DMPC evaluation - riches without overdoing it

[WarKitty]

I've introduced a DMPC to help out several new players survive, and so they can do a tracking/outdoor quest when no one wants to take any tracking skill. She's supposedly the daughter of a very wealthy family, so I've been trying to equip her as would be suitable without throwing my level 1 party for a loop. Was wondering if I could get the playground's opinion on how much is excessive, or if there's any better ways to play up the "rich fighter" idea without unbalancing things.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=456019

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd equip her more with luxury items... things that look expensive, but don't have that much effect in-game. Maybe a masterwork item or two, but nothing too silly. Certainly nothing even remotely magical.

[WarKitty]

I'd equip her more with luxury items... things that look expensive, but don't have that much effect in-game. Maybe a masterwork item or two, but nothing too silly. Certainly nothing even remotely magical.

She's in an area where it would make absolutely no sense to do anything flashy or obviously expensive. What do you want to do, attract more bandits? And by backstory we're dealing with a trained fighter - someone who would know enough to prefer function over looks.

[Flickerdart]

Remember that the 3.5 economy is so jacked up that an extremely wealthy person is still not going to be a match for even a mid-level adventurer in terms of personal fortunes. She might have all-masterwork gear, but magic items (a horse costs 30 times less than a basic +1 magic weapon) are not in the budget.

[WarKitty]

Remember that the 3.5 economy is so jacked up that an extremely wealthy person is still not going to be a match for even a mid-level adventurer in terms of personal fortunes. She might have all-masterwork gear, but magic items (a horse costs 30 times less than a basic +1 magic weapon) are not in the budget.

PF is a *bit* better, but I take the point. I definitely want to give her a wand of CLW.

Also curious about the actual stats and fighting - I have a newbie party and don't want to throw an overoptimized character into the mix. Hopefully there's not too much I can break with a TWF ranger though.

[Invader]

Can you fill me in on what DPMC stands for? I can figure out what it is just not the actual initials :smallconfused:

[WarKitty]

Can you fill me in on what DPMC stands for? I can figure out what it is just not the actual initials :smallconfused:

DM - as in the dungeon master
PC - as in player character

So literally, Dungeon Master Player Character. You'll get a lot of debates on what exactly it means...in this case it's mostly just a semi-permanent NPC that hangs around with the party and is and equal level combatant and not a hireling.

[Invader]

DM - as in the dungeon master
PC - as in player character

So literally, Dungeon Master Player Character. You'll get a lot of debates on what exactly it means...in this case it's mostly just a semi-permanent NPC that hangs around with the party and is and equal level combatant and not a hireling.

Ahh makes perfect sense, thank you :smallbiggrin:

[Acanous]

Pathfinder "Rich Parents" trait gives you 1k GP.
Have her take that trait, twice. Now she's the scion of a rich and noble house.

The rest is as Wealth-By-Level.

You could affoard *A* +1 weapon, or a +1 shield and +1 Armor, or a pair of wands with masterwork gear, or a suit of ordinary full plate, a war horse with tack, barding, and military saddle, and masterwork weapon.

[WarKitty]

Any stuff on my other question? I'm also trying to figure out what's a good optimization level for a DMPC that isn't terribly fragile or always in the background, but isn't going to be too much for the party either.

[Ranting Fool]

Any stuff on my other question? I'm also trying to figure out what's a good optimization level for a DMPC that isn't terribly fragile or always in the background, but isn't going to be too much for the party either.

I would aim for survivable but not over shadowing on the damage front. Oddly enough I have a DMPC in my campaign who is also a ranger. Though he can do a fair bit of damage it is quite below the main dpsers of the party, he tends to hit a lot but only cause small amounts of damage per hit.

[GnomeFighter]

I'm sorry, but I don't see the point in the DMPC at all... The party don't have a skill set is it not better to write to the skill set they do have than to shove in a DMPC? It just seems to scream to me of all the reasons you should not have DMPCs.

[Serpentine]

edit @ ^: first of all, is that really a can of worms you really wanna open? Secondly, I don't think this is the thread in which that can belongs. Kitty has clearly made up her mind, and there is nothing to suggest there is going to be any problem with it nor that her players object. Whether or not you see the point in DMPCs is not really relevant here. Clearly she does, and the subject of the relative value of DMPCs is not relevant here.

One possibility, in addition to giving her generally very good-quality stuff, might be giving her valuable but very specific stuff. So say, going through her skills, a book of lore or somesuch that gives some help on certain knowledge checks (nothing magical, just a mundane reference book, but a proper bound book with good quality colour illustrations and useful information could be worth a fair bit), or a collection of oils and fragrances that helps to calm, attract or repel animals, maybe throw in a telescope. That sort of thing, stuff that's useful and would be really valuable, but that are all really specific in their use.

[prufock]

I'm sorry, but I don't see the point in the DMPC at all... The party don't have a skill set is it not better to write to the skill set they do have than to shove in a DMPC? It just seems to scream to me of all the reasons you should not have DMPCs.

Here we go :) Really, this discussion has taken place enough times and can get pretty heated. I don't think we want to get into the merits and dangers of DMPCs again. The usual outcome is basically "it all depends on how they're used." As long as the DM isn't favouring them, it should be okay. DMPC is really just a fancy NPC.

There are alternatives, of course. Tracking? Buy them a dog - they have scent and can be trained to track. Or just hire a tracker. But DMPCs, especially in a small group, can work.

As for the gear value... they're only level 1. There are things of which you should be careful. For one, the DMPC dies, the party gets her treasure. If they're an opportunistic and morally negligent group, they might even contribute to her death in order to get the treasure. Since they are only level 1, I would just give her maximum starting gold. Rangers get, what, 6d4 x 10 gp or something like that? That would average to 150 gp. Instead of rolling or taking the average, give her the max, 240 gp.

Though I do like the "rich parents trait" idea as well, it might be a bit too much favouritism (or too much temptation for greedy PCs).

[Serpentine]

DMPC is really just a fancy NPC.Or just another PC (and all the risks and benefits that go along with that)... dammit, no discussy!

Though I do like the "rich parents trait" idea as well, it might be a bit too much favouritism (or too much temptation for greedy PCs).One option to avoid that might be to mostly have things that benefit the whole group, like the want Kitty mentioned she used. But the trouble with that is boosting the whole group's power level. I'm still inclined to go with really specific, situational but high-value stuff.

[WarKitty]

As far as the DMPC - it's not just about them not having a skill. She's also sort of a D&D combat trainer and survivability aid. I have an exceptionally squishy party of people that haven't really played before. I'm also not convinced that they're yet in-character and directed enough to not need the occasional push to get moving. Plus it makes sense plot-wise - they're untried fighters on a rescue mission, why would they be sent out on their own?

In any case - I updated her sheet. Masterwork weapons and armor and a CLW wand, but really not much else. I'm going to get them at least to level 2 (possibly 3) before too much serious combat happens, to avoid getting into the randomness of level 1 combat. So all of them are sitting between level 2 and 3 WBL right now.

[Asheram]

First, my apologies to you, Serpentine, I know you wanted no discussion so I'm not going to make one, I'm just saying two cents about my experience and then shutting up about it.

In theory, this makes for a fun thing. I've made the exact same thing in my campaign once and what it became was a train on a set of rails. Since it made sense for the character to teach the others and tell them what to do, it made the other players react instead of act and that's no fun in an roleplaying campaign.
I admit that most of the things were my fault and should have been handled differently, but please, make sure that they know that even if she guides the way, They are the bosses, not her.

Anyhow, back on track. I'm not really sure how you would like to equip her. She's a Level 1 npc and there's not really much to give her, she might be wealthy but (in my opinion) daddy wouldn't throw out too much wealth on his little girl playing ranger. Wealthy is wealthy, but you forget that a piece of gold is actually A Lot in the game and even if we talk later about high-level adventurers throwing gold about themselves, they are practically rich as kings. But I digress again... Say... 300gp, tops, for her equipment?

[WarKitty]

Anyhow, back on track. I'm not really sure how you would like to equip her. She's a Level 1 npc and there's not really much to give her, she might be wealthy but (in my opinion) daddy wouldn't throw out too much wealth on his little girl playing ranger. Wealthy is wealthy, but you forget that a piece of gold is actually A Lot in the game and even if we talk later about high-level adventurers throwing gold about themselves, they are practically rich as kings. But I digress again... Say... 300gp, tops, for her equipment?

Just a quick caveat - I modeled the society a lot more on ancient Rome, including the idea that military leadership is the best path to political power. So we're talking about an ex-military father funding his daughter. (Actually one of the big motivations right now is that he's mad that his son is wasting his money on books and instruments.)

[Asheram]

Just a quick caveat - I modeled the society a lot more on ancient Rome, including the idea that military leadership is the best path to political power. So we're talking about an ex-military father funding his daughter. (Actually one of the big motivations right now is that he's mad that his son is wasting his money on books and instruments.)

Ah, then we're on the other side of the coin... What does he have in store for her future? Will he marry her off or will she "be her own woman" so to speak?

[WarKitty]

Ah, then we're on the other side of the coin... What does he have in store for her future? Will he marry her off or will she "be her own woman" so to speak?

I decided not to incorporate old gender values into the game. So the assumption is that she's the default heir for the family name. Particularly as he regards her brother as essentially worthless.

Incidentally, she's on this mission because he decided that he didn't want to make his son running off public knowledge by hiring armed guards and chasing after her. Hence the recruitment of the PC's, who are private persons from his own lands. Hmmm...maybe he'll try to off the PC's once they get back? That would be fun.

[Spuddles]

I would give your ranger defensive stuff. Rich people like to spend a lot of money on not dying. +1 armor, +1 ring of ac, partially charged wand of CLW, a horse with a studded leather barding. MW versions of everything.

Featwise, go toughness, dodge, two weapon defense, combat reflexes. Equip her with a glaive so she threatens at 10 feet, but she likes to fight up close with gauntlets, boot knives, and armor spikes.

You'll end up with a high AC character that has reasonable damage output relative to the party and can also protect the squishier party members.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Serpentine
...or a collection of oils and fragrances that helps to calm, attract or repel animals, maybe throw in a telescope.

I like these ideas, and they shouldn't throw off the character's wealth too much. (The PHB spyglass is absurdly overpriced, even by PHB standards. In my seafaring campaign I let a decent glass go for 100-200 gp.) The oils and fragrances would be perfect for a low-level ranger.


Originally Posted by WarKitty
Hmmm...maybe he'll try to off the PC's once they get back?

If the society has parallels to ancient Rome, and the father is patriarch of a latifundium, then he can easily make slaves of the PCs and send them to work in some obscure corner of his holdings, maybe a quarry or a mine, where life expectancies are generally brief and accidents of all sorts can happen.

For more fun, separate them, and have them widely scattered across his possessions.

:smallbiggrin:

[WarKitty]

If the society has parallels to ancient Rome, and the father is patriarch of a latifundium, then he can easily make slaves of the PCs and send them to work in some obscure corner of his holdings, maybe a quarry or a mine, where life expectancies are generally brief and accidents of all sorts can happen.

For more fun, separate them, and have them widely scattered across his possessions.

:smallbiggrin:

That's sort of the idea. Of course the way I have it set up, they'll hopefully be level 4 or 5 by then in a world where most cities don't have anyone over level 6 or 7.

[Acanous]

The "Rich Parents Trait" idea was mostly to provide a book-source standard what you can point to and say "This build is entirely legal". Plus it makes sense for her background, and gives you a "Real" total she can work within.
If the PCs try to kill her, well, they're all lv 1, she's a pretty hardy class, and she's got better gear, as well as more applicable wilderness survival skills. And they work for her dad. Who probably owns their parents or immediate family members.

Just sayin'.

Hey, if they're willing to betray their lord, their families, and commit murder for profit, endangering their own lives in the process? That's an awesome start to an Evil campaign, and gives the party a reason to stick together, as well.

But I digress, the MWK gear and wand is well within acceptable prices. Good gaming :3

[Flickerdart]

Hey, if they're willing to betray their lord, their families, and commit murder for profit, endangering their own lives in the process? That's an awesome start to an Evil campaign, and gives the party a reason to stick together, as well. par for the course for adventurers.
Fixed that for you.

[only1doug]

Incidentally, she's on this mission because he decided that he didn't want to make his son running off public knowledge by hiring armed guards and chasing after her. Hence the recruitment of the PC's, who are private persons from his own lands. Hmmm...maybe he'll try to off the PC's once they get back? That would be fun.

Perhaps he has already instructed his daughter that the party are dispensible, and to make sure that they are dispensed with before they can talk...

Perhaps the daughter has her own agenda and wants to ensure that her father doesn't change his mind regarding inheritance roles, so if her brother has an 'accident' while being rescued...

(ooops, that DMPC could actually be the BBEG)