RFLS
2012-10-24, 11:08 PM
Overspill from another thread that originally had a completely different topic found here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259300) Reposting relevant bits of text. Anyway, the question is "is the swashbuckler class ever a valid choice?" You can see both sides so far; I picked the bits of text that best summed up. I also edited a little, both of us got a little less that civil >.< at least, I did. Anyway. Here it is, there's the question, I'll be more polite this time through. I'd really like the playground's thoughts on the matter.
Daring Outlaw gets you your 4th iterative, which, if you're sneak attacking, is a minimum of an extra 10d6 damage on a full attack. It also buffs the Rogue's Fort save and its HD. I'm 100% sure that a Swashbuckler 4/Rogue 16 does more damage than a Rogue 20 and has better survivability.
Mathematically, you've traded a feat slot, 16 skill points, 4 levels of good save, delayed rogue talents, delayed trap sense, delayed evasion, and delayed uncanny dodge for a feat slot, an good save, a bonus to another save, an iterative, more HP, and Int to damage. That looks like an even trade to me, even in the vaccuum assuming you're not PrCing out of Rogue.
Cancelling everything out gets you trading 4 levels of rogue talents, trap sense, delayed evasion, and delayed uncanny dodge for a +3 to a save, a 4th iterative, better HP, and Int to damage. That looks like a good trade to me.
3 extra points of fort save, 2 extra hp per level (on average, so over 4 levels, 8 hp), and 1 extra BAB. Oh, and int to damage.
There is one, and only one, possible use for Swashbuckler. And that is when you are planning, for whatever reason, to only ever go to Rogue 5. And you're planning to take Weapon Finesse because PHBII is banned and so Feycraft isn't an option and you don't want thrown weapons for concept reasons. And you have high int for unrelated reasons. So what you do then is you take Daring Outlaw and go Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3. You pick up all the reasons to be a swashbuckler (int to damage, free weapon finesse) and get the hell out of the class. You're not planning to go pure rogue, so uncanny dodge is less good for you, and you're not delaying getting Crippling Strike so you don't mind not taking the filler rogue levels in between evasion and crippling strike.
The swashbuckler 4/rogue 16 plan, gets you BAB 16 at level 20, i.e. the level that never gets played. That gets you, with perfect two weapon fighting, i.e. a feat, 2 extra attacks. At that level, you should have 7 or so attacks already, not counting natural attacks, attacks granted by items, a braid blade, any magic effects or skill tricks or templates that grant additional attacks, etc. And that's if you're melee only. If you're willing to use ranged attacks, you should be doing about 16, since there is a class for you, and it's called Master Thrower. Which you can feel free to enter after Rogue 10, because you don't really want or need any of the rogue talents other than crippling strike.
Worse, these attacks are at your lowest iterative attack - fine if you're hitting flat footed touch AC, but that's not always possible, and a -15 to hit will tend to make you miss a fair percentage of the time.
8hp is peanuts at any level beyond first. A decent con score and con boosting items will do you in much greater stead, and given how incredibly hard enemies tend to hit for, unless you have miss chances or good AC, you're likely not going to live in melee anyway, 8hp or no 8hp.
+3 Fort might save your life, but there are seriously magic items that give +3 to fort saves that stack with your cloak of resistance... wasting four levels on it is a waste. Especially when that means you get Crippling Strike at level 14, not at level 10 when it's way awesome to have.
1 extra BAB is +1 to hit, which you could forget you even had. Hell, don't bother with weapon finesse, don't bother with daring outlaw, take weapon focus, that king of feats, and you've just gained that magical +1 to hit. Exactly the same as taking daring outlaw and 4 levels in swashbuckler.
Compare it to a 2 level dip in fighter. You lose 1d6 sneak attack, and gain 2 feats which can speed entry into anything, or make some combo available to you. That's actually worthwhile, in some circumstances. Lots of concepts could benefit from taking that dip. Swashbuckler dip at best makes you incredibly slightly better at hitting things(+1 to hit) and taking damage(8hp +3 fort -1 ref), and at the same time makes the eventual payoff of the rogue class (crippling strike) 4 levels further away. It's just not worth it. The int to damage is basically the sole redeeming feature of the class - and some int-focused rogues might go for it based on that - but not if the game is expected to go to level 10 or better. It's a short term gain for a long term loss. A massive long term loss. And most int-focused rogues are doing it for the skill points.. taking that 4 level hit on skills would be rather painful for them.
Daring Outlaw gets you your 4th iterative, which, if you're sneak attacking, is a minimum of an extra 10d6 damage on a full attack. It also buffs the Rogue's Fort save and its HD. I'm 100% sure that a Swashbuckler 4/Rogue 16 does more damage than a Rogue 20 and has better survivability.
Mathematically, you've traded a feat slot, 16 skill points, 4 levels of good save, delayed rogue talents, delayed trap sense, delayed evasion, and delayed uncanny dodge for a feat slot, an good save, a bonus to another save, an iterative, more HP, and Int to damage. That looks like an even trade to me, even in the vaccuum assuming you're not PrCing out of Rogue.
Cancelling everything out gets you trading 4 levels of rogue talents, trap sense, delayed evasion, and delayed uncanny dodge for a +3 to a save, a 4th iterative, better HP, and Int to damage. That looks like a good trade to me.
3 extra points of fort save, 2 extra hp per level (on average, so over 4 levels, 8 hp), and 1 extra BAB. Oh, and int to damage.
There is one, and only one, possible use for Swashbuckler. And that is when you are planning, for whatever reason, to only ever go to Rogue 5. And you're planning to take Weapon Finesse because PHBII is banned and so Feycraft isn't an option and you don't want thrown weapons for concept reasons. And you have high int for unrelated reasons. So what you do then is you take Daring Outlaw and go Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3. You pick up all the reasons to be a swashbuckler (int to damage, free weapon finesse) and get the hell out of the class. You're not planning to go pure rogue, so uncanny dodge is less good for you, and you're not delaying getting Crippling Strike so you don't mind not taking the filler rogue levels in between evasion and crippling strike.
The swashbuckler 4/rogue 16 plan, gets you BAB 16 at level 20, i.e. the level that never gets played. That gets you, with perfect two weapon fighting, i.e. a feat, 2 extra attacks. At that level, you should have 7 or so attacks already, not counting natural attacks, attacks granted by items, a braid blade, any magic effects or skill tricks or templates that grant additional attacks, etc. And that's if you're melee only. If you're willing to use ranged attacks, you should be doing about 16, since there is a class for you, and it's called Master Thrower. Which you can feel free to enter after Rogue 10, because you don't really want or need any of the rogue talents other than crippling strike.
Worse, these attacks are at your lowest iterative attack - fine if you're hitting flat footed touch AC, but that's not always possible, and a -15 to hit will tend to make you miss a fair percentage of the time.
8hp is peanuts at any level beyond first. A decent con score and con boosting items will do you in much greater stead, and given how incredibly hard enemies tend to hit for, unless you have miss chances or good AC, you're likely not going to live in melee anyway, 8hp or no 8hp.
+3 Fort might save your life, but there are seriously magic items that give +3 to fort saves that stack with your cloak of resistance... wasting four levels on it is a waste. Especially when that means you get Crippling Strike at level 14, not at level 10 when it's way awesome to have.
1 extra BAB is +1 to hit, which you could forget you even had. Hell, don't bother with weapon finesse, don't bother with daring outlaw, take weapon focus, that king of feats, and you've just gained that magical +1 to hit. Exactly the same as taking daring outlaw and 4 levels in swashbuckler.
Compare it to a 2 level dip in fighter. You lose 1d6 sneak attack, and gain 2 feats which can speed entry into anything, or make some combo available to you. That's actually worthwhile, in some circumstances. Lots of concepts could benefit from taking that dip. Swashbuckler dip at best makes you incredibly slightly better at hitting things(+1 to hit) and taking damage(8hp +3 fort -1 ref), and at the same time makes the eventual payoff of the rogue class (crippling strike) 4 levels further away. It's just not worth it. The int to damage is basically the sole redeeming feature of the class - and some int-focused rogues might go for it based on that - but not if the game is expected to go to level 10 or better. It's a short term gain for a long term loss. A massive long term loss. And most int-focused rogues are doing it for the skill points.. taking that 4 level hit on skills would be rather painful for them.