Charisma and fluff

[Darius Kane]

Purpose of this thread is twofold.
Firstly - how would you fluff permanent Cha increases throughout a characters career (by permanent I mean inherent bonuses, increases from levels and classes/prcs)? How would you explain them rp-wise? I have a hard time imagining how a person could "train" a mental stat, especially Charisma.
Secondly - as I mentioned above, Cha is a mental stat. But ignoring that for a moment, I'm interested in what actually observable (but probably purely cosmetic) changes in the characters appearance could you use as an indication of increasing Charisma?

[Jungian]

In reference to "mental" charisma:
This simply reflects how an creature/person interacts with their environment. Increasing charisma could be simply learning to communicate better, how to approach people, and start a conversation, etc...

Physically:
It could be reflected in dressing better, in features becoming more distinct or just generally improving. "My you look so distinguished with grey hair."

[LadyLexi]

Because people in the D&D world grow to be more beautiful, strong, clever or enduring by killing, stealing and otherwise making menaces of themselves.

[Flickerdart]

Charisma isn't beauty. If it were, there would be a different one for every species a character would interact with. Charisma is fundamentally a strong self-confidence and sense of self, which is why fiends typically have high Charisma (because they're badasses) and tieflings have a Charisma penalty (because they're shunned by their society). As a character topples enemy after enemy, it only makes sense that their confidence in themselves increases.

[Darius Kane]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it doesn't have to be physical. It is said that a girl in love becomes more beautiful. I doubt that it's meant that love changes her physical appearance.

[Cruiser1]

how would you fluff permanent Cha increases throughout a characters career? I have a hard time imagining how a person could "train" a mental stat, especially Charisma.
The Tome of Leadership and Influence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#tomeofLeadershipandInfluence), which grants inherent bonuses to CHA, is a "ponderous book detailing suggestions for persuading and inspiring others". If a character learns how to persuade and inspire others (especially with the assistance of a magic book) their CHA increases. :smallcool:

[Duke of Urrel]

I have house rules that clearly distinguish physical attractiveness from Charisma (which is a mostly mental ability that enables you to influence people and to express yourself creatively and effectively). Here they are, for your consideration.

Physical Attractiveness

The advantage to being physically attractive to your opponent is that your Bluff and Diplomacy skill checks add a +4 attractiveness bonus with respect to this opponent.

Your Charisma score is one of the three factors that determine how physically attractive you are. The other two factors are your Constitution score and your youth.

To determine your potential for physical attractiveness (henceforth PPA), start with a base score of 10.

• Add your Charisma modifier.

• Add your Constitution modifier, but do not count any racial bonus or penalty to your Constitution score. Only a Constitution score that is above or below average for someone of your own species either adds to or subtracts from your PPA.

• If you are no longer a young adult, add –2 if you are middle-aged, –4 if you are old, or –6 if you are venerable.

By wearing a disguise, you can make yourself look like a young adult, thereby seemingly restoring your own youthful Constitution score and eliminating any age penalty from your PPA (though of course your Disguise check unavoidably adds an age penalty). However, your disguise cannot eliminate a Charisma penalty.

To determine whether somebody finds you physically attractive, you have to flirt with this person, whom I’ll call your “opponent” here, for about a minute or so.

Usually, your opponent must be of your own species, but there are exceptions to this rule. (In most cases, sexual intercourse between creatures of different species produces no offspring, but there are exceptions to this rule, too.)

If you are of the right species and the right sex to be attractive to your opponent (or if you appear to be because you are wearing a disguise), I roll a secret check for your opponent that adds only your opponent’s Wisdom or Charisma modifier, whichever is higher. (High Wisdom bestows willpower to resist infatuation, whereas high Charisma bestows elevated esthetic standards.) If this Wisdom or Charisma check scores less than the number that represents your PPA, your opponent feels physically attracted to you.

Usually, if someone feels physically attracted to you, it becomes obvious after only a minute of flirting. However, a cautious or shy opponent who feels physically attracted to you may try to conceal this feeling. In this case, you must make a Sense Motive check against your opponent’s Bluff check in order to know the truth.

[Ashtagon]

Purpose of this thread is twofold.
Firstly - how would you fluff permanent Cha increases throughout a characters career (by permanent I mean inherent bonuses, increases from levels and classes/prcs)? How would you explain them rp-wise? I have a hard time imagining how a person could "train" a mental stat, especially Charisma.

Secondly - as I mentioned above, Cha is a mental stat. But ignoring that for a moment, I'm interested in what actually observable (but probably purely cosmetic) changes in the characters appearance could you use as an indication of increasing Charisma?

For intelligence and wisdom, this can be explained as academic study in appropriate topics. This is supposedly part of what modern school education does, or at least it was once (cue "how to think" vs. "what to know" education debate). Charisma too, although we often think of that as being harder to justify that way because few thinkers ever made a real study of it. Otoh, How to Wind Friends and Influence People (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People) didn't become a bestseller by accident.

But since scholarship is probably at a lower level in most fantasy settings, there's always self-study (not that kind of self-study). Perhaps your character decided to frequent taverns and observe human interaction and make mental notes.

[Cranthis]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Oh god I hope not. Beholders are ugly and jerks.

[Seharvepernfan]

Oh god I hope not. Beholders are ugly and jerks.

But their eyes are so beautiful!

[TuggyNE]

Oh god I hope not. Beholders are ugly and jerks.

The quote is sometimes continued as follows: "and the rest of the party is in its belly."

[Darius Kane]

@ Duke of Urrel
I'm not looking for houserules.

[Serpentine]

Charisma is the combination of a variety of factors. These include, but are not limited to:

Physical aesthetics
Posture
"The way one holds oneself" (surely there's actually a word for that...)
Body language
Self-confidence
Self-esteem
External expression of confidence
Ego
Social skills
Persuasiveness and manipulation skills
Understanding of others and empathy (overlaps with Wisdom)
General "likeability"

Improving your Charisma score could be reflected in any one or several of these, including but not limited to:

Growing more attractive, understanding how to groom and dress oneself to emphasize one's better points and downplay one's less attractive features.
Working on one's posture.
Improving one's deportment and attitude.
Gaining a better control and understanding of body language - others and one's own.
Growing in understanding of one's capabilities.
Growing in understanding of one's self.
Liking oneself more.
Practicing interacting with others, developing better manners, getting the hang of social mores and how to avoid faux pas.
Practicing lying and manipulating people, learning what gets people to do what you want and what doesn't.
Developing a greater understanding of what makes people tick.
Developing a more friendly attitude, learning to relax around people, learning how to let people in - or at least make them think you are.

Depicting it from an external, roleplay perspective, your character might become more extroverted, friendlier, more communicative and more interactive.

[HunterColt22]

But their eyes are so beautiful!

Minus when you kick one after you killed it, (thank god for high reflex saves and being the party rogue), in either case, fluff wise it is easy to RP increases in charisma as many people have mentioned, articulating your opinions and discussions better in character, offering what sound to be "better" ideas or ways to go about things, or just learning how better approach a topic so as not be made a fool of, all ties into charisma in d&d. Appearance wise the character could hold themselves straight, have a strut in their step, or have that gleam in their eye that says, "Now the world is mine! Yehahahah!"

[Darius Kane]

Physical aesthetics
Not saying this can't be true, but what I think is that by "appearance" the devs didn't mean physical appearance.


"The way one holds oneself" (surely there's actually a word for that...)
Presence?

[Flickerdart]

There's probably a really long German word for it.

[Felyndiira]

Physical appearance plays very little in determining your charisma. Case in point, using polymorth to transform into a strong, ugly beast pirate will affect strength, but your charisma isn't affected in the slightest.

[Talionis]

Think of every 80's movie where the kid is a complete dork and by the end he is transformed into a babe magnet.

Part of growing up is being able to find confidence in yourself. Maybe you make yourself over. Maybe you just feel better wearing the same old shirt, by feeling better about yourself.

I agree as you get to really high levels, its like learning the logic of making people do what you want or at least think what you want.

The La Femme Nikita series (every iteration) shows a girl transform into an assassin. Throughout she trains to greatly improve her Charisma.

[Duke of Urrel]

Okay, no more house rules, I promise! (I'm slowly learning that there are separate threads for these things, and an etiquette guiding their use. Call it a slow increase in a low initial Charisma score!)

I think Ashtagon's Dale Carnegie reference and Serpentine's exhaustive list of Charisma-related skills are both hard to beat as descriptions of what Charisma is.

But I would still add three things to them:

(1) Charisma isn't beauty, but it is your ability to use whatever looks you have as effectively as possible. If physical beauty is a noun (and probably Constitution based), Charisma is a verb.

(2) The added Charisma that comes with advancing age is like an aura of seniority or elderhood. It is not Wisdom, but it is the look of having Wisdom. It is the look of someone who has seen it all before and will not be ruffled or intimidated by any of it. It is also the look of someone who is not going to fall foolishly in lust with someone simply because he or she is handsome.

(3) Very high Charisma is a quasi-magical, extraordinary ability, and in the case of bards, sorcerers, and many creatures with spell-like abilities, it confers magical power. Creatures with high-level Charisma are all either very attractive or very intimidating. So I would say that high-level characters who raise their Charisma scores by way of experience develop a kind of charismatic aura that has an extraordinary, quasi-magical effect. This aura may not actually change a creature's physical appearance, but it makes the creature appear in the best possible light. It's like the aura of celebrity that surrounds certain famous people and makes their fans go nuts when they see them, even though these celebrities may not be particularly beautiful.

[Karoht]

Purpose of this thread is twofold.
Firstly - how would you fluff permanent Cha increases throughout a characters career (by permanent I mean inherent bonuses, increases from levels and classes/prcs)? How would you explain them rp-wise? I have a hard time imagining how a person could "train" a mental stat, especially Charisma.
Secondly - as I mentioned above, Cha is a mental stat. But ignoring that for a moment, I'm interested in what actually observable (but probably purely cosmetic) changes in the characters appearance could you use as an indication of increasing Charisma?
In real life, there are schools devoted to the art of the pickup.
They teach a few icebreakers, better body language, and a host of other techniques designed to essentially make someone more charismatic. There are also the Toastmasters, who train in the art of delivering presentations and speaches. These approaches treats Charisma more like a skill, not necessarily a stat. But the real life example here does demonstrate that Charisma is something that a person can work on and improve.

As for other mental stats, as I'm sure others have pointed out by now, Wisdom is your ability to make sound decisions, like taking a cab instead of driving drunk. Such decision making ability is in fact something one can improve on. Otherwise, all drunk drivers would reoffend, when the average reoffence rate is below 20%.

Intelligence is something that science once told us was unchangeable after a certain age. We are finding out more and more that this simply is not true. But then again, this should be counterbalanced by the notion that IQ testing has been acknowledged as a poor method of testing of intelligence, and is no longer seen as the benchmark it once was. Intelligence is not a genetic trait, and compelling evidence is emerging to demonstrate most forms of intelligence as an epi-genetic trait, which indicates that it is more of a product of environment and raising, and less and less a matter of genetics.

Lastly, stats are an abstraction, not necessarily simulation.

TL;DR-Mental Stats are adjustable in real life.

[Duke of Urrel]

Not saying this can't be true, but what I think is that by "appearance" the devs didn't mean physical appearance.


Presence?

The word "attitude" itself originally meant a physical posture.

"ORIGIN late 17th cent. (denoting the placing or posture of a figure in art): from French, from Italian attitudine ‘fitness, posture,’ from late Latin aptitudo, from aptus ‘fit’."

This is not to argue that Charisma is physical, only to reiterate that Charisma is the mental ability to use one's own body and voice effectively for personal expression and influence.

You can't see Charisma directly, but you can hardly help both seeing and hearing its effects in somebody who has a lot of it.

[Duke of Urrel]

Ditto to everything Karoht said, but it made me want to add one more thing.

Changes in ability scores seem realistic to me only at lower and medium levels. A change in Charisma, or Strength for that matter, from 3 to 8 or from 9 to 14 may be realistic. A change from 15 to 20 strikes me as extraordinary to the point of quasi-magical. But that's okay.

If a fantasy role-playing game drifts too far from reality, it stops making sense and becomes less interesting, for me at least. But if it becomes too realistic, it becomes less fun.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Serpentine gave a really good list that I have one more thing to add to, complexion, copying the effects of good make-up. Natural look make-up covers blemishes giving the skin a more uniform tone and usually redder cheeks.

If charisma increases are at least partially supernatural then all kinds of minor changes could occur, like bigger eyes, fuller lips, facial features could shift a centimeter or so, oh big one, their face could become more symetrical.

[Flickerdart]

Really? A change from "barely aware of self, far less so than a dog or cat and barely above a rat" to "socially awkward human being" is less extraordinary than from "really smooth" to "even more smooth"?

[Darius Kane]

If a fantasy role-playing game drifts too far from reality, it stops making sense and becomes less interesting, for me at least.
Wut.
Fantasy shouldn't be realistic or make sense. >.>


(1) Charisma isn't beauty
It is.

BTW, this thread is only about Charisma.

[Flickerdart]

It is.

Aboleth. 17 Charisma. Described as revolting in its own monster entry. Charisma has nothing to do with beauty.

[Darius Kane]

Aboleth. 17 Charisma. Described as revolting in its own monster entry. Charisma has nothing to do with beauty.
You didn't say "appearance" nor "physical beauty".

[HunterColt22]

You didn't say "appearance" nor "physical beauty".

One, grasping at straws really. Two I imagine it goes into plenty of details in the MM given they are to at least give a paragraph on physical description, and if you need that much clarification, google-fu grasshopper! Personally speaking someone can also be physically unattractive but still have a high charisma. I give you Frankenstein or Dracula for that matter. Both look, very, very unpalatable by normal human standards, but when we don't see them, their charisma shines through in such gobs that it's like being stuck inside a gelatinous cube.

[Flickerdart]

You didn't say "appearance" nor "physical beauty".
Neither does the monster entry.

[Boci]

Charisma has nothing to do with beauty.

No, just "physical attractiveness", and even that was probably a bad idea on WotC's behalf.

[willpell]

Firstly - how would you fluff permanent Cha increases throughout a characters career (by permanent I mean inherent bonuses, increases from levels and classes/prcs)? How would you explain them rp-wise? I have a hard time imagining how a person could "train" a mental stat, especially Charisma.

Gaining more confidence, learning to project your voice, feeling more at home in your skin, having some sort of sexual breakthrough (first time, best ever, fulfilling relationship, mixing it up, whatever), reading self-help books (I don't really want to mention "The Game" or "Art of Seduction", but less sleazy examples are not coming to mind, except maybe stuff by Dr. Phil and the like)...I'm less sure how to fit anything like this into a medieval paradigm, since the perceptions we tend to think of in terms of the middle ages were very heavily weighted toward determinism - the King was chosen by God to rule, nobody who isn't chosen by God is ever going to be able to rival the King for leadership skills, you're either blessed at birth with a magnetic personality or you'll forever be one of the peasant rabble, etc.


Secondly - as I mentioned above, Cha is a mental stat. But ignoring that for a moment, I'm interested in what actually observable (but probably purely cosmetic) changes in the characters appearance could you use as an indication of increasing Charisma?

Equating Charisma with appearance is questionable at best. The two may parallel each other sometimes, but it's quite possible to believe that a character might be fugly-looking yet somehow compelling (this can range from Brian Blessed to Gilbert Gottfried to Ron Jeremy), while conversely someone might be really pretty but a complete wallflower. IMO it's annoying that the same Attribute governs your untrained checks for Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate, given how often at least one of these will be radically inappropriate for a character's personality; the reason I finally decided to allow Flaws in my campaign was so I could build a character with a +4 Charisma bonus but a -4 penalty to every Charisma skill that I didn't want him to be talented in. If you don't want to be seen cheesing for extra Feats, try to talk the GM into allowing a Trait to better reflect your character's personality; +1 to the skill you want and -2 to the skill you don't is typical of the way they work in Unearthed Arcana.

[Darius Kane]

One, grasping at straws really. Two I imagine it goes into plenty of details in the MM given they are to at least give a paragraph on physical description, and if you need that much clarification, google-fu grasshopper!
:smallconfused:


Personally speaking someone can also be physically unattractive but still have a high charisma.
Em... okay? Where did I say you can't?



Neither does the monster entry.
I'm not sure I follow you.
I didn't say every creature with high Charisma is or must be beautiful physically.


Equating Charisma with appearance is questionable at best.
Um... yeah, that's why I said "lets ignore that for a moment".:smallconfused:


the reason I finally decided to allow Flaws in my campaign was so I could build a character with a +4 Charisma bonus but a -4 penalty to every Charisma skill that I didn't want him to be talented in. If you don't want to be seen cheesing for extra Feats, try to talk the GM into allowing a Trait to better reflect your character's personality; +1 to the skill you want and -2 to the skill you don't is typical of the way they work in Unearthed Arcana.
If I don't want to use a skill, because the character isn't supposed to be talented in it, I simply don't invest any resources in it and don't use it. Alternatively I don't roll and tell the GM that I choose to fail. I use Flaws or Traits like you suggest only when I optimize.

[HunterColt22]

Stating that if you really had questions on his monster choice you could go to google and just type in whatever mm it is and you will probably find a pdf veiw-able of it, probably in 2.5 seconds. :/ Also you argument makes it sound as if you are disregarding our answers to RPing it an aspect that is seen, but not strictly cosmetic or esthetically pleasing to another eye, such as talking with greater authority on a matter, endorsing your plans, walking straighter etc.

[Duke of Urrel]

There's probably a really long German word for it.

I would prefer French words and phrases, including, but not limited to:

savoir faire,

je ne sais quoi,

oh la la, and

sacré bleu!

Darius Kane, since you originally asked, "I'm interested in what actually observable (but probably purely cosmetic) changes in the characters appearance could you use as an indication of increasing Charisma?" I believe it is pardonable for some of us to assume that you may have been wondering about beauty. The word "cosmetic" certainly implies "beauty" very strongly.

As for aboleths, all we need to do is remind ourselves of two things: Firstly, Charisma can be intimidating as well as attractive, and secondly, as I have argued above, creatures with high Charisma often have an extraordinary, quasi-magical power. This is certainly true of the aboleth, whose Enslave ability is in fact magical (and Charisma based).

[Darius Kane]

Stating that if you really had questions on his monster choice you could go to google and just type in whatever mm it is and you will probably find a pdf veiw-able of it, probably in 2.5 seconds. :/
But I didn't state that I have any questions, though. :smallconfused:


Also you argument makes it sound as if you are disregarding our answers to RPing it an aspect that is seen, but not strictly cosmetic or esthetically pleasing to another eye, such as talking with greater authority on a matter, endorsing your plans, walking straighter etc.
I'm not disregarding anything. I asked for it. Why would I disregard it?


Darius Kane, since you originally asked, "I'm interested in what actually observable (but probably purely cosmetic) changes in the characters appearance could you use as an indication of increasing Charisma?" I believe it is pardonable for some of us to assume that you may have been wondering about beauty. The word "cosmetic" certainly implies "beauty" very strongly.
Yes, I asked that. I also said "Ignoring the fact that Cha is mental". Let me bold it for ya:

Secondly - as I mentioned above, Cha is a mental stat. But ignoring that for a moment, I'm interested in what actually observable (but probably purely cosmetic) changes in the characters appearance could you use as an indication of increasing Charisma?
Reading with comprehension, people. :smallannoyed:

[HunterColt22]

You didn't say "appearance" nor "physical beauty"

Reading with comprehension, people. :smallannoyed:

You realize that we are reading with comprehension correct? :smallannoyed: We have given you plenty of ways to demonstrate that your mental charisma has been taken up a notch, it just manifests itself in ocular ways as demonstrated by a physical presence. Honestly there is no other way to RP your charisma suddenly getting jacked through the roof. It's the same with wisdom and or intelligence. We only notice these functions have grown in a person after viewing or hearing about their actions or presence some where or with someone. There is no other way to really show case this unless you go the very lewd and dull approach of "I have an 18 in charisma now... I need a bigger bra size/cup guard."


Your previous interaction with his monster choice also suggested you were being very short with his post. :/

[Serpentine]

Not saying this can't be true, but what I think is that by "appearance" the devs didn't mean physical appearance.I disagree. In fact, there's lots of studies that have shown that physically attractive people gain all sorts of advantages of the sort that are directly correllated with, say, the Cha-based skills. It just doesn't only mean physical appearance. You can have someone who is extremely unattractive but with a high Charisma, because their Charisma comes from the other aspects. Then you can have someone who is extremely attractive with low self-esteem who also has high Charisma, if they're just that gorgeous (and likely having some of the other Charisma-associated features).

[Darius Kane]

We have given you plenty of ways to demonstrate that your mental charisma has been taken up a notch, it just manifests itself in ocular ways as demonstrated by a physical presence.
So you've said your opinion. Okay, thanks. It will be helpful. If you don't have anything else to add then what further business do you have in this thread? To tell me that there's nothing else to add? Don't be so sure, people here are smart, more interesting examples can still be posted and you guys are just a fraction of users on this boards.
Or are you here just to argue with me?


Honestly there is no other way to RP your charisma suddenly getting jacked through the roof.
I disagree. Plenty of examples can still be listed. Most of what was posted thus far was just generalities.


We only notice these functions have grown in a person after viewing or hearing about their actions or presence some where or with someone.
Except that isn't what this thread is about. I'm asking how you are fluffing the act of increasing or training your Cha, not the outcome of it.

[Talionis]

Except that isn't what this thread is about. I'm asking how you are fluffing the act of increasing or training your Cha, not the outcome of it.

Well I can conceive of Bard colleges being very much like La Femme Nikkita's charm school. They teach you things that make you more attractive and more impressive.

Adjusting Posture -- Proverbial Walking with a book on your head
Projecting your Voice -- Voice lessons learning to speak from the Diaphragm.
Smiling when you enter a room
Looking people in the Eye
Debate Classes -- Help you to refine arguments and see holes in others. You might also get this from just learning especially if the teacher is using the Socratic Method.
Knowing what subjects cause problems and don't cause problems.

Dale Carnegie references are also right on.

Most of Charisma is "Force of Personality" so its your own confidence in your own ability. When thinking of it that way, anything that grants you additional confidence may increase your Charisma.

[Darius Kane]

Most of Charisma is "Force of Personality" so its your own confidence in your own ability. When thinking of it that way, anything that grants you additional confidence may increase your Charisma.
Like wearing nice clothes, a good hair style and some makeup?

[Talionis]

Like wearing nice clothes, a good hair style and some makeup?

For some people, yes better clothes would increase Charisma. For others, isn't there some adage about you can dress them up but you can't...

[Darius Kane]

I was talking about increasing confidence. >.>

There's this movie that I didn't watch, but read and heard about, that's about a popular girl that helps a nerdy girl to become popular (at least that's what I remember), and one of the first things she did was improve her image, IIRC.
And there's another movie, which again I didn't actually watch, about a popular guy that made a bet with his friends that he'll make an unpopular girl become the Queen of Prom Night. And he did the same thing, I think.
And everytime I read or hear about a similar situation it's always clothes that and appearance that come first. So there must be something in the theory that being/looking beautiful boosts confidence. Why else would attractiveness be so often tied to Charisma? You don't see people that are considered charismatic in real life to walk around looking like hobos, right?

[Talionis]

You don't see people that are considered charismatic in real life to walk around looking like hobos, right?

For every rule there is an exception.

Albert Einstein was said to have a lot of Charisma and he didn't dress particularly well or even do his hair.

Lady Ga Ga isn't particularly attractive and dresses in very strange ways, yet she's Charismatic... Go Figure.

An old president of my University would dress in jeans and drive his beat up old red pickup truck with his hair disheveled. But he was well loved.

Don King and Donald Trump are known for their ridiculous hair do's, but they both have Charisma.

Dressing better can make you feel better. But some people can feel good in a bad toupee.

[Seharvepernfan]

Poise.

It's how you hold yourself.

[PersonMan]

There's probably a really long German word for it.

Just popping in to say, yep, although it's a fairly short one. Körperhaltung. It literally means "body holding".

[willpell]

If I don't want to use a skill, because the character isn't supposed to be talented in it, I simply don't invest any resources in it and don't use it.

The DM, not you, chooses whether you get to use some skills - most of those are WIS or DEX-based, but sometimes he might call for a reflexive CHA-based roll, such as Disguise to act like you belong in a crowd without standing out as a tourist or an easy mark. And your untrained skill check is governed by your modifier. If you have +4 to your check, you can't fail a DC 5 roll, not even if it would be dramatically appropriate for you to do so.


As for aboleths, all we need to do is remind ourselves of two things: Firstly, Charisma can be intimidating as well as attractive, and secondly, as I have argued above, creatures with high Charisma often have an extraordinary, quasi-magical power. This is certainly true of the aboleth, whose Enslave ability is in fact magical (and Charisma based).

The Enslave ability is only a Monster Manual stand-in for the Psionic Dominate power which the "real" Aboleth in the Expanded Psionic Handbook has.


@ Duke of Urrel
I'm not looking for houserules.

Fair enough, but I thought it was a rather decent houserule.

[Darius Kane]

If you have +4 to your check, you can't fail a DC 5 roll, not even if it would be dramatically appropriate for you to do so.
I'll just say I fail on purpose. OR, if it's seriously not allowed, I won't even attempt the check and say I did in-game.

[willpell]

If the GM says "Make a DC 5 Spot check to notice the gigantic diamond which is casting blindingly brilliant rays of light around the room; if you succeed you are Fascinated by its gleam", you do not have the option of simply ignoring this dazzling display. Try to sleep in a room with all the lights on sometime; just because you don't want to pay attention to the light doesn't mean you have a choice. Likewise, the entire advertising industry is calculated around the assumption that you can force someone to pay attention to your message by showing something they're incapable of not looking at. In order to be oblivious to something that eye-catching, you need to legitimately have less perceptive capability, represented by a Wisdom penalty.

Whether this can ever apply to Charisma skills is a bit questionable, but I like the idea of a girl being so hot that she makes a Perform (dance) check just walking down the street, and all eyes are on her whether she wants it or not.

[Darius Kane]

You're making up a contrived scenario to prove your point. I think we both know that that's not what I'm talking about. >.> But let me explain in case that you don't actually know. I'm talking about checks that I have to initiate.

[Sutremaine]

I like the idea of a girl being so hot that she makes a Perform (dance) check just walking down the street, and all eyes are on her whether she wants it or not.
...That's kinda creepy.

[TypoNinja]

The Enslave ability is only a Monster Manual stand-in for the Psionic Dominate power which the "real" Aboleth in the Expanded Psionic Handbook has.


Well there'd be a species penalty no? A human sees a 18Cha Human and goes "OMG!" but a 18Cha Gnoll isn't going to look particularly attractive. Though another Gnoll will probably tell you hes a paragon of sexiness.

Cha just needs to be relative to the species possessing it to remain internally consistent.

[Yora]

There's probably a really long German word for it.
I think we actually use a french word for that. Contenance, which would roughly be composure in english. And I don't know if we use the word like the French do.

Just popping in to say, yep, although it's a fairly short one. Körperhaltung. It literally means "body holding".
Yes, but that just means posture. Makes me think more of orthopedy than appearance.

[Serpentine]

I suppose I could just say "attitude" twice, using both versions of the word...

[willpell]

You're making up a contrived scenario to prove your point. I think we both know that that's not what I'm talking about. >.> But let me explain in case that you don't actually know. I'm talking about checks that I have to initiate.

You can choose not to initiate such checks, but AFAIK you cannot choose to fail them on purpose if you do initiate them. And thus, if the GM calls for you to make a check, you cannot intentionally fail it. (Though, conceivably, you could behave in such a way as to try to 'earn" circumstance penalties, which would be a good way for the game to start sliding downhill, so perhaps it'd be a wiser call for your GM to just let you fail a check if you're that determined to. By RAW, however, it doesn't seem to be legal.)


Well there'd be a species penalty no? A human sees a 18Cha Human and goes "OMG!" but a 18Cha Gnoll isn't going to look particularly attractive. Though another Gnoll will probably tell you hes a paragon of sexiness.

I really think you are giving humanity far too much credit for discriminating taste. See also: the entire Half-Orc race.


I think we actually use a french word for that. Contenance, which would roughly be composure in english. And I don't know if we use the word like the French do.

Fun fact: in the New World of Darkness system, which is designed to place a much higher emphasis on social roleplay than D&D ever has or will, there is a stat called Composure. It governs your resistance to emotional manipulation, your ability to avoid getting frightened or flustered or frustrated, and is paired with the stats Presence and Manipulation, which are the social equivalents of Strength and Dexterity, as Composure is the social equivalent of Stamina. (Their mental correspondents are Intelligence, Wits, and Resolve.)

[Darius Kane]

By RAW, however, it doesn't seem to be legal.
I don't care about RAW. I'm failing checks on purpose for the sake of my concept. The DM should rejoice, not throw obstacles in my path.

[Flickerdart]

If the GM says "Make a DC 5 Spot check to notice the gigantic diamond which is casting blindingly brilliant rays of light around the room; if you succeed you are Fascinated by its gleam",
Inappropriate use of skills. The diamond isn't hiding. The proper mechanic to use here would be a Will save to resist the fascination.

[Snowbluff]

Flickerdart, is beauty isn't a component of Charisma, then how do we account for the sociological preconceptions people have about beautiful people in our skill checks?

[Flickerdart]

Flickerdart, is beauty isn't a component of Charisma, then how do we account for the sociological preconceptions people have about beautiful people in our skill checks?
I'm not sure what you mean.

[Snowbluff]

I'm not sure what you mean.

Well, people are generally more receptive to people who they find attractice or cool looking. I want to know what you think accounts for that in DnD if charisma doesn't have a component of appearance.

[Flickerdart]

Well, people are generally more receptive to people who they find attractice or cool looking. I want to know what you think accounts for that in DnD if charisma doesn't have a component of appearance.
I'm not sure that trend would exist in a society where you can have a drink with a dragon, your bartender is a tentacled brain-eater, and the other patrons are all zombies. Maybe you think the dragon is super cool looking, but the illithid thinks he's far too scaly and not slimy enough. What does that mean for the dragon's Charisma?

[Snowbluff]

I'm not sure that trend would exist in a society where you can have a drink with a dragon, your bartender is a tentacled brain-eater, and the other patrons are all zombies. Maybe you think the dragon is super cool looking, but the illithid thinks he's far too scaly and not slimy enough. What does that mean for the dragon's Charisma?

The dragon has an AWESOME charisma, but the Illithid considers him one step down on the Diplomacy chart (Neutral, rather than frienldy), sine he automatically hates dragons.

People should probably has bonus types they choose for each stat. Like for Cha you have "Bad Mineralfrakker" (+1/4 level to intimidate, max is your cha mod), "Handsome/Beautiful" (Same, but for Diplomacy), or "You can trust me"(Same, but for bluff. Also, you sound like Morgan Freeman).

[Flickerdart]

The dragon has an AWESOME charisma, but the Illithid considers him one step down on the Diplomacy chart (Neutral, rather than frienldy), sine he automatically hates dragons.
a) [citation needed]
b) What does that have to do with Charisma?

[Snowbluff]

a) [citation needed]
b) What does that have to do with Charisma?

Well if he thinks dragons are ugly, he'll treat them worse than most people. Attitude status Unfriendly, or Indifferent.

The description for Charisma says it has a portion of perception (the sort of thing I was discussing earlier), but it has a lot more to do with force of personality as well.


This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

To ignore the sociological perspective associated with appearance sounds like a poor approach to this subject.

[Flickerdart]

There are sociological perceptions for beauty among a single species. In a multi-species environment, it doesn't matter. You have to stop trying to map our society on D&D, because it doesn't work that way. There are absolutely no rules that link Charisma and appearance and race to initial attitude. You could houserule them in, but it would have no bearing on this discussion.

If what you propose were true or even desirable, there would have to be a table with every creature in the game mapping their attitude to one another. It would be enormous, and also enormously pointless, because it would be so big that nobody would be able to use it.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, actually. They all are, thanks to sociology. And when you are facing preconceptions, you have to make up for it in force of personality! Take it with a grain of salt, since it WAS written from a human perspective.
You can usually just eyeball the initial attitudes based on your campaign.


For example, a human meeting a drow. Drow hates humans (Hostile), but the human can be charismatic enough, he can befriend the drow.

Or like not liking homosexuals, but you think George Take is cool.

[Medic!]

If anything at all I'd say a racial prejudice would impose a circumstance penalty (or bonus, depending on the situation) on cha-based checks...but someone's pre-disposition doesn't have any bearing on a creature's charisma.

To quote an enlightening source: "You ever watch that show "Becker?" [...a bit more dialogue that isn't really all that pertinant outside of racial slurs...]I'm not sayin' I wouldn't lynch the guy, but his sense of timing is priceless!"

Charisma's one of my favorite ability scores because there are so many options for RPing your score. I've got a little tiefling rogue here in the playground with 6 cha who's fluffed as "exquisitely beautiful" and 3 pages into the IC thread half the party was already referring to her as...well "Spoiled little brat" is the most flattering term. :smallamused:

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, actually. They all are, thanks to sociology. And when you are facing preconceptions, you have to make up for it in force of personality! Take it with a grain of salt, since it WAS written from a human perspective.
You can usually just eyeball the initial attitudes based on your campaign.


For example, a human meeting a drow. Drow hates humans (Hostile), but the human can be charismatic enough, he can befriend the drow.

Or like not liking homosexuals, but you think George Take is cool.
Sociology is not a game mechanic. All of this stuff you're spouting has nothing to do with the rules of D&D 3.5.

[Snowbluff]

Sociology is not a game mechanic. All of this stuff you're spouting has nothing to do with the rules of D&D 3.5.

By RAW, this is all true. It says appearance has a component in Charisma, as does perception (hence the sociological perspective). Some races are even called zenophobic as well, or are racist against other races.

Sociology is not the mechanic, it's the explanation for the how the mechanics work.

[Flickerdart]

By RAW, this is all true
Please show me the rule that governs exactly how Charisma is affected by inter-racial relations, please. I'll wait.

[Snowbluff]

Please show me the rule that governs exactly how Charisma is affected by inter-racial relations, please. I'll wait.

Charisma affect diplomacy, and diplomacy can make a creature that would attack on sight (Hostile), NOT attack on sight (Pretty much any higher NPC Attitude).

People with bad Cha will get eaten by Drow.

[Flickerdart]

Charisma affect diplomacy, and diplomacy can make a creature that would attack on sight (Hostile), NOT attack on sight (Pretty much any higher NPC Attitude).

People with bad Cha will get eaten by Drow.
No, it can't. You have to roll a Diplomacy check before it does anything. Initial attitude is not affected by Diplomacy.

It's like you've never played this game before.

[TypoNinja]

Please show me the rule that governs exactly how Charisma is affected by inter-racial relations, please. I'll wait.


Diplomacy (Cha)
Check

You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check; see the Influencing NPC Attitudes sidebar, below, for basic DCs. In negotiations, participants roll opposed Diplomacy checks, and the winner gains the advantage. Opposed checks also resolve situations when two advocates or diplomats plead opposite cases in a hearing before a third party.

See also: epic usages of Diplomacy.
Action

Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check can be made as a full-round action, but you take a -10 penalty on the check.
Try Again

Optional, but not recommended because retries usually do not work. Even if the initial Diplomacy check succeeds, the other character can be persuaded only so far, and a retry may do more harm than good. If the initial check fails, the other character has probably become more firmly committed to his position, and a retry is futile.
Special

A half-elf has a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy checks.

If you have the Negotiator feat, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.
Synergy

If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), or Sense Motive, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.

International/racial negotiations would be two ambassadors making some combination of diplomacy, bluff, and sense motive skill checks. All Cha based. Base racial relations affect how effective your Cha score is going to be. Gnomes and Kobolds hate eachoter, so even a high Cha probably won't make for smooth negotiations. Humans and Halflings get along great. High Cha helps the check greatly.

[Flickerdart]

International/racial negotiations would be two ambassadors making some combination of diplomacy, bluff, and sense motive skill checks. All Cha based.
If appearance were in any way relevant to this process, there would be rules that determined their relations based on their Charisma scores modified by their race before negotiations took place. This is patently not the case.

[Snowbluff]

Yes, but it IS affected by sociology! Drow were raised to hate Elves, hence there hostile attitude.

But yeah, "attacking on sight" was probably a bad example.

[TypoNinja]

If appearance were in any way relevant to this process, there would be rules that determined their relations based on their Charisma scores modified by their race before negotiations took place. This is patently not the case.

It is, its just never RAW.

Race relations is entirely fluff based on a campaign setting, and up to the DM to assign(or copy if a pre-existing setting is detailed enough), some monster entries explicitly call out a creature as being hideous, but its all in the fluff sections.

Ugly species (half orc) have racial Cha penalties, the use is consistent and easy to pick out if you just apply some common sense.

[Flickerdart]

Yes, but it IS affected by sociology! Drow were raised to hate Elves, hence there hostile attitude. Which has nothing at all to do with either beauty or Charisma.

It is, its just never RAW.

Race relations is entirely fluff based on a campaign setting, and up to the DM to assign(or copy if a pre-existing setting is detailed enough), some monster entries explicitly call out a creature as being hideous, but its all in the fluff sections.

Which is my point, yes.

[Snowbluff]

Which has nothing at all to do with either beauty or Charisma.

Concepts of beauty stem from socialization. You are raised into thinking what you find beautiful.

[TypoNinja]

Yea but RAW stops working eventually in a table top game, players will always be able to think of something the rules never thought of. Technically RAW says you have to breathe but never says what you have to breathe, there is no RAW for crossing the street, using the bathroom, or even staying awake all night.

That's what a DM is for. He says "Yes, breathing means O2, make a spot check if your looking before you step out, makes the requisite 'more fiber' joke, and says yes you need to sleep."

Cha is the same way, aside from campaign specific racial relations, he judges that your Human is perfectly capable of finding another elf physically attractive, but unless you've got an odd fetish, Kobolds do nothing for you.

Somebody on these boards has a sig, something like "100% RAW and 110% silly", its a perfect illustration of what the DM does, tells the story, fills in the holes and goes "Yea.... NO" when the 110% silly part comes up.

Edit:


Concepts of beauty stem from socialization. You are raised into thinking what you find beautiful.

Not entirely, some traits are universally attractive, like symmetry of features, the opposite is true as well, some traits are universally unattractive.

[Flickerdart]

Concepts of beauty stem from socialization. You are raised into thinking what you find beautiful.
Right, but only the conceptions of beauty that the beholder has would be relevant for Charisma if appearance matters. Every beholder will have different ones, and yet Charisma is calculated the same regardless of whether or not you're facing a troll or an elf. Therefore, these conceptions DO NOT play into Charisma, and so beauty has nothing to do with it. Do you follow now?

[Snowbluff]

Right, but only the conceptions of beauty that the beholder has would be relevant for Charisma if appearance matters. Every beholder will have different ones, and yet Charisma is calculated the same regardless of whether or not you're facing a troll or an elf. Therefore, these conceptions DO NOT play into Charisma, and so beauty has nothing to do with it. Do you follow now?

Yes, which is why I pointed out that the books were written from a human perspective. Charisma is static, but it's components are not, and different races treat other races differently based on looks, since it how most people tell what race you are.

[Flickerdart]

Charisma is static, but it's components are not
That makes no sense. There would have to be some sort of compensator to ensure that my Charisma against elves that love me and think I'm hot is the same as my Charisma against goblins that hate me and think I look like a butt. Assuming I have 10 CHA, 10-Y cannot be equal to 10+Y unless Y is 0.

[Snowbluff]

That makes no sense. There would have to be some sort of compensator to ensure that my Charisma against elves that love me is the same as my Charisma against goblins that hate me. Assuming I have 10 CHA, 10-Y cannot be equal to 10+Y unless Y is 0.

Which is why when Y changes, X changes as well. Z=X+Y You literally suddenly grow more personality to make up for and overcome racial prejudice.

[Flickerdart]

Which is why when Y changes, X changes as well. Z=X+Y You literally suddenly grow more personality to make up for and overcome racial prejudice.
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. At least try and explain how other races thinking you're ugly can be overcome by panache, but members of your race thinking you're ugly can't be. Because if both can be overcome, then beauty doesn't really play into Charisma at all.

[Snowbluff]

My argument that the appearance component of Charisma is static, since the books are written by human,s it uses human standards. Your appearance as far as RACE affects how other races treat you, but your beauty is held to the universal in-game standard to that of a human.

Also, it simple algebra, of course it makes sense. :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

You either apply your appearance to your Charisma when dealing with all races, or with no races. You don't get to replace yourself with a cardboard cutout that says "Human" or "Elf" as soon as another race walks by.

For instance, I can tell the difference between dogs, or cats, or lizards. Some dogs are a lot better looking than other dogs. Under your system, I see only "dog" regardless of what kind of dog it is, which is obviously not how things work.

[Talya]

By RAW, charisma is an abstraction that can include physical appearance in its list of qualities, but primarily represents some nebulous "force of personality." Comparing mental abilities to physical abilities, Charisma is the mental equivalency to Strength. It represents the ability of the character to influence and force change upon his or her environment and the people in it with their mind alone. (Similarly, Wisdom represents mental Constitution, and Intelligence represents mental Dexterity.)

The key word above is abstraction. Much like hit points, it doesn't make sense if you put too much thought into it.

[Snowbluff]

You either apply your appearance to your Charisma when dealing with all races, or with no races. You don't get to replace yourself with a cardboard cutout that says "Human" or "Elf" as soon as another race walks by.

For instance, I can tell the difference between dogs, or cats, or lizards. Some dogs are a lot better looking than other dogs. Under your system, I see only "dog" regardless of what kind of dog it is, which is obviously not how things work.

You are misconstruing what I am saying then. I am say you always apply your appearance to cha, but creatures in DnD are inherently racist, which translate into the NPC attitudes chart.

For example, why do half-drow exist. Drow hate humans, but one was pretty/charismatic enough for a drow.

[Flickerdart]

You are misconstruing what I am saying then. I am say you always apply your appearance to cha, but creatures in DnD are inherently racist, which translate into the NPC attitudes chart.

For example, why do half-drow exist. Drow hate humans, but one was pretty/charismatic enough for a drow.
That still doesn't follow. Let's continue with the dog example.

An average bulldog will have a Charisma of 6. So will an average poodle. To their own species, they might have a whole lot of different features that make bulldogs beautiful to other bulldogs. Personally, I think that bulldogs look like rubbish and poodles are really nice looking dogs. But to both me and another bulldog, that bulldog's Charisma is still 6. So is the poodle's. How is the bulldog compensating for the fact that I think he looks ridiculous, to have the same Charisma?

[Snowbluff]

That still doesn't follow. Let's continue with the dog example.

An average bulldog will have a Charisma of 6. So will an average poodle. To their own species, they might have a whole lot of different features that make bulldogs beautiful to other bulldogs. Personally, I think that bulldogs look like rubbish and poodles are really nice looking dogs. But to both me and another bulldog, that bulldog's Charisma is still 6. So is the poodle's. How is the bulldog compensating for the fact that I think he looks ridiculous, to have the same Charisma?

Have you ever met a bulldog? They are FIERCE. Ugly, but they got the personality. You, for example, are probably not Friendly with bull dogs. You probably meet them with indifference in-game.

And, as I've said, the appearance part is static, since the same standards are up help universally in DnD.

[Flickerdart]

Have you ever met a bulldog? They are FIERCE. Ugly, but they got the personality. You, for example, are probably not Friendly with bull dogs. You probably meet them with indifference in-game.

And, as I've said, the appearance part is static, since the same standards are up help universally in DnD.
But attitude doesn't affect Charisma score or Diplomacy check totals. if either dog tried to influence me, they'd have the same modifier to their attempt.

And if the claim about appearance being judged on human standards (what human standards? every human has their own standard of beauty) were true, Humans would have massive Charisma bonuses, which they do not.

So either Charisma doesn't actually account for appearance, or all characters in the game share the same idea of beauty regardless of species, and all humans are so socially stunted that their being the paragons of attractiveness is completely cancelled out. The latter is...a bit of a stretch.

[TuggyNE]

Somebody on these boards has a sig, something like "100% RAW and 110% silly", its a perfect illustration of what the DM does, tells the story, fills in the holes and goes "Yea.... NO" when the 110% silly part comes up.

That would be me. :smalltongue:


As far as physical appearance affecting Charisma, I'd say it has a variable but generally low effect. There simply isn't the complexity in the rules to support race-to-race appearance mapping, and there are few or no universals. Therefore, Charisma is mostly the effect of personality, poise, ability to phrase things quickly and smoothly, and so on — a mental stat, not primarily a physical one.

[Snowbluff]

That would be me. :smalltongue:


As far as physical appearance affecting Charisma, I'd say it has a variable but generally low effect. There simply isn't the complexity in the rules to support race-to-race appearance mapping, and there are few or no universals. Therefore, Charisma is mostly the effect of personality, poise, ability to phrase things quickly and smoothly, and so on — a mental stat, not primarily a physical one.

Well, not PRIMARILY a physical. By the same logic, one form of poise/phrasing/smoothness would sound great to one person while offending another.

I use the universal standard because it can't always be subjective (they're NPCs, and Cha skills generally don't work on other players.) they are relative.


So either Charisma doesn't actually account for appearance, or all characters in the game share the same idea of beauty regardless of species, and all humans are so socially stunted that their being the paragons of attractiveness is completely cancelled out. The latter is...a bit of a stretch.

It's not a stretch at all. Look at Elves. They seem to use human standards for beauty. Probably because it's (you guessed it) a book written by humans.

[Serpentine]

Physical appearance is ONE factor of Charisma. One of many others, and not by any means the most important. This is RAW, and it is reflected in real-world studies that people tend to fine attractive people nicer, friendlier, more trustworthy, etc.
Note that "physical appearance" does not necessarily, however, mean "beautiful". It could, conceivably, also apply to 'impressive", "intimidating", "grand", "striking", "well-formed", "memorable", and so on.
Finally, no one ever said concepts of physical appearance had to remain constant across species for Charisma to apply. There's no reason at all it can't just be mostly within a species. I.e. a kobold with an appearance-based high Charisma may have the shiniest scales and the sharpest spines and the most well-formed of muzzles and the most elegant of tails. Other kobolds will sigh over their beauty; even non-kobolds may well go "wow, that's an impressive-looking kobold". They don't have to be attracted to it to admire its innate koboldiness, and it's in comparison, in that specific aspect of its Charisma which is almost certainly influenced by other factors which may themselves have been influenced by the kobold's upbringing as a Very Attractive Kobold, with other kobolds that its Cha has its value.
...man I wrote that convolutedly. Hopefully you get what I mean.

[TypoNinja]

It's not a stretch at all. Look at Elves. They seem to use human standards for beauty. Probably because it's (you guessed it) a book written by humans.

And the Fey, and all the outsiders, they are all the Human ideal of sexy. A Nymph looks good to a human, but we never see a Nymph for Kobolds, or Orcs.

Reality has a Human bias? :P

[Snowbluff]

And the Fey, and all the outsiders, they are all the Human ideal of sexy. A Nymph looks good to a human, but we never see a Nymph for Kobolds, or Orcs.

Reality has a Human bias? :P

Exactly! Except not all Evil Outsiders are handsome. A lot of their Cha comes from being cool or their talent for speaking. XD

[Darius Kane]

Beauty is just fluff. You can make a character that has 20 Cha but describe him as ugly. His appearance won't have any impact on the rules, unless you houserule or fiat it so.

Now can you please end the offtopic? This thread isn't about "Is Charisma beauty?" It's about how Charisma can be trained fluffwise, and (ignoring that it's a mental stat for the sake of the second question) what physical changes could increased Charisma have.

[TypoNinja]

Exactly! Except not all Evil Outsiders are handsome. A lot of their Cha comes from being cool or their talent for speaking. XD

Well I was thinking the succubi, but they at least have the excuse of illusion/shapeshifting :P


Beauty is just fluff. You can make a character that has 20 Cha but describe him as ugly. His appearance won't have any impact on the rules, unless you houserule or fiat it so.

Now can you please end the offtopic? This thread isn't about "Is Charisma beauty?" It's about how Charisma can be trained fluffwise, and (ignoring that it's a mental stat for the sake of the second question) what physical changes could increased Charisma have.

So you want us to stop talking about how Charisma is beauty and start talking about what physical changes increasing Charisma has?

[Darius Kane]

So you want us to stop talking about how Charisma is beauty and start talking about what physical changes increasing Charisma has?
That's only one of two points of this thread. But yes.

[Serpentine]

Beauty is just fluff. You can make a character that has 20 Cha but describe him as ugly. His appearance won't have any impact on the rules, unless you houserule or fiat it so.You CAN make an ugly character with 20 Charisma. But that doesn't mean that appearance is never a part of Charisma. It just means that it's one of many factors that could be going towards a character's Charisma. Or do you think that your character's Charisma wouldn't be even higher if he was exactly the same except also really really really really really really good looking?
As an example: I had a character who was 3/4 elf and 1/4 succubus. She was drop-dead gorgeous. Slender, shapely, skin like fine china, a dramatic mane of bright red hair, the lot. An 18 appearance-wise, easily. However, she also had PTSD, trust issues, stunted social development, anger management issues, and a violent temper - enough to potentially justify a very low Charisma, but she kept it under control enough that it wouldn't necessarily be completely abysmal. In the sum of it, her appearance was so striking that it didn't fail to make an impression, and so gorgeous that she had a head start in social interactions and would have influenced the way she'd been treated by others, how she expects to be treated, and how she responds; but underneath that was a pretty unstable sense of self and the potential to deeply alienate people. I split the difference, and she ended up with about a 13-14 Charisma.
Basically, it isn't "just fluff", but it can be. It depends entirely on the individual character concept.

Now can you please end the offtopic? This thread isn't about "Is Charisma beauty?" It's about how Charisma can be trained fluffwise, and (ignoring that it's a mental stat for the sake of the second question) what physical changes could increased Charisma have.I've already given an idea of it in my list, above. In the case of my elf/succubus character, gaining Charisma would take the form of dealing with her issues - or at least learning to hide them better - learning to control her temper, and learning to trust and relax with people.

More generally, it can mean grooming better, developing a better understanding of the sorts of styles that suit oneself, of appearing more self-confident, of studying people and learning better social skills, so on etcetera and so forth.

[Darius Kane]

You CAN make an ugly character with 20 Charisma. But that doesn't mean that appearance is never a part of Charisma.
Didn't say it isn't.

[Flickerdart]

Or do you think that your character's Charisma wouldn't be even higher if he was exactly the same except also really really really really really really good looking?
Really good looking to whom, though?

[Serpentine]

Really good looking to whom, though?Not "to whom", compared with others of his race.

It's worth noting, I think, that a lot of the norms of physical beauty are actually relatively universal. Symmetry, healthy weight, lack of sores and blemishes, non-patchy hair, feathers or scales... They're all attractive features, because they all indicate good health, fertility and general fitness. We think male peacocks are beautiful because female peacocks find that beautiful. We don't need to be into bestiality in order to recognise a fine stallion.

[Felyndiira]

Not "to whom", compared with others of his race.

It's worth noting, I think, that a lot of the norms of physical beauty are actually relatively universal. Symmetry, healthy weight, lack of sores and blemishes, non-patchy hair, feathers or scales... They're all attractive features, because they all indicate good health, fertility and general fitness. We think male peacocks are beautiful because female peacocks find that beautiful. We don't need to be into bestiality in order to recognise a fine stallion.

Just wanted to note, though - disguise self and the polymorph line does not alter your charisma score regardless of how charismatic or beautiful the subject you're morphing into is. This even applies for polymorph, PAO, and wild shape, which directly alters your physical scores to the final creature.

Since the polymorph line allows you to change into a perfect replica of another creature ("you can change into a member of your own kind" in alter self), I think this is a reasonable argument on why, in D&D, charisma is not influenced by appearance.

[TypoNinja]

Just wanted to note, though - disguise self and the polymorph line does not alter your charisma score regardless of how charismatic or beautiful the subject you're morphing into is. This even applies for polymorph, PAO, and wild shape, which directly alters your physical scores to the final creature.

Since the polymorph line allows you to change into a perfect replica of another creature ("you can change into a member of your own kind" in alter self), I think this is a reasonable argument on why, in D&D, charisma is not influenced by appearance.

Except it is, the Abilities section specifically mentions your appearance being a factor of charisma. It's unfortunate but we do have a stat doing double duty. this requires either some handwaving or house rules to reconcile.

In my group we added an Appearance score and that's worked well for us. This the DM got it out of a 3rd party book.

[Snowbluff]

In my group we added an Appearance score and that's worked well for us. This the DM got it out of a 3rd party book.

Probably the BoEF. But don't quote me, I only manage to get this far thanks to taking ADD meds and coffee making me unable to unfocus on what I was doing here.

[Ashtagon]

Concepts of beauty stem from socialization. You are raised into thinking what you find beautiful.

Nope. Scientific research shows from a very young age that babies prefer faces that are more symmetrical and have certain ratios in the proportions of various features.

To a surprisingly large extent, concepts of beauty are genetic.

[Serpentine]

Just wanted to note, though - disguise self and the polymorph line does not alter your charisma score regardless of how charismatic or beautiful the subject you're morphing into is. This even applies for polymorph, PAO, and wild shape, which directly alters your physical scores to the final creature.

Since the polymorph line allows you to change into a perfect replica of another creature ("you can change into a member of your own kind" in alter self), I think this is a reasonable argument on why, in D&D, charisma is not influenced by appearance.Again, appearance is just one small part of what makes a Charisma. If those spells changed your Charisma to that of the creature/individual you're changing into, then that would mean that physical appearance is the entirety of Charisma, and that isn't true either.
If we wanted it to be truly accurate, then we would have to work out exactly what proportion of a character's Charisma score is made up of appearance and how much is internal, and then do the same thing for the creature they're turning into, and then somehow work out how that translates over (because, if we're not assuming that Charisma is entirely based on physical appearance, then we can't just say "you have the Charisma of the target creature" because that doesn't take into account all the other aspects of Charisma; the final Charisma score would have to be the internal factor of the original character combined with the external factor of the target creature).
Given the absurdity of doing that for every single creature, I would just handwave this as an unfortunate but unavoidable inaccuracy. I would also think that any DM who doesn't adjust how people react to characters according to their disguises isn't doing their job properly: a person shouldn't react the same to a beautiful elf maiden when they're disguised as a homely dwarven androgyne, even if they do have the same Charisma; in fact, that's pretty much the point of being in a disguise.
tl;dr: This is an unfortunate inconsistency that only points out the limitations of the rules, rather than proving that appearance has nothing to do with Charisma, and I would expect the DM to incorporate it through circumstantial modifiers and roleplay.

Alternatively... Unless the spell turns you into a specific individual of a race or species, it would be easy enough to just say your Charisma transfers over: if you're a handsome dude, you make a handsome horse. That would be my default. In cases where a specific individual is the disguise or they're attempting to make themselves looks substantially more or less attractive, I'd say that just comes under the associated Bluff/Disguise check: you're doing your best to make people think you're not as ugly/beautiful as you really are. If you fail, some of your natural aspect shines though despite your best efforts.

[willpell]

And the Fey, and all the outsiders, they are all the Human ideal of sexy. A Nymph looks good to a human, but we never see a Nymph for Kobolds, or Orcs.

Reality has a Human bias? :P

Unfortunately this is pretty much inevitable, since we can't possibly know what a lizardman or the like would think nature-spirits and incarnations of Good or Evil should look like, as we have no lizardmen IRL that we can ask. Personally I embrace it. Humans are the "Race of Destiny" anyway, nearly all the gods are human-looking, so I fluff the universe as being (at least currently) in a thoroughly human-dominated state, where all the other races exist "by comparison", though it varies exactly how much they are willing to admit this. The Elves staunchly deny that humanity means anything to them, yet there's no denying that their culture has utterly stagnated while humanity has rose from a few huts to dominate the globe. Lizardmen don't especially care, they're just surviving as best they can, and if the gods are biased against them, they'll just get along without the gods. Orcs, however, tend to have a serious attitude problem toward huamns, though the details vary by tribe.


Exactly! Except not all Evil Outsiders are handsome. A lot of their Cha comes from being cool or their talent for speaking. XD

They are more often based on human standards of supreme hideousness, which is just as much an act of bias as if they're beautiful. (The way I figure it, even a succubus is not beautiful in the way that a nymph is, but rather in an incredibly perverse and compelling way, which you find questionable yet irresistable. Sort of like with a celebrity who is obviously a gigantic mass of plastic surgery and an anorexic to boot - you know that what she's done to her body isn't even remotely healthy and that she's probably damaged in the head to have needed that much modification, but you can't help but agree that the results look good, as long as you don't think too much about what they mean).

[Snowbluff]

Nope. Scientific research shows from a very young age that babies prefer faces that are more symmetrical and have certain ratios in the proportions of various features.

To a surprisingly large extent, concepts of beauty are genetic.

'Very young age' does not refer to newborns. Interacting with others causes socialization, and babies spend a disproportionate amount of time with their mothers , believe it or not, who undoubtedly has a hand in it. Deeper concepts (concept stems from thought, and thought is believed to be preceded by language)are developed as the child grows.

/sociobiological_perspective...-ed

[Darius Kane]

Offtopic. You. Stop. Thank you.

[Rejakor]

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score.

Emphasis mine.

There are two ways to read 'physical attractiveness' in the first sentence.

1. How pretty society would define you to be. I.e. supermodel versus homeless man

2. The harder-to-define 'star power' - the ability to always look good to others regardless of specific scenario or how you actually look - the effect you have on others through body language and other cues that cause others to judge you instantly via their own personal social lexicon. I.e. looks good even after falling in a dumpster vs doesn't look that good even 5 minutes out of the salon


Given the second sentence, i.e. the one that follows the first, it's pretty clear to me which one was actually meant.

Stop defining the thing that obviously was not meant to be defined as 'aesthetic physical beauty' as 'aesthetic physical beauty' and define it as what it obviously was meant to be - ability to shrug off looking ugly/dirty/tired and still be found attractive/interesting/good/cool/awesome by people around you.

Problem Solved.

[Ashtagon]

'Very young age' does not refer to newborns...

Yes it does.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/icd.241/abstract

[Serpentine]

1. How pretty society would define you to be. I.e. supermodel versus homeless manAs I said, physical attractiveness is not just social, but also biological. It can be mutated and distorted by culture, but the fundamentals of it - symmetry, healthy weight, no obvious signs of disease, etc - are evolutionary.

Given the second sentence, i.e. the one that follows the first, it's pretty clear to me which one was actually meant."Not merely" also means "is also". All that says is that Charisma isn't only physical attractiveness, but is also force of personality. Which is, you know, what I've been saying this whole time.

[Rejakor]

There are multiple kinds of 'attractiveness'. Most notable is aesthetic vs inherent. Some things are ugly but are still 'physically attractive'. The modern colloquial use of 'attractive' to mean 'conforming to an individual's ideal of aesthetic beauty' is the problem here - people are assuming, essentially, that 'physical attractiveness' = 'hotness', and the two are not the same in language use or in the context of personality/force of will.

Someone can be seen by an individual as more physically attractive based on their attitude. If the person is interested in you, for example, you will usually see them as more physically attractive than if they are looking away and picking their nose. Again, this is complex so there are no absolutes, for example some people find others' not being interested in them more attractive than them being interested in them, usually because of either very low or very high self-esteem. But it's unlikely that given the two possible meanings of 'has an effect on... physical attractiveness' that it meant that your fashion sense is based on your charisma score. Someone's total attractiveness is based on lots of factors, and fashion sense/groomingness is one of those factors (some people are attracted to lack of grooming, for example). Charisma affects how physically attractive people find you, not your objective appearance.

[Serpentine]

And all that contradicts what I've been saying... how?

[Rejakor]

All that says is that Charisma isn't only physical attractiveness, but is also force of personality. Which is, you know, what I've been saying this whole time.

^^^

Is kind of the complete opposite of my point - which is you can be an orc sorcerer with cha 20 who is very, very ugly - but people will be 'attracted' to him (his leadership, his power, his awesomeness, his intelligence, his /whatever/) regardless. That how you physically look has nothing to do with your cha, and your cha has nothing to do with how you physically look.

[Talya]

That how you physically look has nothing to do with your cha, and your cha has nothing to do with how you physically look.

By RAW, Charisma includes your "physical attractiveness." People can keep saying it has nothing to do with it, but it does.

I argued above that Charisma is an abstraction, that can include your physical attractiveness, but is not bound by it.

One thing is certain: High Charisma may not accurately measure physical attractiveness, but low charisma kills it. A charisma of 8 is never winning a beauty pageant.

[Rejakor]

Read my posts higher up the page.

aesthetic beauty is not the only meaning of the words 'physical attractiveness'.

[Serpentine]

It is one of them, and there's absolutely no reason to assume that all the definitions are not relevant. You can't just deny the relevance of the "physical" in "physical attractiveness".
^^^

Is kind of the complete opposite of my point - which is you can be an orc sorcerer with cha 20 who is very, very ugly - but people will be 'attracted' to him (his leadership, his power, his awesomeness, his intelligence, his /whatever/) regardless. That how you physically look has nothing to do with your cha, and your cha has nothing to do with how you physically look.I've already addressed this several times through the course of this thread. To reiterate: yes, you can have an ugly character with a really high Charisma. If that character was also really attractive, chances are that Charisma would be even higher. But regardless, all that means is that for that specific character, physical appearance does not contribute to their Charisma score - or at least, good looks are not the reason for the large number. For many other characters, physical appearance can be part of or even a major part of the Charisma score.
Physical appearance is one of many factors that can be represented by Charisma. It isn't always, and it isn't never, either. It's exactly the same as how a character with high Intelligence may have a really excellent memory or instead their Intelligence may represent their ability to learn things really quickly, and a low Wisdom may or may not reflect a character's lack of reliable instincts or poor awareness of their surroundings. It is one of many factors, and a character doesn't have to have the exact same level in all of them in order to have a particular score.

[Rejakor]

By the very nature of the english language not all of the definitions of something are relevant at the same time - if two of them are, we call it a 'pun'.

If three, it becomes pun pun, and all life on earth dies.



Intelligence is universal. Your character can have 50 int and yet hate book learning, and that's fine - he still gets that bonus on solving logic puzzles. All characters get their int bonus on solving logic puzzles.

What I don't understand is that when there is a definition that removes the whole 'how pretty is your character' from the charisma equation, which makes so much more sense given the rest of that list and description, people use the much less logical 'how pretty your character is is part of their charisma score' meaning, which usually pretty much universally gets translated by most groups to mean 'if you're ugly, low cha. if you're pretty, high cha'.

[dascarletm]

I find that worlds seem more realistic when you have a good distribution of looks. It seems to take away from the world if every sorcerer is gorgeous, and any class that usually dumps, or at least keeps it low, is uggers.

It can be funny, but tis silly.

Innate magical abilities=good looks.:smalltongue: