Charisma SAD help

[Azoth]

Hello boys and girls. I am looking to make a Cha SAD mele character that is effective in combat. All 3.5 open for grabs with dragon and dungeon being viewed on a case by case basis. This is a Gestalt game, and I am really want to be a mobile striker more than a tank and I am not looking for a full caster one side. Probably pulling double duty as the party face. Not sure of the starting level but probably between 5-10 with a 32pb.

[Hylas]

This will be asked eventually, but what about a partial caster, like a bard?

[Snowbluff]

BArds are great for Cha SAD, thanks to Slippers of Battle Dancing.

Divine Might (IIRC), the Divine Feat that lets you have Cha to some melee.

Battle Dancer or Ascetic Mage for Cha to AC. Maybe take some Paladin or for the Turning?

Thunderlance, as well as a few other weapon spells, use Cha for hit and Damage. Black Blade of Disaster is my favorite version.

Also, Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows, and Echoblade (Great for Bard!)

[NichG]

What is the degree of optimization at your table, and what is the tolerance for weird mechanics?

Snowflake Wardance and Slippers of Battledancing together will give you a nice boost from your Cha. You need bardic music for the dance, so base it on Bard, but then you can get creative afterwards. Dervish would work decently with the movement requirements. There are probably other crazy things you can do with bard too. Be human and add a level of Lion Totem barbarian for Pounce. If you could squeeze in martial adept levels it might be worth it later on when your IL from other classes is high enough - I doubt you can, but if you can snag the swift-action teleport from Shadow Hand then you never have to worry about being unable to set up for your charge (barring impossible terrains). Since you're a bard, you could go for Ascetic Mage, but you need a source of Wis to AC first - try Swordsage. Eventually you may want Cha to saves, which you can get from half a dozen PrCs, but they're usually either divine or profane in theme, so be prepared for that.

I guess I'm imagining something like:
Lion Totem Barbarian 1, Bard 4, Swordsage 3, then PrC and/or advance Swordsage/Bard in lockstep.

Alternately: Paladin as a chassis, get a charger, use the slippers (yeah, this is kinda silly, but you just have to move 10ft, not walk 10ft), and combine with all the random spirited charge/etc stuff. Upgrade to a flying mount eventually. Rhino's Rush is nice too. Combine with Iaijutsu and make that first strike really count. Multiclass into Marshal when you have all you want from Paladin, and be the party's best friend.

[Venger]

check out the cha section of x stat to y bonus to make that cha work its hardest for you

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732

[The-Mage-King]

Stand aside, fellows. I've got this.


Take this rough build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11335643&postcount=5).

Apply Bard or similar to the other side of it.


That should do it.


You might want to trade out some Crusader for Marshal or Warblade.

Warblade for the more "I'll jump around, cutting people" feel, Marshal for the "Lol Cha to everything" feel.

[Snowbluff]

Umm... 2 levels o f Paladin gets you Divine Grace and a 4th gets you turning for divine feats. What possessed to you go Crusader of all things?

Also, don't go past level 1 in Marshal.

[Azoth]

I am fine with partial casters. I was thinking of using a magic blooded human and going spellthief//battle dancer/paladin as the base for cha to AC/Saves, some decent skill point for the social fun skills. Going unarmed and unarmored. Planned on dervish later with the slippers on the paladin side.

We generally go for mid op. I figured spamming out alot of attacks at full BAB with SA, craven, and the dervish bonuses should give me some decent damage and keep me from recieving too many full attack retaliations. Also running some minor debuff due to the ability to take away a spell caster's spells, his buddies buffs, and the like.

[The-Mage-King]

Umm... 2 levels o f Paladin gets you Divine Grace and a 4th gets you turning for divine feats. What possessed to you go Crusader of all things?

The fact that paladin restricts you to Lawful Good with a code? Crusader is a safer bet when dealing with an unknown factor (DM who may or may not hate Paladins/think the Ex-Paladins section means he needs to make them fall).


And Crusader is ToB. I like ToB.


Also, don't go past level 1 in Marshal.

Except in Gestalt, you can afford to spare a level or two. Though levels other than 1st of Marshal are bad....

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Gloura (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e), minimum starting level 9th, +20 BAB and Bard 20 casting at 20th level. Alignment starts NE, goes LE, back to NE, and ends up at CE (beginning play).
1. LA 1// (fallen) Wolf-Totem Barbarian 1, Lion Spirit ACF, Power Attack
2. LA 2// (fallen) Wolf-Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) 2, Improved Trip
3. Fey 1// Fighter 1, Cleave, Improved Sunder
4. Fey 2// (fallen) Cobra-Strike Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) 1, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will (for 3,000 gp via the Otyugh Hole)
5. Fey 3// (fallen) Cobra-Strike Monk 2, Mobility
6. Fey 4// Fighter 2, Improved Bull Rush, Ascetic Mage
7. Fey 5// Blackguard 1
8. Fey 6// Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) 1
9. Fey 7// Arcane Duelist 2, Shock Trooper
10. Bard 1// Blackguard 2
11. Bard 2// Arcane Duelist 3
12. Bard 3// Blackguard 3, Knock-Down
13. Bard 4// Mystic Wanderer 1
14. Bard 5// Arcane Duelist 4
15. Bard 6// Arcane Duelist 5, Divine Might
16. Bard 7// Arcane Duelist 6
17. Bard 8// Arcane Duelist 7
18. Bard 9// Arcane Duelist 8, Elusive Target
19. Bard 10// Arcane Duelist 9
20. Bard 11// Arcane Duelist 10

AC bonuses: Cha (deflection, race), Cha (dodge, arcane duelist), Cha (untyped, monk), Cha (profane, mystic wanderer).
Saving throw bonuses: Cha (untyped, race), Cha (untyped, blackguard).

Use a two-handed piercing weapon (I prefer reach, a Ranseur works) with a Wand Chamber containing a Wand of Wraithstrike or Rhino's Rush which you UMD. Perform a dive attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly) (expanded to work with any piercing weapon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) on a humanoid) with Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Dextrous Attack, and Divine Might, and full attack at the end of that charge. At level 9 with Str 14 that's a +14 to hit with a masterwork weapon and charging, for 4d4+42 damage, and you can get +1 to hit for -1 damage up to a difference of +/-9 (but that's applied before damage is doubled). With a Wand of Rhino's Rush it's instead 6d4+63 damage, or with a Wand of Wraithstrike it's a touch attack. You could also get a +1 Valorous weapon for another doubling on the damage. Don't forget you can cast Haste to get an extra attack out of that.

Chaotic Evil with Bard 20 casting basically has The Joker written all over it.

[Fable Wright]

Personally, I like Bard 7/Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 9/Abjurant Champion 4. You get a huge number of Bard spells and abilities to boost Charisma, including access to Snowflake Wardance, you get some spells to take advantage of your high Charisma score, and you get some nice mobility options and miss percentage chances, which to wonders for builds.

On the other side, you could go with Paladin of Freedom all the way if you take Battle Blessing, opening up Turn Undead abuses (especially if you choose to be an Illumian), along with Swift action casting time spells via Battle Blessing that are actually pretty good in combat. There are a number of Paladin variants out there that you can use to trade out your special mount (I think the one in Dungeonscape is the best, personally), and others for getting rid of Remove Disease (including Mystic Fire Knight, trading it for Greater Dispel Magic and upping uses to per day instead of per week).

Benefits: Good social skills (Glibness), lots of mobility (from Swiftblade), abusing Charisma to it's max (Divine Favor, Snowflake Wardance, Turn Undead on an Illumian, Smite Evil), and a low level of spellcasting. You get some good combat buffs out of the Paladin list (especially with Spell Compendium), good out of combat spells on the Bard list (and some good control ones, if you need them), and general Charisma-based everything.

[Wookie-ranger]

I would go Dread Necromancer8/ Dread Witch x/ something x on one side.
It will net you an ok touch attack at the beginning; its 'only' 1d8, but its a touch attack. If you are undead (Necropolitan for example) you get free out of combat healing. You get Rebuke, which is not a bad thing to have.
You are also proficient in one martial weapon which is ok, but not a big thing.
oh, and you are proficient in light armor, which is not a bad thing.
at level 2 you get DR2 with is nice for melee!
at level 3 you get a negative energy burst, use only if you are undead (or immune) as it will hit you too. As undead it will heal you! 1d4 per class level, DC is 10+1/2class+Cha modifier.

at level 5 you get a fear aura that can be a VERY nice debuff when you focus on melee. The DC is 10+1/2class+Cha modifier.
there is some debate about when to PC out of Dread Necro, but for a melee build it would most likely be 7 or 8.
level 7 gets you DR4 and a familiar that is pretty sturdy (such as the imp in wolf form, aka your tripping buddy)
while level 8 gets you an additional use of negative energy burst every day and +1 on your charnal touch attack (the last one is pretty unimportant by now though)

once you get into Dread Witch you can make everything fear you including those with resistance/immunity to it. This can be a very nice debuff at higher levels, if you can get close enough.

for the other side you could get a Sorcerer that has a lot of melee focused spells (buff/debuff), but the armor might be an issue.

[Snowbluff]

Affirmative. Still, you'd be better off finding a source of Divine Grace, if able. Most of them are good, though.

[Azoth]

Why would someone eat 9LA for +6 cha. Unearthly grace is nice, but you can get the equivalent with battle dance 1/paladin2. For +6 CHA we could go magic blooded unseelie fey star elf. Grabted you eat some con and str loss, but gain better than you lose for +0LA.

Again. I am digging battle dancer/paladin/dervish on one side. I am liking spellthief on the other side for my build idea. Is their anyway to turn this into something good and or powerful for a mid op to low hi op group?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Why would someone eat 9LA for +6 cha. Unearthly grace is nice, but you can get the equivalent with battle dance 1/paladin2. For +6 CHA we could go magic blooded unseelie fey star elf. Grabted you eat some con and str loss, but gain better than you lose for +0LA.

It's only +2 LA, and 7 racial HD at 6 skill points/level, Wizard BAB, and decent base saves. For that you get +6 Cha, +10 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Wis, Fly 60 ft. (good), Bard 7 casting, Cha bonus to both AC and saving throws, DR 10/Cold Iron.... Also don't forget that my build adds your Cha bonus to your AC four times, and to your saving throws twice. Yes, all those stack, as long as bonuses are of different types, and untyped bonuses don't come from sources of the same name, it stacks just fine.

[Snowbluff]

It's only +2 LA, and 7 racial HD at 6 skill points/level, Wizard BAB, and decent base saves. For that you get +6 Cha, +10 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Wis, Fly 60 ft. (good), Bard 7 casting, Cha bonus to both AC and saving throws, DR 10/Cold Iron.... Also don't forget that my build adds your Cha bonus to your AC four times, and to your saving throws twice. Yes, all those stack, as long as bonuses are of different types, and untyped bonuses don't come from sources of the same name, it stacks just fine.

Evolved Undead get +2 Cha/LA. It would get you alot further for this exercise. Be a like a Evolved Grave Touched Ghoul. For. The. Win.

[Wookie-ranger]

or you could use Spark and lesser Aasimar and get +4Cha for LA+0

[Draz74]

While you have lots of great options, as evidenced by all the replies so far, you should look up Dulcinea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9321125&postcount=154) if you're not already familiar with her. She's an Iron Chef winner who uses Paladin, Binder, and Blade Bravo to be a pretty good skirmisher.

[Ulm11]

I don't know if it has been mentioned but Iaijutsu master is your friend. As long as you can find a dependable way to flat foot most opponents you can chuck around a nice handful of dice depending upon your Iaijutsu level and if you happen to have a custom crafted Iaijutsu item. Combine that with their level five ability to add their charisma bonus to each damage dice from an Iaijutsu strike should lead to a nice amount of damage.

[Wise Green Bean]

Surprised nobody mentioned it yet, but the sorcadin benefit hugely from CHA. Not quite SAD, but there are things you could do to squeeze CHA a bit more. CHA for spells, DCs, and to saves is already quite good, and there's smite(though that part doesn't [I]really/I] matter).

[Malroth]

If Iaijutsu master is on the table i'd definately jump through hoops to qualify. (Rokugan Samurai, Factotum, Expert, and Human Paragon are the only ways i can think of) adding in 10x your CHA mod to damage 2-6 times per round and getting automatic surprise round action every fight are very nice things for a melee guy.

[Rejakor]

Um, +2 LA for +6 cha +10 dex +other stats, cha to saves (stacks with all other sources of cha to saves), cha to ac (stacks with all other sources of cha to AC), DR cold iron and other stuff sounds like a great deal to me.

Think of the racial HD as levels in bard - you're getting what you want out of them anyway.

The only thing i'd do differently in that build is Sublime Chord at level 11 to fast-track access to nixie's grace, sirine's grace, and snowsong. I'd dip Arcane Duelist, and also pick up Talfirian Song and Metamagic Song and Persist Spell (bonus feats possibly necessary for all of that) to get up and keep up a few cha-related buffs (like the grace spells, and snowsong, largely, although others help (like greater invis, one of the few reasons to be a pixie).


EDIT: +1 LA for +2 cha from Evolved is a terrible, terrible trade.

And there's no reason you can't be a magic-blooded unseelie gloura/pixie.

[Snowbluff]

Um, +2 LA for +6 cha +10 dex +other stats, cha to saves (stacks with all other sources of cha to saves), cha to ac (stacks with all other sources of cha to AC), DR cold iron and other stuff sounds like a great deal to me.

Think of the racial HD as levels in bard - you're getting what you want out of them anyway.


*facepalm*

9 LA in Evolved Undead would get you +9 Nat Armor, +18 Cha and Str, and 9 SLAs.

x7 Evolved Gravetouched Ghoul (+9 LA) gives you 9 Nat Armor, +16 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Int (Skill points), +4 Wisdom, +16 Cha. And some natural attacks, 7 SLAs, Turn Resistance, Paralyzing Touch, and a Partridge in a Pear Tree.

This is before you get apply your original race, with it's preexisting templates like Spark.

[Sith_Happens]

Personally, I like Bard 7/Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 9/Abjurant Champion 4. You get a huge number of Bard spells and abilities to boost Charisma, including access to Snowflake Wardance, you get some spells to take advantage of your high Charisma score, and you get some nice mobility options and miss percentage chances, which to wonders for builds.

On the other side, you could go with Paladin of Freedom all the way if you take Battle Blessing, opening up Turn Undead abuses (especially if you choose to be an Illumian), along with Swift action casting time spells via Battle Blessing that are actually pretty good in combat. There are a number of Paladin variants out there that you can use to trade out your special mount (I think the one in Dungeonscape is the best, personally), and others for getting rid of Remove Disease (including Mystic Fire Knight, trading it for Greater Dispel Magic and upping uses to per day instead of per week).

Benefits: Good social skills (Glibness), lots of mobility (from Swiftblade), abusing Charisma to it's max (Divine Favor, Snowflake Wardance, Turn Undead on an Illumian, Smite Evil), and a low level of spellcasting. You get some good combat buffs out of the Paladin list (especially with Spell Compendium), good out of combat spells on the Bard list (and some good control ones, if you need them), and general Charisma-based everything.

Needs more Ruby Knight Windicator on the Paladin side, but besides that I like this.

[Snowbluff]

Needs more Ruby Knight Windicator on the Paladin side, but besides that I like this.

Swiftblade//Windicator? Oh god, that is so messed up. As if either one's action economy wasn't totally OP. :smallbiggrin:

[Rejakor]

*facepalm*

9 LA in Evolved Undead would get you +9 Nat Armor, +18 Cha and Str, and 9 SLAs.

x7 Evolved Gravetouched Ghoul (+9 LA) gives you 9 Nat Armor, +16 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Int (Skill points), +4 Wisdom, +16 Cha. And some natural attacks, 7 SLAs, Turn Resistance, Paralyzing Touch, and a Partridge in a Pear Tree.

This is before you get apply your original race, with it's preexisting templates like Spark.

And you're stacking templates like a madman, which is boring, and so much easier to break in other ways. Like, at that point, why not just play a vampire lord? Might as well.

Only works as a viable alternative thanks to gestalt covering you for the immense LA expenditure (standard gestalt rules suggest LA should be taken on both sides of the gestalt - they do not say this about Racial Hit Dice).

And better yet, the 7 RHD of Gloura get you bard casting so you don't have to fritz around with sanctum spell heightened cantrips in order to get into Sublime Chord. You get a legitimate entry into a prestige class that sets you up to have 9th level spells and also gives you access to some of the best CHA buffs in the game.

So yeah, you can spam evolved onto a ghoul but it's bloody boring, and messy. Gloura (or say, pixie) is a lot neater, and a lot more elegant.

[Snowbluff]

It's just an example. I was just showing how helpful the Cha bonuses could be to a Cha SAD character.

The R HD are infinitely better, thanks to the Bard casting. Thanks for pointing that out. Otherwise NEVER eat level for R HD.

[Talionis]

Ascetic Mage -- Monk (LOL)

As an idea for a low op game, with Gestalt getting good saves and some of the Monk benefits can be fun. Ascetic Mage feat changes the Monk abilities to key off Charisma.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The fact that paladin restricts you to Lawful Good with a code? Crusader is a safer bet when dealing with an unknown factor (DM who may or may not hate Paladins/think the Ex-Paladins section means he needs to make them fall).


And Crusader is ToB. I like ToB.



Except in Gestalt, you can afford to spare a level or two. Though levels other than 1st of Marshal are bad....

Paladin of freedom says hi! Andd if your DM thinks paladins MUST fall you have other problems at the table.

[Snowbluff]

Ascetic Mage -- Monk (LOL)

As an idea for a low op game, with Gestalt getting good saves and some of the Monk benefits can be fun. Ascetic Mage feat changes the Monk abilities to key off Charisma.

We already have Battle Dancer. Full BaB and Cha to AC at first level.

[The-Mage-King]

Paladin of freedom says hi! Andd if your DM thinks paladins MUST fall you have other problems at the table.

Eh. I also dislike paladin as a class, or did back when that was originally posted.

[Metahuman1]

If your gonna use Pally, use it right. Take Paladin of freedom, and PRC out for a couple of levels to Grey Guard. Get the Paladin AFC that grants Cha to AC, and let Grey Guard give divine grace. Cha to Saves AND to AC, minimal Conduct restrictions between being pally of freedom and Grey Guard, and Immunity to mind effecting stuffs at lvl 3. Take a 4th lvl for Turn undead goodness.

Ok, now tack on a lvl of Witch Hunter for Cha to saves a second time. Then tack on a level of Battle Dancer for Cha to AC. If your doing Bard on the opposite side, good, cause now on this side there's room for Cha to AC a third time form Arcane Duelist dip. From there, Binder is your friend. Take three levels, then improved Bind Vestage. PRC out if possible to Knight of the Sacred Seal. The idea being to get it to where you can Bind Paimon and use his once every five rounds trick once a round.

Other things you want. Two levels of Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Barbarian for pounce and Improved trip. A level of Cleric for Some more Turn undead, Knowledge Devotion (use with Bardic Knack.) and Travel devotion (Swift action movement is amazing.), two levels of Sublime Cord (Only if you really push optimizing inspire courage. Good luck on that with all the Dips and PRC dips your making.) So that one action can activate both Inspire courage and Dragonfire Inspiration. A dip of Warblade gives you some of the most awesome maneuvers in the game, including some for mobility, some for damage, and some for get out of crap free cards (Iron Heart Surge anyone.) and some for just spiffy to have. (White raven tactics.)

And hey, Add Knock down and Stand Still, and you can drive the enemy's crazey, moving all over the place, smacking them once with a one handed weapon with bardic music powering it up, only for them to take a not insignificant amount of damage and be stuck there prone till next turn.


Again, I don't think it can all be fitted in there, but it gives some ideas.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

X stat to Y bonuses that all stack with each other:

Cha to AC: Monk + Ascetic Mage, requires arcane casting. There's a Chaos Monk variant in Dragon 335. Unarmored only.
Cha to AC: Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a), requires arcane casting, you can get its feat prerequisites for free from Cobra-Strike Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) 2.
Cha to AC: Mystic Wanderer (MoF), requires divine casting, you can get its feat prerequisite for 3,000 gp via the Otyugh Hole. Requires a chaotic alignment. Unarmored only.

Cha to Saves: Blackguard, also gives divine casting to qualify for Mystic Wanderer. Grants Rebuke Undead for divine feats.
Cha to Saves: Paladin (of Freedom or Tyranny or Slaughter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny)), possibly even Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) instead. Requires LG/CG/LE/CE alignment.
Cha to Melee Damage: Divine Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineMight), costs one turn/rebuke attempt to activate and lasts for one round per use.
Cha to Cha-based checks: Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b), and yes this lets you add your Cha bonus a second time to any Cha-based skill checks and ability checks.

Cha to both AC and Saves: Gloura (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e), provides enough arcane casting to get both Ascetic Mage and Arcane Duelist.


That means for investing 10 levels, five feats, and 3,000 gp into Arcane Duelist 2, Blackguard 3 with prerequisites and Divine Might, Mystic Wanderer 1, Paladin (of Slaughter) 2, and (Chaos) Cobra-Strike Monk 2 with Ascetic Mage, you'll add your Cha bonus to your AC three times and to your saving throws twice, and also to your melee damage for one round at a time 3+Cha/day. You'll need to be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells from somewhere to get all of that, and it locks you into a CE alignment.

Gloura will make that add your Cha bonus to AC four times and to your saving throws three times instead, it gives you the arcane casting to qualify for all of that, gives you flight and the ability to make dive attacks for double damage, considerable stat bonuses, etc. It's not required, but it does have tons of synergy.

Also worth mentioning is what you get at Arcane Duelist 3 and 4. At 3 you get Dextrous Attack, which allows you to add +1 to hit for every -1 damage up to your BAB. Considering two-handed Power Attack is +2 damage for every -1 to hit up to your BAB, you can pull some free-bonus shenanigans. For example, combine Power Attack for 10 with Dextrous Attack for 10 and you get a net +0 to hit and +10 damage. Combine Power Attack for 5 with Dextrous Attack for 10 and you get a net +5 to hit and +0 damage. Arcane Duelist's 1st and 4th level abilities stack with any enhancement bonus your weapon may already have. If you're using a +4 weapon, it goes up to +6 from that and overcomes DR/Epic. Or you could use a +1 Ability A Ability B weapon, put Greater Magic Weapon +5 on it every day, and it ends up being a +7 weapon.