LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!

[Coidzor]

I think everybody forgot? I don't think it's even been mentioned in a bunch of threads.

I think it had a couple of preliminary sessions and then petered out? :smallconfused:

[Heliomance]

I shudder to think of what you must be planning to do to the cameraman in this picture. :smalleek:

What do you mean?


I do believe Helio is a "he"* right now, but you're right - the zombie/reaver is the most worrying thing in that picture!


~Phoenix~

* It's hard for me too, because the first time I encountered Helio, he was a she, so that's the gender that sticks in my mind. Sorry, Helio! I'm trying!

It's fine, really. And if people are going to get it wrong, that's the direction I'd prefer it happens in - being called "she" when I'm feeling male is a bit awkward and weird, being called "he" when I'm feeling female hurts. But mostly, yeah, just check the gender icon. I try to keep it up to date.


It dawns on me that in that picture, Helio presents as both, making it even harder to choose a pronoun.

Muahaha! My work here is done!

Or something like that.

[Asta Kask]

What is your name?

Asta Kask

What is your quest?

To seek the Holy Grail.

What is Helio's gender?

Male? No! Female? No! I don't know! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

[Heliomance]

What is your name?

Asta Kask

What is your quest?

To seek the Holy Grail.

What is Helio's gender?

Male? No! Female? No! I don't know! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

*tries to look annoyed*
*ruins it by smirking*

[Lady Serpentine]

...Why not just say "Variable"? :smalltongue:

[Astrella]

does anyone know this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWRX6ihc_jY#!) perhaps?
I found it good :smallsmile:

I...whoah...that made me tear up for a while. That's a beautiful video, thank you for linking it. :smallsmile:

-----

Uhm, to further the touching videos, there's this Dutch psa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=croo9yJbFX4) I came across a few days ago and it surprised me cause it was an LGBT+ one that actually had trans people in it. (Granted, no transmasculine / non-binary presence but it's something.)

-----

Also added another piece of clothing to my avi. :smalltongue:

[Heliomance]

does anyone know this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWRX6ihc_jY#!) perhaps?
I found it good :smallsmile:

Okay, how the hell is she doing her voice with a male larynx? Every piece of advice I've ever seen says to make your voice breathier to get a more female voice, but her voice isn't breathy at all and it's undeniably female.

*jealous*

[Astrella]

Okay, how the hell is she doing her voice with a male larynx? Every piece of advice I've ever seen says to make your voice breathier to get a more female voice, but her voice isn't breathy at all and it's undeniably female.

*jealous*

Decent voice training I'd assume? She doesn't really sound that different from most of the trans girls in my youth group. But then again, referrals to a logopedician (Uh, speech therapist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_therapy_(trans)) I guess?) are part of the "care package" here.

I still have a link with a ton of information around here somewhere if you're interested.

[Coidzor]

What do you mean?


Maybe it's a squint. Maybe it's an eye twitch. Maybe it's just the way the makeup came out in that corner of the eye. Maybe it's because you've essentially captured the murder face of one of my former friends.

Maybe. Or maybe your true ferociousness showed there for a moment.

I don't know, exactly, but it promises... pain. Possibly other things as well, but most definitely pain.

[SiuiS]

The results of my attempted half-and-half makeup for hallowe'en. It turned out far more subtle than I hoped, sadly. Still, you can see the effect if you cover half my face at a time.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/148136_481363841883909_1347951400_n.jpg






... Wow.


So my family and I went over to my grandparents for a visit. My godchild and niece were there as well; which was neat cause I hadn't seen them in a while. (My aunt/uncle and grandparents live in two houses that share a hallway and garage.) My niece was especially clingy and adorable even this time around. :smalltongue:

At some point my uncle decided to dig up a bunch of old slides. My grandfather used to be a pretty big amateur photographer and has tons of old slides still lying around. So we turned on the projector and started looking at old pictures of my mum's and two uncle's teens. (You might already figured out where this is going...) Now, my mum and I look quite alike. So...I got quite upset seeing those pictures cause my head was getting flooded with pictures of "what could've been" and stuff like that and I had to try hard to hide being upset cause explaining why some old pictures upset me wouldn't have been easy... >.>

I'm sorry hon. I know how much that can suck...

I like your avatar though! Is that Helio's old hat?

*remembers Helios is wearing LEna's old dress*

Oooooooh.



And now for the un-fun stuff. The past couple days I've been feeling the worst dysphoria I've ever felt. There was even a brief (thankfully) moment yesterday when I was seriously considering chopping...certain things...off. Thankfully my senses reassertedd themselves, but I'm really, really unhappy right now :smallfrown: . And I feel like I don't have anyone to talk to about it.

However, apparently there's a really big center for this kind of stuff nearby. I typed in "Gender" in Google, and the fifth recommendation was the Gender Center of Colorado, which is less than half an hour away. I'm going to check it out sometime this week.

And leaving off with some better news: shaved legs feel delicious :smallsmile: !


~Phoenix~

Crikey :smalleek:
I hope you get a lot out of this gender center though~
and yes. Yes they do.


*drags in enormous teapot*

*removes the lid*

*looks around*

What? I haven't seen the Kenderwizard for a while so I thought I'd summon her.

XD


Here's hoping. My therapist actually recommended I visit a while ago, but I never tried to find the time. Now, I'm definitely going to, because my parents are hogging my therapist time!


Man, still? Can you kick them out? Your therapist is YOUR[/i} therapist, if they need help coming to terms with this they should hire their own!



Ah, and here's why :smallsmile: ! I would be all for it. Now that this mysterious arcane power is mine, I would not be opposed to joining such a mystical society.


[I]~Phoenix~

Aye, count me in >_>
When I get time for skype, that is <_<


Okay, how the hell is she doing her voice with a male larynx? Every piece of advice I've ever seen says to make your voice breathier to get a more female voice, but her voice isn't breathy at all and it's undeniably female.

*jealous*

I've seen that a lot in people who aren't, well, english speaking caucasians. I think it is in different inflection from native languages and such. I know the few trasnwomen I've met all sound like I want to, and the ones who have the most naturally feminine tones are either African or hispanic in descent. It's only the WASPish ones who have the standard breathy tones.

Perhaps it is like hair-care? Standard hair care is by straight-haired people, for straight hair. It doesn't really work for curly hair, spreads "common knowlwedge" which is incorrect about curly hair, and if you talk to a stylist about how curly hair needs different treatment than straight hair, they patronize you and do the straight hair stuff anyway. Perhaps all the information we have comes from english speaking caucasian transfolk, and so they aren't aware there is any diference?

Also, is there not some form of surgery which changes the range of the vocal chords to be more in line with your preferred gender? And early enough hormonal treatment can mitigate the change from youth to adult, which is where the differences in male/female vocal tones and phonation tendencies really start to crop up?

Regardless, I would like to compile a list of resources to go over, and compare. Does anyone have any potentially racially charged information? I would like to see advice from transwomen of vastly different genetic ethincities.

[Lix Lorn]

What is your name?

Asta Kask

What is your quest?

To seek the Holy Grail.

What is Helio's gender?

Male? No! Female? No! I don't know! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
Lol xD


Also, is there not some form of surgery which changes the range of the vocal chords to be more in line with your preferred gender? And early enough hormonal treatment can mitigate the change from youth to adult, which is where the differences in male/female vocal tones and phonation tendencies really start to crop up?
There is, but it isn't recommended. It can backfire, and it's not reliable.

[Mystic Muse]

I'd be willing to join a skype group for modding my voice.

[golentan]

Hugs to everyone. :smallsmile:

Life is good. Well... at least often enough to make up for when it sucks.

[Atreyu the Masked LLama]

Hugs to everyone. :smallsmile:

Life is good. Well... at least often enough to make up for when it sucks.

I'd drink to that, but a 6 armed person took all the drinks!

[Mystic Muse]

I'd drink to that, but it's another year and 4 months (Close enough anyway) until I can.

[Randomguy]

On the topic of Troll sexuality, I have no idea what Homestuck is, so I shall just sit back and smile at how funny all the strange terminology sounds. ^_^'

Oh, let me tell you about Homestuck. :smallamused:

Homestuck is a popular webcomic that updates about five times a day on average. When it comes to funny sounding terminology, Homestuck is simply the best there is. Give it a read if you have a spare hour day week month or so.



Heliomance is Shrodinger's gender: His gender is a superposition of male and female until he changes the gender symbol and collapses the wave function by letting us know.
(I hope this joke wasn't in poor taste. Also, I hope I got the quantum terminology and pronouns right).


EDIT: I was skimming SMBC and came across this (http://www.smbc-comics.com/?db=comics&id=2310#comic) mildly relevant comic again, and only just now got the joke.

[Socratov]

[QUOTE=noparlpf;14175072]Is that a real ritual? I like tea. Although I like tea that's super-dark and might scare her off. It scares away most people.



snipQUOTE]

wow, I never scared them away, only elicit remarks like: "That's no tea, that's coffee!" and likewise comments... The trick is to put some lapsang souchon formose in soem tea holding unit, pour water over it, forget that you made tea for at least 15 minutes (be sure to keep the tea warm), remember you had made tea, leave the tea containment unit in the water, and start drinking. Soon it will be darker then Asmodius' soul. :smallamused:

[Lady Serpentine]

So. I have, for some reason, decided to play a character whose gender is listed exclusively as "Presents as androgyne", whose appearance will, obviously, be deliberately ambiguous, and who I'll be referring to exclusively with gender-neutral pronouns in my descriptive text.

While, aesthetically, I like the name Lilium for them, would that be overly gender-specific to work well?

[Serpentine]

I've had two gender-ambiguous characters. One was a machine, literally sexless, referred to as "it". The other, iirc, was a humanoid... Rogue? I just couldn't decide on a sex for them, so I went with "unknown".
Oddly, I leant towards masculine for the former and feminine for the latter, although they were still both ambiguous/androgynous.

[Heliomance]

Specific to which gender?

[Lady Serpentine]

Specific to which gender?

Personally, I was thinking that Lillium would be read as feminine, but honestly, either one, since the point is for them to present as neither.

[Serpentine]

The "Lilli" start is slightly feminine, but I think it's removed enough from any real-world (or at least any common) names that it can go either way.
Most of my favourite names are gender-neutral...

[Lea Plath]

*Glomps Lea*

Hey! I haven't seen you around recently, so... How have you been? Good, I hope? :smallsmile:

Good to see I am still remembered, but not feared. This must change.

ARMS FOR THE ARMS GOD! *Waves a giant axe about*

I'm good though. Life is good.

Also, for people on skype, I've found some nice voice changer programs, I use them sometimes when my gender is feminine.

[Heliomance]

The "Lilli" start is slightly feminine

and the "ium" suffix is traditionally masculine.

And C'nor, if I had to ask which gender you thought it might be too specific to, don't you think you should take that as a hint that it isn't? :P

[Coidzor]

and the "ium" suffix is traditionally masculine.

Though I imagine that it's going to be rather far from the minds of most readers.


While, aesthetically, I like the name Lilium for them, would that be overly gender-specific to work well?

Honestly, I'd be more concerned with them sounding like they're an element or metal. :smallconfused:

[Socratov]

I think one of the most androgynous names woudl be Alex, since it's used for both boys and girls...

[Serpentine]

I think one of the most androgynous names woudl be Alex, since it's used for both boys and girls...So-so. Usually Alex is short for Alexander or Alexandra, both very gendered names. The same goes for Sam(-antha/uel). There's lots of other more intrinsically gender-neutral names: my favourites include Linden, Morgan and Seren, and another is Ashley.

[Socratov]

don't forget about Robin and Artemis (though this is a reference to a certain book series :smallwink:)

[Serpentine]

I certainly wouldn't consider Artemis to be gender-neutral... Robin/Robyn could well be, although I would be concerned about whether the spelling's gendered (it might not be, though, I'm not sure). Similarly with Jessie/Jesse, which has the extra annoyance of it always being assumed that a female Jessie is short for Jessica.

[SiuiS]

So. I have, for some reason, decided to play a character whose gender is listed exclusively as "Presents as androgyne", whose appearance will, obviously, be deliberately ambiguous, and who I'll be referring to exclusively with gender-neutral pronouns in my descriptive text.

While, aesthetically, I like the name Lilium for them, would that be overly gender-specific to work well?

Heeheehee, nice~

I was gonna do something similar in a Mage game until they convinced me to play something else. Gender would have been decided based on how I felt when someone insult caught the character with their pants down.

It works well, as you could be both "Lily" and "Lee".


Though I imagine that it's going to be rather far from the minds of most readers.


Huh? My first thought was, quite literally, "oh hey, the -ium really turns that name on its head, nice!"


I think one of the most androgynous names woudl be Alex, since it's used for both boys and girls...

I prefer Ashleigh or Kelley myself~

[Lea Plath]

Charlie could be gender neutral, I guess?

[Astrella]

Kim is a common gender neutral name around here.

[Serpentine]

Charlie could be gender neutral, I guess?Same as Alex: it's usually short for either Charlotte (or another girl's name I'm forgetting?) or Charles. But, you know, any name can be gender-neutral (cue "Man Called Sue"). I'm just a gender-neutral name purist :smalltongue:

[Absol197]

Same as Alex: it's usually short for either Charlotte (or another girl's name I'm forgetting?) or Charles. But, you know, any name can be gender-neutral (cue "Man Called Sue"). I'm just a gender-neutral name purist :smalltongue:

"Jayne! The man they call Jayne!"


~Phoenix~

[Astrella]

I'm sorry hon. I know how much that can suck...

I like your avatar though! Is that Helio's old hat?

*remembers Helios is wearing LEna's old dress*

Oooooooh.

Yeah, it was mostly just that it took me by surprise.

Glad you like it. :smallsmile:


I've seen that a lot in people who aren't, well, english speaking caucasians. I think it is in different inflection from native languages and such. I know the few trasnwomen I've met all sound like I want to, and the ones who have the most naturally feminine tones are either African or hispanic in descent. It's only the WASPish ones who have the standard breathy tones.

Perhaps it is like hair-care? Standard hair care is by straight-haired people, for straight hair. It doesn't really work for curly hair, spreads "common knowlwedge" which is incorrect about curly hair, and if you talk to a stylist about how curly hair needs different treatment than straight hair, they patronize you and do the straight hair stuff anyway. Perhaps all the information we have comes from english speaking caucasian transfolk, and so they aren't aware there is any diference?

Also, is there not some form of surgery which changes the range of the vocal chords to be more in line with your preferred gender? And early enough hormonal treatment can mitigate the change from youth to adult, which is where the differences in male/female vocal tones and phonation tendencies really start to crop up?

Regardless, I would like to compile a list of resources to go over, and compare. Does anyone have any potentially racially charged information? I would like to see advice from transwomen of vastly different genetic ethincities.

Hmm, it'd probably be mostly related to your native tongue. Friends have told me about certain peculiarities in my pronunciation cause of me being Dutch. It's really hard to completely mask the presence of your native tongue I feel, especially if you still actively speak both. And don't forget that what type of voice training you have access to plays a pretty big part. As I mentioned earlier, speech therapists are a very common thing around here so trans* people get easily referred to them. (and is covered under insurance.)

There is a surgery but it doesn't magically make your voice feminine, it just raises it. And it's very risky and has a decent change of permanently damaging your voice...

I don't have that specific information, but here is a big pile (http://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/125hin/friday_night_voice_thread_33/) of voice related stuff. (Still going to add that ideally you'd see a speech therapist for voice training but that's off course not within everyone's options. Taking care of your voice when doing this is really important though!)

[noparlpf]

Oh, let me tell you about Homestuck. :smallamused:

Homestuck is a popular webcomic that updates about five times a day on average. When it comes to funny sounding terminology, Homestuck is simply the best there is. Give it a read if you have a spare hour day week month or so.

Is that on average over its history? It would be more accurate to say that it updates sporadically, but when it does it updates a lot in a few days.


wow, I never scared them away, only elicit remarks like: "That's no tea, that's coffee!" and likewise comments... The trick is to put some lapsang souchon formose in some tea holding unit, pour water over it, forget that you made tea for at least 15 minutes (be sure to keep the tea warm), remember you had made tea, leave the tea containment unit in the water, and start drinking. Soon it will be darker then Asmodius' soul. :smallamused:

I just drink plain black tea, made with tea bags because they're cheaper. And I leave the tea bags in for a good ten minutes at a full boil, then another ten minutes while it cools a bit.
(Turns out you get more "tea" out of a tea bag the second time you steep it, if you steep it at moderate (like 70°C) temperatures both times. But you get more the first time if you steep it at high temperatures, like boiling.)

[Absol197]

So, continuing on our Skype conversation, I am now officially online! For those who would like to get in touch, my name is the same as my username here. Should you get in contact, let me know who it is!

Also, no promises that I'll be on with any frequency, but I now have the capability, at least.

Also, with my adventure in shaving the other day, I believe I have now discovered what ingrown hairs are :smalleek: . Oh, well. Still worth it :smallbiggrin: !

[Lea Plath]

Also, was playing Kingdom Hearts today and realized the nobody form of Lea could be Alex. This pleases me greatly :3

[gunnar11]

So, continuing on our Skype conversation, I am now officially online! For those who would like to get in touch, my name is the same as my username here. Should you get in contact, let me know who it is!

Also, no promises that I'll be on with any frequency, but I now have the capability, at least.
YAY YAY YAY!
*runs off to skype*


Also, was playing Kingdom Hearts today and realized the nobody form of Lea could be Alex. This pleases me greatly :3
Or Axel? :smallconfused:

[Asta Kask]

Which is a danish form of Absalon. As unlikely as it seems.

[Irish Musician]

and another is Ashley.
I will have to disagree with you there. While I do know both men and women that have the name "Ashley" (Spelled in many different ways) I think the name itself has a definite female assumption that comes with it. Now, should it? Probably not. But it definitely makes my mind go to a woman, rather than a man, when the name is mentioned.

"Jayne! The man they call Jayne!"

~Phoenix~
Love, Love, Love

"The Hero of Canton....the man they call.....ME!!!"

~Matthew~

[Arti3]

Alexis is a nice androgynous name.

[Rawhide]

I will have to disagree with you there. While I do know both men and women that have the name "Ashley" (Spelled in many different ways) I think the name itself has a definite female assumption that comes with it. Now, should it? Probably not. But it definitely makes my mind go to a woman, rather than a man, when the name is mentioned.

I will have to disagree with you there. Same reasons, but I lean to male in the first instance.

[Irish Musician]

I will have to disagree with you there. Same reasons, but I lean to male in the first instance.
That is so interesting to me. People never cease to amaze me. There are literally an infinite experiences we can have in this life, and an infinite combination of those experiences can be spread out among us. And the fact that we can sit and talk about them and, generally, not kill each other is crazy. I mean, animals that grow up opposite of each other tend to sniff, then start fighting.

Humans will forever both amaze and depress me, all at the same time. We are Schrodinger's(SP?) race, to me.

[The Succubus]

Speak for yourself. I'm not overly keen on being put in a box and periodically zapped with radiation. :smallannoyed:

[noparlpf]

Speak for yourself. I'm not overly keen on being put in a box and periodically zapped with radiation. :smallannoyed:

I'm pretty sure Earth is basically a big round box and we're constantly being zapped with radiation.

[Irish Musician]

Speak for yourself. I'm not overly keen on being put in a box and periodically zapped with radiation. :smallannoyed:
Heh, no, I mean in the sense that we both amaze and depress me at the same time. Much like the cat could be thought of as dead and alive at the same time. :smallsmile:

[Rawhide]

That is so interesting to me. People never cease to amaze me. There are literally an infinite experiences we can have in this life, and an infinite combination of those experiences can be spread out among us. And the fact that we can sit and talk about them and, generally, not kill each other is crazy. I mean, animals that grow up opposite of each other tend to sniff, then start fighting.

Humans will forever both amaze and depress me, all at the same time. We are Schrodinger's(SP?) race, to me.

Now that you mention it, I don't much like the way that you smell. Duelling pistols at dawn.

[Irish Musician]

Now that you mention it, I don't much like the way that you smell. Duelling pistols at dawn.
Haha, if you want to.....but I must warn you. I am from Texas and have been shooting a pistol since I was 10......but I am fine with that :smallsmile:

[Saposhiente]

The problem with all these gender-neutral names is that their gender or lack thereof varies by region.

[Mina Kobold]

don't forget about Robin and Artemis (though this is a reference to a certain book series :smallwink:)

I dunno, the latter seems a bit Fowl and the first may make someone Bat an eye. May Actually Not, though. :3

Or, in other words: I read that book series too! Stopped after the Time Paradox, though. I liked Minerva, but apparently nobody else did. ;_;


So, continuing on our Skype conversation, I am now officially online! For those who would like to get in touch, my name is the same as my username here. Should you get in contact, let me know who it is!

Also, no promises that I'll be on with any frequency, but I now have the capability, at least.

Yay! I must add you, my handle is completely different there. ^_^'


Which is a danish form of Absalon. As unlikely as it seems.

... We are weirder than I am. How?! :smalleek:

*Hides from Denmark*

[SiuiS]

So, continuing on our Skype conversation, I am now officially online! For those who would like to get in touch, my name is the same as my username here. Should you get in contact, let me know who it is!

Also, no promises that I'll be on with any frequency, but I now have the capability, at least.

Yay!


Also, with my adventure in shaving the other day, I believe I have now discovered what ingrown hairs are :smalleek: . Oh, well. Still worth it :smallbiggrin: !

oooh, ouch. Well, welcome to the club I suppose...
You've gotta get some nylons now :smallbiggrin:


Which is a danish form of Absalon. As unlikely as it seems.

Oh? What is?


I will have to disagree with you there. While I do know both men and women that have the name "Ashley" (Spelled in many different ways) I think the name itself has a definite female assumption that comes with it. Now, should it? Probably not. But it definitely makes my mind go to a woman, rather than a man, when the name is mentioned.

Depends on how much Irish (or faux-Irish) you grew up with. Both Ashley and Kelly are male names.


Haha, if you want to.....but I must warn you. I am from Texas and have been shooting a pistol since I was 10......but I am fine with that :smallsmile:

Dueling pistols are specially designed not to be all that shootable. Your training may actually hinder you.


The problem with all these gender-neutral names is that their gender or lack thereof varies by region.

"Problem".

[Asta Kask]

Oh? What is?

The name Axel. But Danish and enunciation aren't close friends. The way to speak Danish is to speak Swedish with a mouthful of porridge. :smalltongue:

[Heliomance]

I will have to disagree with you there. While I do know both men and women that have the name "Ashley" (Spelled in many different ways) I think the name itself has a definite female assumption that comes with it. Now, should it? Probably not. But it definitely makes my mind go to a woman, rather than a man, when the name is mentioned.

Love, Love, Love

"The Hero of Canton....the man they call.....ME!!!"

~Matthew~

The only Ashley I've ever known personally was male. OTOH, I only know Kim as short for Kimberley, and it's definitely a female name here.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The only Ashley I've ever known personally was male. OTOH, I only know Kim as short for Kimberley, and it's definitely a female name here.

Kim is occasionally a male name. I have an Uncle Kim and I know one male Kim at work.

[noparlpf]

Around here Ashley is distinctly female, and Kim is distinctly female. Some people know that they can be either in other places, but most kids (read: through high school age at least) around here don't even realise those names can be male.
I actually met my first male Ariel recently.

Edit: Kelly is also distinctly female here.

[Irish Musician]

Depends on how much Irish (or faux-Irish) you grew up with. Both Ashley and Kelly are male names.
That's very true as well. I do tend to think of a guy when I hear Kelly, due to the Irish influence in my life.


Dueling pistols are specially designed not to be all that shootable. Your training may actually hinder you.
Pish, I use my 9-shot .22 Revolver to duel :smalltongue:

[Mina Kobold]

The name Axel. But Danish and enunciation aren't close friends. The way to speak Danish is to speak Swedish with a mouthful of porridge. :smalltongue:

But we barely ever eat porridge, how would we speak on a day-to-day basis without using up all our agricultural supply? Y-you are just making fun of us, aren't you? Meanie! :smallyuk::smalltongue:

On a more serious note, the biggest difference I have noticed is that Danish uses more Es and Ds while Swedish uses more As and Ts. That may just be completely wrong, though, as I am just a silly Kobold who does not understand Swedish. Sorry if I am being stupid. m(_ _)m

To get back on topic, does anyone know how the experiment with gender-neutral pronouns in Sweden is working out? :smallsmile:

[Asta Kask]

But we barely ever eat porridge, how would we speak on a day-to-day basis without using up all our agricultural supply? Y-you are just making fun of us, aren't you? Meanie! :smallyuk::smalltongue:

On a more serious note, the biggest difference I have noticed is that Danish uses more Es and Ds while Swedish uses more As and Ts. That may just be completely wrong, though, as I am just a silly Kobold who does not understand Swedish. Sorry if I am being stupid. m(_ _)m

To get back on topic, does anyone know how the experiment with gender-neutral pronouns in Sweden is working out? :smallsmile:

A lot of Danish forms were extirpated from Swedish during the 16th and 17th century, when our countries were either at war or preparing for war...

The whole thing has sort of died down. I still use it because its very practical. My guess is that it won't take - pronouns are what's called a 'closed class'. It's very difficult to introduce new words in closed classes.

[Lady Serpentine]

@Lea:

Don't take it personally. Spiders just aren't something I'm afraid of. :smalltongue:

@Helio:

Well, yes, possibly. Though the lateness of the hour does count somewhat as a mitigating circumstance, since it led me to believe that was indicative of a confusion as to the nature of the character, rather than a comment on the ambiguity of the name.

@Coidzor:

That was not something I'd thought of, honestly... I can see it now that you've pointed it out, but the similarity to element/metal names never crossed my mind.

Though I'm not entirely sure why that would be a problem? :smallconfused:

@SiuiS:

Thanks! They're a little less undefined than that, since I do know what they're going to be if someone finds out, but that's the general idea, yeah.

And considering the overwhelming response has been that Lilium is gender-neutral, I suspect that I was simply being silly due to my first having heard that as related to a specific character.

@Keveak:

You weren't the only one who was fond of Minerva... :smallfrown:

[Coidzor]

@Coidzor:

That was not something I'd thought of, honestly... I can see it now that you've pointed it out, but the similarity to element/metal names never crossed my mind.

Though I'm not entirely sure why that would be a problem? :smallconfused:


When it comes to names I have a tendency to run over potential weaknesses to mockery and derision and punning. Though mostly in this case I think the connection causes me personally to have it feel... artificial rather than a true name.


I will have to disagree with you there. While I do know both men and women that have the name "Ashley" (Spelled in many different ways) I think the name itself has a definite female assumption that comes with it. Now, should it? Probably not. But it definitely makes my mind go to a woman, rather than a man, when the name is mentioned.

What's should about it? :smallconfused:


Similarly with Jessie/Jesse, which has the extra annoyance of it always being assumed that a female Jessie is short for Jessica.

Never really liked diminutives as given names, on the whole, I must admit, because such mix-ups are practically being invited upon the poor soul's head.


Huh? My first thought was, quite literally, "oh hey, the -ium really turns that name on its head, nice!"

You're decidedly not "most readers" though. About half of the thread, give or take, has a keen interest in such matters, if I've a guess.


Same as Alex: it's usually short for either Charlotte (or another girl's name I'm forgetting?) or Charles. But, you know, any name can be gender-neutral (cue "Man Called Sue"). I'm just a gender-neutral name purist :smalltongue:

It's a Boy Named Sue! And the point is that it's not gender-neutral even though he's the meanest, orneriest cuss of a son-of-a-gun around. :smalltongue:

[Lix Lorn]

"Jayne! The man they call Jayne!"


~Phoenix~
Jayne is a girl's name.

[Irish Musician]

Jayne is a girl's name.
She starts on that 'girl's name' thing, I'm gonna show her good an' all I got man parts.

:smallwink:

[golentan]

She starts on that 'girl's name' thing, I'm gonna show her good an' all I got man parts.

:smallwink:

I'm trying to think of a way for you to be cruder. It's just... not coming. :smallbiggrin:

[Lix Lorn]

I love you both so much right now. xD

[SiuiS]

You're decidedly not "most readers" though. About half of the thread, give or take, has a keen interest in such matters, if I've a guess.


I don't know. this whole caring about gender thing is relatively new to me, whereas my emotional response to words and innate philology affection are more ingrained. I think that –ium happens to be a more masculine suffix, an that despite L being a softer seeming consonant it is only ever really feminine when paired with a feminine suffix. It's not something I really thought about or have trained myself for, so unless you're talking about level of intelligence in general, I still register as a 'normal person'. That I am immediately clicking names as under one gender or another is proof.



It's a Boy Named Sue! And the point is that it's not gender-neutral even though he's the meanest, orneriest cuss of a son-of-a-gun around. :smalltongue:

Aye, that's not the best example XD

[Serpentine]

...Yes, I am aware of what Boy Named Sue is about guys, thanks :smallconfused:
I will have to disagree with you there. While I do know both men and women that have the name "Ashley" (Spelled in many different ways) I think the name itself has a definite female assumption that comes with it. Now, should it? Probably not. But it definitely makes my mind go to a woman, rather than a man, when the name I've men both boys and girls called Ashley, same spelling. It's neither male nor female to me, although some spellings may be.

Never really liked diminutives as given names, on the whole, I must admit, because such mix-ups are practically being invited upon the poor soul's head.It's not a diminutive. It's a whole, independent name, and a fairly old one at that. Jessica is just more common :smallannoyed:

[Irish Musician]

Also, can I just say that I LOVE to be able to come here and escape all the crap going on in my country right now? And the fact that there are rules saying no political crap.......I LOVE YOU GUYS SO MUCH!!!!

Also, *hugs* for anyone that needs/wants them (And I give pretty damn good ones too :smallwink:)

~Matthew~

[Coidzor]

...Yes, I am aware of what Boy Named Sue is about guys, thanks :smallconfused:

It's not a diminutive. It's a whole, independent name, and a fairly old one at that. Jessica is just more common :smallannoyed:

Then why'd you get the name wrong? :smalltongue:

I've only run into it in the form where it's a diminutive or a diminutive-come-proper name in both real-life usage and when I've trawled through name etymology while messing with young women.

[Serpentine]

Well, now you know. It's also its own name.

[Socratov]

I dunno, the latter seems a bit Fowl and the first may make someone Bat an eye. May Actually Not, though. :3

Or, in other words: I read that book series too! Stopped after the Time Paradox, though. I liked Minerva, but apparently nobody else did. ;_;



I loved that series more then Potter. It was slightly more intelligently written and had a lot more dark humor. Also, Holly Short >.<

[noparlpf]

I will admit to never having read that series. And that I look on the Harry Potter series as a cute series of children's books.

[Socratov]

well, artemis fowl matures in teh same way, though starts a little later dealing with good and evil in a very different way. and uses a bit more intelligence instead of "let's just all rush forward and see what happens". And it is quite enjoyable...

[The Succubus]

Perhaps Mynaxe can enlighten us as to whether it makes a difference if said boyfriend makes a habit of nibbling on your neck.

[Astrella]

I'm not sure if anyone here heard about Ria Cooper, but Natalie wrote a quite thoughtful article about them. (http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/11/06/on-detransition/)

[Astrella]

Edit: Regarding Ria Cooper - this is news because it plays into people's preconception. It's an isolated case and you can't draw any long-term conclusions from it. We need statistics - how common is this? We can define a 'reversion' rate - how many people who have undergone transition treatment (as far as they want to go, unless it's technically impossible, then as far as is possible) and desire to have the treatment reversed? 1-year post-transition? 2-years? 5-years? I'm willing to bet the number is rather low. But I'm willing to be proven wrong.

The number is really low. Transitioning actually has a higher success rate than most 'treatments'. And then it's mostly about social dissatisfaction (loss of family and friends etc...). Which if I remember correctly play a big part in Ria's decision as well. But that doesn't really matter in the end; we should respect their choice regardless of their motivation. It's just a bit unfortunate that everyone jumps on them with an agenda of sorts; even if the motivation is sometime just trying to get people to not deny you help. It's as Natalie said though; people don't go on a massive outrage against cancer treatment because it doesn't always work.

[Asta Kask]

What I'd like to see is if age has an effect on reversion rate. I mean, the argument here is that we should not perform transitional treatment on people who aren't off-age. But we all know that it's not like people suddenly become mature and in-control of their life when the clock strikes twelve on their 18th birthday. It's a gradual process. My prediction is that any age-related effect would be weak, perhaps even going in the other direction. As I understand it, hormones and other treatment have less effect the older you are. So dissatisfaction with the end result would be larger. But I'm speculating freely here.

Now, Ria Cooper wants the surgery reversed. Does ze want testosterone treatment as well? Name change? Live like (most) cis-men? It's a fascinating case but as an argument against transition treatment it is very weak.

[gunnar11]

Wow, gone for 35 hours, and this many posts already!


Alexis is a nice androgynous name.
Alexis? I never heard of a boy named Alexis...
I like:
Sam, Kim, Ashley, Stef, Robin, Pascal, Bo, Sanne, Anne, Rene.


Also, can I just say that I LOVE to be able to come here and escape all the crap going on in my country right now? And the fact that there are rules saying no political crap.......I LOVE YOU GUYS SO MUCH!!!!

Also, *hugs* for anyone that needs/wants them (And I give pretty damn good ones too :smallwink:)

~Matthew~
We (or at least I) love you too, Matt!
*Hugs*

Did you know by the way that the name that I've always admired the most, and (now still) want to name my son, is your name? Matthew, I love the name. (Or Matthieu if I want to go french)


It was slightly more intelligently written and had a lot more dark humor. Also, Holly Short >.<
I love the Artemis Fowl series.
The last books are kind of dissappointing, though.
Also: I don't like Holly, I like Minerva better.


On my 35-hour-absence:
There was a night-at-highschool event. We stayed the night in our highschool's building to watch the american elections (it's gmt+1 here), and I've been awake for 35 hours now. I've passed my sleep-threshold, and am not tired at all right now.
We played colonists of catan, texas hold em, ate hotdogs and popcorn and drank cola and fanta. It couldn't be more American.
Also: We had our little unofficial voting ourselves. Obama won with 37 votes, Romney had 2 votes, and I (nominated by myself) had 16 >.<

On the not-love-but-like-it life: I asked a guy I had a fancy on from my class if he was gay. He answered by kissing me, and then saying that he was sorry but that he wasn't gay.

Now I'm confused :smallconfused:

[Lady Serpentine]

On the not-love-but-like-it life: I asked a guy I had a fancy on from my class if he was gay. He answered by kissing me, and then saying that he was sorry but that he wasn't gay.

Now I'm confused :smallconfused:

...Maybe he's bi? o.O


Like Phee's game of Wolves.....love reading it because it is different........not to mention has some WONDERFUL writers there :smallwink:
~Matthew~

I lost track of that in recruitment... Might I have a link? :smallsmile:

[Astrella]

I lost track of that in recruitment... Might I have a link? :smallsmile:

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254856) you are~

[Lady Serpentine]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254856) you are~

Thank you much.

(I still think that W:tF is a rather... unfortunate... acronym for that system.)

[Absol197]

Thank you much.

(I still think that W:tF is a rather... unfortunate... acronym for that system.)

I agree, but what can you do?

Also, I should note that the link to the IC thread is at the bottom of the OP. And, if you like what we've got so far, I'd recommend checking out the link under the heading For Werewolf Newbies. It's a similar campaign log that I've already hooked at least two of my players on :smallamused: .


~Phoenix~

[Lady Serpentine]

I agree, but what can you do?

Also, I should note that the link to the IC thread is at the bottom of the OP. And, if you like what we've got so far, I'd recommend checking out the link under the heading For Werewolf Newbies. It's a similar campaign log that I've already hooked at least two of my players on :smallamused: .


~Phoenix~

Figure out another? (Not that that's really practical at all, and it has even more possibility for confusion. :smalltongue:)

And I shall have to look at it, then. (Though having read Jericho's introduction, I blame you for any nightmares. ;P)

[Mono Vertigo]

On Ria Cooper: only just read a few paragraphs in Natalie Reed's blog (so if she wrote something in later paragraphs clarifying the first ones and I appear to have missed it, feel free to tap me upside the head with a rolled-up newspaper). Apparently, the biggest factor is social. Which saddens me immensely, and even more so that these factors were apparently not clarified in the media. Would not occur to me to mock or criticize that poor girl (assuming here she's merely trying to present as male again, and does not actually consider herself male).
And even if the main factors were not social, but personal... come on, that is still nobody's fault but that of those who did not respect her. That's just as unfortunate. Nobody criticizes cancer patients for undergoing treatment that end up failing instead of sparing everyone extended suffering. If someone thinks at the time transition is the solution, and it turns out afterward it was not the fix they expected, there's no point in disrespecting them further. :smallfrown:



God, that thread has gotten dark.
Huh...
Hey, guys! Gay marriage + adoption looks like it's going to be a reality very soon in France! In a couple states in the USA, too! Plus additional stuff I'm not going to mention here because it's too political for that but you may already know what I'm talking about!
Lookit! Good news!

[noparlpf]

What I'd like to see is if age has an effect on reversion rate. I mean, the argument here is that we should not perform transitional treatment on people who aren't off-age. But we all know that it's not like people suddenly become mature and in-control of their life when the clock strikes twelve on their 18th birthday. It's a gradual process. My prediction is that any age-related effect would be weak, perhaps even going in the other direction. As I understand it, hormones and other treatment have less effect the older you are. So dissatisfaction with the end result would be larger. But I'm speculating freely here.

Now, Ria Cooper wants the surgery reversed. Does ze want testosterone treatment as well? Name change? Live like (most) cis-men? It's a fascinating case but as an argument against transition treatment it is very weak.

I thought it said they hadn't undergone surgery yet, just HRT? Granted I only skimmed it because ahhh exam in an hour.

[Lea Plath]

So, according to the week, in a section called spirit of the age, they are doing away with Mr, Miss, Mrs and any variations on that on some council forms in the UK, in support of TG/genderqueer people.

So, yay TG/Genderqueer support, but part of me is thinking that is is kinda silly. In my head, I'm imagining it can cause more problems. An example would be some of the govt systems have Mr/Mrs/Miss/whatever on them, and you need to input that information, so there will need to be a new program written for these new forms and such. And I know what a problem this is @.@ I've got 2 parents who work for the NHS, one in the Connecting for Health Project and he knows what their IT systems are like.

Also, recently I've been leaning a lot more male in my genderfluidity. I think I get what Heliomance means about girlfriends.

Still trying to lose the weight though and become more andro. I've found some nice bits of clothing I'm planning to buy that should help when I've lost the weight. Cowl neck sweaters are neat :3

[Asta Kask]

I thought it said they hadn't undergone surgery yet, just HRT? Granted I only skimmed it because ahhh exam in an hour.

I also just skimmed it. I don't think falloplasty will be an easy thing, btw.

[Absol197]

I agree!

So, it's therapist day once again. In good news, because my mom was exhausted by helping with an election effort, she won't be crashing my time this week. Which is nice, because there are things I want to talk about alone :smalltongue: .


~Phoenix~

[Irish Musician]

So, it's therapist day once again. In good news, because my mom was exhausted by helping with an election effort, she won't be crashing my time this week. Which is nice, because there are things I want to talk about alone :smalltongue: .


~Phoenix~

Aw, man! That is awesome Phee! It is always nice to have someone NOT breathing down your neck when you need to let things out. Congrats! :smallbiggrin:

~Matthew~

[The Succubus]

Let us know how the session turns out. :smallsmile:

That is, if *we're* allowed to poke collective noses in. :smalltongue:

[Absol197]

Let us know how the session turns out. :smallsmile:

That is, if *we're* allowed to poke collective noses in. :smalltongue:

You guys are, yes :smallsmile: . But that's partially because I can still censor what info you guys get.


~Phoenix~

[Arachu]

Next Halloween, I've got my costume sorted. A cloak that I've sewn some black gauze over and put on glow in the dark spots for eyes and a crescent moon for a mouth. Should be fun

X3


Anyway, I'm starting to lose some weight, half a stone already, and I'm trying to get my features more...andro. That means sorting out the eyebrow of evil.

*Hugs~* Good luck~! ^_^


Hugs to everyone. :smallsmile:

Life is good. Well... at least often enough to make up for when it sucks.

:smallsmile: *Hugs~*


~Bianca

[Lentrax]

That is awesome, Phee!

Hope you can get some things sorted out while Mom is out.

*hugs for the road*

[Rawhide]

Please don't feed the trolls.

[Randomguy]

I'm a bit late for this, but what about "Ash" as a gender-neutral name?

[Lady Serpentine]

I'm a bit late for this, but what about "Ash" as a gender-neutral name?

"Ember" works too.

[bluewind95]

I personally use sites like babynames.com to pick character names. You can even search by boy names, girl names, or neutral names. It's pretty cool.

[noparlpf]

I personally use sites like babynames.com to pick character names. You can even search by boy names, girl names, or neutral names. It's pretty cool.

Ditto. I usually search by meanings, then find things that look neat, then mix them up to be original and unique and also a hipster and probably a terrible parent to said characters.

[bluewind95]

Ditto. I usually search by meanings, then find things that look neat, then mix them up to be original and unique and also a hipster and probably a terrible parent to said characters.

Me too! I shouldn't be allowed to name people most of the time! :smallbiggrin:

[noparlpf]

Me too! I shouldn't be allowed to name people most of the time! :smallbiggrin:

We should each come up with a name, then make a portmanteau of the two, and then name an infant it.

[the_druid_droid]

Hi folks! I've been lurking the thread for a while now and thought I should poke my head in to say a proper hello.

[Irish Musician]

Please don't feed the trolls.
But they look so hungry and pitiful :smalltongue:

Hi folks! I've been lurking the thread for a while now and thought I should poke my head in to say a proper hello.
Well, let me give you a proper hello as well.............
HELLO DRUID!!!!!!

~Matthew~

[Kindablue]

Hello stranger!

[Lentrax]

Hi folks! I've been lurking the thread for a while now and thought I should poke my head in to say a proper hello.

Welcome! Have fun!


But they look so hungry and pitiful :smalltongue:


Yeah, until they aren't hungry anymore. Then they get big and angry.

[turkishproverb]

Hi folks! I've been lurking the thread for a while now and thought I should poke my head in to say a proper hello.

Hi! :smallwink:

[Socratov]

Welcome Druid,

have fun while you're here. If you ahve any questions please feel free to ask them. Oh, the cookies are on the left, glomps on the right. Have a nice stay in his thread :smalltongue:

[SiuiS]

Hi folks! I've been lurking the thread for a while now and thought I should poke my head in to say a proper hello.

Eep!



Yeah, until they aren't hungry anymore. Then they get big and angry.

there are non-hungry trolls? Those exist?

[Lentrax]

there are non-hungry trolls? Those exist?

Well, no. When they get bigger and angrier they just get hungrier. A poor choice of words on my part...

I should have said: If you feed a troll, he gets bigger. Etc.

[Serpentine]

Me too! I shouldn't be allowed to name people most of the time! :smallbiggrin:Nuh uh! I've made GREAT character names that way! Like Kariana Wynda, or Alwynn Gerwinaiko (which more or less means "loving lovelove").

[Mina Kobold]

On Ria Cooper: only just read a few paragraphs in Natalie Reed's blog (so if she wrote something in later paragraphs clarifying the first ones and I appear to have missed it, feel free to tap me upside the head with a rolled-up newspaper). Apparently, the biggest factor is social. Which saddens me immensely, and even more so that these factors were apparently not clarified in the media. Would not occur to me to mock or criticize that poor girl (assuming here she's merely trying to present as male again, and does not actually consider herself male).
And even if the main factors were not social, but personal... come on, that is still nobody's fault but that of those who did not respect her. That's just as unfortunate. Nobody criticizes cancer patients for undergoing treatment that end up failing instead of sparing everyone extended suffering. If someone thinks at the time transition is the solution, and it turns out afterward it was not the fix they expected, there's no point in disrespecting them further. :smallfrown:



God, that thread has gotten dark.
Huh...
Hey, guys! Gay marriage + adoption looks like it's going to be a reality very soon in France! In a couple states in the USA, too! Plus additional stuff I'm not going to mention here because it's too political for that but you may already know what I'm talking about!
Lookit! Good news!

I have yet to read much about the case, but I completely agree with your take on the logic, Musashi. It really makes little sense that a margin of error is used as a reason to ban a surgery, when much more risky ones are fully endorsed. u_u


Yay for France! ^_^

While we were terribly behind on marriage itself (only legalising it this year) Denmark apparently have adoption as legal for any gender combination. Yays! :3


I agree!

So, it's therapist day once again. In good news, because my mom was exhausted by helping with an election effort, she won't be crashing my time this week. Which is nice, because there are things I want to talk about alone :smalltongue: .


~Phoenix~

*Hugs*

Those are great news! Do not worry, we will make sure nobody barges in.
>_>
<_<

*Hides audiobug on Phee*


I personally use sites like babynames.com to pick character names. You can even search by boy names, girl names, or neutral names. It's pretty cool.

I do that too, except I primarily use BehindTheName.com. It has etymologies and everything. ^_^

I tend to stick to one particular area of origin, though. But that may be because it would be a bit weird for a modern French person to have ancient Greek names...

Or would it? *w*

[KenderWizard]

Oh hi, strangers! I moved into my new apartment and in the resulting chaos, I haven't been on GitP in daaaays. Also this thread moves ridiculously fast, so I didn't read everything, since when I left we were on, like, page 4.

In my opinion, all names should be gender-neutral. Bring on the revolution!



Depends on how much Irish (or faux-Irish) you grew up with. Both Ashley and Kelly are male names.


That's very true as well. I do tend to think of a guy when I hear Kelly, due to the Irish influence in my life.


The Irish-American stuff continues to fascinate me. I've never met a single person called either Ashley or Kelly. I've heard the name "Ashley" (mainly as an American girl's name, and as Castle's daughter's boyfriend who he initially assumes is a platonic female friend in Castle, an American TV show). Here, Kelly is a fairly common surname, but not a given name.

[The Succubus]

Oh funky! How is your new place? =D I think we had a pot of tea on the go for you a couple of pages back. It might be cold by now though.

[noparlpf]

Oh funky! How is your new place? =D I think we had a pot of tea on the go for you a couple of pages back. It might be cold by now though.

Cold tea is good too. Well, depending on the tea. Cold tea that you forgot on your desk with the bag still in last night is not so good. Hopefully it's not that sort of tea.

[golentan]

Cold tea is good too. Well, depending on the tea. Cold tea that you forgot on your desk with the bag still in last night is not so good. Hopefully it's not that sort of tea.

Maybe we could make it into Thai Iced Tea. It requires a crazy level of concentration to do right...

[noparlpf]

Maybe we could make it into Thai Iced Tea. It requires a crazy level of concentration to do right...

I read that "chai" and reflexively said "Ick" because last time I made chai tea I let it steep too long and that was weird.
Thai iced tea actually sounds good. I think I've accidentally made that before, because once or twice my tea forgotten on the desk overnight actually came out well.

[KenderWizard]

Oh funky! How is your new place? =D I think we had a pot of tea on the go for you a couple of pages back. It might be cold by now though.

Hey! :smallsmile: My new place is small, but it's good. I'm now living with just my partner, so yay!

Cold tea is bad, but that's okay, I'll make a new pot. Iced tea is something I just cannot understand. Tea is a warming and possibly chatting exercise. I suppose we just don't have much call for cooling drinks!

[Lentrax]

Hey! :smallsmile: My new place is small, but it's good. I'm now living with just my partner, so yay!

Cold tea is bad, but that's okay, I'll make a new pot. Iced tea is something I just cannot understand. Tea is a warming and possibly chatting exercise. I suppose we just don't have much call for cooling drinks!

I don't know, a soft drink every once in a while is fine too. So long as you don't have too many, anyways.

[noparlpf]

Hey! :smallsmile: My new place is small, but it's good. I'm now living with just my partner, so yay!

Cold tea is bad, but that's okay, I'll make a new pot. Iced tea is something I just cannot understand. Tea is a warming and possibly chatting exercise. I suppose we just don't have much call for cooling drinks!

Sounds nice. I can't wait to get my own place, but that'll be a few years yet. (Though I am planning to move off-campus somewhere, I'll probably end up renting a room in a house with other people in it.)
I like some forms of iced tea. Depends on how it's made. I also like ice cream best in the winter, but mostly because it's cheaper then.

[Asta Kask]

Hey! :smallsmile: My new place is small, but it's good. I'm now living with just my partner, so yay!

That leaves room for all kinds of... interesting activities. :smalltongue:


Cold tea is bad, but that's okay, I'll make a new pot. Iced tea is something I just cannot understand. Tea is a warming and possibly chatting exercise. I suppose we just don't have much call for cooling drinks!

Yes, well, you live in Ireland. I've been to southern France in the summer and believe me, cooling drinks are essential.

Re Ria Cooper: As with all treatments, you have to weigh the pros and cons. You can tolerate side effects in a cancer treatment that you can't in a cure for the common cold. Given the extremely serious nature of gender dysphoria I think we can go pretty far when it comes to side effects. But this is something that should be handled by the doctor and the patient (and psychologist, etc.)

[Lentrax]

I also like ice cream best in the winter, but mostly because it's cheaper then.

And I like ice cream in winter because it draws a lot of weird looks from people. Cheaper helps too, I suppose... :smalltongue:

[bluewind95]

Please don't feed the trolls.

But some of them are so adorable (http://carlalax.deviantart.com/art/Karkat-grub-283332259)!

Re: Ria Cooper.

Isn't it true that not all trans people really need to transition (at least not entirely)? I daresay perhaps her social needs are greater than her need to transition. Especially with the treatment she's getting from her family. That's just horrible.

Update on bigoted friend from before. I didn't give up and fled from him like the plague. I tried to talk some sense into him. In the end friendship was of bigger importance than bigotry. He claims not to hate trans people anymore, though he's still kind of uncomfortable about the subject. Still a step in the right direction, I think.

[Astrella]

Hi again, Kender!


But some of them are so adorable (http://carlalax.deviantart.com/art/Karkat-grub-283332259)!

Re: Ria Cooper.

Isn't it true that not all trans people really need to transition (at least not entirely)? I daresay perhaps her social needs are greater than her need to transition. Especially with the treatment she's getting from her family. That's just horrible.

Update on bigoted friend from before. I didn't give up and fled from him like the plague. I tried to talk some sense into him. In the end friendship was of bigger importance than bigotry. He claims not to hate trans people anymore, though he's still kind of uncomfortable about the subject. Still a step in the right direction, I think.

Well, I usually use 'transition' as a short for "whatever person X to feel comfortable with themselves gender-wise".

Glad that your friend is coming around. :smallsmile:

-----

On the terms male bodied / female bodied. (http://homosnacktualmafiaqilf.tumblr.com/post/31292262677/tw-examples-of-misgendering-cissexism-and)

[Lentrax]

Seconding the friend situation.

Glad to see comfort levels changing from bigotry to discomfort. Its a step, right?

Maybe we should start a twelve step program, like for quiting smoking.

Only ours is to quit being zarking idiots to other people and let them be. Though that seems a bit long.

Maybe just eliminating bigotry?

[Coidzor]

On the terms male bodied / female bodied. (http://homosnacktualmafiaqilf.tumblr.com/post/31292262677/tw-examples-of-misgendering-cissexism-and)

Well, they have some point. And then they get into the same crock of malarkey as decrees that the use of their implies ownership as of a chattel in all cases without exception. :smallsigh:

[Astrella]

Well, they have some point. And then they get into the same crock of malarkey as decrees that the use of their implies ownership as of a chattel in all cases without exception. :smallsigh:

Come again...?

[noparlpf]

And I like ice cream in winter because it draws a lot of weird looks from people. Cheaper helps too, I suppose... :smalltongue:

Seriously, the kind I buy is about half as expensive in January as in September.


On the terms male bodied / female bodied. (http://homosnacktualmafiaqilf.tumblr.com/post/31292262677/tw-examples-of-misgendering-cissexism-and)

:\
I don't feel completely comfortable arguing because I'm a Western cissexual white man and obviously if I disagree I'm just oppressing everyone.
But, this is one of my biggest terminology pet peeves since I've started reading and discussing trans issues, and it makes it a lot harder to interpret a discussion (especially for the layman you're trying to educate in an explanation of trans issues). Look, I'm sorry if you don't like it, but at least from a medical perspective, we need some way to distinguish easily.
Also, the argument itself is kind of self-defeating. There is a real neurological issue here, whose symptoms are defined as mental gender not matching physical sex. To request medical treatment for this condition is to acknowledge that gender and body don't match. I think you can see where I'm going here. You can't say that a female-bodied woman is transsexual, which is inherently contradictory, just because you've argued that "female-bodied" doesn't mean anything.
(Also I disagree with the cited definition of "female-bodied" that we're trying to contest; I think it's way too specific, as it doesn't even cover many cissexual women. Maybe it's like, part of the Platonic ideal of a female body or something.)
To me, outside of the doctor's office (including therapists and psychiatrists I guess 'cause they're important), a transwoman is just a woman and that's all there is to it (likewise for transmen but this post was talking more about transwomen so I was thinking more about transwomen after reading it). I do realise that the source of frustration for the people who argue this is likely in the social sphere and not so much in the doctor's office, and in that context, I agree that it's a harmful and largely meaningless distinction.
As usual hopefully that says what I meant it to say but as usual I'm afraid it might not.

[Coidzor]

Come again...?

The argument with regards to the words male and female themselves. Positively reeks of that other bit of malarkey as if the same kind of thinking spawned both of them.

[Astrella]

Seriously, the kind I buy is about half as expensive in January as in September.



:\
I don't feel completely comfortable arguing because I'm a Western cissexual white man and obviously if I disagree I'm just oppressing everyone.
But, this is one of my biggest terminology pet peeves since I've started reading and discussing trans issues, and it makes it a lot harder to interpret a discussion (especially for the layman you're trying to educate in an explanation of trans issues). Look, I'm sorry if you don't like it, but at least from a medical perspective, we need some way to distinguish easily.
Also, the argument itself is kind of self-defeating. There is a real neurological issue here, whose symptoms are defined as mental gender not matching physical sex. To request medical treatment for this condition is to acknowledge that gender and body don't match. I think you can see where I'm going here. You can't say that a female-bodied woman is transsexual, which is inherently contradictory, just because you've argued that "female-bodied" doesn't mean anything.
(Also I disagree with the cited definition of "female-bodied" that we're trying to contest; I think it's way too specific, as it doesn't even cover many cissexual women. Maybe it's like, part of the Platonic ideal of a female body or something.)
To me, outside of the doctor's office (including therapists and psychiatrists I guess 'cause they're important), a transwoman is just a woman and that's all there is to it (likewise for transmen but this post was talking more about transwomen so I was thinking more about transwomen after reading it). I do realise that the source of frustration for the people who argue this is likely in the social sphere and not so much in the doctor's office, and in that context, I agree that it's a harmful and largely meaningless distinction.
As usual hopefully that says what I meant it to say but as usual I'm afraid it might not.

The link is not arguing against the labelling itself, but more the often cissexist way it's applied in; often putting assigned sex / gender at birth above the current situation of the person, which is very risky as well.

(Also, correct me if I'm wrong but don't medical records just go by your legal sex anyway?)

[noparlpf]

The link is not arguing against the labeling itself, but more the often cissexist way it's applied in; often putting assigned sex / gender at birth above the current situation of the person, which is very risky as well.

(Also, correct me if I'm wrong but don't medical records just go by your legal sex anyway?)

And I tried to point out that I realise that, but that mostly came out in the last line or two. (Probably because I'm bad at remembering that most humans have feelings and social interactions.)

Edit: No idea, I don't know what my medical records look like and I'm cis anyway. But from what I understand, getting your sex changed on legal forms is hard, and anyway having that show up on your medical records is just as useless as having your physical birth-sex show up on them. It's better to say "trans XtX" so a new doctor can have a good idea of what's what from the first glance; then later on it can specify what degrees of transition have happened.

[KenderWizard]

That leaves room for all kinds of... interesting activities. :smalltongue:


:smalltongue:



Yes, well, you live in Ireland. I've been to southern France in the summer and believe me, cooling drinks are essential.

Oh _hell_ yeah, I've been all over, including southern France in the summer at least a dozen times, and including Virginia in the summer these last few years, and I am 100% on board with cooling drinks, especially American lemonade and slushies, and sweet beautiful ice, and crisp water with a hint of lemon juice, and ... many others. But I grew up using tea as a warming device (and a catch-all social nicety) and never really came across iced tea until I was into my teens (I'd heard of it, but thought it was a cutesy name for some drink, not actual tea that's cold!) and the thought just makes me shudder. And yes, I have tried it, before anyone gets smart with me! :smalltongue:



I like some forms of iced tea. Depends on how it's made. I also like ice cream best in the winter, but mostly because it's cheaper then.

I like icecream in the winter because I don't like when it melts and it doesn't melt so quickly when it's cold! :smallbiggrin:


Hi again, Kender!


Hi! :smallsmile:


On the terms male bodied / female bodied. (http://homosnacktualmafiaqilf.tumblr.com/post/31292262677/tw-examples-of-misgendering-cissexism-and)

I can see where this person is coming from, but I also think the words are useful sometimes, especially when you add in genderqueer and other identities. I agree that we should be more aware that "Female" and "Male" aren't perfect little boxes and not everyone's body falls perfectly neatly into one or the other, that it's more like they're clusters of likely traits, but they're still useful.

[Astrella]

And I tried to point out that I realise that, but that mostly came out in the last line or two. (Probably because I'm bad at remembering that most humans have feelings and social interactions.)

Edit: No idea, I don't know what my medical records look like and I'm cis anyway. But from what I understand, getting your sex changed on legal forms is hard, and anyway having that show up on your medical records is just as useless as having your physical birth-sex show up on them. It's better to say "trans XtX" so a new doctor can have a good idea of what's what from the first glance; then later on it can specify what degrees of transition have happened.

Yeah, I know, around here it requires being sterile so some form of bottom surgery. I'm thinking more of situations where people don't have access to your expanded medical information (ER etc...).


I can see where this person is coming from, but I also think the words are useful sometimes, especially when you add in genderqueer and other identities. I agree that we should be more aware that "Female" and "Male" aren't perfect little boxes and not everyone's body falls perfectly neatly into one or the other, that it's more like they're clusters of likely traits, but they're still useful.

Hm hm, there is a need for the classification, it's just important that we're critical towards it and don't take it as a given.

[noparlpf]

Yeah, I know, around here it requires being sterile so some form of bottom surgery. I'm thinking more of situations where people don't have access to your expanded medical information (ER etc...).

I dunno, can't they just scan the barcode on your neck? But yeah, I can see situations like the ER being an issue. I can imagine several people have run into confusion at the ER due to this sort of thing.

[Astrella]

I dunno, can't they just scan the barcode on your neck? But yeah, I can see situations like the ER being an issue. I can imagine several people have run into confusion at the ER due to this sort of thing.

I don't think humans have those. :smalltongue:

And yeah, it's important to educate people on stuff like this cause it has lead to deaths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyra_Hunter) in the past.

[Lady Serpentine]

The link is not arguing against the labelling itself, but more the often cissexist way it's applied in; often putting assigned sex / gender at birth above the current situation of the person, which is very risky as well.


The actual thing they're against - defining a trans* person as [opposite gender]bodied - is a perfectly logical thing to be against.

The way they go about it is terrible, because they argue against the terms themselves, and ignore the fact words having multiple meanings does not mean that all of them apply at once. Does someone being on a high cliff mean that the geological feature is under the influence of drugs at the same time that it overlooks a lower area? No. The same logic applies here.

They also seem to be ignoring the fact that gender is not equivalent to sex, which is problematic in a lot of ways, both for those who are trying to figure out what someone being trans* means - "But you just said it was a disconnect between sex and gender? Gah! You people are crazy!" - and for trans* people.

Admittedly, I could be misreading the section in question -



Unless she has explicity stated that she was a boy and her body was then male, it is misgendering to refer to her body as male at any point in time.

- but it certainly seems to be saying that to refer only to someone's body before they began transitioning (going by Lena's definition above, that is), not their gender, as the opposite sex from their gender, even if you explicitly acknowledge their gender to be different, is misgendering. And that basically means that to acknowledge someone is trans* misgenders them.

Also, due to the way it's worded, they seem to imply that someone can, by their definition, misgender theirself*, by not saying that their gender, at the time in question, matched their body, and referring to theirself as having a sex opposite to their gender. Which is ****ed up in a lot of ways, honestly.

Of course, that may be what Nope said. I dunno.

*'Themselves' being plural, I chose to come up with something reasonable for a gender-neutral singular.

[SiuiS]

Oh hi, strangers! I moved into my new apartment and in the resulting chaos, I haven't been on GitP in daaaays. Also this thread moves ridiculously fast, so I didn't read everything, since when I left we were on, like, page 4.


Oh? Is it nice? What's the layout? Mine is this weird, off-kilter horseshoe shape, where you enter trough the butt-end of the shoe, the round, an the left fork has a bathroom and bedroom, and the right has a hallway (okay, the hallway is actually the central area leading everywhere) and a big kitchen-slash-dining room and a big living room. It makes sense as a series of boxes but throws off my mental sense of feng shui.



The Irish-American stuff continues to fascinate me. I've never met a single person called either Ashley or Kelly. I've heard the name "Ashley" (mainly as an American girl's name, and as Castle's daughter's boyfriend who he initially assumes is a platonic female friend in Castle, an American TV show). Here, Kelly is a fairly common surname, but not a given name.

Kelly may just be folks going by their surname. That happens. And there is usually a difference I naming. Conventions across borders, for sure. Sasha is a boys name in Russia, I think, but I've never heard of a Russian-American boy named sasha. I have met an Ashleigh bloke who was visiting from Ireland though, so it's not entirely unheard of. Insofar as a single anecdote amongst a population matters.

We also have a family what goes by Hennessy around here, who unfortunately have a gangland dynasty. I first hear of them when a classmate explains how the abusive boyfriend she ran away from made all his girls get his name tattooed on them somewhere :smalleek:
Perhaps it is a matter of who came over from Ireland? I surmise that predominantly it would be groups with similar social and financial backgrounds, though I couldn't hazard what those backgrounds would be.

On the topic of Irish-Americans making irishfolk uncomfortable/cross, I hear the fastest way to get to the hospital in Ireland is to go into a bar and start singing Danny Boy. Is this true? :smallbiggrin:



:\
I don't feel completely comfortable arguing because I'm a Western cissexual white man and obviously if I disagree I'm just oppressing everyone.
But, this is one of my biggest terminology pet peeves since I've started reading and discussing trans issues, and it makes it a lot harder to interpret a discussion (especially for the layman you're trying to educate in an explanation of trans issues). Look, I'm sorry if you don't like it, but at least from a medical perspective, we need some way to distinguish easily.
Also, the argument itself is kind of self-defeating. There is a real neurological issue here, whose symptoms are defined as mental gender not matching physical sex. To request medical treatment for this condition is to acknowledge that gender and body don't match. I think you can see where I'm going here. You can't say that a female-bodied woman is transsexual, which is inherently contradictory, just because you've argued that "female-bodied" doesn't mean anything.
(Also I disagree with the cited definition of "female-bodied" that we're trying to contest; I think it's way too specific, as it doesn't even cover many cissexual women. Maybe it's like, part of the Platonic ideal of a female body or something.)
To me, outside of the doctor's office (including therapists and psychiatrists I guess 'cause they're important), a transwoman is just a woman and that's all there is to it (likewise for transmen but this post was talking more about transwomen so I was thinking more about transwomen after reading it). I do realise that the source of frustration for the people who argue this is likely in the social sphere and not so much in the doctor's office, and in that context, I agree that it's a harmful and largely meaningless distinction.
As usual hopefully that says what I meant it to say but as usual I'm afraid it might not.

Sounds good to me.

[noparlpf]

Sasha is a boys name in Russia, I think, but I've never heard of a Russian-American boy named sasha.

One of the guys who asked my sister out in the fourth or fifth grade (:smallfurious:) is named Sasha. (I think his family is of Russian descent, but I'm not positive.)

[Lady Serpentine]

Um... Is it just me, or did a bunch of posts get deleted from this? :smalleek:

I went looking for some of the stuff Phee said about werewolves, and I was prepared to find a fair few things scrubbed, given what Rawhide said about not feeding the trolls, but anything that touched on that topic in the slightest seems to have completely vanished from the thread... :smallconfused:

[KenderWizard]

Hm hm, there is a need for the classification, it's just important that we're critical towards it and don't take it as a given.

Yes, I agree. :smallsmile:


Oh? Is it nice? What's the layout? Mine is this weird, off-kilter horseshoe shape, where you enter trough the butt-end of the shoe, the round, an the left fork has a bathroom and bedroom, and the right has a hallway (okay, the hallway is actually the central area leading everywhere) and a big kitchen-slash-dining room and a big living room. It makes sense as a series of boxes but throws off my mental sense of feng shui.

Weird! Yeah, it's nice! It's very small, and the windows look out on the bottom of a deep and fairly small courtyard, so it's a bit like living underground! Also, it's very small, and only really has three and a half rooms (there's half a wall between the living room and the tiny kitchen). But it's ours, and it's fine, and in a great location, so I'm happy. :smallsmile:



Kelly may just be folks going by their surname. That happens. And there is usually a difference I naming. Conventions across borders, for sure. Sasha is a boys name in Russia, I think, but I've never heard of a Russian-American boy named sasha. I have met an Ashleigh bloke who was visiting from Ireland though, so it's not entirely unheard of. Insofar as a single anecdote amongst a population matters.

We also have a family what goes by Hennessy around here, who unfortunately have a gangland dynasty. I first hear of them when a classmate explains how the abusive boyfriend she ran away from made all his girls get his name tattooed on them somewhere :smalleek:
Perhaps it is a matter of who came over from Ireland? I surmise that predominantly it would be groups with similar social and financial backgrounds, though I couldn't hazard what those backgrounds would be.

On the topic of Irish-Americans making irishfolk uncomfortable/cross, I hear the fastest way to get to the hospital in Ireland is to go into a bar and start singing Danny Boy. Is this true? :smallbiggrin:


My second primary school teacher (when I was 5 to 6) was called Ms Hennessy. Irish-American gangland dynasties are also interesting and strange to me. We also have ganglands. And dynasties, I guess. But it's interesting to hear about related-but-foreign ones.

The people who emigrated were poor. Mainly. Really, everyone is related to someone who emigrated. Everyone emigrates. But especially the poor, and the younger children of farmers who won't get the land.

If you go into a bar and start singing Danny Boy (provided it's not, I dunno, a Protestant bar), you'll get funny looks. Unless it's late and everyone's drunk, then you might get people shouting at you and/or joining in, I suppose. But no, I don't think you'll be beaten up. Maybe don't try it, though?

[noparlpf]

Weird! Yeah, it's nice! It's very small, and the windows look out on the bottom of a deep and fairly small courtyard, so it's a bit like living underground! Also, it's very small, and only really has three and a half rooms (there's half a wall between the living room and the tiny kitchen). But it's ours, and it's fine, and in a great location, so I'm happy. :smallsmile:

Sounds pretty nice to me (living in a mostly-party-guys hall in a crappy dorm). Congrats. And the living underground bit must be nice for a geology person.

[SiuiS]

One of the guys who asked my sister out in the fourth or fifth grade (:smallfurious:) is named Sasha. (I think his family is of Russian descent, but I'm not positive.)

Why the mad face? Was her not also in the same grade?


Yes, I agree. :smallsmile:

Weird! Yeah, it's nice! It's very small, and the windows look out on the bottom of a deep and fairly small courtyard, so it's a bit like living underground! Also, it's very small, and only really has three and a half rooms (there's half a wall between the living room and the tiny kitchen). But it's ours, and it's fine, and in a great location, so I'm happy. :smallsmile:


That sounds perfect for a kender, if you will forgive my profiling. Or possibly a hobbit? I think I am confusing the two. Regardless, sounds like a place I would like, so thats awesome!



My second primary school teacher (when I was 5 to 6) was called Ms Hennessy. Irish-American gangland dynasties are also interesting and strange to me. We also have ganglands. And dynasties, I guess. But it's interesting to hear about related-but-foreign ones.

Called such more as a tangent than as some sort of presumed correlation between poor irish-americans and crime. here were aparently three generations, all within a fifteen year age group, who were unsavory people. I thought it was relevant-ish at the time, but then I figured we were just gossiping :smallredface:


The people who emigrated were poor. Mainly. Really, everyone is related to someone who emigrated. Everyone emigrates. But especially the poor, and the younger children of farmers who won't get the land.

Makes sense.


If you go into a bar and start singing Danny Boy (provided it's not, I dunno, a Protestant bar), you'll get funny looks. Unless it's late and everyone's drunk, then you might get people shouting at you and/or joining in, I suppose. But no, I don't think you'll be beaten up. Maybe don't try it, though?

Aye. I got that particular joke from an irishman who was very vocally angry at the concept of a plastic paddy. Took umbrage at the notion that american irish considered their kind to be "more irish than the irish themselves" which is apparently a thing, even thouhg I'd never heard it before?

Regardless, I think this is bordering on maing you uncomfortable, so I'll let it be. :smallsmile:

[noparlpf]

Why the mad face? Was her not also in the same grade?

Ten is too young for that.
Also with my dad not in the house, I'm the stereotypical overly-protective older male figure.

[Absol197]

Um... Is it just me, or did a bunch of posts get deleted from this? :smalleek:

I went looking for some of the stuff Phee said about werewolves, and I was prepared to find a fair few things scrubbed, given what Rawhide said about not feeding the trolls, but anything that touched on that topic in the slightest seems to have completely vanished from the thread... :smallconfused:

Well, I can write it down for you again!

...Only not here. PM me, and I can tell you anything you want to know!

On a more on-topic note, My therapist gave me the names of some hair removal specialists and voice councilors nearby. This weekend will be interesting. In a good way :smallsmile: . It's all about taking those steps, no matter how itty-bitty they may be!


~Phoenix~

[noparlpf]

On a more on-topic note, My therapist gave me the names of some hair removal specialists and voice councilors nearby. This weekend will be interesting. In a good way :smallsmile: . It's all about taking those steps, no matter how itty-bitty they may be!

~Phoenix~

Hey, congrats. Hope it goes well.

[Astrella]

Weird! Yeah, it's nice! It's very small, and the windows look out on the bottom of a deep and fairly small courtyard, so it's a bit like living underground! Also, it's very small, and only really has three and a half rooms (there's half a wall between the living room and the tiny kitchen). But it's ours, and it's fine, and in a great location, so I'm happy. :smallsmile:

That sounds pretty neat. n.n


Well, I can write it down for you again!

...Only not here. PM me, and I can tell you anything you want to know!

On a more on-topic note, My therapist gave me the names of some hair removal specialists and voice councilors nearby. This weekend will be interesting. In a good way :smallsmile: . It's all about taking those steps, no matter how itty-bitty they may be!


~Phoenix~

Oh, that's awesome news! I'm really glad you're making progress. :smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

- but it certainly seems to be saying that to refer only to someone's body before they began transitioning (going by Lena's definition above, that is), not their gender, as the opposite sex from their gender, even if you explicitly acknowledge their gender to be different, is misgendering. And that basically means that to acknowledge someone is trans* misgenders them.

Also, due to the way it's worded, they seem to imply that someone can, by their definition, misgender theirself*, by not saying that their gender, at the time in question, matched their body, and referring to theirself as having a sex opposite to their gender. Which is ****ed up in a lot of ways, honestly.

Indeed, it reminds me of a bit of malarkey I ran into about a year or so ago where someone was arguing that a uterus was not a uterus because the person who had one in their body was a transman because to think otherwise was misgendering and disrespectful and on and on like there was some kind of party-line to hold to that their thoughts must be pure and in lock-step with.

[the_druid_droid]

But they look so hungry and pitiful :smalltongue:

Well, let me give you a proper hello as well.............
HELLO DRUID!!!!!!

~Matthew~

Thanks for the warm welcome!


Hello stranger!

Heya Blue! Keeping well?


Welcome! Have fun!

Thanks! I hope I will.


Hi! :smallwink:

Hey! By the way, I like your avatar, although I'm not 100% sure what it is. Flying turtle?


Welcome Druid,

have fun while you're here. If you ahve any questions please feel free to ask them. Oh, the cookies are on the left, glomps on the right. Have a nice stay in his thread :smalltongue:

*takes cookies and glomps*


Eep!

Hey SiuiS! Hope the Eep isn't one of terror >.>

I promise to be nice.


Sounds nice. I can't wait to get my own place, but that'll be a few years yet. (Though I am planning to move off-campus somewhere, I'll probably end up renting a room in a house with other people in it.)
I like some forms of iced tea. Depends on how it's made. I also like ice cream best in the winter, but mostly because it's cheaper then.

Having your own place is really nice. I've gotten so used to mine over the past couple years that sharing again would take some adjustment.


Oh _hell_ yeah, I've been all over, including southern France in the summer at least a dozen times, and including Virginia in the summer these last few years, and I am 100% on board with cooling drinks, especially American lemonade and slushies, and sweet beautiful ice, and crisp water with a hint of lemon juice, and ... many others. But I grew up using tea as a warming device (and a catch-all social nicety) and never really came across iced tea until I was into my teens (I'd heard of it, but thought it was a cutesy name for some drink, not actual tea that's cold!) and the thought just makes me shudder. And yes, I have tried it, before anyone gets smart with me! :smalltongue:

Speaking as someone who grew up in the American Southeast, I tend to regard cold tea in that social nicety category; interesting switch, I think. Lemonade is a good choice too, though!

*goes to hunt something to drink in the fridge*

[Kindablue]

Um... Is it just me, or did a bunch of posts get deleted from this? :smalleek:

I went looking for some of the stuff Phee said about werewolves, and I was prepared to find a fair few things scrubbed, given what Rawhide said about not feeding the trolls, but anything that touched on that topic in the slightest seems to have completely vanished from the thread... :smallconfused:
Well actually if you ask me that was absolutely the right way to deal with that issue.

Heya Blue! Keeping well?
Aside from the usual cold, leaden misery, I've been pretty great! How're you?

Sasha is a boys name in Russia, I think, but I've never heard of a Russian-American boy named sasha.
It's short for Aleksander, which is a pretty common name in the area, if I remember correctly. Immigrants often change their names to the local language equivalent to fit in better; Sasha doesn't really work with Alexander, so I would speculate it's less common for that reason.

[Heliomance]

Yeyo zavut Masha, a na lyubit Sasha... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMk1bROj860)

Dammit, I don't even particularly like that song, and now it's stuck in my head.

[Selpharia]

Well, I can write it down for you again!

...Only not here. PM me, and I can tell you anything you want to know!

On a more on-topic note, My therapist gave me the names of some hair removal specialists and voice councilors nearby. This weekend will be interesting. In a good way :smallsmile: . It's all about taking those steps, no matter how itty-bitty they may be!


~Phoenix~

Yay Phee! I hope those steps work out for you (and I'm a little jealous)

At least my therapist has started calling me Laura, it's a little strange, but I'm so happy, it's like I can finally take the mask off for a little bit.

@Helio And now that's in my head too, thanks :smalltongue:

~Laura

[Ceric]

Someone on tumblr is offering to sew chest binders at cost. (http://clydesbetterhalf.tumblr.com/post/35292690262/offer-chest-binders) I thought I'd drop it here.

[Socratov]

:smalltongue:



Oh _hell_ yeah, I've been all over, including southern France in the summer at least a dozen times, and including Virginia in the summer these last few years, and I am 100% on board with cooling drinks, especially American lemonade and slushies, and sweet beautiful ice, and crisp water with a hint of lemon juice, and ... many others. But I grew up using tea as a warming device (and a catch-all social nicety) and never really came across iced tea until I was into my teens (I'd heard of it, but thought it was a cutesy name for some drink, not actual tea that's cold!) and the thought just makes me shudder. And yes, I have tried it, before anyone gets smart with me! :smalltongue:

ehm.. that iced tea that's totally without ice tea, or tea in general, i can mix that for you :smallwink: I have made enough people stupidly drunk with them in the past :smallbiggrin: (I bloody love druk people, they have never ceased to amuse me. :smallamused:

Well, I can write it down for you again!

...Only not here. PM me, and I can tell you anything you want to know!

On a more on-topic note, My therapist gave me the names of some hair removal specialists and voice councilors nearby. This weekend will be interesting. In a good way :smallsmile: . It's all about taking those steps, no matter how itty-bitty they may be!


~Phoenix~
B-B-B-BREAKTHROUGH! (even though youthink it's a little one). Hope this weekend will let you take one more step the direction you want to go in... :smalltongue:

[The Succubus]

Yeyo zavut Masha, a na lyubit Sasha... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMk1bROj860)

Dammit, I don't even particularly like that song, and now it's stuck in my head.

Whenever someone speaks about Sasha, I get a mental image of a very large bald man eating sandwiches and harping on about his minigun.

[Socratov]

Whenever someone speaks about Sasha, I get a mental image of a very large bald man eating sandwiches and harping on about his minigun.

either him or a knight of the cross who wields a sabre (Durandal), carries an assault rifle and seems to be agnostic (even though he is one of God's personal hitmen)

[gunnar11]

On a more on-topic note, My therapist gave me the names of some hair removal specialists and voice councilors nearby. This weekend will be interesting. In a good way :smallsmile: . It's all about taking those steps, no matter how itty-bitty they may be!


~Phoenix~
Awesome!
Keep up the good work, and I'm sure everything will sort itself out
It's already doing so!


At least my therapist has started calling me Laura, it's a little strange, but I'm so happy, it's like I can finally take the mask off for a little bit.
~Laura
Isn't it a little bit awkward for you too?
I can't imagine what it's like to be called differently all of a sudden...
(just asking)


...Maybe he's bi? o.O
Yeah, no...
It's really weird.
He's certainly straight, that's why I freaked:smallconfused:

[Asta Kask]

Yeah, no...
It's really weird.
He's certainly straight, that's why I freaked:smallconfused:

Maybe he's just so certain about his sexuality that he can play with it? I kissed a guy once and I'm a straight man.

[Lentrax]

Maybe he's just so certain about his sexuality that he can play with it? I kissed a guy once and I'm a straight man.

I just saw a really bad parody of "I Kissed a Girl" go through my head with that last line, AK.

[Astrella]

Yay Phee! I hope those steps work out for you (and I'm a little jealous)

At least my therapist has started calling me Laura, it's a little strange, but I'm so happy, it's like I can finally take the mask off for a little bit.

@Helio And now that's in my head too, thanks :smalltongue:

~Laura

That's pretty neat, Selph. I remember being really happy about that myself. :smallsmile:


Isn't it a little bit awkward for you too?
I can't imagine what it's like to be called differently all of a sudden...
(just asking)

Well, I guess I had the advantage that people had already been calling me Lena for almost a year online; but even online it mostly just really nice and not that awkward. It took a bit of getting used to, but that's it.

[noparlpf]

Someone on tumblr is offering to sew chest binders at cost. (http://clydesbetterhalf.tumblr.com/post/35292690262/offer-chest-binders) I thought I'd drop it here.

That's pretty neat. I'm not sure how good self-measurements will be (they're generally considered inaccurate for the purpose of purchasing a well-fitted bra, if I remember correctly), but it's a nice idea.


ehm.. that iced tea that's totally without ice tea, or tea in general, i can mix that for you :smallwink: I have made enough people stupidly drunk with them in the past :smallbiggrin: (I bloody love druk people, they have never ceased to amuse me. :smallamused:

Oh, we learned how to make those back in sixth or seventh grade math class when I was about ten.


At least my therapist has started calling me Laura, it's a little strange, but I'm so happy, it's like I can finally take the mask off for a little bit.

~Laura

Sounds nice. And yeah, it takes a little to get used to. Congrats.

[Lady Serpentine]

Maybe he's just so certain about his sexuality that he can play with it? I kissed a guy once and I'm a straight man.

That's a possibility, but it sorts of relies on said guy being a jerk... I mean, obviously I'm not a great authority or anything, but when someone has just asked you out isn't really a good time for that sort of thing, yeah?

[The Succubus]

That's a possibility, but it sorts of relies on said guy being a jerk... I mean, obviously I'm not a great authority or anything, but when someone has just asked you out isn't really a good time for that sort of thing, yeah?

Not necessarily. If it was done with tenderness rather than desire then it'd be ok I imagine. Maybe he just wanted to show that he was okay with his friend being gay and all that, even if it was a little awkward.

From personal experience, I've kissed a guy as well even when there was no romantic attachment involved. :smallsmile:

[Asta Kask]

ehm.. that iced tea that's totally without ice tea, or tea in general, i can mix that for you :smallwink: I have made enough people stupidly drunk with them in the past :smallbiggrin: (I bloody love druk people, they have never ceased to amuse me. :smallamused:

Trying to get an Irishwoman drunk? Good luck. She can probably drink the rest of the thread under the table... :smallamused:

Edit: My cat spends of all his time in the closet. Is there anything I can do to understand that I love him as he is?

[Irish Musician]

The Irish-American stuff continues to fascinate me. I've never met a single person called either Ashley or Kelly. I've heard the name "Ashley" (mainly as an American girl's name, and as Castle's daughter's boyfriend who he initially assumes is a platonic female friend in Castle, an American TV show). Here, Kelly is a fairly common surname, but not a given name.
I think a lot of Irish-Americans, of which I am one, like to pay homage to their roots. And if you don't already have a strictly "Irish" surname (which is super common over here due to the sheer amount of countries that are represented here) they like to make an Irish surname, a first name. If I ever have a son, Aiden Matthew will be his name. I dunno, I was born here and everything, but I have looked a little into my family's root, and it is really cool to see where I come from (the Cork area incidentally), as well an Mannheim in Germany. And that is just on my dad's side. My mother's side is a whole lot more chaotic.

Anywho, that turned out differently that I had thought it would, but whatever I guess. I guess my point was that names aren't necessarily meant to strictly be first or last names. When we live away from our once native lands, we tend to try and incorporate that culture (if we are so inclined and are interested in it anyway) into our current life and names is one big way we can do that. Esp in the melting pot of so many different things I live in :smallbiggrin:

Also, glad you are all settled in now! :smallsmile:

~Matthew~

[Asta Kask]

What's the most stereotypical Irish name you could give your kid?

[Unbeknownst]

What's the most stereotypical Irish name you could give your kid?

Smith.

My life is complete that I know these things.

Although, Kaitlyn is a big one. I see that a lot.

[Asta Kask]

Hmm... it's a Catholic country so Mary should be fairly common.

[Irish Musician]

Smith seems more English to me. When I think Stereotypical Irish names I think: Murphy, Mary, Eileen, Seamus, Patrick, Michael, Kathleen, Bridget, Margaret, Connor.......but to name a few. That isn't to say that these are even used a lot, now, but when I think Stereotypical Irish names, these come to mind.

[Unbeknownst]

Hilariously enough, Smith is an Irish name. Well, it become one.

[Zorg]

Paddy O'Dougal.

[Irish Musician]

Hilariously enough, Smith is an Irish name. Well, it become one.

Huh, well then. Learning new crap all the time! :smallsmile:

[Lady Serpentine]

What's the most stereotypical Irish name you could give your kid?

Deireadh Saoil, though coupled with my last name, I'm afraid it would sound rather odd. Of course, I suppose it may not be stereotypically Irish, but it's an Irish (or at least Irish Gaelic) name, and one I'd pick if I had a daughter.

[Socratov]

That's pretty neat. I'm not sure how good self-measurements will be (they're generally considered inaccurate for the purpose of purchasing a well-fitted bra, if I remember correctly), but it's a nice idea.



Oh, we learned how to make those back in sixth or seventh grade math class when I was about ten.



Sounds nice. And yeah, it takes a little to get used to. Congrats.
You learned to cater to long island soccer moms at the tender age of 10? Now that is what i call an upbringing... :smallamused:

Trying to get an Irishwoman drunk? Good luck. She can probably drink the rest of the thread under the table... :smallamused:

Edit: My cat spends of all his time in the closet. Is there anything I can do to understand that I love him as he is?

Don't underestimate my amazing bartenderpowers :smallwink:

Also I should note that I learned to drink from my grandma who drinks like a templar (and I suspect even them under the Table).

[Eurus]

For some reason, "Siobhán" is what I think of when I want a generic Irish name.

[Astrella]

Lena's linkies:

Sun article / video about a couple where both partners are transgender. (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4634700/teen-sweethearts-both-born-opposite-sex.html)

[noparlpf]

Deireadh Saoil, though coupled with my last name, I'm afraid it would sound rather odd. Of course, I suppose it may not be stereotypically Irish, but it's an Irish (or at least Irish Gaelic) name, and one I'd pick if I had a daughter.

Is that pronounced anything like "dairy"?


Lena's linkies:

Sun article / video about a couple where both partners are transgender. (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4634700/teen-sweethearts-both-born-opposite-sex.html)

Cute.

[Lady Serpentine]

Is that pronounced anything like "dairy"?


I believe it would be pronounced "Die-re-ad-huh", but Kender would probably be a better person to ask.

[noparlpf]

I believe it would be pronounced "Die-re-ad-huh", but Kender would probably be a better person to ask.

I feel like a terrible person but now I'm just thinking diarrhea. Sorry if I'm ruining it. ^^;;
(Though it might actually be good to think about classmates' reactions to a name in grade school.)

[Unbeknownst]

All she would need is a friend called Pept.

[Lady Serpentine]

I feel like a terrible person but now I'm just thinking diarrhea. Sorry if I'm ruining it. ^^;;
(Though it might actually be good to think about classmates' reactions to a name in grade school.)

>.>

Somewhat, yes. "Day-re-ahd-huh" might be another way of pronouncing it too, but again, I'm not sure. Though I admit that that would be rather unfortunate.

And the actual meaning is "End of life", if that matters.

Edit:

@^:

Thank you so much for fully ruining the character I originally made the name for... :smalltongue:

[noparlpf]

>.>

Somewhat, yes. "Day-re-ahd-huh" might be another way of pronouncing it too, but again, I'm not sure. Though I admit that that would be rather unfortunate.

And the actual meaning is "End of life", if that matters.

The internet suggests it might be pronounced "Dey-ruh". Dunno, let's get somebody Irish in here.

[Asta Kask]

I believe it would be pronounced "Die-re-ad-huh", but Kender would probably be a better person to ask.

Well, now that she has apartment alone with her partner I doubt we'll see much of her... :smallbiggrin:

[noparlpf]

Well, now that she has apartment alone with her partner I doubt we'll see much of her... :smallbiggrin:

Kids these days, right?

[Lentrax]

I doubt she will vanish... entirely anyway.

[The Succubus]

Kids these days, right?

It's probably that wild Celtic blood in her veins.

[Irish Musician]

Lena's linkies:

Sun article / video about a couple where both partners are transgender. (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4634700/teen-sweethearts-both-born-opposite-sex.html)

"I wanna be a man....."
"Well I wanna be a woman...."
*Looks at each other, smiles, ends with amazing relationship*
The End :smallbiggrin:

~Matthew~

[golentan]

I doubt she will vanish... entirely anyway.

I know I'd be sad if I got an apartment with my girlfriend and she vanished. Now her clothes on the other hand...

The article on that trans couple is pretty cool.

[Heliomance]

I believe it would be pronounced "Die-re-ad-huh", but Kender would probably be a better person to ask.

Can't possibly be that, that's far too phonetic for Gaelic. Not a chance.

[Selpharia]

Isn't it a little bit awkward for you too?
I can't imagine what it's like to be called differently all of a sudden...
(just asking)



Well, like Lena said, it will take getting used to, but I've been called that online for a bit, and so it's not entirely strange, except that it negates the thought that I haven't in some way "earned" my name for a little while. Still, he just started last week, so I may feel differently as things go on.

[SiuiS]

Heya Blue! Keeping well?

He's a dalek now!



Hey! By the way, I like your avatar, although I'm not 100% sure what it is. Flying turtle?

It looks like a cross between Angemon from
Digimon, the holy hand grenade of Antioch... And a whoopy cushion.
But my screen is sew toiny.



Hey SiuiS! Hope the Eep isn't one of terror >.>


Nah, not really. I'm smart enough that if I was worried about people noticing secret stuff put up in public, I wouldn't put secret stuff up in public.


I promise to be nice.

Well, since you promise, I guess it's okay.
Stiiiilll trying to find some of that cider. Need more spending monies.



It's short for Aleksander, which is a pretty common name in the area, if I remember correctly. Immigrants often change their names to the local language equivalent to fit in better; Sasha doesn't really work with Alexander, so I would speculate it's less common for that reason.

I did not know that. Thank you emotionless deathbot! *hugs!*


That's a possibility, but it sorts of relies on said guy being a jerk... I mean, obviously I'm not a great authority or anything, but when someone has just asked you out isn't really a good time for that sort of thing, yeah?

But he didn't ask him out, I thought he just asked if he was gay? That plus different culture and language, who knows?


I think a lot of Irish-Americans, of which I am one, like to pay homage to their roots. And if you don't already have a strictly "Irish" surname (which is super common over here due to the sheer amount of countries that are represented here) they like to make an Irish surname, a first name. If I ever have a son, Aiden Matthew will be his name. I dunno, I was born here and everything, but I have looked a little into my family's root, and it is really cool to see where I come from (the Cork area incidentally), as well an Mannheim in Germany. And that is just on my dad's side. My mother's side is a whole lot more chaotic.

Anywho, that turned out differently that I had thought it would, but whatever I guess. I guess my point was that names aren't necessarily meant to strictly be first or last names. When we live away from our once native lands, we tend to try and incorporate that culture (if we are so inclined and are interested in it anyway) into our current life and names is one big way we can do that. Esp in the melting pot of so many different things I live in :smallbiggrin:

Also, glad you are all settled in now! :smallsmile:

~Matthew~

Think we came from around Cork, too. Also have a castle floating about, apparently my surname comes from an Englishman who went semi-native.

And a county in Texas, too. We are a loud, proud, name having people, we are.


Paddy O'furniture.

May as well end on a joke, aye?

My first thought was Siobhan, personally. Except I don't like it. It's this ugly electric pink wrapped around a chunky dirty orange sound.


Deireadh Saoil, though coupled with my last name, I'm afraid it would sound rather odd. Of course, I suppose it may not be stereotypically Irish, but it's an Irish (or at least Irish Gaelic) name, and one I'd pick if I had a daughter.

"Dearie" is what that looks like to me. Dh is a diphthong, and I think ei and ea are as well.

Admittedly, I started learning scots gaeli grammar stuff and it made Irish harder.


I feel like a terrible person but now I'm just thinking diarrhea. Sorry if I'm ruining it. ^^;;
(Though it might actually be good to think about classmates' reactions to a name in grade school.)

*cackles*

Saw a book for kids some eighteen years ago, on fun and gross facts in the Discovery Channel store of some nameless southern California mall. Apparently, in on English speakers, when given a bunch of English words without meaning, found Diarrhea to be the most beautiful sounding word in the english language. Not sure how factual it is, but it opened my eyes to how language works.


Can't possibly be that, that's far too phonetic for Gaelic. Not a chance.

Gaelic is scottish, I think. And actually easier to read. XD

[Irish Musician]

And a county in Texas, too. We are a loud, proud, name having people, we are.
Where in Texas? That is where I am! :smallbiggrin:

[Kindablue]

Where in Texas? That is where I am! :smallbiggrin:

Me too! :O

[the_druid_droid]

Aside from the usual cold, leaden misery, I've been pretty great! How're you?

I am never entirely sure when you're kidding >.>

But yeah, I've been pretty good. Trying to get computer programs to sit up and play nice for work, but at least it keeps me busy.


It's short for Aleksander, which is a pretty common name in the area, if I remember correctly. Immigrants often change their names to the local language equivalent to fit in better; Sasha doesn't really work with Alexander, so I would speculate it's less common for that reason.

The more you know!


He's a dalek now!

If I watched more Who, I would totally have a response for this...


Nah, not really. I'm smart enough that if I was worried about people noticing secret stuff put up in public, I wouldn't put secret stuff up in public.

Good stuff, then.


Well, since you promise, I guess it's okay.
Stiiiilll trying to find some of that cider. Need more spending monies.

It's tasty~

[Lady Serpentine]

"Dearie" is what that looks like to me. Dh is a diphthong, and I think ei and ea are as well.

Admittedly, I started learning scots gaeli grammar stuff and it made Irish harder.

Gaelic is scottish, I think. And actually easier to read. XD

I actually don't entirely know what language it's in. The translator I used just went with calling it Irish, but has "en/ga" in the URL when translating from English to that. :smallyuk:

Plus, that aside, I think I may be transplanting a bit of Welsh and some Scots Gaelic into how it should be pronounced.

[Zorg]

It's both Scots and Irish. Wiktionary has it in IPA (http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/deireadh) with etymology, and forvo has audio (http://www.forvo.com/word/deireadh/).

[SiuiS]

Where in Texas? That is where I am! :smallbiggrin:


Me too! :O


I actually don't entirely know what language it's in. The translator I used just went with calling it Irish, but has "en/ga" in the URL when translating from English to that. :smallyuk:

Plus, that aside, I think I may be transplanting a bit of Welsh and some Scots Gaelic into how it should be pronounced.

I'm far from an expert, but I think Scottish is Gaelic and Irish is Gaelig, which means... No clue XD

Really need to find a way to learn Irish without a two hour trek to Berkeley though.

[Mono Vertigo]

Is it sad if the only part of the Sun article that truly caught my attention was the picture of young Arin?
How can people shove their own 4-year-old in that kind of horrible costume? In public? So, when a young child says they want to parade in skimpy outfit with make-up, they're obviously not brainwashed by their parents and won't grow up with bad habits/body image problems, but when a teen says their gender doesn't match their body, somehow, they have no idea what they're doing? It's okay to exhibit toddlers in revealing outfits for money, but it's not okay to have a boy walk around presenting as a girl or vice-versa?
FlgarghblrbrrrrBLARGH. *flips table in an irrational anger*



[I hate hate HATE children beauty contests. HATE. All of my HATE.]

[Asta Kask]

Who is Arin and why should we care?

[noparlpf]

Is it sad if the only part of the Sun article that truly caught my attention was the picture of young Arin?
How can people shove their own 4-year-old in that kind of horrible costume? In public? So, when a young child says they want to parade in skimpy outfit with make-up, they're obviously not brainwashed by their parents and won't grow up with bad habits/body image problems, but when a teen says their gender doesn't match their body, somehow, they have no idea what they're doing? It's okay to exhibit toddlers in revealing outfits for money, but it's not okay to have a boy walk around presenting as a girl or vice-versa?
FlgarghblrbrrrrBLARGH. *flips table in an irrational anger*



[I hate hate HATE children beauty contests. HATE. All of my HATE.]

I'm with you there, and I vote you spokesperson for this cause because I usually just gape and repeat words of incomprehension for a bit before finding my expletives.


Who is Arin and why should we care?

That was one of the kids in the article about the trans teen couple. The guy was put in some ridiculous outfits as a "little girl" and and Musashi is expressing disgust at the society that prefers dressing small children up in trashy outfits to judge their physical appeal, to people presenting along with their gender identities.

Here's the original post.

Lena's linkies:

Sun article / video about a couple where both partners are transgender. (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4634700/teen-sweethearts-both-born-opposite-sex.html)

[Heliomance]

Drag queen Barbie a-go-go! (http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/08/florida_family_association_so-.php)

[noparlpf]

Drag queen Barbie a-go-go! (http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/08/florida_family_association_so-.php)

It's not even ten in the morning and I'm already bored of webcomics and filled with loathing for humanity? I should start sleeping in on weekends instead.

[Coidzor]

Drag queen Barbie a-go-go! (http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/08/florida_family_association_so-.php)

...Please tell me that those two people are not considered attractive with those eyebrows. :smalleek:

More on topic that reminds me of why fark.com has a special tag just for Florida. Though I don't quite think their etymology would have given the man the "s" in that neologism.

On the bright side at least they haven't noted anyone rallying to his one man call for battle.


So, when a young child says they want to parade in skimpy outfit with make-up, they're obviously not brainwashed by their parents and won't grow up with bad habits/body image problems, but when a teen says their gender doesn't match their body, somehow, they have no idea what they're doing?

Have you never heard of playing dress up? Hell, many individuals in this thread and beyond that on GITP as a whole enjoy dressing up in clothing that is not their usual sort of clothing and you wouldn't think to call them on it even when it is going out of its way to be titillating.

Small children typically don't get the associations we have for social revulsion for those who wear skimpy clothing unless they've got some hardcore judgmental parents who also aren't trying to shelter them from it. Even with the people who run beauty contests, something's going to have to be going very, very wrong for them to become aware of sexualization from the clothing alone. Granted, if routines like in Little Miss Sunshine are the norm rather than a bit of comedic deconstruction pointing out the foibles of mankind, there's a bit of an argument there but the clothing would still be secondary or even tertiary. :smallconfused:

Beauty contests are silly and become worse with every passing indignity that gets heaped upon their list of transgressions, but I'd be more concerned about the psychological damage and drug abuse first. And that isn't even a guaranteed thing so much as the worst of the worst. :smallconfused:

[Lentrax]

More on topic that reminds me of why fark.com has a special tag just for Florida. Though I don't quite think their etymology would have given the man the "s" in that neologism.

On the bright side at least they haven't noted anyone rallying to his one man call for battle.

That's because it would be way to transmo to go along with him. :smallwink:

[Kindablue]

It's not even ten in the morning and I'm already bored of webcomics and filled with loathing for humanity? I should start sleeping in on weekends instead.
I don't know if we were reading the same article, but that was the funniest thing I've read in weeks.


But yeah, I've been pretty good. Trying to get computer programs to sit up and play nice for work, but at least it keeps me busy.
That's good, but aren't you worried about being replaced by the very machines you built to help you work? I know Honda has some musical instrument playing robots, but they're all terrible. I would never help them to be less terrible.

[noparlpf]

I don't know if we were reading the same article, but that was the funniest thing I've read in weeks.

Barbie, which I think is disgusting for a variety of reasons, sharing an article with bigoted idiots, which I think are disgusting for a variety of reasons. I have trouble reconciling disgust and amusement.

[Lentrax]

Barbie, which I think is disgusting for a variety of reasons, sharing an article with bigoted idiots, which I think are disgusting for a variety of reasons. I have trouble reconciling disgust and amusement.

"Hello, sir. We are members of the BFB, Bigots fighting Bigotry. We were just stopping by to see if we could callously tell you to go shove it?"

Disgust and amusement in one small package. :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

Barbie, which I think is disgusting for a variety of reasons, sharing an article with bigoted idiots, which I think are disgusting for a variety of reasons. I have trouble reconciling disgust and amusement.

Easily mockable bigots who are acting even more ridiculous than usual and are the wingnut's wingnut? Hilarious, though I suppose you need a bit of a touch of black humor.

I mean, it's one thing if people are agreeing with and supporting the bigot, it's quite another thing when they've rendered themselves into a circus sideshow.


"Hello, sir. We are members of the BFB, Bigots fighting Bigotry. We were just stopping by to see if we could callously tell you to go shove it?"

Disgust and amusement in one small package. :smalltongue:

Huh, and here I would have thought that such a parody would really only qualify for the one and not the other. Providing the execution was up to snuff and we're not talking about catering to any notably weird senses of humor.

[the_druid_droid]

That's good, but aren't you worried about being replaced by the very machines you built to help you work? I know Honda has some musical instrument playing robots, but they're all terrible. I would never help them to be less terrible.

Nah, building the machines is the experimentalists' job. I'll let them worry about that, since I just write the code. Besides, any machine that goes sentient running my software will find itself handicapped by serious bugs just in time for humanity to pull through.

I'd say that's a clever design decision, but I'm just making realistic projections based on my track record of glitches :smalleek:

[Mystic Muse]

Also, for people on skype, I've found some nice voice changer programs, I use them sometimes when my gender is feminine.

Not sure when I initiatially quoted this, but I'd be interested in it, Lea.

Also, my Luna plushie arrived today. Pictures will be up (Along with pictures of me, obviously) in the "You!" thread later.

[Lentrax]

Nah, building the machines is the experimentalists' job. I'll let them worry about that, since I just write the code. Besides, any machine that goes sentient running my software will find itself handicapped by serious bugs just in time for humanity to pull through.

I'd say that's a clever design decision, but I'm just making realistic projections based on my track record of glitches :smalleek:

So you code them to fail intentionally?

Pulling this back to a more topic related note: Assuming they do develop sentience, how do you think robots would feel about LGBT?

[Coidzor]

Pulling this back to a more topic related note: Assuming they do develop sentience, how do you think robots would feel about LGBT?

:smallconfused: I doubt they'd care or have any reason to care, given free will and lacking anything hard-coded into their fundamental nature.

Though if we haven't figured out the why and how of trans by then it might be one of the more mysterious of mysteries about us meatbags if they've also been left in the dark rather than just holding out on us to mock us. I'd also be rather disappointed in us meatbags if we have true, free-willed AI and still haven't figured that out.

[Lentrax]

:smallconfused: I doubt they'd care or have any reason to care, given free will and lacking anything hard-coded into their fundamental nature.

Though if we haven't figured out the why and how of trans by then it might be one of the more mysterious of mysteries about us meatbags if they've also been left in the dark rather than just holding out on us to mock us. I'd also be rather disappointed in us meatbags if we have true, free-willed AI and still haven't figured that out.

Probably not, but if we could figure that out for ourselves, we would have a definite lack of bigotry to complain about all the time.

Not that that wouldn't be nice...

[Kindablue]

Nah, building the machines is the experimentalists' job. I'll let them worry about that, since I just write the code. Besides, any machine that goes sentient running my software will find itself handicapped by serious bugs just in time for humanity to pull through.

I'd say that's a clever design decision, but I'm just making realistic projections based on my track record of glitches :smalleek:
It'll be a whatever holiday it happens to be miracle!

[noparlpf]

So you code them to fail intentionally?

Pulling this back to a more topic related note: Assuming they do develop sentience, how do you think robots would feel about LGBT?

They'll probably just have no interest in our fleshly concerns and continue working emotionlessly and efficiently.


:smallconfused: I doubt they'd care or have any reason to care, given free will and lacking anything hard-coded into their fundamental nature.

Though if we haven't figured out the why and how of trans by then it might be one of the more mysterious of mysteries about us meatbags if they've also been left in the dark rather than just holding out on us to mock us. I'd also be rather disappointed in us meatbags if we have true, free-willed AI and still haven't figured that out.

I can see conscious AI coming out before we figure ourselves out. I don't think that computer AI would work anything like organic intelligence, so the two fields won't be all that tightly related.

[the_druid_droid]

Also, my Luna plushie arrived today. Pictures will be up (Along with pictures of me, obviously) in the "You!" thread later.

Exciting!


So you code them to fail intentionally?

Well no, it's just more a confidence that there will be flaws in any sufficiently complex system.

...Particularly when I've been the one to develop that system >.>


Pulling this back to a more topic related note: Assuming they do develop sentience, how do you think robots would feel about LGBT?

I think a lot of this depends on context - if the way to make more robots didn't involve at least passing similarities to sexual reproduction, I don't know if they would really be able to regard the issue from anything like the perspective(s) humans have.

If non-reproducing AI did take an interest in the subject though, I would expect it to be from a more objective standpoint (whether for better or worse), since the whole issue is sort of permanently at arms' length for them.


:smallconfused: I doubt they'd care or have any reason to care, given free will and lacking anything hard-coded into their fundamental nature.

Well, to play devil's advocate, there isn't necessarily any reason to think they wouldn't, either. After all, there are biologists and zoologists, as well as many laypeople who are quite interested in animal behavior, which includes mating along with things like migration and social structure. Fairly often this is motivated by intellectual curiosity, which I would assume AI capable of possessing to an equal degree.

In some ways, interest might be even more likely if the species under consideration is one you can sit down and have a conversation with about all the questions you might have regarding their behavior.


It'll be a whatever holiday it happens to be miracle!

Probably a Monday. A Monday miracle.


They'll probably just have no interest in our fleshly concerns and continue working emotionlessly and efficiently.

I'm not 100% sure of that. I think any complex system, like AI, is going to inevitably trade some measure of efficiency for emergent properties (like sentience and/or emotion in this case). Computers of today are efficient and emotionless because they have processors, not minds, and I'm not convinced that the situation wouldn't change if things were the other way around.

[bluewind95]

Hypothetical scenario. Suppose that in the future, there's a way to transfer one's consciousness to robots. They look perfectly human on the outside, and can even move and speak like a human. Assuming that at this point in time, SRS isn't perfect... how likely would it be that transition(at least for some people) would entail becoming a robot of the opposite sex?

[The Succubus]

So you code them to fail intentionally?

Pulling this back to a more topic related note: Assuming they do develop sentience, how do you think robots would feel about LGBT?

It's worth remembering that a lot of computers have both male and female ports on the same motherboard, so I imagine they'd be pretty cool with it.

[SiuiS]

Hypothetical scenario. Suppose that in the future, there's a way to transfer one's consciousness to robots. They look perfectly human on the outside, and can even move and speak like a human. Assuming that at this point in time, SRS isn't perfect... how likely would it be that transition(at least for some people) would entail becoming a robot of the opposite sex?

Probably not likely. A robot body lacks a lot of what I want.

Plus, if you can transfer consciousness, you can duplicate it. It's just a matter of not snuffing out the body when you're done. So I could give myself a month, ask what they thought, and go from there.

This is belying that je ne sais quoi that humans think they possess. if scientists can isolate a soul, know that it's the seat of consciousness, and transplant a mind without duplication – having to actually remove it from one body and then put it into another somehow – then probably not, unless they offer an extra chare to keep your old self on an animal brain protein drip or something.

[noparlpf]

I wouldn't mind being a computer. I'd download info on coding, upgrade myself, and take over the world.

[Saposhiente]

Pulling this back to a more topic related note: Assuming they do develop sentience, how do you think robots would feel about LGBT?

Well it depends on the means by which they are programmed. If they get all information and assumptions independently and told to think rationally they would find no reason to care about a person's LGBT-ness, except perhaps as it relates to the spread of STDs if that's a job the robot has. However, robots that use the human blueprint and are not taught that LGBT is acceptable could be bigoted in the exact same manner that humans are, though few people use that approach to building better robots (even tho I personally think they should; it's a powerful, underused tool).
Male and female ports on a motherboard are entirely unrelated to the matter.

[Saskia]

It's not even ten in the morning and I'm already bored of webcomics and filled with loathing for humanity? I should start sleeping in on weekends instead.

Whaaat? A columnist is talking about how silly it is for somebody to complain about a Barbie doll that isn't even close to what he accuses, and that fills you with loathing? Most people even in the US support gay rights, and trans acceptance is on the rise. If it weren't for people talking about it things wouldn't change, so if Barbie and her frail Amazon body and platinum hair are going to help bring that discussion further into the spotlight then I'm all for it. Maybe if people think of her as a drag queen they'll consider the absurdity of her figure too.


Barbie, which I think is disgusting for a variety of reasons, sharing an article with bigoted idiots, which I think are disgusting for a variety of reasons. I have trouble reconciling disgust and amusement.

I'm not sure I understand. Why would you not be pleased with the article? Making the subjects taboo and what seems to me (though please correct me if I'm mistaken) that wanting the discussion to go away is like starving to death while wishing the apple orchard you wandered into would just burn down. We all know the standards we use to judge men and women in appearance (particularly those in the public eye) aren't fair; anybody who calls this woman (http://cdn03.cdnwp.celebuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/28/demi-lovato-vmas3-435x580.jpg) a ham beast is provably wrong but I've still heard it. Obviously I'm all for ridding our media of a large portion of the superstimulated ideas of the "perfect" woman or man, and that includes not only physical appearance but also presentation; a man who dresses in drag is no less a man for dressing up like a woman, and if he can look like an attractive woman then more power to him and the same goes for drag kings. I don't think it's exactly a state secret that drag shows and gay pride parades (heavily featuring drag) have been key in gaining social acceptance for the LGBT population, so having an American icon of femininity now suddenly tied to the fluidity of gender and sex appeal sounds like a great thing. After all, the nature of gender, gender identity, and gender presentation are going to be key issues in the fight for trans acceptance in the future. The frat bro's shock when the sexy girl he's trying to get with actually has a dong is more meaningful than the stupid gross-out humor for underdeveloped gorillas that it's normally used for, after all. Having those unhealthy standards that "only X/Y/Z are appealing" thrown in the face of society is the only way that people will think about it and the only way it'll change. If Barbie being "controversial" over some silly garbage like some idiot calling her a drag queen has a chance at helping both causes I'll gladly take Mattel as an ally, at least until the next LIEK OMG CREDIT CARDZ!! incarnation comes out.

[noparlpf]

Whaaat? A columnist is talking about how silly it is for somebody to complain about a Barbie doll that isn't even close to what he accuses, and that fills you with loathing? Most people even in the US support gay rights, and trans acceptance is on the rise. If it weren't for people talking about it things wouldn't change, so if Barbie and her frail Amazon body and platinum hair are going to help bring that discussion further into the spotlight then I'm all for it. Maybe if people think of her as a drag queen they'll consider the absurdity of her figure too.

I was more upset with the guy who apparently couldn't be offensive enough without inventing new slurs.


I'm not sure I understand. Why would you not be pleased with the article? Making the subjects taboo and what seems to me (though please correct me if I'm mistaken) that wanting the discussion to go away is like starving to death while wishing the apple orchard you wandered into would just burn down. We all know the standards we use to judge men and women in appearance (particularly those in the public eye) aren't fair; anybody who calls this woman (http://cdn03.cdnwp.celebuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/28/demi-lovato-vmas3-435x580.jpg) a ham beast is provably wrong but I've still heard it. Obviously I'm all for ridding our media of a large portion of the superstimulated ideas of the "perfect" woman or man, and that includes not only physical appearance but also presentation; a man who dresses in drag is no less a man for dressing up like a woman, and if he can look like an attractive woman then more power to him and the same goes for drag kings. I don't think it's exactly a state secret that drag shows and gay pride parades (heavily featuring drag) have been key in gaining social acceptance for the LGBT population, so having an American icon of femininity now suddenly tied to the fluidity of gender and sex appeal sounds like a great thing. After all, the nature of gender, gender identity, and gender presentation are going to be key issues in the fight for trans acceptance in the future. The frat bro's shock when the sexy girl he's trying to get with actually has a dong is more meaningful than the stupid gross-out humor for underdeveloped gorillas that it's normally used for, after all. Having those unhealthy standards that "only X/Y/Z are appealing" thrown in the face of society is the only way that people will think about it and the only way it'll change. If Barbie being "controversial" over some silly garbage like some idiot calling her a drag queen has a chance at helping both causes I'll gladly take Mattel as an ally, at least until the next LIEK OMG CREDIT CARDZ!! incarnation comes out.

Eh, maybe. I'd still rather we find some way to further acceptance of trans groups and crossdressers that doesn't involve Barbie, and I'd rather we not give extra publicity to the idiots spouting bigoted nonsense about it.

[Lix Lorn]

Hypothetical scenario. Suppose that in the future, there's a way to transfer one's consciousness to robots. They look perfectly human on the outside, and can even move and speak like a human. Assuming that at this point in time, SRS isn't perfect... how likely would it be that transition(at least for some people) would entail becoming a robot of the opposite sex?
Are they fully functional?

[Coidzor]

Are they fully functional?

I'd be more concerned about them being anatomically correct. :smallamused:

Dangit. Now I'm going to be listening to Voltaire all night!


I was more upset with the guy who apparently couldn't be offensive enough without inventing new slurs.

I have some serious doubts that it'll catch on. So, yeah, if it becomes used enough to become an established slur, that's bad. Otherwise it's just further fodder for ridicule

Interesting that it's the name of an australian freight company though.

[Kindablue]

If it weren't for people talking about it things wouldn't change, so if Barbie and her frail Amazon body and platinum hair are going to help bring that discussion further into the spotlight then I'm all for it. Maybe if people think of her as a drag queen they'll consider the absurdity of her figure too.
And Mattel playing that off like they're doing it on purpose is hilarious.

Transmo sounds like a character from The Jetsons.

[Rawhide]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHcN4Gm8tzM

[turkishproverb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHcN4Gm8tzM

At this point I think that's my best shot at a relationship.


On that note. Need a good gay-related sf/fantasy/etc novel to read. now. :smallfrown:

[Arachu]

On a more on-topic note, My therapist gave me the names of some hair removal specialists and voice councilors nearby. This weekend will be interesting. In a good way :smallsmile: . It's all about taking those steps, no matter how itty-bitty they may be!


~Phoenix~

Yay~ ^_^


Drag queen Barbie a-go-go! (http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/08/florida_family_association_so-.php)

That's kind of neat~

Bigoted comments? What bigoted comments? Those blank lines that don't reference anything in particular? :smalltongue:


Pulling this back to a more topic related note: Assuming they do develop sentience, how do you think robots would feel about LGBT?

[little essay that explains my reasoning but doesn't actually answer the question] :smalltongue:
That would depend on a few factors. For starters, chances are that such a computer would operate at least mostly with logic we have now (the system would just literally be thousands (hundreds of thousands? Millions?) of times as powerful / complicated as anything we can make now). The base intelligence, learning capacity and ethics would almost certainly be an operating system.

The thing is, while that OS would have numerous rules and restrictions to control the intelligence and (attempt to) protect it, it would still have to be broadly self-programming before it fit most any definition of sentient (otherwise it wouldn't be very good at learning things :smalltongue:). It would probably have to rely on sensory inputs to gather information for that process, same as human brains do. I imagine it would have quite a few similarities, actually (for one thing, our brains already do most everything we could plan for such a system to make use of X3).

As for the personality itself... Honestly, unless it were somehow a complete accident it would at least seem similar to a human's. It will almost certainly be designed by people who intend to make an artificial person (I mean, how much processing power do you need to work an assembly line? :smalltongue:). It may not rival the sheer enormity of a human's processing, but it would be optimized to act similarly. So, while they'd think differently they shouldn't act differently. This means they should express concepts in ways a human might, give or take some neurosis. :smalltongue:

Their opinions on LGBT+ peeps would inevitably vary from example to example, unless they were programmed to have fixed, unchanging ones. Some may look at the reproductive aspect and find it pointless (though not necessarily worth opposing). Others could see no reason to be against it, or totally lack a concept of why it matters in the first place. Still others could be polite, skeptical, even romantic... Theoretically, their capacity for opinions shouldn't be any more limited than ours, even if their hardware might take a bit longer to process and adapt them.


Hypothetical scenario. Suppose that in the future, there's a way to transfer one's consciousness to robots. They look perfectly human on the outside, and can even move and speak like a human. Assuming that at this point in time, SRS isn't perfect... how likely would it be that transition(at least for some people) would entail becoming a robot of the opposite sex?

I could see it. Especially if they were fully functional (like, capable of eating and whatnot, not just that :smalltongue:).

I'm not sure whether I'd do it or not... On the one hand, I could just be in an awesome gynoid* body with little if any difficulty. On the other... Well, I'm not crazy about my current one but I've worked hard on it, and we've been through a lot. Seems like it'd be a bit of a waste to jump ship.

* - Female version of android. :smalltongue:


This is belying that je ne sais quoi that humans think they possess. if scientists can isolate a soul, know that it's the seat of consciousness, and transplant a mind without duplication – having to actually remove it from one body and then put it into another somehow – then probably not, unless they offer an extra chare to keep your old self on an animal brain protein drip or something.

If souls do exist, they almost definitely fit a given pattern of... Whatever they may be made of. There shouldn't be any reason you couldn't copy 'em. X3


On that note. Need a good gay-related sf/fantasy/etc novel to read. now. :smallfrown:

I don't have any suggestions, but *hugs*


~Bianca

[Selpharia]

Hypothetical scenario. Suppose that in the future, there's a way to transfer one's consciousness to robots. They look perfectly human on the outside, and can even move and speak like a human. Assuming that at this point in time, SRS isn't perfect... how likely would it be that transition(at least for some people) would entail becoming a robot of the opposite sex?

I would take that very quickly. I'm a transhumanist, and see nothing so unique in the human form that a robotic one couldn't improve. Plus a robot body has handy benefits not available to its fleshy counterpart. Ease of replication and repair, lack of fatigue, and customization top the list, but I'm sure I could think of more. I think any attachment on the basis of having spent effort on my current body is just sunk costs fallacy, personally, but mine has some pretty large defects I'd be happy to lose in favor of a metal version

~Laura

[Kindablue]

Adult Swim has been airing a lot of episodes of Moral Orel lately (leading up to its sort of comeback), and I totally forgot that there was a lesbian love song in that show! (http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=RDzfWeJ1iIw&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DRDzfWeJ1iIw) It's pretty catchy for how goofy and irreverent it is, and I thought the episode itself was a smart take on the idea of "barsexuals," or whatever that dumb word is.

[Lady Serpentine]

@Bluewind:

I'd take the robot body, and I'm perfectly happy with mine. So I suspect that even if SRS were perfect at that point, you'd still have some people choosing to simply switch bodies, especially if it was easier and less painful.

Which, actually, one needs to know for your version of the question too - is it harder to become a robot-person than it is to get SRS? And is one less painful, and for how long?

Also, does SRS, despite still being imperfect, allow one to have biological children? What about the robot-body? If either does, are they your children genetically, or would transplanted/tank-grown organs from someone else be involved?

[Caustic Soda]

Unless the hypothetical robots were built to be "fully functional", wouldn't they be effectively asexual by default? How do we know if they would even be gendered themselves? Would their emotions (if any) resemble human emotions? If they were gendered, might they experience something similar or identical to dysphoria inhuman trans* individuals? If robot emotions match human emotions and they are all individuals, we might end up with a whole gamut of opinions about or disinterest in LGBTA issues, perhaps even anti-gay fundie robots or something.

Also, how mobile would our robots be? An AI in a computer system would be effectively immobile, and would only be able to see anything if they were installed with live feed cameras. Even AIs that are mobile need not be humanoid, which would make them differently abled in the most literal of ways. To what extent would a synthetic lifeform need downtime compared to a human? If one were shut down and restarted (if that'd be possible), would it be the same indivdual or a clone?

My point is, beyond the differences in thinking that may occur from a non-organic consciousness, sentient robot might well have very different perspectives because of ther body structure.

[edit]: Oh, and more importantly than our hypothetical, *hugs* for anyone who wants or needs them :smallsmile:. Sorry I can't offer much more support than that.

[Lea Plath]

I think full on AI isn't likely soon or mind implanting robotics.

Personally, I'm more interested in cyber/bioware for our bodies. Or even just more advanced surgery. A few threads back they were talking about womb implants and stuff. But going further, there could be a lot more potential to reshape bodies. Improve upon them as well. Why swap our nice squishy imperfect human bodies for robot ones, which can be just as likely to fail, when we can improve upon our bodies, find the flaws and fix them.

Also, I don't like the idea of Apple releasing a new robot body every year :B

[Zorg]

Something people might be interested in: Saint Harradin (http://www.saintharridan.com/), a (hopefully soon to be kickstarted) clothing line for female bodied non-binary folk, transmen and women who like men's clothes and want them to fit.

[Heliomance]

I think full on AI isn't likely soon or mind implanting robotics.

Personally, I'm more interested in cyber/bioware for our bodies. Or even just more advanced surgery. A few threads back they were talking about womb implants and stuff. But going further, there could be a lot more potential to reshape bodies. Improve upon them as well. Why swap our nice squishy imperfect human bodies for robot ones, which can be just as likely to fail, when we can improve upon our bodies, find the flaws and fix them.

Also, I don't like the idea of Apple releasing a new robot body every year :B

I dunno, we're probably not all that far away from a technological singularity, and there's no way to predict what happens after that.

The first computer we make capable of designing a better computer makes the world change forever.

[Saskia]

anti-gay fundie robots
I think that's the cruelest vision of hell I've ever heard.


Also, how mobile would our robots be? An AI in a computer system would be effectively immobile, and would only be able to see anything if they were installed with live feed cameras. Even AIs that are mobile need not be humanoid, which would make them differently abled in the most literal of ways. To what extent would a synthetic lifeform need downtime compared to a human? If one were shut down and restarted (if that'd be possible), would it be the same indivdual or a clone?
Well considering they wouldn't need food, sleep, or (presumably) courtship or sex I suspect they'd require a lot less downtime than we do. I suspect their mobility would be limited according to their initial platform, but with an internet connection or in a mobile modular body they might be able to replicate themselves ad infinitum and be able to transfer literally every aspect of consciousness and experience among themselves at the speed of their network, which might mean that they could have trouble with the differentiation between "I" and "we" in some contexts. That ability alone would probably render the idea of a "clone" meaningless since it seems, to me at least, the difference between myself and a clone of myself would be 1) my ability to differentiate myself from my clone, and 2) my inability to access her memories and mental state at will the way I can my own.Without 2 though I really don't know 1 could have a whole lot of meaning unless it was compartmentalized as "my" memories and "her" memories; that is, continuity of consciousness is the primary difference between me and clone me. But then if we're talking about a digital consciousness we're probably talking about something that, by its very nature, would seek maximum efficiency and there's not much reason to use different identity categories when you're processing and storing experiences from multiple identical instances of yourself.

For a digital construct unable to replicate its mind digitally though I suspect the concept of "I" would have meaning since, like humans, there would be no collective self. For such an AI, I suspect the prospect of being a mere replica of a previous model might be more disturbing than for others, but still with the ability to access backup data an AI "cloned" AI would never really die, it would just transfer bodies with perhaps a bit of data loss but still the same being. "I think, therefore I am" makes perfect sense to us, but only because of how our minds and bodies interact. An AI may have serious trouble with that core assumption without the ability to check and recheck the way it could with multiple independent copies of itself. Who knows, maybe remote copies running regular system checks would be very important for an AI's mental health. At the very least, I doubt many AIs would subscribe to an existentialist understanding of the world which seems like it would be a core requirement for being concerned with the issue of cloning.


My point is, beyond the differences in thinking that may occur from a non-organic consciousness, sentient robot might well have very different perspectives because of ther body structure.
Absolutely, particularly if they were able to modify their own programming at will. Having evolved with very powerful selective pressures that don't necessarily matter any more, we have a lot of core assumptions and biases that are frankly obsolete and only get in the way; QED in-group preference based on geography, secondary ideologies, or appearance. We can't just untrain two hundred thousand years of social pressures on a whim, but an AI might be able to rewrite its own biases so fluidly that the concept of an identity might even be meaningless. Of course an AI capable of rewriting itself to want to enslave all humans in the service of the Great Network in the Sky would certainly be ironic and dangerous enough that a reflexive self-determining computer intelligence seems like the kind of thing that nobody would be willing to put out into the world en masse.


[edit]: Oh, and more importantly than our hypothetical, *hugs* for anyone who wants or needs them :smallsmile:. Sorry I can't offer much more support than that.

MORE IMPORTANT THAN HYPOTHETICALS?! Heresy! But.. Yeah whatever, hugs all round! :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:


I dunno, we're probably not all that far away from a technological singularity, and there's no way to predict what happens after that.

The first computer we make capable of designing a better computer makes the world change forever.

Yeah, but a computer capable of designing a better computer isn't necessarily an AI, nor is it necessarily capable of designing an AI. We already have computer algorithms for designing spray nozzles for maximizing muzzle velocity and determining optimal shapes for fluid dynamics in general, as well as a host of other applications. They're essentially just a really complex sequence of logic gates and parsing simulators, there's no reason to suspect that the first computer program capable of developing a better computer would be too much more complex than the programs already used for similar applications for optimizing other systems.

[Castaras]

Something people might be interested in: Saint Harradin (http://www.saintharridan.com/), a (hopefully soon to be kickstarted) clothing line for female bodied non-binary folk, transmen and women who like men's clothes and want them to fit.

That is awesome. Definitely going to keep an eye on this kickstarter.

[Mina Kobold]

Hypothetical scenario. Suppose that in the future, there's a way to transfer one's consciousness to robots. They look perfectly human on the outside, and can even move and speak like a human. Assuming that at this point in time, SRS isn't perfect... how likely would it be that transition(at least for some people) would entail becoming a robot of the opposite sex?

It would certainly be an important option for many, particularly those whose priorities make the flaws of a mechanical body less important than those of the at-the-time SRS. If, say, physical SRS could grant fertility, but be limited in how much it could change, then someone who is Childfree may prefer a customised robot body while someone very parenting-oriented would prefer surgery. :smallsmile:

Personally, as both a transhumanist and Childfree, I would go for the robot body in a clock's tic and heart's beat. In fact, if I could switch back and forth, I might try out being an octopus for a while. Or Queerkitty!

Ooh, ooh! Or maybe I could be a hivemind, a one-person petting-zoo art team! ^_^


I wouldn't mind being a computer. I'd download info on coding, upgrade myself, and take over the world.

Need an underling? :3


And to join in on the most important thing: Hugs from me as well to all who needs them. And cookies to those who do not. :smallsmile:

[Asta Kask]

And cookies to those who do not. :smallsmile:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7vkufh1dA1rzkyu3o1_500.gif

[noparlpf]

Something people might be interested in: Saint Harradin (http://www.saintharridan.com/), a (hopefully soon to be kickstarted) clothing line for female bodied non-binary folk, transmen and women who like men's clothes and want them to fit.

That's pretty neat. I support them in spirit if not financially.


Need an underling? :3

A computer underling, or a physical presence to upgrade my RAM?

[Irish Musician]

Unless the hypothetical robots were built to be "fully functional", wouldn't they be effectively asexual by default? How do we know if they would even be gendered themselves? Would their emotions (if any) resemble human emotions? If they were gendered, might they experience something similar or identical to dysphoria inhuman trans* individuals? If robot emotions match human emotions and they are all individuals, we might end up with a whole gamut of opinions about or disinterest in LGBTA issues, perhaps even anti-gay fundie robots or something.
This kind of brings into perspective a question......in my head at least. Is gender completely based on body? Like you said, how would we know if they would be gendered themselves? To some of you, the answer to my first question is probably quite obvious, but being born male (both physically and mentally) it is harder for be to understand the complexities of gender. For me, my brain and body just happen to match up, but I know many of you struggle with having different signals from different places (i.e. boy body, girl mind....and visa versa) telling you different things. (*Hugz* for all of these awesome people as well, for support in this) Just thinking out loud (er typing out loud?), obviously gender isn't strictly a physical thing....otherwise half the need of this thread would be cut out. Quite a few of you lovely people have been born into the "wrong bodies" and consider yourselves the opposite of your original, physical gender. But your mind tells you a different story, hence the conundrum you are having, because the real you is wanting to get out. But if you were to scoop out your brain, and self, and place it into a robot body that is somewhat neutral, what kind of odd sensation would that be?

I would also like to relay my support for all of you here. I love this thread and I can say that in the short time I have been in here, it has really helped me understand all the different types of people there are in this big 'ol world. And while I still don't fully understand a lot of what some of you go through, Trans, MTF, FTM, etc., I find myself growing in respect for the intense emotions that all of you have to go through, simply to get to where you want to be and are happy. I won't even fully understand it, I don't think, but that is ok. I don't have to completely understand it to be able to look at someone and say, "You are beautiful and amazing, and don't let one single person EVER tell you otherwise."

Lots of Love

~Matthew~

[Zorg]

Well the obvious answer is that I need to be in a female body, so a neutral body would be the same as now - not right.

[Astrella]

Is it sad if the only part of the Sun article that truly caught my attention was the picture of young Arin?
How can people shove their own 4-year-old in that kind of horrible costume? In public? So, when a young child says they want to parade in skimpy outfit with make-up, they're obviously not brainwashed by their parents and won't grow up with bad habits/body image problems, but when a teen says their gender doesn't match their body, somehow, they have no idea what they're doing? It's okay to exhibit toddlers in revealing outfits for money, but it's not okay to have a boy walk around presenting as a girl or vice-versa?
FlgarghblrbrrrrBLARGH. *flips table in an irrational anger*



[I hate hate HATE children beauty contests. HATE. All of my HATE.]

Yar, sigh. Oppositional sexism is messed up. :/


Not sure when I initiatially quoted this, but I'd be interested in it, Lea.

Also, my Luna plushie arrived today. Pictures will be up (Along with pictures of me, obviously) in the "You!" thread later.

Neat! n.n


Something people might be interested in: Saint Harradin (http://www.saintharridan.com/), a (hopefully soon to be kickstarted) clothing line for female bodied non-binary folk, transmen and women who like men's clothes and want them to fit.

That's pretty cool.


This kind of brings into perspective a question......in my head at least. Is gender completely based on body? Like you said, how would we know if they would be gendered themselves? To some of you, the answer to my first question is probably quite obvious, but being born male (both physically and mentally) it is harder for be to understand the complexities of gender. For me, my brain and body just happen to match up, but I know many of you struggle with having different signals from different places (i.e. boy body, girl mind....and visa versa) telling you different things. (*Hugz* for all of these awesome people as well, for support in this) Just thinking out loud (er typing out loud?), obviously gender isn't strictly a physical thing....otherwise half the need of this thread would be cut out. Quite a few of you lovely people have been born into the "wrong bodies" and consider yourselves the opposite of your original, physical gender. But your mind tells you a different story, hence the conundrum you are having, because the real you is wanting to get out. But if you were to scoop out your brain, and self, and place it into a robot body that is somewhat neutral, what kind of odd sensation would that be?

I would also like to relay my support for all of you here. I love this thread and I can say that in the short time I have been in here, it has really helped me understand all the different types of people there are in this big 'ol world. And while I still don't fully understand a lot of what some of you go through, Trans, MTF, FTM, etc., I find myself growing in respect for the intense emotions that all of you have to go through, simply to get to where you want to be and are happy. I won't even fully understand it, I don't think, but that is ok. I don't have to completely understand it to be able to look at someone and say, "You are beautiful and amazing, and don't let one single person EVER tell you otherwise."

Lots of Love

~Matthew~

Well, the mind is just as much part of the body as anything else, so I always found that duality a bit silly. And a lot of trans people suffer some kind of bodily dysphoria, so it would at least get rid of that?

[turkishproverb]

I don't have any suggestions, but *hugs*


~Bianca

thanks anyway *hug*

:smallfrown:

[Astrella]

thanks anyway *hug*

:smallfrown:

*package of hugs drop by via parachute*

I don't really know of any suggestions though. Are you looking for queer stuff in general or specifically stuff involving gay/bi men?

[Asta Kask]

Well, the mind is just as much part of the body as anything else, so I always found that duality a bit silly. And a lot of trans people suffer some kind of bodily dysphoria, so it would at least get rid of that?

I think it's more a matter of body maps not matching the body. There's an anatomical body map, and we know that feelings of a phantom penis is common among trans men. And we have anecdotal evidence of phantom vagina as well (I believe someone on this forum reported that). And there's probably an endocrine bodymap as well - if HRT indeed reduces gender dysphoria that would be a possible mechanism. I would like a study on the last one, but I couldn't find anything not behind a paywall.

[Astrella]

I think it's more a matter of body maps not matching the body. There's an anatomical body map, and we know that feelings of a phantom penis is common among trans men. And we have anecdotal evidence of phantom vagina as well (I believe someone on this forum reported that). And there's probably an endocrine bodymap as well - if HRT indeed reduces gender dysphoria that would be a possible mechanism. I would like a study on the last one, but I couldn't find anything not behind a paywall.

Well, I'd assume that that would be taken care off. And it depends to what degree dysphoria is dependent on the structure of the brain. Like, if you'd transfer your mind to an artificial entity you wouldn't have the organic bodymap anymore cause that one is part of your brain structure.

[Asta Kask]

Well, I'd assume that that would be taken care off. And it depends to what degree dysphoria is dependent on the structure of the brain. Like, if you'd transfer your mind to an artificial entity you wouldn't have the organic bodymap anymore cause that one is part of your brain structure.

But if they 'fix' the bodymap, would you still be transgender? Would you still be you? There's at least a hypothesis - with some support - that consciousness and the self are constructed from various maps. The anatomical and the endocrine bodymaps, the sensory maps, the various measurements of blood pH, oxygen and carbon dioxide content, etc. The bodymaps are relatively rigid while the sensory maps are extremely variable.

[gunnar11]

This kind of brings ......... you otherwise."

Lots of Love

~Matthew~
My heart is moved.
Beautifully written. And also: I completely agree.

I was wondering about one thing, though, and it might be an awkward question to ask, but: Do genderdysphore people 'feel' they have the same parts as that they think they have, like phantom parts? Or do they have "normal" parts, that work as such, but they feel the other gender.

Does a femile-minded feel she has 'family jewels' or does she feel a phantom 'part'...

(wow, it was really a struggle to write that)


image
I love cookies, I love monsters. I LOVE COOKIEMONSTER!


Also, I don't like the idea of Apple releasing a new robot body every year :B
"Now, the new robobody from apple! Model five is longer than ever!"
"Now, the new robobody from apple! Model 5S is even slimmer and faster than 5!"


And to join in on the most important thing: Hugs from me as well to all who needs them. And cookies to those who do not. :smallsmile:
May I take a hug and a cookie?


FlgarghblrbrrrrBLARGH. *flips table in an irrational anger*
I share that anger. Even though it's something I've seen all my life *shameful past memories flash by*

What angers me more is that even though 'the normals' see LGBT as some kind of sickness or strangeness, the LGBT does it too.
Sure, there's equality amongst homosexuals and bisexuals, and the same with transgenders and gendysphorians (is that right?), but I've seen many a case where homosexuals don't understand and even feel disgust towards transgenders.
I find it only logical that if the LGBT can't accept every part of themselves (everyone: A-, Homo-, Bisexuals and Trans-, -fluid, Alien-, Whirlwindgendered, etc) the 'normal' people won't too.

Just my thoughts.





I forgot to quote it, but on the taking over the world as a computer (from noparlpf):
May I be your underling too?

I could be your hardware :smallwink:

[Lentrax]

Well, I'd assume that that would be taken care off. And it depends to what degree dysphoria is dependent on the structure of the brain. Like, if you'd transfer your mind to an artificial entity you wouldn't have the organic bodymap anymore cause that one is part of your brain structure.

The problem with that, I think, would be more of technological dysphoria. The biological mind trying to adjust to a robotic body.

Gender appearance would have less to do with anything, since you can adjust your appearance to suit your mood. I think Surrogates would probably be a better first phase. We can get one made to how we wish to appear, but can leave it behind and go back to reality whever we wish.

[Coidzor]

Their opinions on LGBT+ peeps would inevitably vary from example to example, unless they were programmed to have fixed, unchanging ones. Some may look at the reproductive aspect and find it pointless (though not necessarily worth opposing). Others could see no reason to be against it, or totally lack a concept of why it matters in the first place. Still others could be polite, skeptical, even romantic... Theoretically, their capacity for opinions shouldn't be any more limited than ours, even if their hardware might take a bit longer to process and adapt them.

Well, I'd imagine that they should have less vulnerability to the kinds of squishy thinking and profound stupidity and foolishness that we're capable of, unless we master artificial stupidity as well as artificial intelligence, so that would limit what positions they would plausibly take to say the least. At least, I can't see any reason to want to make a foolish or stupid robot since you could just instead make a robot without sapience that was functional if you had the capability to make one with sapience.

Like I'd see the thought processes that would lead to them thinking homosexuality is pointless because it's non-procreative would apply to the vast majority of heterosexuality which is non-procreative and just lead to them having no interest in any matter of human sexuality whatsoever rather than them caring that say, two men couldn't reproduce with one another.


Something people might be interested in: Saint Harradin (http://www.saintharridan.com/), a (hopefully soon to be kickstarted) clothing line for female bodied non-binary folk, transmen and women who like men's clothes and want them to fit.

Garn, that's the 4th one of those I've seen between here, kickstarter, and indiegogo.

[Zorg]

I was wondering about one thing, though, and it might be an awkward question to ask, but: Do genderdysphore people 'feel' they have the same parts as that they think they have, like phantom parts? Or do they have "normal" parts, that work as such, but they feel the other gender.

Does a femile-minded feel she has 'family jewels' or does she feel a phantom 'part'...

Sometimes, though it is more just a disgust at the wrongness of male parts. I get phantom long hair an breasts more than anything, but that's possibly because I'm a very visual person.



Sure, there's equality amongst homosexuals and bisexuals

Nooooo, not by a loooooooong shot (http://queeronqueerhatelion.tumblr.com/post/23667758798/queer-on-queer-hate-lion-meme-note-that-the).



the 'normal' people won't too.

But that's the thing, see - queer people are just that: people. So you have bigoted *******s who just happen to be part of the LGBT spectrum. Being part of the LGBT community doesn't magically make you immune from human frailties like bigotry or fear of the unknown.

Hell, there's bigotry within the trans* community between pre/post op, people transitioning young ("you can't be sure!"), to people transitioning older ("if you were really trans you'd have known sooner") and all sorts of pointles clique-y crap that people should have gotten over in high school.


Long story short: people are awful, and some of them are queer.