swashbuckler (CW class), you're playing a swashbuckler (guy who fights with a rapier, wears fancy clothes, possibly a pirate - see Pirates of the Caribbean), so you're not playing the class, you're playing the concept, which is entirely different.

As kitcik said, coming out best isn't the goal. It's a role playing game with mechanics built to support that. Swashbuckler's mechanics (emphasis on mechanics) may be a perfect reflection of the character someone has in mind.

You want to be a rogue 3/Swash 17 with Daring Outlaw? Have fun without your skill points, your rogue talents, or anything else that makes playing a rogue worthwhile. Enjoy your crappy melee sneak attack. Enjoy doing less damage than a level 20 fighter without leap attack. Tier 6 isn't for everyone, but hey, maybe you'll enjoy it, eh?

You've either constructed a straw man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) argument, or you've managed to avoid reading what I actually said. Either way, you should have seen that the build I specified was Swashbuckler 4/ Rogue 16. This is a mechanically capable build.

In case it wasn't clear, my point is that you're out of line to tell anyone that they're off their rocker for playing <X>, especially since you were attempting to present your opinion as a fact, which, you know. It's not.

Rejakor

2012-10-24, 03:28 PM

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RFLS

2012-10-24, 03:53 PM

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Uhm. You seem to have missed something. Badly. Daring Outlaw gets you your 4th iterative, which, if you're sneak attacking, is a minimum of an extra 10d6 damage on a full attack. It also buffs the Rogue's Fort save and its HD. I'm 100% sure that a Swashbuckler 4/Rogue 16 does more damage than a Rogue 20 and has better survivability.

Mathematically, you've traded a feat slot, 16 skill points, 4 levels of good save, delayed rogue talents, delayed trap sense, delayed evasion, and delayed uncanny dodge for a feat slot, an good save, a bonus to another save, an iterative, more HP, and Int to damage. That looks like an even trade to me, even in the vaccuum assuming you're not PrCing out of Rogue.

In case you're not bothering, cancelling everything out gets you trading 4 levels of rogue talents, trap sense, delayed evasion, and delayed uncanny dodge for a +3 to a save, a 4th iterative, better HP, and Int to damage. That looks like a good trade to me.

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kitcik

2012-10-24, 04:07 PM

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Of all that, I agree with two things: 1) monks are a weak class and 2) if you had a party of all monks, it would not be level: CR appropriate.

Of the rest, particularly the bolded portions, I suggest you expand your reading list.

TuggyNE

2012-10-24, 04:08 PM

Please explain how this would be frighteningly strong. By my understanding, you get something like 20d6 sneak attacks at level 20, which even on a TWF Hasted Full Attack (9 attacks), is still an underwhelming 500ish damage with specific requirements - a mailman sorc/warmage does up to 3 times this, and a charger does up to 10 times this. And they can do that to anyone. Heavy Fort Armour or a Stoneskin spell shut this combo down completely.

Sorry, I was a little unclear. I actually meant "frighteningly strong" to a low-op group; the fact that a meager amount of optimization is sufficient to double sneak attack damage is rather disturbing if you don't have mailmen or chargers around to compare to. (Although, I would like to note in passing that stoneskin does very little to shut down sneak attack, any more than it affects charger damage, since it offers nothing but DR 10/adamantine, which applies to the entire sneak attack + weapon damage as a unit.)

Rejakor

2012-10-24, 04:23 PM

Calm the hell down. Perhaps someone wants to play an agile and intelligent duelist capable of going toe to toe with an opponent. Who knows? The point is that it's their concept, not yours, and if they say that swashbuckler best fits it, then they are correct, because they're telling you what their opinion is. Bringing character concept into this as a point against the swashbuckler is a mistake; you can't make that argument valid.

I'm sorry, are you saying that iterations of concept are only valid individually?

That there is no 'better' or 'worst' as it comes to concept?

So you're saying that Conan the Barbarian as a Druid20 is no better and no worse than Conan the Barbarian as a Rogue/Barbarian?

'an agile and intelligent duelist capable of going toe to toe with an opponent.' is a concept. Certain mechanical iterations of it will be more accurate to that sentence than others. Swashbuckler is not good at going toe to toe with an opponent. It lacks defensive options, and will be cut down in any CR appropriate encounter. Worse, other classes portray the intelligent and agile duelist better than the swashbuckler in nearly every way - rogue who relies on feinting isn't ideal, i.e. the most powerful kind of rogue, but still iterates a duelist who hunts for weak spots and strikes at them to defeat his foe far better than a swashbuckler. A dex based fighter, say a Hit and Run Tactics fighter from Drow in the underdark, relies on rendering his foe flatfooted, and unlike the swashbuckler, has the feats to do so. Even a Fighter/Duelist is better off than a swashbuckler in terms of actually fitting the goddamn archetype of an agile and intelligent duelist, and Duelist is a PrC with fleas.

The fact of the matter is, for any concept, certain classes or class combinations will fit it better than others mechanically. And Swashbuckler does not fit any concept better than other (Core even) classes. Only it's name and fluff 'fit the concept' better, and since class name and class fluff aren't even in-game concepts, welcome to being a metagamer.

Rejakor

2012-10-24, 04:49 PM

3 extra points of fort save, 2 extra hp per level (on average, so over 4 levels, 8 hp), and 1 extra BAB. Oh, and int to damage. Excuse me while I quietly don't care.

There is one, and only one, possible use for Swashbuckler. And that is when you are planning, for whatever reason, to only ever go to Rogue 5. And you're planning to take Weapon Finesse because PHBII is banned and so Feycraft isn't an option and you don't want thrown weapons for concept reasons. And you have high int for unrelated reasons. So what you do then is you take Daring Outlaw and go Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3. You pick up all the reasons to be a swashbuckler (int to damage, free weapon finesse) and get the hell out of the class. You're not planning to go pure rogue, so uncanny dodge is less good for you, and you're not delaying getting Crippling Strike so you don't mind not taking the filler rogue levels in between evasion and crippling strike.

The swashbuckler 4/rogue 16 plan, gets you BAB 16 at level 20, i.e. the level that never gets played. That gets you, with perfect two weapon fighting, i.e. a feat, 2 extra attacks. At that level, you should have 7 or so attacks already, not counting natural attacks, attacks granted by items, a braid blade, any magic effects or skill tricks or templates that grant additional attacks, etc. And that's if you're melee only. If you're willing to use ranged attacks, you should be doing about 16, since there is a class for you, and it's called Master Thrower. Which you can feel free to enter after Rogue 10, because you don't really want or need any of the rogue talents other than crippling strike.

Worse, these attacks are at your lowest iterative attack - fine if you're hitting flat footed touch AC, but that's not always possible, and a -15 to hit will tend to make you miss a fair percentage of the time.

8hp is peanuts at any level beyond first. A decent con score and con boosting items will do you in much greater stead, and given how incredibly hard enemies tend to hit for, unless you have miss chances or good AC, you're likely not going to live in melee anyway, 8hp or no 8hp.

+3 Fort might save your life, but there are seriously magic items that give +3 to fort saves that stack with your cloak of resistance... wasting four levels on it is a waste. Especially when that means you get Crippling Strike at level 14, not at level 10 when it's way awesome to have.

1 extra BAB is +1 to hit, which you could forget you even had. Hell, don't bother with weapon finesse, don't bother with daring outlaw, take weapon focus, that king of feats, and you've just gained that magical +1 to hit. Exactly the same as taking daring outlaw and 4 levels in swashbuckler.

Compare it to a 2 level dip in fighter. You lose 1d6 sneak attack, and gain 2 feats which can speed entry into anything, or make some combo available to you. That's actually worthwhile, in some circumstances. Lots of concepts could benefit from taking that dip. Swashbuckler dip at best makes you incredibly slightly better at hitting things(+1 to hit) and taking damage(8hp +3 fort -1 ref), and at the same time makes the eventual payoff of the rogue class (crippling strike) 4 levels further away. It's just not worth it. The int to damage is basically the sole redeeming feature of the class - and some int-focused rogues might go for it based on that - but not if the game is expected to go to level 10 or better. It's a short term gain for a long term loss. A massive long term loss. And most int-focused rogues are doing it for the skill points.. taking that 4 level hit on skills would be rather painful for them.

Rejakor

2012-10-24, 04:58 PM

Sorry, I was a little unclear. I actually meant "frighteningly strong" to a low-op group; the fact that a meager amount of optimization is sufficient to double sneak attack damage is rather disturbing if you don't have mailmen or chargers around to compare to. (Although, I would like to note in passing that stoneskin does very little to shut down sneak attack, any more than it affects charger damage, since it offers nothing but DR 10/adamantine, which applies to the entire sneak attack + weapon damage as a unit.)

Pretty sure, although i'd need to look it up to absolutely sure, that the non-precision-damage part of the attack needs to make it through the DR before precision damage is applied. Thus, a stoneskin, or other source of DR, can stop sneak attacks dead in the water if the basic weapon + str or whatever isn't enough to break through the DR.

That said, sure. I'm sure many low-op groups would be absolutely terrified of that build. But i'm also sure they'd instantly ban it, since I have never seen a low-op group that wasn't incredibly ban-happy. So there's no real reason for the OP to ban it, since low-op groups will do that anyway, and in the meantime, mid-op groups, where it's not particularly groundbreaking or awesome, can use it (or dungeoncrasher fighter, or hit and run fighter, or targeteer fighter, or zhentarim fighter, or whatever).

As for a meagre amount of optimization... knowing about the Sneak Attack Fighter from unearthed arcana and using it seems harder to me than finding the Leap Attack feat in Complete Warrior. Hell, i'd say you'd even find the Shock Trooper feat and think to combine the two before you'd stumble across sneak attack fighter and think to combo it with rogue like that. I mean, thumbing through Complete Warrior is a thing you'd expect a fighter or barbarian to be doing, right?

Although I suppose if you were in a SRD-only game, it would be a bit more expected.

TuggyNE

2012-10-24, 05:35 PM

Pretty sure, although i'd need to look it up to absolutely sure, that the non-precision-damage part of the attack needs to make it through the DR before precision damage is applied. Thus, a stoneskin, or other source of DR, can stop sneak attacks dead in the water if the basic weapon + str or whatever isn't enough to break through the DR.

I'd very much appreciate a source for that, because it's certainly possible I've missed it so far.

As for a meagre amount of optimization... knowing about the Sneak Attack Fighter from unearthed arcana and using it seems harder to me than finding the Leap Attack feat in Complete Warrior. Hell, i'd say you'd even find the Shock Trooper feat and think to combine the two before you'd stumble across sneak attack fighter and think to combo it with rogue like that. I mean, thumbing through Complete Warrior is a thing you'd expect a fighter or barbarian to be doing, right?

Although I suppose if you were in a SRD-only game, it would be a bit more expected.

Or, given that you're already using gestalt rules from UA, it's perhaps reasonable to consider using other UA variants? That was more or less my thought process. (Also, merely adding Leap Attack, or even Shock Trooper, will not get you 1000+ damage per round. Sorry.)

dspeyer

2012-10-24, 09:07 PM

I'd suggest making it a choice of fighter, monk or expert. That way the already violent, or the nonviolent by character concept can benefit.

RFLS

2012-10-24, 11:09 PM

Hey guys, I made a topic for the swashbuckler debate over here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14108863#post14108863) It felt like it was more than a little off-topic, and I'm interested in both questions, so uh....yeah. My bad on losing my cool earlier; it won't happen again.

Rejakor

2012-10-25, 04:15 AM

That thing with DR and sneak attack? It is an urban myth, apparently. Yay for research.

(Also, merely adding Leap Attack, or even Shock Trooper, will not get you 1000+ damage per round. Sorry.)

At level 20 it will.

Orc Barbarian 20, feats of note: Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper(+prereqs).

Str: 20 (base) + 5 (levels) +6 (enh item) + 4 (Tome) = 35

Wielding a +5 Greataxe. Since we assumed it for the rogue, we will also assume this orc has access to Boots of Speed.

This orc is a spirit lion totem orc, or he has combat brute and it's his second round of attacking. So he's PA'ing for full. He's also under the effect of a Mighty Rage, which gives him +8 str. (even without shock trooper or combat brute, with his str score, he could reasonably PA for full and not even care)

So his damage looks like this - 24 (1.5x str mod) + 5 (weapon enh) + 6.5 (avg weapon damage) + 60 (PA) = 95.5 x 5 = 477.5 damage

So yeah, just shock trooper and leap attack don't get you 1000+ damage on their own. I may have jumped the gun a bit there. It's the overall damage multipliers that tend to send it sky high, like for example being this build on a horse with a lance and the Spirited Charge feat. That instantly doubles the damage to 955 damage.

Another problem is that in the same book as these feats is Frenzied Berserker. And with that, the damage roughly doubles (thanks to supreme power attack, largely, and can be a lot more with Supreme Cleave).

There is Master Thrower for roguelikes to double their damage, but nothing much else, where chargers get valorous, spirited charge, purple dragon knight, battle derp, frenzied berserker.. it's a lot easier to accidentally crack a thousand with charging.

willpell

2012-10-25, 04:20 AM

I figured and did not expect to ever compare to tier 2+ casters with this. I do want to look at other systems, like ToB and Incarnum and how'd they would stack up and if any of them would be justifiable to tack on this Fighter Gestalt.

Incarnate is somewhat fighterish as-is in flavor terms, but has terrible BAB, and the Soulborn is just worthless, so a Fighter-Incarnate gestalt would probably be reasonably fair and fun. As-is the combat-oriented soulmelds are rather hard to get any enjoyment out of unless you're multiclassing.

TuggyNE

2012-10-25, 05:00 AM

So his damage looks like this - 24 (1.5x str mod) + 5 (weapon enh) + 6.5 (avg weapon damage) + 60 (PA) = 95.5 x 5 = 477.5 damage

That's about what my back-of-the-envelope estimate before posting was, yeah, although less detailed.

So yeah, just shock trooper and leap attack don't get you 1000+ damage on their own. I may have jumped the gun a bit there. It's the overall damage multipliers that tend to send it sky high, like for example being this build on a horse with a lance and the Spirited Charge feat. That instantly doubles the damage to 955 damage.

Another problem is that in the same book as these feats is Frenzied Berserker. And with that, the damage roughly doubles (thanks to supreme power attack, largely, and can be a lot more with Supreme Cleave).

There is Master Thrower for roguelikes to double their damage, but nothing much else, where chargers get valorous, spirited charge, purple dragon knight, battle derp, frenzied berserker.. it's a lot easier to accidentally crack a thousand with charging.

Sure, it's easier to hit 1000+ with charging. Much much easier. And charging has a much higher ceiling overall. However, I am not sure there's a simpler way to get 500-600 conditional damage on a full attack than gestalting sneak attack progressions. (Seriously, a variant class, a core base class, the TWF feats*, and a variant rule that's being assumed for this thread.) That is, I think there's a narrow band of "SO MUCH DAMAGE" that gestalted sneak attack hits easier than anything else, though it almost immediately drops off in comparative effectiveness with additional effort.

*Addendum: I just remembered that I was counting TWF/GTWF/ITWF into the estimates; leaving them out drops damage to just about the same as the charger for slightly less investment. The point stands, though not by much.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-10-25, 08:37 AM

The key here is that the highest HP of a non-epic encounter record goes to Big T at 858 hit points. More than that, and you're just wasting effort.

Single-round damage, that's not really difficult to do, particularly not with strength stacking on top of multiplier stacking. There's also size bonus stacking, which boosts the base weapon damage.

For example, we have our typical Half Giant that uses expansion on himself, augmented for the second size boost. Now then, he's starting off with a Large weapon, so you end up with a Gargantuan blade for 6d6 base damage, or an average of 19.8 average weapon damage. It can get a lot more ridiculous than that, but let's just use bare-bones.

Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack nets you 3x PA. Valorous weapon nets you 4x. So that's 80 damage per swing right there.

Of course, the size boost gives you an additional +4 Size bonus to Strength, for an extra +2 to your Str Modifier which works out to an extra +3 damage with a two-handed weapon.

So now we're looking at 27 (str mod *1.5) +5 (weapon enh) +5 (Collision) + 19.8 (avg weapon damage) + 80 = 136.8 average damage a swing or 684 on average a round.

Honestly, unless you are going to be facing Tarrasques, and you absolutely MUST take them down in one round, there's no real point in going any further.

Rejakor

2012-10-25, 09:43 AM

Well, if all your fights are one single monster with no miss chances in a room, then that's all the damage you need, yeah.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-10-25, 01:57 PM

Well, if all your fights are one single monster with no miss chances in a room, then that's all the damage you need, yeah.

If you have multiple threats, then that's when Cleave and a Spiked Chain comes in real handy.

Metahuman1

2012-10-25, 06:40 PM

My first thought would be to take a rouge on the other side, but then take some AFC's. I'd look for one that might let me score a Good will as well as a good fort in exchange for a couple of feats perhaps, and then I'd look for that sub level form races of stone, maybe using an affiliation or something to justify it, that gives a D12 hit die, and tap the dead levels artical.

Then I'd do the same for a Factotum.

Then again for a Monk.

Then I'd look for just getting the swap outs to get a good reflex and will save + the nice dead level stuff and Dungeon Crasher + Zent fighter on a barbarian.

Basically, I'd slap on as many extra passive goodies to the fighter as I could before paring it off with another warrior or a serious skill monkey to try to make a powered up badass, much as I can.