Worst Prebuilt NPCs [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Sith_Happens

2012-10-25, 07:08 AM

So, reading this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259297) thread brought up a question that I thought would be good to spin off into its own thread.

Basically, I hear quite a bit about how the prebuilt/example NPCs in 3.5 books (don't know about PF) tend to not only be horribly built, but often flat-out don't work under the rules.

This thread is to post the most flagrant examples you can find of the above. What are some of the worst-built NPCs in 3.5, and especially which are the ones that are actually illegal?

Hirax

2012-10-25, 07:16 AM

Runestar

2012-10-25, 09:41 AM

Wizards apparently had this fetish of multi classing their npcs to the brink of sheer uselessness.

Off the top of my head,

Exemplars of evil - some dusk blade/ranger/cancer mage, fighter/wizard/blackguard, half-dragon fighter/sorc,

DMG2 - npc builds like fighter/sorc, rogue/monk

Dragons of eberron - half dragon fighter10/sorc10 (cr22?!?)

The various chosen of mystra. They are typically high lv spell casters, but tend to be diluted with lvs in other classes.

These are just the tip of the iceberg.

Axier

2012-10-25, 09:55 AM

Any kobold mook, because they are so poorly representative of the amazing glory that is the Dragonkin Hordes of the Tucker Warrens.

Also, totally early 5e playtesting and kinda out of thread, but did you see that +2 Battleaxe with the Dwarf equipped? Seriously, that Battleaxe needs to optimize itself better.

ahenobarbi

2012-10-25, 10:07 AM

Elminster could choose immunity to one spell from each level. For 9th level spell he chose Time Stop :smallconfused:

Gotterdammerung

2012-10-25, 10:27 AM

the dervish example doesnt have the required intelligence for combat expertise so the whole build falls apart. On top of that, the combat numbers listed for hit and dmg are all wrong (some of them too high some of them too low).

The knight protector in the same book could not qualify for the prestige class. It lists a dwarven pld 6/ knight 10. A lvl 6 dwarf full paladin does not have the feats needed to pick up the cleave, great cleave, power attack, and mounted combat prerequ feats. He would have to dip fighter or switch to human or use flaws or some other means to get the extra feat if he wanted to enter at 7th.

Telonius

2012-10-25, 11:02 AM

Okay, picking a random book ... let's see, Complete Warrior. Cavalier NPC on page 20. The build itself isn't technically illegal, but the numbers they provide just don't add up.

Strength 19 (+4), with Weapon Specialization (Lance) and weapon Specialization (Longsword). The statblock has him doing 1d8+6 damage with a +1 lance and 1d8+6 with a +1 longsword. The damage should be:

Lance (assuming he's wielding it 1handed mounted, since there's a heavy shield in his inventory): 1d8+4(Str)+1(enhancement)+2(specialization)=1d8 + 7

Longsword (again assuming 1handed): 1d8+4(Str)+1(enhancement)+2(specialization) = 1d8+7

His attack (to-hit) numbers don't take into account one the following: +1 bonus to Lances or Swords granted by the first two levels of Cavalier, or +1 from magic weapons.

His AC is listed as 24, with a dex of 14, +1 full plate, and a +1 heavy shield.
However, the AC should be:
10 + 8 (full plate) + 1 (magic) + 2 (shield)+1(magic) + 1 (max dex) = 23
So either they forgot Full Plate has a max dex, or forgot to note that it was mithral; but in either case they added in the magic bonuses even though the attack numbers seemed to all disregard magic bonuses.

... and that's on the third NPC of a randomly-selected book. I may have missed something on the first two.

Novawurmson

2012-10-25, 01:19 PM

Random book: Complete Divine:
Random prestige class: Contemplative

Takes Martial Weapon Proficiency: Battleaxe on a gnome cleric/contemplative.

Edit: Random book: Races of Destiny
Random prestige class: Chameleon

Human cleric with Int of 10 has two languages (and no ranks in Speak Language); feats include Dodge, Mobility, Stealthy, and Weapon Finesse (with a Dex of 13).

Kobold-Bard

2012-10-25, 01:26 PM

Not illegal (and it largely doesn't matter due to Divine Salient Abilities), but Moradin has 14 levels in Expert. WotC decided that the God of all Dwarves took an NPC class.

Sith_Happens

2012-10-25, 01:32 PM

Not illegal (and it largely doesn't matter due to Divine Salient Abilities), but Moradin has 14 levels in Expert. WotC decided that the God of all Dwarves took an NPC class.

Wow. Next dwarf I meet in-game I'm totally figuring out a way to rag on him about that.:smallbiggrin:

Boci

2012-10-25, 01:34 PM

Wizards apparently had this fetish of multi classing their npcs to the brink of sheer uselessness.

Off the top of my head,

Exemplars of evil - some dusk blade/ranger/cancer mage, fighter/wizard/blackguard, half-dragon fighter/sorc,

You know what's worse? Its ranger 3 / duskblade 2. Because we all know endurance is far superior to arcane channeling.

Novawurmson

2012-10-25, 01:41 PM

This is fun.

Random book: Complete Adventurer
Random prestige class: Dread Pirate

Does not qualify for the prestige class; class requires 8 ranks in appraise, while the maximum ranks he could have at level 5 as a bard 3/fighter 2 is 7 (as Appraise is a cross-class skill for Fighter).

Edit: He also can't have the prerequisite ranks in Profession (Sailor), as that's also not a class skill for the Fighter.

Edit: The Will save is also wrong. +3 (bard 3), +2 (Cha, Force of Personality), +1 (Dread Pirate 4), gives us +6 minimum; it's listed as +4 in the book. I am wrong. Thank you, eggs.

Apparently, I'm just wrong about this one. Bard 3/Fighter 2 with the feats selected is still terrible XD

Urpriest

2012-10-25, 01:44 PM

One thing I'll point out is how builds often end up being illegal, using dirgesinger as an example. The PHB defines your order of operations at level up, and it says you pick your class first, then feat(s), then skill ranks (there are other things, but the order of those 3 is what matters here). This means at 6th level, for instance, you can't use your 6th level feat to qualify for a PRC you're taking that level, because you need to pick the PRC before you pick up a new feat, and you can't use skill ranks picked up at 6th level to qualify for a feat.

In Libra Mortis, the sample dirgesinger is a bard5/dirgesinger2. But you can't get into dirgesinger at 6th level in this fashion, because dirgesinger requires the requiem feat, which requires 8 ranks in perform. Which means requiem would need to be taken at 6th level, which means you couldn't be a dirgesinger until level 7.

Actually, you pick skill ranks before feats. That said, this still doesn't work, because you don't get a feat at 5th level.

This is fun.

Random book: Complete Adventurer
Random prestige class: Dread Pirate

Does not qualify for the prestige class; class requires 8 ranks in appraise, while the maximum ranks he could have at level 5 as a bard 3/fighter 2 is 7 (as Appraise is a cross-class skill for Fighter).

Edit: He also can't have the prerequisite ranks in Profession (Sailor), as that's also not a class skill for the Fighter.

That's also not how max ranks work. Unless you mean he doesn't have high enough Intelligence?

eggs

2012-10-25, 01:50 PM

Remember when someone put a halfway-optimized Arcane Trickster that dipped both Spellthief and Rogue in Exemplars of Evil and big chunks of internet went up in arms about WotC caving to the big bad munchkinning roll-players?

Good times.

EDIT:

Edit: The Will save is also wrong. +3 (bard 3), +2 (Cha, Force of Personality), +1 (Dread Pirate 4), gives us +6 minimum; it's listed as +4 in the book.I don't think that's a mistake. FoP is a circumstantial bonus; it would be weird to put it into the base save.

Novawurmson

2012-10-25, 01:52 PM

That's also not how max ranks work. Unless you mean he doesn't have high enough Intelligence?

More of a PF person, so it's completely possible I have this wrong. IIRC:

Bard 1 - 4 ranks max
Bard 2 - 5 ranks max
Bard 3 - 6 ranks max
Fighter 1 - 6 ranks max (1/2 CC level, rounded down)
Fighter 2 - 7 ranks max (1/2 CC level, rounded down, costs 2 skill points).

Yes? No?

Boci

2012-10-25, 01:56 PM

navar100

2012-10-25, 01:59 PM

Tome of Battle - example 5th level NPC warblade. Has two stances, one is 3rd level. RAW, warblades get second stance at 4th level, too early for a 3rd level stance.

Novawurmson

2012-10-25, 01:59 PM

No. Once a skill has been a class skill, it will always be a class skill in reguards to max ranks. But you are right that the fighter will be paying 2 skill points per rank purchased.

You learn something new every day. I think he qualifies as he gets 4 ranks for each level of fighter (Int of 13, human bonus rank).

I never really did understand the cross class/class skill system when I played 3.5.

toapat

2012-10-25, 01:59 PM

T.G. Oskar

2012-10-25, 02:01 PM

More of a PF person, so it's completely possible I have this wrong. IIRC:

Bard 1 - 4 ranks max
Bard 2 - 5 ranks max
Bard 3 - 6 ranks max
Fighter 1 - 6 ranks max (1/2 CC level, rounded down)
Fighter 2 - 7 ranks max (1/2 CC level, rounded down, costs 2 skill points).

Yes? No?

Actually it should be:
Bard 1 - 4 ranks max
Bard 2 - 5 ranks max
Bard 3 - 6 ranks max
Fighter 1 - 7 ranks max (1 skill point = 2 skill levels)
Fighter 2 - 8 ranks max (1 skill point = 2 skill levels)

This link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm) puts it better. The relevant part is as follows: "Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level + 3."

Boci

2012-10-25, 02:04 PM

You learn something new every day. I think he qualifies as he gets 4 ranks for each level of fighter (Int of 13, human bonus rank).

I never really did understand the cross class/class skill system when I played 3.5.

Took me a fair while to learn it myself. I've always felt PF fans give the system a bit more credit than its worth, but I gotta aknowledge that their simplification of class and CC skills works very well.

Venger

2012-10-25, 02:46 PM

You learn something new every day. I think he qualifies as he gets 4 ranks for each level of fighter (Int of 13, human bonus rank).

I never really did understand the cross class/class skill system when I played 3.5.

it is involved, but not super complicated. basically, it works like this:

if something is a class skill for you now, then you pay 1 point per rank, and your cap is your level + 3. let's use bluff as our example. Malsaern the Enlightened starts out as a rogue (like he should, to get more skill points at level 1) and takes some points in bluff. at level 1, his cap is 4, and those 4 ranks cost him 4 points. everything's groovy.

if you leave that class and go into one that does not have bluff (such as a cleric without the trickery domain) your cap remains the same (if something is or ever was a class skill for you, the cap is always at your level + 3) but you now pay 2 points per rank. malsaern wants to keep maxing bluff so he can get into ur-priest on time, but now has to pay 2 points for that 1 rank. he now has 5 points in bluff as of level 2.

due to stuff costing double, it is also possible to buy half-ranks in skills. this means that if malsaern needed to buy points in other stuff for ur-priest as well (he does) and ran out of room for bluff due to not allocating enough points to intelligence, having only 1 spare left over, he could add a half-rank at level 3.

this means he'd pay 1 skill point, but since the conversion rate is doubled since it's not a class skill for cleric, he only gets 0.5 ranks in return. when you have a decimal rank, you round down for the purpose of rolls. half-ranks do allow you to make trained only rolls, and are not restricted as to what skills they can be applied to, so if you wanted to take a spare skill point you didn't know what to do with, chop it in half and put 0.5 into Forgery and 0.5 into Lucid Dreaming, you could if you really wanted to.

so malsaern spends 1 point on bluff at level 3, but gets .5 in return. he is now at 5.5 ranks for bluff, with a cap of 6.

if something is not a class skill for you, your cap is (your character level +3) /2. so at level 3 for malsaern, it's 3 for, say, knowledge (underwater basketweaving). skill ranks also still cost double for cross-class skills that were never class skills. these are the skills it's hardest to get points in, and prevents people from taking fun prcs.

there is a silver lining to this dark cloud. able learner, from races of destiny will allow cross-class skills to be bought at only 1 point per rank. this is pretty darn huge, and means a character with able learner and a factotum dip can take any skills they like forever at-cost. some tables houserule that everybody has able learner to make it easier for people to qualify for fun offbeat prcs. I've tried it and it's hardly a game-breaker, and due to the cap still being in place with able learner, it doesn't invalidate skillmonkey types. the feat's human or doppleganger only and 1st lvl only, but talk to your DM. it's widely agreed that not including changeling was a simple typographical error.

as far as my illegal prebuilt NPC goes, well, you've probably guessed it by now, it's good old Malsaern the Enlightened, the sample ur-priest from complete divine. what's most frustrating about him, aside from his horrible build, is that he easily could have actually met the draconian prerequisites to ur-priest due to having a level in rogue, which gives him bluff as a class skill, and enough skill points to buy a few CC ranks in the 3 knowledges he needs, none of which are on the rogue's list, and a cleric without a good int bonus (like malsaern, rockin' a 12) does not have enough points to consistently max fast enough to qualify for ur-priest on time.

now, as far as his buiid goes, as mentioned, sample NPCs only have feats from the PHB and whatever splat they are released in, so I'm not going to bother to complain about his weapon focus (though it is with the morningstar, which is an absolutely brilliant reference given the class) and honestly, divine spell power is a step up from the kind of feats most sample NPCs have.

what bugs me the most (aside from him actually taking cleric to get into ur-priest, and failing to take trickery domain to get bluff as a class skill) is that he takes his cleric levels first. take the class with the most skill points first! he would've had almost enough to actually qualify for the class if he'd done that.

I find ur-priest the most egregious violation, personally. mainly because it's so simple to qualify for. I understand if something like ardent dilettante, trapsmith, dungeon delver, or some other thing with fifty zillion skill ranks required isn't properly qualified for, but ur-priest is comparatively simple.

Menteith

2012-10-25, 03:13 PM

Animastryfe

2012-10-25, 04:20 PM

Elminster could choose immunity to one spell from each level. For 9th level spell he chose Time Stop :smallconfused:
I am very new to DnD. Why would this be a bad choice?

Boci

2012-10-25, 04:25 PM

I am very new to DnD. Why would this be a bad choice?

Its a headache trying to figure out how it works. In previous editions time stop drastically slowed down time in a radius origionating from the catser. This makes it fairly clear how you are immune, you ignore any affects the spell has on you. In 3rd edition, the spell grants 1d4+1 rounds of apparrant time. So how are you immune to a spell that buffs the caster?

eggs

2012-10-25, 04:27 PM

I am very new to DnD. Why would this be a bad choice?
Time Stop isn't a harmful spell. It's one of the most desirable spell effects in 3e, and can only be cast on oneself.

Essentially, he's using an ability that could give him immunity to some of the scariest abilities there are in order to prevent himself from using one of the most beneficial self-affecting spells there is.

I kind of suspect that it's a holdover from an edition where Time Stop had more offensive applications.

Starbuck_II

2012-10-25, 04:33 PM

Time Stop isn't a harmful spell. It's one of the most desirable spell effects in 3e, and can only be cast on oneself.

Essentially, he's using an ability that could give him immunity to some of the scariest abilities there are in order to prevent himself from using one of the most beneficial self-affecting spells there is.

I kind of suspect that it's a holdover from an edition where Time Stop had more offensive applications.

I assume the RAI reason is to be immune to others using Time Stop (being immune to stop stop in 2E let you act during a Time Stop). This useage is common in 2E game Buldar's Gate like Demogorgon (however you spell) and some other enemies were immune to its effects.

Time Stop in 2E alowed you to auto-hit enemies during a T' Stop. So Mindflayers with Time Stop were deadly (auto-hit tentacles to suck brain...)

Runestar

2012-10-25, 07:43 PM

I am very new to DnD. Why would this be a bad choice?

By the rules, it wouldn't work, since time stop is neither an offensive spell nor allows for sr.

Probably a holdover from 2e where rules could be more liberally interpreted. :smalltongue:

docnessuno

2012-10-25, 08:02 PM

I assume the RAI reason is to be immune to others using Time Stop (being immune to stop stop in 2E let you act during a Time Stop). This useage is common in 2E game Buldar's Gate like Demogorgon (however you spell) and some other enemies were immune to its effects.

Time Stop in 2E alowed you to auto-hit enemies during a T' Stop. So Mindflayers with Time Stop were deadly (auto-hit tentacles to suck brain...)

Well, thst reminds me of one of the most successful tabletop groups i had, were we used to joke about El's timestop immunity all the times.
Even considering RAI immunity (ability to act during other people's timestops), considering the number of high level arcane spellcsters in Faerun, thast meant that El would see the whole wold freezing several times/day.
One of the best/worst mental image that originate from that was a timestop cast somewhere while El was... intimate with La Simbul.

RandomLunatic

2012-10-25, 08:37 PM

If we are ragging on Forgotten Realms, let us not forget one of the iconics: Drizz't Do'Urden.

His write-up in the FRCS book is a perfect demonstration of how not to build a melee character in 3.0. I am going off of memory here, but as an ECL 19 character, he has an Ac around 20 and his full attack is something like +17/+12/+7 for 1d6+6, with an off-hand of +15/+10 for 1d6+4 + 1d6 Frost. Also, he has the full Spring Attack tree, which meshes oh-so-well with TWF. I think about the only mistake he does not make is taking Toughness.

Eugenides

2012-10-25, 08:40 PM

Boci

2012-10-25, 08:43 PM

Telonius

2012-10-25, 09:10 PM

I don't remember where it was, I think it's one of the Complete Series, but there was an NPC that had a crit-range of 12-20.

The only way I could figure he got that was from his Keen rapier stacking with his improved critical feat that he took, except for the part where they specifically don't stack.

Technically, that threat range could have happened in 3.0, but would have required Disciple of Dispater, a rapier, and the Improved Critical feat.

Venger

2012-10-25, 09:20 PM

Technically, that threat range could have happened in 3.0, but would have required Disciple of Dispater, a rapier, and the Improved Critical feat.

disciple of dispater, along with all the other prcs in bovd, lack sample builds, so it couldn't have been any of them.

Zancloufer

2012-10-25, 09:29 PM

Technically, that threat range could have happened in 3.0, but would have required Disciple of Dispater, a rapier, and the Improved Critical feat.

3.0 has both Keen and Improved Critical stacking. 18-20 is the Rapiers base range, either would increase it to 15-20 (+100%) and the other +100% would drop it to 12-20.

toapat

2012-10-25, 09:36 PM

3.0 has both Keen and Improved Critical stacking. 18-20 is the Rapiers base range, either would increase it to 15-20 (+100%) and the other +100% would drop it to 12-20.

the disciple PrC would drop that to 3-20

Krosta

2012-10-25, 10:19 PM

toapat

2012-10-25, 10:48 PM

Starbuck_II

2012-10-25, 10:50 PM

Runestar

2012-10-25, 10:59 PM

The Simbul is a powerful spellcaster that, after 20 levels of sorceress and 2 levels of archmage, somehow decided that 10 levels of wizard were a cool way to progress her character. :smallbiggrin:
According to the description, she used wish to obtain many silly perks, but she never thought it was a good idea to slap some inherent bonus on top of her pathetic charisma score (still 20 after 32 levels :smallconfused:).

Not only that, but her apprentices are all multiclassed wizard/sorcs. :smallsigh:

I suppose now that the ultimate magus prc has been released, they could finally be optimised some. :smallamused:

If you have lords of darkness, the princes of shade also have this "multiclassed to uselessness" syndrome, with many being split fighter/sorcs. Granted, this was before 3.5's mystic theurge and eldritch knight.

Drow / Fighter 10 / Barbarian 1 / Ranger 5 (CR: 18, AC: 23 (T:14, FF:19)). Str 13, Dex 20, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 14. He doesn't however have the spring attack tree.

To be fair, that was more or less an accurate representation of his training, though I find it hard to believe that a 10th lv fighter could possibly have been the 'melee master' of the Underdark. Drizzt was also screwed by the stingy npc wealth guidelines, saddling him with anaemic gear, and TWF'ing generally sucking in 3e.

Now, with access to more splatbooks, it may just be easier to rebuild him as a warblade.

Which brings me to tome of battle's sample npcs. Why the designers felt that the best to showcase the prcs' prowess was to use non-martial adept classes as a base baffles me to this day. For eternal blade would be perfect to tack on top of an existing warblade10 or crusader10 build, yet they chose to use fighter lvs instead (and burn several feats to martial study?) :smallconfused:

Arcanist

2012-10-25, 10:59 PM

The Simbul is a powerful spellcaster that, after 20 levels of sorceress and 2 levels of archmage, somehow decided that 10 levels of wizard were a cool way to progress her character. :smallbiggrin:
According to the description, she used wish to obtain many silly perks, but she never thought it was a good idea to slap some inherent bonus on top of her pathetic charisma score (still 20 after 32 levels :smallconfused:).

Whenever I DM and run the Simbul, I just re-stat her out as a 5rd level Wizard/ Sorcerer/5 Ultimate Magus/17 Archmage/5

And Elminster should friken have the Initiate of Mystra feat for god sakes. I'd offer to replace those damned levels in fighter and Rogue for 3 levels of Warblade, but their is no justification as a fan of Realm lore that I can possible conjure up that would warrant him having access to the Sublime Way :smallannoyed:

Seriously, I think we should just give WoTC a mulligan on some of their NPC stats, Especially Ioulaum, Telemont and Larloch. Seriously, I look at their "stats" and then I look at this stating out of Karsus (http://community.wizards.com/cheyne_daak/blog/2009/09/09/stats_for_karsus) and think to myself "What the hell? Why couldn't someone else grasp the true essence of the character?"

I'll end this rant here, because I'm sure nobody wants to see my entire rant on how disappointed I was and the changes I'd make and all that stuff, but honestly? I think you as a reader are probably tired of my whining so eh :smallsigh:

EDIT: Looking back on some things, I'd say that some of the Ancient Netherese would be considered Theurges of sorts :smallconfused:

EDIT of an EDIT: YEP! A lot of the NPC in the realm are just plain horrible in their level of optimization... I'm tempted to start a homebrew restating out of the Forgotten Realms NPC... Seriously... It's like WoTC have for the last 12 years constantly betrayed their entire fan base with endless crap... :smallannoyed:

123456789blaaa

2012-10-26, 06:23 AM

Whenever I DM and run the Simbul, I just re-stat her out as a 5rd level Wizard/ Sorcerer/5 Ultimate Magus/17 Archmage/5

And Elminster should friken have the Initiate of Mystra feat for god sakes. I'd offer to replace those damned levels in fighter and Rogue for 3 levels of Warblade, but their is no justification as a fan of Realm lore that I can possible conjure up that would warrant him having access to the Sublime Way :smallannoyed:

Seriously, I think we should just give WoTC a mulligan on some of their NPC stats, Especially Ioulaum, Telemont and Larloch. Seriously, I look at their "stats" and then I look at this stating out of Karsus (http://community.wizards.com/cheyne_daak/blog/2009/09/09/stats_for_karsus) and think to myself "What the hell? Why couldn't someone else grasp the true essence of the character?"

I'll end this rant here, because I'm sure nobody wants to see my entire rant on how disappointed I was and the changes I'd make and all that stuff, but honestly? I think you as a reader are probably tired of my whining so eh :smallsigh:

EDIT: Looking back on some things, I'd say that some of the Ancient Netherese would be considered Theurges of sorts :smallconfused:

EDIT of an EDIT: YEP! A lot of the NPC in the realm are just plain horrible in their level of optimization... I'm tempted to start a homebrew restating out of the Forgotten Realms NPC... Seriously... It's like WoTC have for the last 12 years constantly betrayed their entire fan base with endless crap... :smallannoyed:

Refluff Refluff Refluff.

Kazyan

2012-10-26, 06:31 AM

to call that Cha anything less then disgraceful at any sorcerer over lvl 5 is to lie through the teeth.

Oh come on; don't exaggerate. You can afford, like, a +2 Cloak at level 7; the rest of that is going to things like a +2 Amulet of I-Have-a-d4-Hit-Die and other standard magic items. If your best roll/PB was a 17 and you don't want to deal with the atrocious Con penalty that comes with every LA+0 +Cha race except the Lesser Aasimar (which may not have been intended), you'll wind up with a 20 in Cha at level 7.

Telonius

2012-10-26, 06:39 AM

The Shackled City adventure path had some pretty egregiously bad builds. Nothing illegal (at least that I can recall), but I had to re-stat something like 80% of the named baddies just to offer any kind of a challenge to my party.

Krosta

2012-10-26, 06:47 AM

It's important to consider that the Simbul traditionally doesn't have any equipment. The guy who statted her couldn't use magic items to increase her stats.
But, in her description, is noted that he is somehow treated as if she was wearing some magic items, even if she is going around almost naked. Then she must have some way to achieve this effect (but right now I can't say how), and she could have used it more. :smallmad:
And it's still silly that the one of the daughters of the freakin' goddes of magic have the same charisma every 10th level sorcerer sports in almost every street corner (being the Realms we are speaking about), magic items or not. :smallfrown:

Sith_Happens

2012-10-26, 08:50 AM

I'd offer to replace those damned levels in fighter and Rogue for 3 levels of Warblade,

The fighter, rogue, and cleric levels are all due to his background, the only problem was that Mystic Theurge didn't exist yet when they statted him so he's missing out on ten perfectly good levels of cleric casting.:smallsigh:

but their is no justification as a fan of Realm lore that I can possible conjure up that would warrant him having access to the Sublime Way :smallannoyed:

O rly? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070911)

Blue Lantern

2012-10-26, 09:19 AM

Arcanist

2012-10-26, 09:28 AM

Refluff Refluff Refluff.

Don't have to. Figured I could use Swordsage or something like that.

The fighter, rogue, and cleric levels are all due to his background, the only problem was that Mystic Theurge didn't exist yet when they statted him so he's missing out on ten perfectly good levels of cleric casting.:smallsigh:

I'm familiar with Elminster's background, however they can easily be fluffed away into something a little more optimal. I'm sure that if Greenwood saw this thread he would have my balls on a pike for changing him, but eh... Most definitely would stat Elminster as a Mystic Theurge and thanks to that link, I figure I can use Swordsage as well.

Off the top of my head Elminster looks like a:

Swordsage/3 Cleric/3 Wizard/3 Mystic Theurge/16 Archmage/5 Jade Phoenix Mage (refluffed)/5

Doesn't get 9th level Initiating (stuck at an Initator level of 16), but he sure as hell gets 9th level Divine and Arcane :smallamused:

For feats, I'm kind of nixed, but off the top of my head he'd have Epic Spellcasting (Duh), Arcane Strike, Initiate of Mystra an assortment of metamagics, Improved Toughness, Spell focus (Evocation & Enchantment) and 5 Item creation feats (one of which being Epic most likely being Epic Craft Wondrous Items).

Yeah... I might just restat out the Faerun NPCs to be more fluff loyal and optimized because for Christ sake, most of them don't have prestige classes (except for Archmage).

On a side note: I just noticed that they don't have the excuse of not using Mystic Theurge... It was in the same book as Archmage... :smallannoyed: what in the actual ****?

Wow really, all this rage because the official NPC are not optimized, Wow.

Not so much rage as it is sheer annoyance. When you're running around with titles like "Sage of Shadowdale" I except you to be able to rip any character I'd dream of making into cosmic dust before I even have a chance to step up to you. Hell Manshoon is even more disappointing once you take a look at him... :smallannoyed: Hell, Szass Tam could have access to the Arcane Transfiguration tree due to how long he's been working with Larloch and on that note Larloch could have friken levels in Dungeon Lord (of the Warlock's Crypt) with Szass Tam as his Cohort (would totally make sense seeing as how Szass is Larloch's *****, but then again when you're as old and as well versed in the Art as Larloch, everything pretty much is :smalltongue:)

Boci

2012-10-26, 09:31 AM

On a side note: I just noticed that they don't have the excuse of not using Mystic Theurge... It was in the same book as Archmage... :smallannoyed: what in the actual ****?

The MT did not exist in 3.0 IIRC.

Arcanist

2012-10-26, 09:41 AM

The MT did not exist in 3.0 IIRC.

Yep, your right, it was added in the 3.5 revision of it. (which according Wikipedia was added at the same time as Archmage... I'm confused now...) :smallconfused:

Boci

2012-10-26, 09:49 AM

Yep, your right, it was added in the 3.5 revision of it. (which according Wikipedia was added at the same time as Archmage... I'm confused now...) :smallconfused:

Either wikipedia was wrong, or archmage was added in a 3.0 splat book and only became core in the 3.5 revision.

Arcanist

2012-10-26, 09:56 AM

Either wikipedia was wrong, or archmage was added in a 3.0 splat book and only became core in the 3.5 revision.

Yep, right again. It appears in the FR Campaign Setting :smallsmile:

Zherog

2012-10-26, 09:57 AM

I believe archmage was in one of the FR books (maybe even FRCS) and ported into 3.5's DMG during the conversion.

edit: damn dirty ninjas...

Alabenson

2012-10-26, 01:06 PM

Justicar doesn't meet the skill pre-reqs in time.

Enlightened Spirit is a Lawful Good Warlock (either an oversight or explicit evidence that base classes aren't bound by alignment restrictions after character creation).

To be fair, while CA does say a Warlock has to start as chaotic or evil, there's nothing in the class that indicates you have to stay that way. Therefore, by RAW there's nothing stopping you from changing your Warlock's alignment to whatever you feel like after character creation.

T.G. Oskar

2012-10-26, 01:11 PM

And Elminster should friken have the Initiate of Mystra feat for god sakes. I'd offer to replace those damned levels in fighter and Rogue for 3 levels of Warblade, but their is no justification as a fan of Realm lore that I can possible conjure up that would warrant him having access to the Sublime Way :smallannoyed:

Seriously, I think we should just give WoTC a mulligan on some of their NPC stats, Especially Ioulaum, Telemont and Larloch. Seriously, I look at their "stats" and then I look at this stating out of Karsus (http://community.wizards.com/cheyne_daak/blog/2009/09/09/stats_for_karsus) and think to myself "What the hell? Why couldn't someone else grasp the true essence of the character?"

I'll end this rant here, because I'm sure nobody wants to see my entire rant on how disappointed I was and the changes I'd make and all that stuff, but honestly? I think you as a reader are probably tired of my whining so eh :smallsigh:

EDIT of an EDIT: YEP! A lot of the NPC in the realm are just plain horrible in their level of optimization... I'm tempted to start a homebrew restating out of the Forgotten Realms NPC... Seriously... It's like WoTC have for the last 12 years constantly betrayed their entire fan base with endless crap... :smallannoyed:

That's...a pretty serious accusation. IMO, completely unfounded.

I can expect that WotC has a combination of "doesn't understand its own game" and "plays a different game than the rest of the tables", but insisting on sabotage on their example NPCs goes a bit too far.

Now, I'm not a fan of FR (I prefer Eberron myself). I have problems with the various NPCs (particularly Drizzt "good Drow poster-boy" Do'Urden and Elminster the walking deus-ex-machina), but some of the choices are pretty reasonable. Elminster was built as an NPC on 3rd Edition, when PrCs were scarce. They tried to explain his time as a brigand with the few levels of Fighter and Rogue, but he's a spellcaster first and foremost. His choice of spells aren't made to be optimized, but rather made to follow Greenwood's stories. Both WotC and Greenwood are bound by the boundaries (forgive my redundancy) of the stories and the game mechanics. You can do some minimal changes that can make sense (doesn't he has one level of Rogue? Why not change Fighter 3/Rogue 1 into Fighter 2/Rogue 2), but expecting him to suddenly learn Iron Heart when those are mentioned to be extraordinary disciplines before he was even touched by Mystra completely defies all sense. That's where the accusations of "darned optimizers, ruining the fun of us roleplayers" emerge (even if Elminster SHOULD be optimized respecting the boundaries imposed by the game and Mr. Greenwood's stories).

The "multiclassing into oblivion" syndrome is another problem, though. WotC honestly believes that a Fighter 10/Sorcerer 10 is as strong as a Sorcerer 20 (it is stronger than a Fighter 20, though). Boundaries there are a bit looser, and one can play a bit better. However, suddenly expecting that schools of martial arts meant to be rare are all of a sudden commonplace is...at best, absurd. I can expect that some of the commanders might have levels in Warblade or Swordsage, but having ALL of them perfectly optimized? Gentlemen, unless you're willing to change the game in the name of increased difficulty, it's best to respect the boundaries and not expect the developers to optimize just about everything so that people are forced even MORE to bring up their game. I don't wish to fall into Stormwind Fallacy, but hey, there's more classes out there than the martial adepts. There's so much you can refluff before you have purists decry that you've basically ruined the setting, particularly one such as the FRs that has its lore written in stone (a reason I prefer Eberron, because it has looser lore than FR and is easier to refluff).

Venger

2012-10-26, 01:20 PM

Wow really, all this rage because the official NPC are not optimized, Wow.

I don't know about optimization, but I recall the infamous Abjurant Champion bonus to AC given to Mage Armour in the PrC example.

it wasn't so much that people were upset that the sample character, elven cary elwes had the 5 from abjurant armor in his statblock. sample npcs are always wrong.

what people got upset about was that in the rules text for the actual abjurant armor ability it said you can use it on mage armor, which shows a profound lack of caring about the rules of this game. it takes very little time to see that mage armor is a conjuration spell, and thus not affected by abjurant armor.

To be fair, while CA does say a Warlock has to start as chaotic or evil, there's nothing in the class that indicates you have to stay that way. Therefore, by RAW there's nothing stopping you from changing your Warlock's alignment to whatever you feel like after character creation.

warlock doesn't require evil, any nonlawful or nongood will get you in there.

almost all classes/prcs that have an alignment req have this true of them though. there's no such thing as an "ex-rainbow servant" or "ex-ninja spy" so alignment, again, doesn't really matter that much

navar100

2012-10-26, 02:39 PM

Which brings me to tome of battle's sample npcs. Why the designers felt that the best to showcase the prcs' prowess was to use non-martial adept classes as a base baffles me to this day. For eternal blade would be perfect to tack on top of an existing warblade10 or crusader10 build, yet they chose to use fighter lvs instead (and burn several feats to martial study?) :smallconfused:

Perhaps they were trying to emphasize with a wet noodle that the book could be used with the PHB classes. You didn't have to be a crusader/warblade/swordsage to use the book, including the prestige classes.

Mystral

2012-10-26, 02:41 PM

Let's forget about the really famous guys and take a look at the more unknown forgotten realms NPCs. I'll go trough the Campaign Setting and take Notes as I move trough. I'll ignore anything epic.

Hadrhune: Seems powerfull enough, but hey, it's a wizard, so what do you expect. One thing of note is that he has NO INT-BOOSTING ITEM WHATSOEVER.

Alusair Obarskyr: Our beloved upper class twit of cormyr, Alusair sports a vorpal longsword +3 at level 10. That alone is worth 2,5 the allowed wealth of a pc of her level. Not that it's going to do her any good, because she DOES NOT HAVE POWER ATTACK. Her build seems to be focused around mounted combat, but she has no lance. There is also a mithral dwarven full plate in her posessions, which strikes me as odd, as the dwarven plate in the SRD is made out of ADAMANTINE. Her AC seems wrong. It should be 10+9 (Full plate) +4 (+2 large shield) +3 (Dex) +3 (Ring of Protection)=29, not 28 as stated in her stat block. Oh, and she has 4 magic rings. Bling bling.

Caladnei:Sorcerer/Fighter with a very, very weak try at being a gish. Has some usefull gish spells (Stoneskin, Enervation, Teleport, Displacement, Fly to name a few) but she sadly suffers from longsworditis like most good npcs seem to do. Doing 1d8+5 damage at CR 15 is not even sad anymore. Of course, not even power attack (doesn't qualify with 12 strength, too) No item boosting charisma. She is also able to cast fly and sports winged boots, so that's a good use of her money.

Jezz the Lame: Amazingly enough, his name is his game. The good: His spells and rogue abilities synergise well (no fireball there) and although I'd question his use of a kukri (a short sword would serve him just as well) it kind of works as a skill user. The bad: Has a spell called change self, I'm guessing they mean disguise self. His rogue hit dice are listed as d4, too, and he has a con of 10 (Elf, yo). So he has a pathetic 34 hit points! He wouldn't even survive a stern look from a Party for which he'd be an epic challenge.

Arrrk:Is missing one feat (should have 5, 3 from having 8 HD, 2 from 2 levels of fighter), but at least he has power attack and uses a greatsword. (It's spell storing, but I have no idea how he gets the spells in there in the first place). His attack bonus is of, it should be +14, not +12. AC should be 20. He seems to be competent at what he does, though and could easily outdamage and outtank upper class twit up there.

Blue Lantern

2012-10-26, 02:54 PM

Now, I'm not a fan of FR (I prefer Eberron myself). I have problems with the various NPCs (particularly Drizzt "good Drow poster-boy" Do'Urden and Elminster the walking deus-ex-machina), but some of the choices are pretty reasonable. Elminster was built as an NPC on 3rd Edition, when PrCs were scarce. They tried to explain his time as a brigand with the few levels of Fighter and Rogue, but he's a spellcaster first and foremost. His choice of spells aren't made to be optimized, but rather made to follow Greenwood's stories. Both WotC and Greenwood are bound by the boundaries (forgive my redundancy) of the stories and the game mechanics. You can do some minimal changes that can make sense (doesn't he has one level of Rogue? Why not change Fighter 3/Rogue 1 into Fighter 2/Rogue 2), but expecting him to suddenly learn Iron Heart when those are mentioned to be extraordinary disciplines before he was even touched by Mystra completely defies all sense. That's where the accusations of "darned optimizers, ruining the fun of us roleplayers" emerge (even if Elminster SHOULD be optimized respecting the boundaries imposed by the game and Mr. Greenwood's stories).

I agree on almost all your argument exept the bolded part.
Why? Why people can not accept that the game as designed, as reflected by all those NPC around, was not meant around heavy, or even basic I guess, optimization, maybe for incompetence or maybe because they put more importance on fluff, most likely both.
I mean no offence to anyone, it is just that I can not wrap my head about this behaviour.

Boci

2012-10-26, 02:58 PM

Zherog

2012-10-26, 03:11 PM

The bad: Has a spell called change self, I'm guessing they mean disguise self.

No, they meant change self - which is what the spell was named in 3.0 (and it also was mechanically different).

Dusk Eclipse

2012-10-26, 03:13 PM

Lord Robilar was stated as a level 24 fighter.... W.T.F?

Mystral

2012-10-26, 03:15 PM

Sharbuti Shanardanda: Monk that uses a bastard sword. Twohanded, without power attack. 62 HP, AC 20 and no other defenses at CR 13. No synergie with his few sorcerer spells (Dude, get a belt of giant strength) Charisma 12 sorcerer. What's not to like?! His fluff says that he never backs down from a challenge. If I ever meet him, he is SO going down, if only for that stupid name.

Scyllua Darkhope: CR 15 doing 4-13 damage/round. Awesome. She's not even proficient with her damn bastard sword. Her mount is more dangerous then she is. Her fluff says that she fell because she was tricked to believe that an evil lord she had cornered was going to renounce his evil ways and become good.. wut?

Gerti Orelsdotter: Only 6 feats at 20 hd. One of them is skill focus stronecrafting. On the other hand, she's using a greataxe and can power attack, and with the right spell selection, she could clericzilla nicely. Have to question her choice of clothes, though (Not many). Why does she walk around barebellied and uses armor bracers +4? Oo I'm pretty sure frost giants can at least use hide armor.

Oubould Manyarrows:Just chuck a fireball his way and his crown will do the rest. Still, switch out daylight adaption for something usefull, like jump attack, and you have a nice charger. Has to work on his AC though. His strength is low for an ork, though (14 before racial bonus).

Mirt: Ridiculously good attributes. (PB 64!) Even those good attributes don't make up for the fact he is using two weapon fighting with only 3d6 sneak attack.

Mystral

2012-10-26, 03:39 PM

Elaith "The Serpent" Craulnober: Another bad try at being a gish. Favors evocation spells, which he usually heightens. His spellbook only has one level 4 and one level 5 spell at wizard level 9. How did he even DO THAT?! Attributes are, of course, ridiculous, too (PB 62) Has weapon finesse although his strength is nearly the same as his dexterity.

Ningal: And another gish. They really like those in the forgotten realms, don't they. This one has some levels in bard thrown in for good measure, and of course, she uses eovcation and no magical defenses. Her feats are all over the place with some archery, some magic and combat casting. Very little damage for CR 17, and most of it is cold. Has a bounty of 10k gold on her. Easy money if you can cast dimensional lock.

Miklos Selkirk: Has 3 regional feats, which is illegal as far as I know. Watch out, if he flanks you, he might even do more then 10 damage. Maybe 15 if he crits. If he even hits, as he has 10 strength, 18 dexterity and NO WEAPON FINESSE.

Bronnia Stonesplitter: Wizard 7, with a focus on enchantment (and not evocation, yay) although she seems to be a generalist. Her spell book seems to lack defensive spells (although she might be okay with using fly and protection from arrows) and she seems too reliant on wands for my taste. Still, as far as faerun npcs go, she is quite competent.

Mystral

2012-10-26, 04:12 PM

Sememmon: Wizard 17. What could possibly go wrong here? Oh right. He has toughness. *Sigh* Also, he has improved his wisdom and charisma trough wish scrolls, but didn't do so for his intelligence. Why?! Still, being a wizard 17 with nearly all spells available, he could work.

Sengal Took simple weapon proficiency as a feat. As a werewolf. His wisdom is abysmal for a druid, and he does only 1d6 damage at CR 7. Also has 1 feat to much (3 at level 5)

KhaliaTransmuter (Strongest School in 3.0) who barred evocation, illusion and enchantment. Her spell selection is very broad and good, although she is focused a lot on creating magic items. But as she is a red wizard, that's totally in character.

So, all in all, what's to say? The only npcs without mayor faults are rather low level (Arrrak, Bronnia, Khalia, Oubold, maybe Sememmon), at least in the context of the campaign setting. They are single class, and 3 of them are straight wizards or have taken a prestige class that advances spell casting. There are quite a lot of gishs and fighty characters, and most of them fall flat. Strangely, there are next to no divine spellcasters or "skill monkeys" in the mix.

Also, attribute raising items, which are most of the time seen as one of the most basic magic items in existence, are completely absent. Some of the characters seem to have only gone gish so they could buff themselves with cats grace.

Attributes are all over the place, with some worse then the elite array and some with nearly an 18 in every stat. I only skimmed over the npcs, so I will surely have missed a lot of errors, but nearly every time I took a closer look at AC and Attack bonusses, they were wrong.

Douglas

2012-10-26, 04:28 PM

Not strictly a WotC NPC, but this one is from a published module. She's supposed to be the final boss of a 10-level campaign arc. The party is expected to be level 9 or 10 when facing her. She has a bunch of minions to help, but she is unquestionably supposed to be the one in charge and (presumably) the most powerful threat.

Behold, her stat block:
Drow fighter 4/cleric 6; CR 11;
Medium humanoid (elf);
HD 6d8+4d10-10 (39 hp);
Init +2;
Spd 20 ft in breastplate (4 squares), base speed 30 ft;
AC 23 (+2 Dex, +7 breastplate +2, +4 heavy steel shield +2), touch 12, flat-footed 21;
Base attack/grapple +8/+10;
Atk +2 rapier +12 melee (1d6+1/18-20 plus poison) or thrown net +10 ranged (entanglement);
Full atk +2 rapier +12/+7 melee (1d6+1/18-20 plus poison) or thrown net +10 ranged (entanglement);
Space/ Reach 5 ft/5 ft;
SA spells, spell-like abilities, poison, rebuke undead;
SQ drow traits, spell resistance 21;
AL LE;
SV: Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +9;
Str 13, Dex 14, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 16
Skills: Concentration +7, Knowledge (arcana) +4, Knowledge (history) +4, Knowledge (religion) +4, Intimidate +11, Listen +2, Profession (force commander) +11, Search +2, Spot +2, Spellcraft +8;
Feats: Combat Casting, Leadership, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Proficiency (net), Weapon Focus (net)
Domains: Protection, War
Spells: 0th level: detect magic, guidance, inflict minor wounds, resistance; 1st level: command, doom, entropic shield, magic weapon, shield of faith; 2nd level: augury, hold person (2), spiritual weapon, summon monster II;
3rd level: dispel magic, summon monster III (2)
Equipment & Treasure: +2 breastplate, +2 heavy steel shield, +2 rapier, helm of teleportation, net

...

That's ok, keep laughing, I can wait.

...

Yeah, I rebuilt her entirely from scratch before the PCs got anywhere near her. Fighting that set of stats would have been a cakewalk at level 5.

Arcanist

2012-10-26, 06:59 PM

That's...a pretty serious accusation. IMO, completely unfounded.

How so? :smallconfused:

I can expect that WotC has a combination of "doesn't understand its own game" and "plays a different game than the rest of the tables", but insisting on sabotage on their example NPCs goes a bit too far.

Ah... I see...

Now, I'm not a fan of FR (I prefer Eberron myself). I have problems with the various NPCs (particularly Drizzt "good Drow poster-boy" Do'Urden and Elminster the walking deus-ex-machina), but some of the choices are pretty reasonable. Elminster was built as an NPC on 3rd Edition, when PrCs were scarce. They tried to explain his time as a brigand with the few levels of Fighter and Rogue, but he's a spellcaster first and foremost. His choice of spells aren't made to be optimized, but rather made to follow Greenwood's stories. Both WotC and Greenwood are bound by the boundaries (forgive my redundancy) of the stories and the game mechanics. You can do some minimal changes that can make sense (doesn't he has one level of Rogue? Why not change Fighter 3/Rogue 1 into Fighter 2/Rogue 2), but expecting him to suddenly learn Iron Heart when those are mentioned to be extraordinary disciplines before he was even touched by Mystra completely defies all sense. That's where the accusations of "darned optimizers, ruining the fun of us roleplayers" emerge (even if Elminster SHOULD be optimized respecting the boundaries imposed by the game and Mr. Greenwood's stories).

Yes, that makes sense, but creates a wonderful thing called the Stormwind Fallacy. Honestly, I picked Swordsage, because of the maneuvers they have. I recall one of them granting Sneak Attack which was my justification for having those Swordsage levels (Same mechanically abilities as the Rogue with a little bit more shove to it). After learning how to use the ToB I effectively stopped attacking my players with Paladins, Rogues and Fighters. Since effectively my players are charging in a muzzle velocity with a little bit more optimization then most of the encounters printed in most modules. The reason I offered to completely revamp Elminster is because Ioulaum (the Elder Brain Lich) can easily take him out because two of his Spell Like Abilities are Astral Projection and Nondetection (my mistake, one of them is a spell known as a Sorcerer). Even in the Realm those spells are incredibly high powered if used in combination of each other and the fact that he has them as Spell like abilities (not even required to prep them as spells and giving Astral Projection a standard action to cast) is a little bit cheap. Wrap all of that up into a 41st level Wizard (31st Wizard, 5th Archmage, 5th Netherese Arcanist) and you're looking at the worst life in the multiverse.

That being said: There is a certain level of Optimization that NPC should adhere to even if they're going into Epic level.

The "multiclassing into oblivion" syndrome is another problem, though. WotC honestly believes that a Fighter 10/Sorcerer 10 is as strong as a Sorcerer 20 (it is stronger than a Fighter 20, though). Boundaries there are a bit looser, and one can play a bit better. However, suddenly expecting that schools of martial arts meant to be rare are all of a sudden commonplace is...at best, absurd. I can expect that some of the commanders might have levels in Warblade or Swordsage, but having ALL of them perfectly optimized? Gentlemen, unless you're willing to change the game in the name of increased difficulty, it's best to respect the boundaries and not expect the developers to optimize just about everything so that people are forced even MORE to bring up their game. I don't wish to fall into Stormwind Fallacy, but hey, there's more classes out there than the martial adepts. There's so much you can refluff before you have purists decry that you've basically ruined the setting, particularly one such as the FRs that has its lore written in stone (a reason I prefer Eberron, because it has looser lore than FR and is easier to refluff).

This I cannot deny. I'm not talking about perfect optimization for all the NPC (otherwise we'd all be fighting Wizards errday). What I'm talking about is fluff loyal NPC that can actually challenge the party a little bit more effectively then a Fighter/1 Rogue 2 can accomplish. The Tome of Battle actually does mundane fighting properly (I'm sure someone here will disagree with me). the idea that the FR's lore is written in stone is quite obvious. Elminster is a Wizard capable of exceptional physical feats and even without his magic is quite formidable in combat... WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT! I can justify him as being a Swordsage/3 which makes him a better Rogue and a better Fighter with just 3 levels! :smallbiggrin: (Maybe not that good of a skill monkey, but I'm still torn on giving him access to Factotum levels... hmm... need to think on that... Maybe Swordsage/1 Factotum/2? or just go dump a level in JPM for Factotum 3... Might just dump the entire Factotum idea all together).

I agree on almost all your argument exept the bolded part.
Why? Why people can not accept that the game as designed, as reflected by all those NPC around, was not meant around heavy, or even basic I guess, optimization, maybe for incompetence or maybe because they put more importance on fluff, most likely both.
I mean no offence to anyone, it is just that I can not wrap my head about this behavior.

It's because when my PC's encounter a living force of nature like Mordenkainen or Elminster or whoever the hell Eberron has they except to not be able to slaughter them without 1 days worth of planning. I except them to have 21 Contingencies set up (Craft Contingent spell + 1 Contingency spell). I expect them to have every spell ever published in their spellbooks, I expect, that after YEARS AND YEARS OF ADVENTURING, Mordenkainen to have friken Uncanny Forethought! It's just... I expect these Super Wizard idols to be deities without divine ranks if that makes any sense.

Lord Robilar was stated as a level 24 fighter.... W.T.F?

Could easily be a Warblade which would resolve any and all problems the Character faces against say... a Level 11 Wizard? (I'm sure someone can correct me on that since it is probably lower).

toapat

2012-10-26, 07:06 PM

The Tome of Battle actually does mundane fighting properly (I'm sure someone here will disagree with me).

quite wrong, and here is why:

Tome of Battle fixes mundane by writing a new system, instead of fixing the system. the results are effective, but that does not mean they handled the need to fix melee correctly. at all.

Arcanist

2012-10-26, 07:13 PM

Tome of Battle fixes mundane by writing a new system, instead of fixing the system. the results are effective, but that does not mean they handled the need to fix melee correctly. at all.

Pardon, I didn't know that they should have scrapped the entire combat system just so that they could fix Mundanes instead of, ya know, adding in something that allows a Fighter to keep up with a Sorcerer. Completely reasonable. :smalltongue:

Coidzor

2012-10-26, 07:15 PM

Lord Robilar was stated as a level 24 fighter.... W.T.F?

I think that's literally how that character ended up, as Lord Robilar was actually Gary Gygax's son(?) Robert's character back before D&D was really codified into the first editions, IIRC.

Things were different back then. Now, the decision to leave him as-is for legacy purposes rather than modernize him a bit more, I'm a bit iffy on that, I must admit.

Arcanist

2012-10-26, 07:22 PM

I think that's literally how that character ended up, as Lord Robilar was actually Gary Gygax's son(?) Robert's character back before D&D was really codified into the first editions, IIRC.

Things were different back then. Now, the decision to leave him as-is for legacy purposes rather than modernize him a bit more, I'm a bit iffy on that, I must admit.

Ooo... I never actually thought if it that way... :smallconfused:

Coidzor

2012-10-26, 07:38 PM

Ooo... I never actually thought if it that way... :smallconfused:

I honestly don't recall if there's any others from back then which survived as statted up NPCs though.

Kazyan

2012-10-26, 07:42 PM

The thing about NPCs is that you don't need to optimize them. You can just give them another level. If I wanted to stat out Ty, The Tasmanian Tiger, I could either do a lot of fiddling with Warblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 2 while handwaving fluff and wracking my brain for way to get the feats in time, or I could just slap 10 levels of Fighter (with no ACFs, gasp!) on him to get those Boomerang feats, TWF tree, and ranged Power Attack stuff that would make him a relevant encounter.

It's also really distasteful to handwave the Sublime Way fluff on a sample NPC, because, well, you'd expect the company which freaking made the Tome of Battle to adhere to what it says. I'm...having a really hard time articulating that point.

Coidzor

2012-10-26, 07:45 PM

Biggest problem is that it was released so darn late, haha.

Second biggest problem was the corner they wrote themselves into with the fluff as far as letting people accept it.

Firechanter

2012-10-26, 07:47 PM

Concerning characters like Elmo or the Simbul... I just can't help wondering how such complete and utter _gimps_ could ever have gotten anywhere near Epic levels in the first place, much less way into them.

Runestar

2012-10-26, 08:17 PM

One interesting thing has been pointed out - apart from a few iconic npcs like larloch, no other FR spellcaster uses stat-boosting eq. :smallcool: Even elminster feels he is too boss to don a headband of intellect. :smallbiggrin:

Few more that spring to mind.

Alustriel's son is a fighter7/wizard9. So many cardinal sins broken (most notably, taking odd lvs in fighter). The consolation is that in 3.5, he could at least be a fighter1/wizard5/eldritch knight10.

Storm silverhand is a rogue/fighter/bard/sorc. :smallsigh:

The epic npcs in the ELH too. Should we come up with some guidelines to prevent npcs (those combat related, at least) from sucking too much. :smallamused:

T.G. Oskar

2012-10-26, 08:52 PM

I agree on almost all your argument exept the bolded part.
Why? Why people can not accept that the game as designed, as reflected by all those NPC around, was not meant around heavy, or even basic I guess, optimization, maybe for incompetence or maybe because they put more importance on fluff, most likely both.
I mean no offence to anyone, it is just that I can not wrap my head about this behaviour.

Not even by respecting the boundaries?

Thing is, consider just the spell list. Elminster has access to a HUGE amount of spells. You can consider the entire spell list from the PHB fair game. So...being essentially Mr. Greenwood's avatar in-game, you can expect the darned mage to be one of the most powerful beings in existence.

Yet, the game has been upped a bit. If he's meant to be the most powerful spellcaster, the idea is that he should be. Not having a moderately optimized Wizard essentially crush him at his own game.

That said: does that mean you'll change his Fighter levels into Warblade levels? As I mentioned, that doesn't make sense. However: what from the stat block is exactly as explained in the books, what's derived to explain some of the stuff he can pull on the books, and what's just filler? That filler can be optimized, because it's not something supported by the rules.

Fluff-wise, what's the difference between a Wizard 20 and a Wizard 24? Or rather, a Wizard 21 and a Wizard 24? One extra feat? A good example would be how the first levels are arranged: from what I recall, Elminster was a brigand before Mystra took her interest in him and made him her boyfriend devoted servant. To what extent does 1 level in Fighter and 2 levels of Rogue represent this? Rogue 2 grants Evasion, which can represent a stroke of luck avoiding magical attacks, and Fighter 1 grants proficiency with all martial weapons, which allows him to wield a longsword. Now, what about Cleric? I can understand that they need to explain his attachment to Mystra, even if Favored Soul fits better; yet, Favored Soul is 3.5, so it's off limits. Why not Arcane Devotee, then? He doesn't gain many spells, and I presume he doesn't use Turn Undead to defeat the very powerful undead he fights against, no? Arcane Devotee is on the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, right before Archmage (which he uses), and probably could make better use of. Is it required to have, say, three Cleric levels to be considered a proper priest, like in 1st Edition? That's a purely fluff-related question which has some connection to mechanics (connection between class levels and hierarchy within an organization), which could impose a boundary; if it doesn't, then it's fair to tweak.

It's one reason why I mention "within boundaries". You can't change Elminster's rogue levels because those are part of his history; you can't change his wizard levels because it's the class that defines him. However, to what extent does his amount of ranks in, say, Jump or Swim define his character, when he has spells to negate jumping or swimming? To what extent those skill ranks could be shifted to reflect his skill at some key, crucial skill that he always use in the books?

It's a reason why I mention that I didn't wish to fall into the Stormwind Fallacy. Optimizing doesn't mean ruining a character.

Yes, that makes sense, but creates a wonderful thing called the Stormwind Fallacy. Honestly, I picked Swordsage, because of the maneuvers they have. I recall one of them granting Sneak Attack which was my justification for having those Swordsage levels (Same mechanically abilities as the Rogue with a little bit more shove to it). After learning how to use the ToB I effectively stopped attacking my players with Paladins, Rogues and Fighters. Since effectively my players are charging in a muzzle velocity with a little bit more optimization then most of the encounters printed in most modules. The reason I offered to completely revamp Elminster is because Ioulaum (the Elder Brain Lich) can easily take him out because two of his Spell Like Abilities are Astral Projection and Nondetection (my mistake, one of them is a spell known as a Sorcerer). Even in the Realm those spells are incredibly high powered if used in combination of each other and the fact that he has them as Spell like abilities (not even required to prep them as spells and giving Astral Projection a standard action to cast) is a little bit cheap. Wrap all of that up into a 41st level Wizard (31st Wizard, 5th Archmage, 5th Netherese Arcanist) and you're looking at the worst life in the multiverse.

That being said: There is a certain level of Optimization that NPC should adhere to even if they're going into Epic level.

Jeez, I get attacked by BOTH SIDES? Hey, at least I made two people with distinct views to agree on something: I seem to be wrong for one reason.

No, I don't intend to invoke Stormwind Fallacy by what I say. However, why exactly he should take levels in Warblade and Swordsage when the campaign setting hesitates on adding Psionics, and only later they decided to apply them a bit, opening the setting to other mechanics? That's what I refer to the "boundaries". You can attempt to justify some things by doing some broad changes, but refluffing can only go so much. In fact, I would say that if I fall into Stormwind Fallacy from one side (trying to respect roleplaying), you'd be falling from the other side (emphasizing optimization). You can be creative with what exists and still make these guys better.

For starters: I have the Tome of Battle book as well, and that hasn't made me scratch away the Rogue, the Monk or the Paladin. Sure, I've done homebrewing for them (not that I negate these classes need help), but I've always considered they can co-exist, and not merely as dipping classes. The one class I can agree I can scratch is the Fighter, but I haven't dropped the Rogue for classes such as Swordsages and Factotum.

Second: Elminster is a wizard. Ioulaum is a wizard. If we're speaking of epic wizards, the one who wins is the one who cheats the most. Both have access to Astral Projection and Nondetection, Teleport without Error, Time Stop, Gate...it all depends on whom makes the first mistake. Even trying the very darn best to prevent Magic Tea Party, both have a wide variety of spells at their disposal.

Third: since when "a specific level of optimization" is a written rule in the DMG? It's more of an implied rule than an actual rule. If your party is bulldozing NPCs with little optimization, then it's best to up the ante; if they're having problems, then it's best to deal with the players by helping them. However, it's rude at best to expect that NPCs should be optimized because players will bulldoze them, or that players will be challenged by NPCs (regardless of optimization). If NPCs must reach a specific level of optimization as a rule (not a guideline or suggestion), then who's the best to gauge that level? Right now, the thread is debating that the developers aren't. The developers should be the best to define that level if there's any hope of having an official level; else, that statement is subjective.

This I cannot deny. I'm not talking about perfect optimization for all the NPC (otherwise we'd all be fighting Wizards errday). What I'm talking about is fluff loyal NPC that can actually challenge the party a little bit more effectively then a Fighter/1 Rogue 2 can accomplish. The Tome of Battle actually does mundane fighting properly (I'm sure someone here will disagree with me). the idea that the FR's lore is written in stone is quite obvious. Elminster is a Wizard capable of exceptional physical feats and even without his magic is quite formidable in combat... WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT! I can justify him as being a Swordsage/3 which makes him a better Rogue and a better Fighter with just 3 levels! (Maybe not that good of a skill monkey, but I'm still torn on giving him access to Factotum levels... hmm... need to think on that... Maybe Swordsage/1 Factotum/2? or just go dump a level in JPM for Factotum 3... Might just dump the entire Factotum idea all together).

If I'd go with your suggestions, I'd go Factotum 3.

In fact, why the heck are you suggesting Swordsage of all things? His Wis is nice, but nothing surprising compared to his Int, and Factotum has excellent Int synergy.

However, what's the problem with Rogue levels? He gets trapfinding and evasion. Neither class offers Evasion, and only Factotum grants Trapfinding. I presume you're saying "oh, he can get a Ring of Evasion and Extra Ring", but he could instead replace that Ring for a, I dunno, Ring of Wizardry IX?

What does he get with Swordsage that you get so excited, if I may ask (that WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT? seems...I dunno, the wrong color?), by adding that class? Wis to AC, when he's at a point where AC is pointless. Assassin's Stance? He could get that via feats, AND keep his existing SA dice for extra damage; after all, he has quite a lot of feats. Quick to Act? He probably can prepare a contingent Nerveskitter at all times just to keep that feat slot free (then again, it's a 1st level slot), so a +1 to initiative isn't that hot (now, a +7 to initiative from Brains over Brawn? That's noticeable). The maneuvers themselves? I dunno, but he kinda forgot about his fighting ability when he became a Wizard (and with good reason), so he's not getting the best maneuvers (or that many, mind you). Moment of Perfect Mind? He probably doesn't need Reflex saves anymore! If you mean "at first", perhaps: then again, he could get a decent Reflex save applying at all times instead of just once per encounter (unless you get Adaptive Style, and then that'd be once per every two rounds). Factotum, IMO, has that beat.

If the idea is, though, "anything is better than Fighter/Rogue", think on the lines that even Elminster is dipping those classes. I don't get what's the problem on dipping. Elminster is still a Wizard, and still a 24th level Wizard, and has a frickin' (dead) god behind him, so the question is pretty meaningless. Even if it the question has meaning (ignoring Mystra's direct interventions on his behalf, and thus surviving the first levels with difficulty), isn't it better to consider how to exploit those choices before thinking of simply replacing those choices with others which only address one side of the game (i.e. combat), at least in those first levels? Swordsage is great in combat; how about outside of combat, you know? Factotum at least has a formidable boon with skills and trapfinding to disable traps (which can be dangerous at the first few levels); that doesn't mean you can work something out with that bonus feat you get from Fighter, plus the SA, trapfinding, 2 extra skill points and evasion.

Coidzor

2012-10-26, 09:33 PM

The epic npcs in the ELH too. Should we come up with some guidelines to prevent npcs (those combat related, at least) from sucking too much. :smallamused:

Well, an NPC making handbook isn't something you see every day, haha. I certainly would check it out with interest to see what someone would come up with.

toapat

2012-10-26, 09:45 PM

Second: Elminster is a wizard. Ioulaum is a wizard. If we're speaking of epic wizards, the one who wins is the one who cheats the most. Both have access to Astral Projection and Nondetection, Teleport without Error, Time Stop, Gate...it all depends on whom makes the first mistake. Even trying the very darn best to prevent Magic Tea Party, both have a wide variety of spells at their disposal.

this brings forward a rather amusing idea:

When you start playing with epic casting stuff, bring in the M:TG cards/decks, its more descriptive of what the hell the party is doing.

Arcanist

2012-10-27, 12:03 AM

Whoa, this one turned out to be an undivided wall of text so pardon if I miss your point in the long run :smalleek:

Not even by respecting the boundaries?

Thing is, consider just the spell list. Elminster has access to a HUGE amount of spells. You can consider the entire spell list from the PHB fair game. So...being essentially Mr. Greenwood's avatar in-game, you can expect the darned mage to be one of the most powerful beings in existence.

To quote flickerdart

"[Citation needed] No where in his statblock in the ELH does it mention anything about the contents of his spellbook and if it does, please feel free to correct me, however after scouring the internet and searching for Elminster's spellbook content, I cannot seem to find it. It would be quite unfortunate for Elminster to travel with 4 Empty Blessed Books.

Yet, the game has been upped a bit. If he's meant to be the most powerful spellcaster, the idea is that he should be. Not having a moderately optimized Wizard essentially crush him at his own game.

FALSE! I do not believe Elminster should be the most powerful Spellcaster in the realm. I believe that he should be a POWERFUL spellcasting in the realm. With his current stats he could be killed by a 16th level Sorcerer (See infinite damage), but I'm sure you'll say "that isn't fair" or "He time traveled to prevent that!" and I return to you with: FALSE! Nothing specifically states that Elminster has any access to time travel or the highly coveted "Teleport Through Time" spell, only that by your interpretation he has access to "HUGE amounts of spells". Of course the argument could be made that Mystra used her Portfolio sense to detect anything that would harm her favorite Chosen, but that is an entirely different discussion. I mean no offense here and if you take this the wrong way, allow me to apologize in advance.

That said: does that mean you'll change his Fighter levels into Warblade levels? As I mentioned, that doesn't make sense. However: what from the stat block is exactly as explained in the books, what's derived to explain some of the stuff he can pull on the books, and what's just filler? That filler can be optimized, because it's not something supported by the rules.

I am simply offering a revamp to the Sage of Shadowdale, who would clearly have levels in Mystic Theurge instead of 24 straight levels in Wizard. The previously posted ideas were just that. Ideas. They were skeleton views of how the build should look like. If you still favor the idea of Elminster being able to be nuked by an optimized caster, then be my guest. I'm sure we've had the occasional player that has declared that he wanted to take down a notable NPC in a campaign before, my offer merely "ups the ante" as you put it. With access to combat even inside of an Anti-magic field (Initiate of Mystra) this makes the Sage a much more credible threat. I remember hearing about one group that just used to bullrush the Wizard into the casters so that the antimagic field hit all of them and then they (the enemies) were screwed, but with this revamp he becomes much more difficult to defeat Since now he actually has access to much more power being a triple threat in the forms of Divine Theurgy, Arcane Spellcasting and The Sublime Way. He has a reasonable response towards every action that would come his way in the form of contingent spells. Elminster is no fool that would be caught with his pants down.

Fluff-wise, what's the difference between a Wizard 20 and a Wizard 24? Or rather, a Wizard 21 and a Wizard 24? One extra feat? A good example would be how the first levels are arranged: from what I recall, Elminster was a brigand before Mystra took her interest in him and made him her boyfriend devoted servant. To what extent does 1 level in Fighter and 2 levels of Rogue represent this? Rogue 2 grants Evasion, which can represent a stroke of luck avoiding magical attacks, and Fighter 1 grants proficiency with all martial weapons, which allows him to wield a longsword. Now, what about Cleric? I can understand that they need to explain his attachment to Mystra, even if Favored Soul fits better; yet, Favored Soul is 3.5, so it's off limits. Why not Arcane Devotee, then?

Elminster was actually a Priestess of Mystra at one point! (Long story short, she wanted him/her to know what magic was like as a Woman... idk how the contents of your pants affects your magic, but eh)
The reason he doesn't have levels in Arcane Devote is because he hadn't even begin training as a Wizard until after his priesthood with Mystra
With that logic it would make more sense to use all 3 levels as Rogue levels!

He doesn't gain many spells, and I presume he doesn't use Turn Undead to defeat the very powerful undead he fights against, no? Arcane Devotee is on the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, right before Archmage (which he uses), and probably could make better use of. Is it required to have, say, three Cleric levels to be considered a proper priest, like in 1st Edition? That's a purely fluff-related question which has some connection to mechanics (connection between class levels and hierarchy within an organization), which could impose a boundary; if it doesn't, then it's fair to tweak.

Yes, but if Elminster is a Mystic Theurge then without Early entry shenanigans (I would never use those for restating of NPC btw), he would need to have 3 levels in Cleric... strange. I've already nipped the whole Arcane Devotee so shall we move on to more... Magical matters? :smallbiggrin:

... OH! Before I forget, the 3 levels of Cleric thing is a relic of 1st Edition (no time to explain the entire genesis of the Realm as described by Greenwood, so lets move on!)

It's one reason why I mention "within boundaries". You can't change Elminster's rogue levels because those are part of his history; you can't change his wizard levels because it's the class that defines him. However, to what extent does his amount of ranks in, say, Jump or Swim define his character, when he has spells to negate jumping or swimming? To what extent those skill ranks could be shifted to reflect his skill at some key, crucial skill that he always use in the books?

Elminster has 3 ranks in Dance and is described as an excellent dancer... I think that is enough for the Skill discussion... and yes! You can change his Rogue levels (hell, increase it by one level and remove the level in fighter... It doesn't make sense really...) Are all Brigands level 1 fighters and level 2 rogues because Elminster as a Brigand was such?

It's a reason why I mention that I didn't wish to fall into the Stormwind Fallacy. Optimizing doesn't mean ruining a character.

You're saying that you can't change a character because their fluff would go against it. I could not find a better example of that very same Fallacy if I tried...

No, I don't intend to invoke Stormwind Fallacy by what I say. However, why exactly he should take levels in Warblade and Swordsage when the campaign setting hesitates on adding Psionics, and only later they decided to apply them a bit, opening the setting to other mechanics? That's what I refer to the "boundaries". You can attempt to justify some things by doing some broad changes, but refluffing can only go so much. In fact, I would say that if I fall into Stormwind Fallacy from one side (trying to respect roleplaying), you'd be falling from the other side (emphasizing optimization). You can be creative with what exists and still make these guys better.

I'm taking a Fluff + Mechanics = Greatness approach. I just believe that with all the Fluff backing up on Elminster's Tier 1 Greatness that he should actually... Oh... Idk... Invoke that!? If you truly want Elminster to have 6 dead levels then be my guest, but my Elminster is a Super Wizard-Ninja and not just a Wizard. :smallannoyed:

For starters: I have the Tome of Battle book as well, and that hasn't made me scratch away the Rogue, the Monk or the Paladin. Sure, I've done homebrewing for them (not that I negate these classes need help), but I've always considered they can co-exist, and not merely as dipping classes. The one class I can agree I can scratch is the Fighter, but I haven't dropped the Rogue for classes such as Swordsages and Factotum.

So you agree with me that the Mundanes need improvement. Wonderful. :smallbiggrin:

Second: Elminster is a wizard. Ioulaum is a wizard. If we're speaking of epic wizards, the one who wins is the one who cheats the most. Both have access to Astral Projection and Nondetection, Teleport without Error, Time Stop, Gate...it all depends on whom makes the first mistake. Even trying the very darn best to prevent Magic Tea Party, both have a wide variety of spells at their disposal.

Yes, because fighting your hardest against a powerful threat is cheating... Honestly the only thing that matters is who has the most proper contingency against someone elses contingency. You're playing Epic level Rocket Tag. First one to screw up is doomed, but with Ioulaum having access to Sorcerer casting in addition to Wizard casting (AND Elder Brain RHD) and Elminster having access to Wizard casting AND 2nd level Cleric spells... EHHHHH not so much of a fair fight anymore... Ioulaum would clearly emerge victorious in this Epic level Rocket Tag :smallbiggrin:

Third: since when "a specific level of optimization" is a written rule in the DMG? It's more of an implied rule than an actual rule. If your party is bulldozing NPCs with little optimization, then it's best to up the ante; if they're having problems, then it's best to deal with the players by helping them. However, it's rude at best to expect that NPCs should be optimized because players will bulldoze them, or that players will be challenged by NPCs (regardless of optimization). If NPCs must reach a specific level of optimization as a rule (not a guideline or suggestion), then who's the best to gauge that level? Right now, the thread is debating that the developers aren't. The developers should be the best to define that level if there's any hope of having an official level; else, that statement is subjective.

I've never stated that it was, but alright. :smallconfused:

I've already regarded the whole "up the ante" thing so eh. Personally as a DM I prefer to challenge my players with non-tangible threats (traps, environmental affects, etc.)

If I'd go with your suggestions, I'd go Factotum 3.

In fact, why the heck are you suggesting Swordsage of all things? His Wis is nice, but nothing surprising compared to his Int, and Factotum has excellent Int synergy.

Now, who is betraying Fluff? :smallamused: so you recommend Factotum/3 instead of Rogue/2 Fighter/1. Wondrous! :smallbiggrin:

However, what's the problem with Rogue levels? He gets trapfinding and evasion. Neither class offers Evasion, and only Factotum grants Trapfinding. I presume you're saying "oh, he can get a Ring of Evasion and Extra Ring", but he could instead replace that Ring for a, I dunno, Ring of Wizardry IX?

"He can always just take a feat to be able to get Evasion!" on that note: I do believe that at a certain level of Epic play you shouldn't have magical items listed in the DMG or the ELH. Hell you should be making your own magical items that truly define YOUR character and help you describe who you truly want to be. Epic level Artificers should truly exemplify this idea more then anything else... but that is must my belief...

What does he get with Swordsage that you get so excited, if I may ask (that WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT? seems...I dunno, the wrong color?), by adding that class? Wis to AC, when he's at a point where AC is pointless. Assassin's Stance? He could get that via feats, AND keep his existing SA dice for extra damage; after all, he has quite a lot of feats. Quick to Act? He probably can prepare a contingent Nerveskitter at all times just to keep that feat slot free (then again, it's a 1st level slot), so a +1 to initiative isn't that hot (now, a +7 to initiative from Brains over Brawn? That's noticeable). The maneuvers themselves? I dunno, but he kinda forgot about his fighting ability when he became a Wizard (and with good reason), so he's not getting the best maneuvers (or that many, mind you). Moment of Perfect Mind? He probably doesn't need Reflex saves anymore! If you mean "at first", perhaps: then again, he could get a decent Reflex save applying at all times instead of just once per encounter (unless you get Adaptive Style, and then that'd be once per every two rounds). Factotum, IMO, has that beat.

It was just an idea that I was gonna go with so I could add Phoenix Mage, but okay... It seems like a good idea , but if you disagree, by all means disagree. At high Epic levels of Play Initiative doesn't exactly hold much ground since you have people using Contingent Celerities into Contingent Time Stops, into Contingent Contingencies to reset these Contingencies and then trigger Contingent Teleport Through Times to kill the guy before he ever thinks of killing you and then his Contingent Teleport Through Time triggers which kicks him back in time to do the exact same thing and so on and so forth until HD+1 contingencies have gone off. Hit Die actually means something in Epic :smallbiggrin:

Blue Lantern

2012-10-27, 03:38 AM

Not even by respecting the boundaries?
Yet, the game has been upped a bit. If he's meant to be the most powerful spellcaster, the idea is that he should be. Not having a moderately optimized Wizard essentially crush him at his own game.

[...]

Jeez, I get attacked by BOTH SIDES? Hey, at least I made two people with distinct views to agree on something: I seem to be wrong for one reason.

First: I didn't mean to attack anybody and I apologize if it come out that way, I am merely trying to understand your view.
I too love having and making a decent character (within limits) it' just that also believe that the unspoken intention of the rules and the fluff that accompanies them should not be shattered because of ill conceived wording and poor planned synergies.
It is obvious, to me at least, that, just to make an example, the combo Genesis/Astral projection was never meant to be a "any 17 level wizard is now functionally immortal" thing, even if it is technically within the rules it kinda feels like cheating.

That said I now understand your point, even if I don't completely agree with it, and I think it's best to close the OT.

T.G. Oskar

2012-10-27, 04:54 AM

Whoa, this one turned out to be an undivided wall of text so pardon if I miss your point in the long run :smalleek:

I dunno you, but I'm not worried about the wall of text, but rather how I feel we're basically flying into nerdrage for the imperative need to prove someone wrong over the Internet. I usually debate in walls of text anyways, so...

To quote flickerdart

"[Citation needed] No where in his statblock in the ELH does it mention anything about the contents of his spellbook and if it does, please feel free to correct me, however after scouring the internet and searching for Elminster's spellbook content, I cannot seem to find it. It would be quite unfortunate for Elminster to travel with 4 Empty Blessed Books.

I take as basis the "[...], Elminster has access to incredible resources and can acquire or make almost any nonartifact item he might need, given time". Scrolls are non-artifacts so, given time, he can have access to virtually all spells. I can understand why there's no spellbook for Elminster: the DM decides which spells he has prepared. He builds the spellbook. Since he can access all non-artifact items given time (and he has had quite a lot of time), it's natural to assume he should have had at least once a copy of each scroll in the DMG, which amounts to basically every spell in the PHB.

Though, I could have sworn I saw it once. Or, at least, that's the common conception with each important wizard/cleric NPC. Heck, clerics lack their prepared spells as well, if you look at the ELH.

FALSE! I do not believe Elminster should be the most powerful Spellcaster in the realm. I believe that he should be a POWERFUL spellcasting in the realm. With his current stats he could be killed by a 16th level Sorcerer (See infinite damage), but I'm sure you'll say "that isn't fair" or "He time traveled to prevent that!" and I return to you with: FALSE! Nothing specifically states that Elminster has any access to time travel or the highly coveted "Teleport Through Time" spell, only that by your interpretation he has access to "HUGE amounts of spells". Of course the argument could be made that Mystra used her Portfolio sense to detect anything that would harm her favorite Chosen, but that is an entirely different discussion. I mean no offense here and if you take this the wrong way, allow me to apologize in advance.

Actually, my answer is "I couldn't give a rat's darned buttocks about Elmi(na)ster", but since he's the topic of the entire discussion...the only answer I could think is "he's Mr. Greenwood's avatar". I recall he identifies with Elminster more than any other character. Note that Elminster has hints of favoritism, bordering Mary Sue territory if only because he's died a few times, gone to Hell and had its deity essentially annihilated.

True, he should be ONE of the most powerful. There are far more powerful spellcasters around. I take you recall that I don't favor the Realms, and this is one reason: there's epic characters of essentially every level. Take some time, and you'll find epic warblades, swordsages, crusaders, samurai, hexblades, swashbucklers, spellthieves, ninja, scouts, marshals, healers, warmages, warlocks, wu jen, archivists, dread necromancers, binders, shadowcasters, and even truenamers. I take I have forgotten one or two other classes, probably psionics and Artificer (but the latter I can wave on "it's an Eberron class").

In Eberron, all epics are either sealed (Rakshasa Rajahs), holed in one continent (Argonessen; you can debate about Sarlona), or out of the plane (Daelkyr from Xoriat, most outsiders). Oh, or dead (Titans and Primordial Giants). The highest characters you can deal with are usually mid-level, so by the time you reach high level you feel already going beyond what any character can pull off.

I am simply offering a revamp to the Sage of Shadowdale, who would clearly have levels in Mystic Theurge instead of 24 straight levels in Wizard. The previously posted ideas were just that. Ideas. They were skeleton views of how the build should look like. If you still favor the idea of Elminster being able to be nuked by an optimized caster, then be my guest. I'm sure we've had the occasional player that has declared that he wanted to take down a notable NPC in a campaign before, my offer merely "ups the ante" as you put it. With access to combat even inside of an Anti-magic field (Initiate of Mystra) this makes the Sage a much more credible threat. I remember hearing about one group that just used to bullrush the Wizard into the casters so that the antimagic field hit all of them and then they (the enemies) were screwed, but with this revamp he becomes much more difficult to defeat Since now he actually has access to much more power being a triple threat in the forms of Divine Theurgy, Arcane Spellcasting and The Sublime Way. He has a reasonable response towards every action that would come his way in the form of contingent spells. Elminster is no fool that would be caught with his pants down.

If I recall correctly, Mystra basically pushed him into learning Wizardry full time. That said, it's recalling: you may probably correct me on the idea that he has access to higher level Cleric spells in the stories.

What I debate is the use of the Sublime Way, because it makes no sense by means of fluff. If you insist that's Stormwind, then I guess I'll have to claim myself as guilty, but if you're playing the game and you're meant to be the heroes and the guys who mastered the secret disciplines with a lot of effort, the last thing you want is a cheater of Mystra making you feel bad because he can do maneuvers better than you. He'd already be a powerhouse with Mystic Theurge and all those levels. Initiate of Mystra and Invoke Magic would essentially make him a threat even on the places where Mystra has no dominion. That already makes him a credible threat: I mean, just by having Epic Spellcasting, he already won the game. You don't need initiator levels on top of that just because. Also, what would come first: Mystic Theurge, or JPM? I believe this last one to be a bit more important, because it implies how E would progress during his travels and adventures: does he trains further on his maneuvers while sacrificing his divine magic potential, or does he ignores his initiating abilities to become a more straightforward powerhouse through Divine Power + Divine Metamagic + Persistent Spell + infinite Nightsticks (which he gets through his infinite resources) just for starters and then stack as many Consistencies and buffing spells as he can, eventually basically not being there while he ends battles in one round?

Finally, and I separate it: exactly what you look in Jade Phoenix Mage so as to refluff it? It doesn't get that much spellcasting ability, even if you've basically completed your progression. I don't see how the class features would fit: he'd be a SpellFire Wind Mage or something? I'd be careful on how I'd refluff the class, because the fluff would fit 'brewing better. (Mmm...Spellfire + Sublime Way...gives me an idea!)

For what it's worth, Elminster could have its retirement (and if it were done by, say, Eranthis, that'd be hilarious!)

Elminster was actually a Priestess of Mystra at one point! (Long story short, she wanted him/her to know what magic was like as a Woman... idk how the contents of your pants affects your magic, but eh)
The reason he doesn't have levels in Arcane Devote is because he hadn't even begin training as a Wizard until after his priesthood with Mystra
With that logic it would make more sense to use all 3 levels as Rogue levels!

Yes, I am aware about "Elmina" (that was his name when gender-swapped, no?). It's Mr. Greenwood pulling a Tiresias on his avatar. Sounds sorta kinky...then again, he's Mystra's boy-toy, so...

By the logic of "he becomes a Wizard after his priesthood", then it's best to suggest that he basically abandoned progressing his Cleric levels and went full Wizard. That'd suggest precluding MT from his list of choices, though it is plausible (not a wide chasm to leap, in any case).

Yes, but if Elminster is a Mystic Theurge then without Early entry shenanigans (I would never use those for restating of NPC btw), he would need to have 3 levels in Cleric... strange. I've already nipped the whole Arcane Devotee so shall we move on to more... Magical matters? :smallbiggrin:

... OH! Before I forget, the 3 levels of Cleric thing is a relic of 1st Edition (no time to explain the entire genesis of the Realm as described by Greenwood, so lets move on!)

Again; you're the one that suggests he was built to become a Mystic Theurge. IMO, he's a very powerful Wizard (though the build doesn't represent that; were it by Greenwood, he'd stat it as "Elminster always appears out of nowhere and pulls a deus ex machina to win", but the devs had to resort to mechanics to explain it without caring about optimization) who was a brigand before being caught by Mystra. The priest(ess) thing just adds to the dip.

Elminster has 3 ranks in Dance and is described as an excellent dancer... I think that is enough for the Skill discussion... and yes! You can change his Rogue levels (hell, increase it by one level and remove the level in fighter... It doesn't make sense really...) Are all Brigands level 1 fighters and level 2 rogues because Elminster as a Brigand was such?

No, a brigand can be anything from Rogue 1 to Rogue X/Fighter X to Swashbuckler X to Warblade X/Factotum X. Fluff-wise, he was a brigand: I doubt a brigand has access to techniques that are basically taught in very specific places and that he couldn't learn on his own. Unless you suggest that he can learn things on his own.

The Fighter level is so that he can use that longsword and probably start with a slightly bigger amount of HP... Probably... Starting as Rogue makes more sense, tho.

You're saying that you can't change a character because their fluff would go against it. I could not find a better example of that very same Fallacy if I tried...

The opposite, maybe? If I recall correctly, the Stormwind fallacy can be approached through the roleplayer side ("the fluff is sacred, you shouldn't change anything!") and from the optimizer side ("play a Wizard and then go Archmage and Incantatrix; it nets you a wider list of spells! I know you want to be a blaster and you were already aiming for Mailman, so what? Wizard is better!").

Then again, I've always associated the Stormwind Fallacy applying to player characters and DM-built NPCs. Maybe that's the confusion?

I'm taking a Fluff + Mechanics = Greatness approach. I just believe that with all the Fluff backing up on Elminster's Tier 1 Greatness that he should actually... Oh... Idk... Invoke that!? If you truly want Elminster to have 6 dead levels then be my guest, but my Elminster is a Super Wizard-Ninja and not just a Wizard. :smallannoyed:

Again, I don't care much about Elminster. I don't want him ruining my game because, even if he can't take some of the Epic spellcasters around, he still can mop anything on the Monster Manual just by sneezing, so why I'm adventuring in any case? Just wait until El, or Drizzt, or the Simbul, or Storm, or any of the high-level NPCs finish the quest! I mean, it doesn't take them less than a round to pull off, so it's not like they need proxies OR worry about their enemies taking that same amount of time to ruin their plans!

...Super Ninja-Theurge Elminster, on the other hand, is exactly what I hate about the Realms and taking it up to eleven. Why take someone who's Tier 1 and make it Tier -1, anyways? Just because he's the setting writer's pet?

So you agree with me that the Mundanes need improvement. Wonderful. :smallbiggrin:

Well, duh! Of course they need improvement! Were you thinking that I thought the PHB was perfect as-is, and that Fireball is the best because it can deal damage over an area?

...I don't like spellcasters that much; full spellcasters that is. I can stomach Clerics (I've said that I love Paladins, but I consider Clerics my vocation in any case), but I know I'd suck playing as a Wizard. That said, I feel that if I want to play a more martially-inclined divine warrior, I'll play a Crusader, and if I want a divine warrior with a spellcasting inclination, I'll play a Paladin. I know it'll take some time to buff the Paladin if I use the PHB version, but I find that more rewarding that taking it easy with the Crusader, particularly after the battle is over and I'm limited to my skill ranks and mundane stuff to deal with supernatural obstacles. Unless it's breaking a wall (yay Mountain Hammer!), maybe.

Yes, because fighting your hardest against a powerful threat is cheating... Honestly the only thing that matters is who has the most proper contingency against someone elses contingency. You're playing Epic level Rocket Tag. First one to screw up is doomed, but with Ioulaum having access to Sorcerer casting in addition to Wizard casting (AND Elder Brain RHD) and Elminster having access to Wizard casting AND 2nd level Cleric spells... EHHHHH not so much of a fair fight anymore... Ioulaum would clearly emerge victorious in this Epic level Rocket Tag :smallbiggrin:

So how exactly someone with dual-9s on arcane and divine plus some degree of knowledge of maneuvers at 35th level can beat a character with at least 41 levels of Wizard, plus Sorcerer casting and Elder Brain RHDs? I presume you're probably looking at a 60th level character, at the very least. Numerically, and because of his access to two sources of arcane spells, Ioulaum could still bust Elminster just by Arcane Spellsurge.

I've never stated that it was, but alright. :smallconfused:

I've already regarded the whole "up the ante" thing so eh. Personally as a DM I prefer to challenge my players with non-tangible threats (traps, environmental affects, etc.)

Kinda beats the premise to the side. If you prefer to challenge your players through other threats, why buff the NPCs?

Now, who is betraying Fluff? :smallamused: so you recommend Factotum/3 instead of Rogue/2 Fighter/1. Wondrous! :smallbiggrin:

"If I go with your suggestions". Hey, can't I give an idea on how to improve your prospective build? I guess that's the reason I'm nerdraging: we're assuming wrong things about each other. I find that the Int synergy makes levels in Factotum more cost-effective than Swordsage. But hey, Factotum is actually close to the fluff! They get decent combat skills, plus very effective skill monkey capabilities, and works far better than Swordsage at early levels in and out of combat. I mean, you were suggesting Warblade at first: my impression is that you went with Swordsage because you wanted to enter JPM and get Assassin's Stance, while Warblade gets nifty Int synergy, huge HD and a better recovery rate. You can enter through Warblade; it's just a wee bit more difficult than the norm.

"He can always just take a feat to be able to get Evasion!" on that note: I do believe that at a certain level of Epic play you shouldn't have magical items listed in the DMG or the ELH. Hell you should be making your own magical items that truly define YOUR character and help you describe who you truly want to be. Epic level Artificers should truly exemplify this idea more then anything else... but that is must my belief...

Try making your own Item of Legacy? It's as close as you get without busting a great deal of your WBL.

That, or start crafting Artifacts.

IMO, I'd like to depend less on magic items and more on my build, because I'll never know when I end having my items suppressed or disjunctioned (or...sundered...*shudder*). Then again, I prefer 'brewing to refluffing.

Though...how exactly you get evasion through a feat? MoPM isn't Evasion, as far as I recall. And the only method I know requires you to play Generic classes, which makes the entire discussion about Swordsages, Warblades, Rogues, Fighters, Wizards and Clerics entirely pointless.

It was just an idea that I was gonna go with so I could add Phoenix Mage, but okay... It seems like a good idea , but if you disagree, by all means disagree. At high Epic levels of Play Initiative doesn't exactly hold much ground since you have people using Contingent Celerities into Contingent Time Stops, into Contingent Contingencies to reset these Contingencies and then trigger Contingent Teleport Through Times to kill the guy before he ever thinks of killing you and then his Contingent Teleport Through Time triggers which kicks him back in time to do the exact same thing and so on and so forth until HD+1 contingencies have gone off. Hit Die actually means something in Epic :smallbiggrin:

Getting through Warblade would be a bit better, if the idea is to get into JPM. What I wonder is what you seek in JPM aside from advancing caster levels and get some more maneuvers (unless you advance them before going Epic, in which case why bother with Cleric spellcasting anyways if you're not gonna get it until very late?). I don't see Elminster using the class features, and given what he faces, I don't think he'll be pulling off a Bounding Assault, Burning Blade or even Pouncing Charge any time soon...

Firechanter

2012-10-27, 05:49 AM

Less Quote Fighting, more Bad NPCs, please.

tiercel

2012-10-27, 06:21 AM

Just another random example: Malconvoker (Complete Scoundrel)

Wow. Where do we start?

I suppose we could start with why you'd want to play an elf cleric in particular, but whatever, NPC. Probably a little more worth asking might be how a CR 12 NPC is supposed to survive with 38hp and AC 16. (That's right folks, this guy is wearing leather armor +2.)

For some reason, though, Mr. I-Could-Probably-Get-Insta-Ganked-By-One-Of-My-Own-Summons has seen fit to be wielding a +1 holy heavy mace. Not the worst weapon in the world, sure, but with 38hp and AC 16 at 12th level, and a physical stat array of Str 10 Dex 13 Con 8, this guy probably shouldn't probably even be alive, much less anywhere near melee.

For whatever reason, he's decided that it would be cool to take 8 levels of cleric before PrCing, instead of the minimum 5. I guess he's just not that interested in the higher level PrC abilities? (Or he wants to turn undead at cleric level 8 as a 12th level character, see stats below.)

He's carrying a potion of resist energy(fire), which is awesome, since he could cast the spell more effectively, of course, or if he wanted a cheap low level backup he could just use a scroll for half the cost.

The feats he's chosen (other than the PrC prereqs) are: Iron Will (for a cleric-based build), Persuasive (yes, OK, it boots his Bluff skill a bit but, seriously?), and Run (which given the rest of his build seems to be his smartest tactical option).

I haven't checked his skill points because frankly the build is already depressing, let's just skip to his entire stat array:

Str 10 Dex 13 Con 8 Int 13 Wis 14 Cha 17

Great job boosting Cha all to heck, because you know, let's "optimize" Turn Undead with the Sun Domain (going so far as to actually memorize eagle's splendor), and then PrC out into a class that doesn't advance Turn. It's not like Dex and Int aren't usually dump stats for cleric, let's make those higher scores instead. Abysmal Str and Con contraindicate dumping his NPC gear allowance into a melee weapon.

Forget all that. Wis 14. He runs off cleric casting, doesn't even have a Wisdom boosting item. He literally cannot cast his 5th and 6th level spells. (Much less his 7th-level scroll.)

I'm no Iron Chef, much less some kind of TO wizard, but you have got to be freaking kidding me. This guy is an example of How Not to Build a Character. Actually inserting him into even a beer-and-pretzels campaign (much less mid-op or high-op) is a tragicomic travesty that can only end with PCs looting his relatively nice mace and a bunch of vendor trash off his corpse.

Arcanist

2012-10-27, 06:46 AM

=>T.G. Oskar

I dunno you, but I'm not worried about the wall of text, but rather how I feel we're basically flying into nerdrage for the imperative need to prove someone wrong over the Internet. I usually debate in walls of text anyways, so...

I am deeply sorry for how I acted in my last comment. I am just incredibly passionate about the Realm, but not passionate enough to actually discuss Realmlore on Candlekeep. Sorry if I nerdraged at you...

I take as basis the "[...], Elminster has access to incredible resources and can acquire or make almost any nonartifact item he might need, given time". Scrolls are non-artifacts so, given time, he can have access to virtually all spells. I can understand why there's no spellbook for Elminster: the DM decides which spells he has prepared. He builds the spellbook. Since he can access all non-artifact items given time (and he has had quite a lot of time), it's natural to assume he should have had at least once a copy of each scroll in the DMG, which amounts to basically every spell in the PHB.

That is quite a stretch, but it is reasonable to assume I suppose. I was just riding you on the whole spell thing because I thought it was silly.

Though, I could have sworn I saw it once. Or, at least, that's the common conception with each important wizard/cleric NPC. Heck, clerics lack their prepared spells as well, if you look at the ELH.

Quite right, but eh. That really wasn't a SERIOUS argument on my part. :smalltongue:

Actually, my answer is "I couldn't give a rat's darned buttocks about Elmi(na)ster", but since he's the topic of the entire discussion...the only answer I could think is "he's Mr. Greenwood's avatar". I recall he identifies with Elminster more than any other character. Note that Elminster has hints of favoritism, bordering Mary Sue territory if only because he's died a few times, gone to Hell and had its deity essentially annihilated.

Quite right.

True, he should be ONE of the most powerful. There are far more powerful spellcasters around. I take you recall that I don't favor the Realms, and this is one reason: there's epic characters of essentially every level. Take some time, and you'll find epic warblades, swordsages, crusaders, samurai, hexblades, swashbucklers, spellthieves, ninja, scouts, marshals, healers, warmages, warlocks, wu jen, archivists, dread necromancers, binders, shadowcasters, and even truenamers. I take I have forgotten one or two other classes, probably psionics and Artificer (but the latter I can wave on "it's an Eberron class").

Quite right again. I assure you, most of them will be Ancient and most likely have the Webbed into History feat or something, but eh... Surely in the Realm you are more likely to find a High leveled everything (most likely Epic of course).

In Eberron, all epics are either sealed (Rakshasa Rajahs), holed in one continent (Argonessen; you can debate about Sarlona), or out of the plane (Daelkyr from Xoriat, most outsiders). Oh, or dead (Titans and Primordial Giants). The highest characters you can deal with are usually mid-level, so by the time you reach high level you feel already going beyond what any character can pull off.

Ironically enough that is one of the things I hate about Eberron. I love mid-level play, but I occasionally enjoy Epic level action, because it effectively turns into Cosmic, 3 dimensional chess Apploosa Rules (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ixaJ3StEC0), where as with Eberron you're just playing 3 dimensional chess with some political elements. In FR your deterrent from starting a War is potentially pissing off an Epic Spellcaster and him razing your entire Empire into dust, where as with Eberron your deterrent is the fact that you don't have enough supplies to actually do it...

If I recall correctly, Mystra basically pushed him into learning Wizardry full time. That said, it's recalling: you may probably correct me on the idea that he has access to higher level Cleric spells in the stories.

Actually in most of the stories he is Magic-Less. You would seriously be more accurate in stating out Elminster as a straight Fighter at how much magic he uses in his stories :smallsigh:

What I debate is the use of the Sublime Way, because it makes no sense by means of fluff. If you insist that's Stormwind, then I guess I'll have to claim myself as guilty, but if you're playing the game and you're meant to be the heroes and the guys who mastered the secret disciplines with a lot of effort, the last thing you want is a cheater of Mystra making you feel bad because he can do maneuvers better than you. He'd already be a powerhouse with Mystic Theurge and all those levels. Initiate of Mystra and Invoke Magic would essentially make him a threat even on the places where Mystra has no dominion. That already makes him a credible threat: I mean, just by having Epic Spellcasting, he already won the game. You don't need initiator levels on top of that just because. Also, what would come first: Mystic Theurge, or JPM? I believe this last one to be a bit more important, because it implies how E would progress during his travels and adventures: does he trains further on his maneuvers while sacrificing his divine magic potential, or does he ignores his initiating abilities to become a more straightforward powerhouse through Divine Power + Divine Metamagic + Persistent Spell + infinite Nightsticks (which he gets through his infinite resources) just for starters and then stack as many Consistencies and buffing spells as he can, eventually basically not being there while he ends battles in one round?

Mystic Theurge first of course. Honestly, I'd be willing to completely dump JPM. I admit that the Sublime Way is not the proper way to do Elminster right.

Finally, and I separate it: exactly what you look in Jade Phoenix Mage so as to refluff it? It doesn't get that much spellcasting ability, even if you've basically completed your progression. I don't see how the class features would fit: he'd be a SpellFire Wind Mage or something? I'd be careful on how I'd refluff the class, because the fluff would fit 'brewing better. (Mmm...Spellfire + Sublime Way...gives me an idea!)

Let me just get this out there before I forget: I encourage any improvements to Spellfire, because all of them suck... Seriously... ALL OF THEM.

Jade Phoenix Mage would be refluffed as more martial Knight of the Weave, but thinking back that idea doesn't even float right with me so eh :smallsigh:

Yes, I am aware about "Elmina" (that was his name when gender-swapped, no?). It's Mr. Greenwood pulling a Tiresias on his avatar. Sounds sorta kinky...then again, he's Mystra's boy-toy, so...

Just throwing this out there, but I remember one time in an old thread on this forum I stated that if you're an Epic level Wizard you better be getting some nooky from some sort of cosmic entity :smalltongue:

By the logic of "he becomes a Wizard after his priesthood", then it's best to suggest that he basically abandoned progressing his Cleric levels and went full Wizard. That'd suggest precluding MT from his list of choices, though it is plausible (not a wide chasm to leap, in any case).

Again; you're the one that suggests he was built to become a Mystic Theurge. IMO, he's a very powerful Wizard (though the build doesn't represent that; were it by Greenwood, he'd stat it as "Elminster always appears out of nowhere and pulls a deus ex machina to win", but the devs had to resort to mechanics to explain it without caring about optimization) who was a brigand before being caught by Mystra. The priest(ess) thing just adds to the dip.

I'll merge these two for all intensive purposes since I can probably resolve them with the same thing: I believe that if a Player takes Cleric levels and then goes out to take Wizard levels, that he/she should pretty much just merge the classes and play as a Theurge which signifies study in both fields of magic. My views on magic are somewhat... different then most people to say the least... Divine Theurgy, Arcane Spellcasting, Psionic Manifesting, whatever name for the Art you decide to call it, it remains just that. The Art. You can call a shade of red a different color, but it will still be red at the end of the day. :smalltongue: Might be a little naive of me, but it's just a thought on the matter.

No, a brigand can be anything from Rogue 1 to Rogue X/Fighter X to Swashbuckler X to Warblade X/Factotum X. Fluff-wise, he was a brigand: I doubt a brigand has access to techniques that are basically taught in very specific places and that he couldn't learn on his own. Unless you suggest that he can learn things on his own.

Regardless of location martial arts will develop if given enough time and enough people. You don't even have to call it the Iron Heart discipline which has been passed down for 500 years, by over a thousand acolytes, you can just call it "Taking a punch and moving on". :smalltongue:

The Fighter level is so that he can use that longsword and probably start with a slightly bigger amount of HP... Probably... Starting as Rogue makes more sense, tho.

GO WITH FACTOTUM INSTEAD! Not as good of a Hit Die, but you get the same results in the long run :smalltongue:

The opposite, maybe? If I recall correctly, the Stormwind fallacy can be approached through the roleplayer side ("the fluff is sacred, you shouldn't change anything!") and from the optimizer side ("play a Wizard and then go Archmage and Incantatrix; it nets you a wider list of spells! I know you want to be a blaster and you were already aiming for Mailman, so what? Wizard is better!").

... Minor nitpick (this will drive me crazy unless I do it), but Wizard/5 Incantrix/10 Archmage/5 is what you're looking for... Sorry...

Indeed there is a certain point where Optimization becomes to much and must be toned down a little to retain the original characters design, however to little optimization and the character matter as well be running around with 20 levels of commoner :smalltongue:

Again, I don't care much about Elminster. I don't want him ruining my game because, even if he can't take some of the Epic spellcasters around, he still can mop anything on the Monster Manual just by sneezing, so why I'm adventuring in any case? Just wait until El, or Drizzt, or the Simbul, or Storm, or any of the high-level NPCs finish the quest! I mean, it doesn't take them less than a round to pull off, so it's not like they need proxies OR worry about their enemies taking that same amount of time to ruin their plans!

I'm only offering to use this NPC if absolutely necessary (i.e. your party wants to fight him/her). I've actually used that Karsus before... was quite impressive to see my players willing to fight The Archwizard :smallamused:

...Super Ninja-Theurge Elminster, on the other hand, is exactly what I hate about the Realms and taking it up to eleven. Why take someone who's Tier 1 and make it Tier -1, anyways? Just because he's the setting writer's pet?

No, because Fluff suggest that he is almost omnipowerful. Just throwing this out their but once you go Epic level as a T1 everything should be T-1 or you're not trying hard enough :smallamused:

Well, duh! Of course they need improvement! Were you thinking that I thought the PHB was perfect as-is, and that Fireball is the best because it can deal damage over an area?

Actually, I prefer using Enlarge Person and then chucking a Widened Maximized Fireball at the poor sap... Just a thought tho. Can't remember if Chain Chain Lighting actually works off the top of my head, but a lot of PHB spells are totally awesome... The Mundane stuff? Not so much :smalltongue:

...I don't like spellcasters that much; full spellcasters that is. I can stomach Clerics (I've said that I love Paladins, but I consider Clerics my vocation in any case), but I know I'd suck playing as a Wizard. That said, I feel that if I want to play a more martially-inclined divine warrior, I'll play a Crusader, and if I want a divine warrior with a spellcasting inclination, I'll play a Paladin. I know it'll take some time to buff the Paladin if I use the PHB version, but I find that more rewarding that taking it easy with the Crusader, particularly after the battle is over and I'm limited to my skill ranks and mundane stuff to deal with supernatural obstacles. Unless it's breaking a wall (yay Mountain Hammer!), maybe.

I actually like Spellcasters though... I find Mundane combat a little boring... However I must admit that I do love playing Skill Monkey which explains why i like the Artificer class. It has the right amount of Spellcasting and the Right amount of skills to be a skill monkey if required :smallsmile:

So how exactly someone with dual-9s on arcane and divine plus some degree of knowledge of maneuvers at 35th level can beat a character with at least 41 levels of Wizard, plus Sorcerer casting and Elder Brain RHDs? I presume you're probably looking at a 60th level character, at the very least. Numerically, and because of his access to two sources of arcane spells, Ioulaum could still bust Elminster just by Arcane Spellsurge.

Actually it would be 67th to be exact :smalltongue: but yes! You would be correct in the fact that Ioulaum could destroy Elminster... now just ask yourself the question of how Larloch would fair against him... :smalltongue:

Kinda beats the premise to the side. If you prefer to challenge your players through other threats, why buff the NPCs?

I like making Modules for these NPC's of great power for breaking into there headquarters... Just a personal hobby of mines :smalltongue:

"If I go with your suggestions". Hey, can't I give an idea on how to improve your prospective build? I guess that's the reason I'm nerdraging: we're assuming wrong things about each other. I find that the Int synergy makes levels in Factotum more cost-effective than Swordsage. But hey, Factotum is actually close to the fluff! They get decent combat skills, plus very effective skill monkey capabilities, and works far better than Swordsage at early levels in and out of combat. I mean, you were suggesting Warblade at first: my impression is that you went with Swordsage because you wanted to enter JPM and get Assassin's Stance, while Warblade gets nifty Int synergy, huge HD and a better recovery rate. You can enter through Warblade; it's just a wee bit more difficult than the norm.

3 levels of Factotum would be a little bit better as you have correctly recommended and dumping JPM levels since their is no longer a point in having them as levels... add 5 more levels to Mystic Theurge because it's awesome :smalltongue:

Try making your own Item of Legacy? It's as close as you get without busting a great deal of your WBL.

That, or start crafting Artifacts.

Though...how exactly you get evasion through a feat? MoPM isn't Evasion, as far as I recall. And the only method I know requires you to play Generic classes, which makes the entire discussion about Swordsages, Warblades, Rogues, Fighters, Wizards and Clerics entirely pointless.

Eww no. I hate Weapons of Legacy... :smallannoyed: I was referring to that Incarnum feat that allowed you to access a single Soulmeld and just have Elminster shape the Soulmeld that gives you evasion (Not to invested in Incarnum incase you haven't noticed...)

IMO, I'd like to depend less on magic items and more on my build, because I'll never know when I end having my items suppressed or disjunctioned (or...sundered...*shudder*). Then again, I prefer 'brewing to refluffing.

When I play as an Artificer you will most likely see me using more Infusions then anything else, because that is where the classes magic really shows up. Sure, being able to craft and make any Magical item is an amazing benefit, but that is mostly used if the DM has put me in a situation where Rocket Tag is the only way to avoid a TPK, but overall yes, I do agree with you on that. Depend on your characters merit more then on your characters equipment and you'll live to see tomorrow :smalltongue:

=>tiercel

Just another random example: Malconvoker (Complete Scoundrel)

Wow. Where do we start?

I suppose we could start with why you'd want to play an elf cleric in particular, but whatever, NPC. Probably a little more worth asking might be how a CR 12 NPC is supposed to survive with 38hp and AC 16. (That's right folks, this guy is wearing leather armor +2.)

For some reason, though, Mr. I-Could-Probably-Get-Insta-Ganked-By-One-Of-My-Own-Summons has seen fit to be wielding a +1 holy heavy mace. Not the worst weapon in the world, sure, but with 38hp and AC 16 at 12th level, and a physical stat array of Str 10 Dex 13 Con 8, this guy probably shouldn't probably even be alive, much less anywhere near melee.

For whatever reason, he's decided that it would be cool to take 8 levels of cleric before PrCing, instead of the minimum 5. I guess he's just not that interested in the higher level PrC abilities? (Or he wants to turn undead at cleric level 8 as a 12th level character, see stats below.)

He's carrying a potion of resist energy(fire), which is awesome, since he could cast the spell more effectively, of course, or if he wanted a cheap low level backup he could just use a scroll for half the cost.

The feats he's chosen (other than the PrC prereqs) are: Iron Will (for a cleric-based build), Persuasive (yes, OK, it boots his Bluff skill a bit but, seriously?), and Run (which given the rest of his build seems to be his smartest tactical option).

I haven't checked his skill points because frankly the build is already depressing, let's just skip to his entire stat array:

Str 10 Dex 13 Con 8 Int 13 Wis 14 Cha 17

Great job boosting Cha all to heck, because you know, let's "optimize" Turn Undead with the Sun Domain (going so far as to actually memorize eagle's splendor), and then PrC out into a class that doesn't advance Turn. It's not like Dex and Int aren't usually dump stats for cleric, let's make those higher scores instead. Abysmal Str and Con contraindicate dumping his NPC gear allowance into a melee weapon.

Forget all that. Wis 14. He runs off cleric casting, doesn't even have a Wisdom boosting item. He literally cannot cast his 5th and 6th level spells. (Much less his 7th-level scroll.)

I'm no Iron Chef, much less some kind of TO wizard, but you have got to be freaking kidding me. This guy is an example of How Not to Build a Character. Actually inserting him into even a beer-and-pretzels campaign (much less mid-op or high-op) is a tragicomic travesty that can only end with PCs looting his relatively nice mace and a bunch of vendor trash off his corpse.

I lol'd so hard...

Marlowe

2012-10-27, 06:48 AM

Hardly the worst example here, but the sample Hexblade in Complete Warrior would need an INT of something like 22 to get all the skills ranks he has. Hexblade, of course, is a CHR-based gish.

grarrrg

2012-10-27, 08:19 AM

Just another random example: Malconvoker (Complete Scoundrel)

For some reason, though, Mr. I-Could-Probably-Get-Insta-Ganked-By-One-Of-My-Own-Summons has seen fit to be wielding a +1 holy heavy mace. Not the worst weapon in the world, sure...
...
He's carrying a potion of resist energy(fire), which is awesome, since...

...
Abysmal Str and Con contraindicate dumping his NPC gear allowance into a melee weapon.

Gear can be sometimes handwaved as "Found it, better than what they had".
In the case of the Weapon, this could easily be the case.
Likewise, he may have found the Potion and may be keeping it for NON-combat situations or...something...to save on spell slots and such.

Basically, as long as the Gear doesn't outright HURT the character, it can be handwaved.
Now if he had 18+ DEX and was running around in NON-Mithral Full Plate, THAT would be a problem...

The feats he's chosen (other than the PrC prereqs) are: Iron Will (for a cleric-based build)...

Forget all that. Wis 14.

Well that explains why he took Iron Will then doesn't it?
:smalltongue:

Firechanter

2012-10-27, 09:52 AM

Sample NPCs like that really make me wonder _why_ the Wizards Did It.
Were they trying to make a point "look here, we're all about RP and not about optimization"?
Or were they actively trolling the customers?
Is it kind of a "We're not telling you how to use this class, friggin' figure it out yourself"?
Or did the authors really have _no_ idea of the game rules whatsoever?

Tengu_temp

2012-10-27, 12:05 PM

Urpriest

2012-10-27, 12:23 PM

Morty

2012-10-27, 12:46 PM

It's the last option. Wizards honestly believe that a fighter/sorcerer in equal proportions makes a viable gish, or that a cleric is a healbot who can also fight a little (but not as good as a fighter). Or at least they believed that when 3.5 was the most recent edition.

That, I think, is the answer to the hodge-podge way some iconic NPCs are built. The Forgotten Realms NPCs are the perfect example - they were written in the earliest days of 3.0, and it seems their designers didn't know what they were doing, for the most part. It sort of looks like they went all "wow, multiclassing!" and started to multiclass the crap out of every second NPC.

Arcanist

2012-10-27, 01:08 PM

One thing to keep in mind: Dweomerkeeper is a PrC for, among others, followers of Mystra. It requires (sans cheese/work) Cleric 3 for entry, but then progresses another stretch of casting. Mystic Theurge on Elminister would be weird because he doesn't tend to cast divine spells in the fiction. Dweomerkeeper, on the other hand, would make perfect sense.

Hmm... I hadn't actually thought of this actually :smallconfused: Great catch :smallbiggrin:

UGH! One of the things that bothers me is how little Elminster relies on magic in the fiction... It just hurts me a little bit to see such Arcane power going to waste... :smallfrown: which is why I thought "BAM! Swordsage!" Anyway... I've been up all night and I have to start a Campaign in about 5 hours... So I'm gonna hit the hay. Seriously, this discussion has been enlightening and it has offered me some epic insight into the character and how to reorganize him. I must apologize for derailing this thread though... :smallfrown:

tiercel

2012-10-27, 11:47 PM

Gear can be sometimes handwaved as "Found it, better than what they had".
In the case of the Weapon, this could easily be the case.
Likewise, he may have found the Potion and may be keeping it for NON-combat situations or...something...to save on spell slots and such.

Basically, as long as the Gear doesn't outright HURT the character, it can be handwaved.

Actually, I would argue that having a half-decent melee weapon is likely to get that character killed. If he's silly enough to think he should actually enter melee with that mace, 38hp, AC 16 without significant other defenses is a recipe for death at 12th level. If he's NOT silly enough to enter melee, he should sell the mace, forget ever entering melee, and buy a freaking Wisdom periapt so he can *actually cast the summoning spells* that his PrC specializes in.

As for the leather +2, how common is that likely to be compared to, oh, a nonmagical chain shirt in most settings? (Or even, gods forbid, a mithral chain shirt?)

So I think the mace actually does hurt the character -- and at some point it's less a matter of does the gear hurt the character -- or does the opportunity cost hurt the character?

Perhaps more to the point, this character is UNUSABLE as printed in virtually any game. He would be a pathetic challenge not worthy of his CR, and as an ally would be likely to cost the party more in resources to keep him alive than he would bring in aid (his best positive contribution would be to be killed quickly, allowing PCs to amorally loot his mace).

In that sense, this is the opportunity cost of having this character printed in the book. It is a waste of space, since even an unoptimized build slapped together by someone reading the class for the first time and using nothing but Core and Complete Scoundrel would almost certainly be more effective at the role defined by the PrC.

grarrrg

2012-10-28, 12:54 AM

this character is UNUSABLE as printed

I agree with you there.
My reply was more intended to be a "general" reply.

My main point is that unless the equipment actively hurts the NPC, then it's 'OK'.

Yes, as you pointed out, there are either A: Better Items, or B: should be SOLD for better items.
But as far as Prebuilt NPC's go, unless they are wearing the "Girdle of Self-Strangulation", then it doesn't really matter to rip on the Equipment that they have.

As for the Equipment they SHOULD but DON'T have....

AntiTrust

2012-10-28, 01:23 AM

Actually, I would argue that having a half-decent melee weapon is likely to get that character killed. If he's silly enough to think he should actually enter melee with that mace, 38hp, AC 16 without significant other defenses is a recipe for death at 12th level. If he's NOT silly enough to enter melee, he should sell the mace, forget ever entering melee, and buy a freaking Wisdom periapt so he can *actually cast the summoning spells* that his PrC specializes in.

I always get the impression from the malconvoker that he loathes the creatures he summons/binds so I get the feeling that when not in combat he uses that holy mace to beat the living hell out of his summons/binds and its not like they can do anything about it, he just orders them to shut up and take it...for the good

Darius Kane

2012-10-28, 01:26 AM

I always get the impression from the malconvoker that he loathes the creatures he summons/binds so I get the feeling that when not in combat he uses that holy mace to beat the living hell out of his summons/binds and its not like they can do anything about it, he just orders them to shut up and take it...for the good
Unlikely. Malkonvokers cheat fiends into believing they are working for a bad guy.

AntiTrust

2012-10-28, 04:10 AM

Unlikely. Malkonvokers cheat fiends into believing they are working for a bad guy.

Fiends beat on eachother all the time, doesn't mean they still aren't the bad guys.

Darius Kane

2012-10-28, 04:20 AM

Fiends beat on eachother all the time, doesn't mean they still aren't the bad guys.
Not for no reason. And the holy weapon would tip the fiends off that they are being played. As would the beating. Sure, he can order them around, but they do have a chance of breaking free from his control, and even if not, they're not his slaves permanently, so they can come back for vengeance or just warn other fiends about him.
What I think is that the NPC Malconvoker has a holy weapon in case the fiends would turn on him. It's not much, but at least it's something.

Telok

2012-10-28, 05:36 AM

I honestly don't recall if there's any others from back then which survived as statted up NPCs though.

Several major players in Faerun and other old settings are the original characters of Gygax and others at his table. The characters developed over the very original rules through about the early AD&D era. When 3.+ came out they were then statted with exactly the resources available when the books they are in were published. Sometimes with the same classes and levels they had had in the previous editions.

See, in AD&D a level in ranger got you the good TWF with no penalties to your attacks. A single level in thief got you the thief-only skills and a wizard wasn't hurt by taking a level or two of fighter if he had a good Con. So some of those guys were statted up based on what the character walked in the door with, which would have worked in an earlier version of the game but didn't do so well with the changed rules. Like the time I tried to port in a Str-paladin from 3.5 to 4e before the 4e Complete Divine had been published, the character had been turned into crap by the new rules.

Of course none of this applies to the crappy NPCs in the Complete Foo books and elsewhere. Those are just bad.

You really want to look at what was available to the writers at the time when the NPCs were written up. Save the worst criticism for the ones that are horrible by those standards.

Besides, it's not like you ever killed Eleminster and Drizz-poo on accident during a Spelljammer campaign.

Necroticplague

2012-10-28, 11:19 AM

I beleive that their is a class based around graft called fleshsomething.Requirements are graft flesh feat, some spellcasting ability, and 4 ranks in heal. The example character has all these. Ignoring the fact that the prerequisite feat has a prerequisite of its own:10 rank in heal, which the example doesn't have (sory, AFB so I'm being pretty vague).

Coidzor

2012-10-28, 12:02 PM

Fleshwarper (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050408a&page=10). Though the awkward about the feat isn't evident because they withheld the feat in the online release.

eggs

2012-10-28, 12:06 PM

Alternate interpretation: Maybe every illegal entry like that (ie. half of them) is a demonstration of early entry tricks by the designers. Clearly, this is nothing but support for Dusk Giant and Rebuilding shenanigans as RAI. :smalltongue:

Kazyan

2012-10-28, 01:30 PM

Picking semirandomly: Order of the Bow Initiate. (*looks at fluff, rolls eyes*) Let's see what this NPC, Garrick, does.

- Fighter 5/Order of the Bow Initiate 8. And a half-elf; way to not leverage that "Favored Class: Any", guys.

- Stats are solid. Str 14 and positive Con mod. He even has a pair of +2 Gloves of Dexterity on top of an 18.

- The skills are kinda wrong. Int 10 and Craft (Bowmaking) +4. With the minimum requirement of 5 Ranks, he should have another point. Same deal with Knowledge (Religion) being one short. I think he was originally supposed to have Int 8 or 9. Ride +17 doesn't make sense if he can only have 16 ranks and is rocking Cha 10. He seems to have 32 ranks in total if we count the prereqs as filled, though, so that at least is good.

- In addition to prereq feats and feats from his PrC, he has Manyshot (yes!), Mounted Combat ('kay), Sharp-Shooting (umm), and Weapon Specialization (oh come on).

- Acceptable gear.
- - +3 composite longbow with proper strength bonus. Cool. Also arrows.
- - +2 leather armor. His Dex mod isn't high enough that a +1 studded leather armor wouldn't do the same, but whatever.
- - +1 greatsword. He's got a decent strength and full BAB...no melee feats, but this doesn't make me mad.
- - Lesser bracers of archery. Good pick.
- - Gloves of Dexterity +2. I mentioned it earlier, but, very good pick.
- - 2 lesser arrows of undead slaying. Not going to last very long, but when your class gives you precision damage, this is a good backup.
- - Heavy warhorse. No comment.

Gerrick isn't optimized, but fine for a beer-and-pretzels game. I mean, +23 to hit and 30+ damage even without full attacking; that will get some attention.

Picking semirandomly again: Holt Warden, form Complete Lack of Playtesting Champion. Let's look at Hasayla. (If anyone hasn't read the Holt Warden PrC yet, do it. It's hilarious; it's like they thought the druid wasn't even close to nature-iffic enough.)

- Druid 5/Holt Warden 10. This is an excellent jumpoff point; yum yum Wildshape.

- I'm not an expert on the Druid spell list, but the typical prepared spells are intelligently selected. Entangle, Wall of Thorns, Greater Dispel Magic, Sleet Storm. A little too much healz (especially when she has a class feature that can do healz) but I'm impressed otherwise.

- Potions of barkskin and bear's endurance, when the former has been prepared. Srsly?

- Whoa. Those ability scores. Before racial mods and stat boosts, that's a 47 PB. Stat priority was Wisdom = Charisma > Dexterity = Constitution > Strength > Intelligence. This order makes sense; you'll see why in a moment. Positive Con mod gets a thumbs-up, too.

- Feats: Brew Potion (sigh), Craft Magic Arms and Armor (umm), Leadership (OMG. Reason for high Charisma found), Negotiator (nope sorry just take SF [Diplo]; you're not even maxing Sense Motive), Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot (elf; what did you expect?)

- Gosh look at that pile of skill points. Concentration +9...really, 8 Ranks at level 15? Diplomacy +23. I concur. Sense Motive has 4 Ranks, which is a letdown when you consider the synergy bonus missed for that ginormous Diplomacy score. Generally solid things to put points in outside of those.

- Her swag is pitiable. No stat-boosting equipment. +1 hide armor of silent moves (I understand it being Hide armor, but Silent Moves when you only have 1 rank and an ACP? Lol?) and a +1 longbow, and a random ring of fire resistance for no discernible reason.

- Fox companion. When your animal companion is 10 levels behind, you want a scouter. (Again, why does Hasayla need armor of Silent Moves?)

Dang. That was nice. Fix the gear and tweak the skill point pile a bit, and you have a competent character.

*flip flip flip* Legacy Champion. Let's check out Marrush.

- And the class he's advancing class features in is...Fighter. AHAHAHA That's kind of awesome in its failure. Enjoy your reduced BAB, the thing that otherwise supposedly makes up for a lack of features! At least being a half-orc helps.

- His stats are good. Everything in the physical stats, mostly stength. His Dex mod of +1 works will with his full plate, and he has a Con mode of +2. And that big freaking Strength score is boosted by gauntlets of ogre power.

- Feats: Blind-Fight ('kay), Power attack and Cleave (nice!), Dodge (really?), the Weapon Focus line all the way to Greater Weapon Spec (I know you need more to-hit, but for the love of...), Improved Initative (good), Iron Will (facepalm), Least and Lesser Legacies (class features), and Skill Focus (Knowledge [History]) (WHY!?)

- Skill Points: A whole slew of cross-class points in K:History, and some in Intimidate. No comment.

- His gear is mostly bling for Armor Class, though he spend it in the most efficient way. Whatever. AC 27; 28 with Dodge. Maybe that will get him somewhere. Cloak of resistance and gauntlets of ogre power are good picks. He's also got his legacy weapon but that's pointing out the obvious.

Come to think of it, Marrush is stacking to-hit out the wazoo with his legacy weapon's Bloodlust ability and Weapon Focus lines, and he's got Power Attack. This isn't bad, but it's not good either.

I'm getting different readings from the rest of you. It's less "completely terrible" and more "big numbers are better, but we don't know the good ways to get them".

Sith_Happens

2012-10-28, 04:23 PM

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc6dlsynJa1roup2jo1_1280.jpg

You leave a thread for two days...

Novawurmson

2012-10-28, 05:06 PM

Second Darkness campaign, premade characters in the back. Druid with Wis 15. Entangle DC: 12. -_-

willpell

2012-10-28, 10:06 PM

To be fair, while CA does say a Warlock has to start as chaotic or evil, there's nothing in the class that indicates you have to stay that way. Therefore, by RAW there's nothing stopping you from changing your Warlock's alignment to whatever you feel like after character creation.

You are required to meet the class's alignment prerequisite any time you take a level in that class, so a Warlock who changes to a prohibited alignment cannot gain further Warlock levels until he is Evil or Chaotic again. (Which means that the "Ex-Bards" section in the PHB is redundant.)

Flickerdart

2012-10-28, 10:52 PM

willpell

2012-10-28, 11:05 PM

I can't find it because search isn't working, but Curmudgeon has very frequently pointed out that you must meet ALL prerequisites for a class in order to take a level in that class. To take a level of Bard, you must be nonlawful; that's the only specification, which is why the Ex-Bard text is redundant (though it was proper for "reminder text" to be included for clarification, since this is the corebook; Complete Arcane is not a corebook and thus doesn't provide such clarification for warlocks). Other classes such as druid and paladin cause you to lose existing class features for violating the alignment, instead of simply being able to gain more. Classes for which that is true are the only ones which actually need the "Ex-whatever" section; for all others, there is no special consequence upon changing alignment, but when you next level-up, you must choose a class for which you qualify based on your alignment at that time.

Arcanist

2012-10-28, 11:08 PM

You are required to meet the class's alignment prerequisite any time you take a level in that class, so a Warlock who changes to a prohibited alignment cannot gain further Warlock levels until he is Evil or Chaotic again. (Which means that the "Ex-Bards" section in the PHB is redundant.)

[citation needed]

Overwhelming evidence (all "Ex-class" entries in the game, of which in Core there is one for every class with an alignment requirement) suggests otherwise. Unless you can point me to RAW that states directly that all base classes with listed alignments cannot continue to advance in the class unless they adhere to those alignments, then what you are saying is a house rule that you are misrepresenting as a real rule.

You don't get to arbitrarily declare that a consistent rules entry from a swathe of classes is actually just reminder text, especially when WotC has never felt the need to put in reminder text on that scale.

By the writer of Complete Arcane himself. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19520666/Warlock_Faq_by_Rich_Baker)

Q: What does happen if a Warlock changes his alignment to a restricted alignment?

A: I think I'd treat it like the monk's alignment restriction. If you change alignment to something incompatible with warlock, you can't gain more levels in warlock, but you keep all your warlock abilities. (If you change it back again later, I suppose you could resume your advancement.)

Flickerdart

2012-10-28, 11:44 PM

Arcanist

2012-10-29, 12:13 AM

"I think I would..." is about as far from RAW as you can get.

Wonderful. I respect an opinionated man. Fight to the end to prove yourself right! :smallsmile:

Marlowe

2012-10-29, 12:25 AM

But he's right. It's not in the rules.

Some classes have rules regulating what happens if they break alignment restrictions, others don't.

If you're in the don't category, you shouldn't need to bother.

And the notion that a person who draws their power source from some fey faint in their bloodline could suddenly lose it if they started putting money into the collection box instead of giving to beggars is not the sort of thing I want my PCs to worry about.

Zaq

2012-10-29, 12:46 AM

Take a look at Tobilar. He's the Bereft on pg. 211 of Tome of Magic. Specifically, he's a Fighter 10/Bereft 1. Because, you know, that makes sense. (In addition to perhaps being the weakest PrC in the entire chapter, it's also got Wizard BAB. Just throwing that out there.) He's a pretty generic unoptimized Fighter, aside from his inexplicable interest in Truenaming. Great Cleave, Improved Sunder, and so on. He has Improved Initiative, but his init score is still +1, so no idea where THAT went.

He's also got a +20 Truespeak mod. I will mention that he's CR 11, so against an even-level enemy, he succeeds on a Truespeak check by rolling a 17. If he does so, the only thing he can do is use the Syllable of Detachment, which will inflict a –2 on his target's attacks, saves, and checks for one round. Which is totally worth the effort at level 11. That is, of course, a 20% chance of making your opponent have a 10% worse chance of doing something. For one round. Awesome.

I'm honestly not sure which is worse, a level 15 Fighter, or a Fighter 10/Bereft 5. (Tobilar is just a Fighter 10/Bereft 1, but give him time.)

I will, however, applaud the artist for including his Lesser Amulet of the Silver Tongue in the image.

Flickerdart

2012-10-29, 12:59 AM

Wonderful. I respect an opinionated man. Fight to the end to prove yourself right! :smallsmile:
I don't need to fight for anything. Not only is the writer's quote not in the book, the writer is saying "this is how I would personally rule, I think" not "this is how I intended it to be from the start and I'm sure of it". As evidence, it is utterly meaningless. As a suggestion, it's worth considering.

AntiTrust

2012-10-29, 12:59 AM

Not for no reason. And the holy weapon would tip the fiends off that they are being played. As would the beating. Sure, he can order them around, but they do have a chance of breaking free from his control, and even if not, they're not his slaves permanently, so they can come back for vengeance or just warn other fiends about him.
What I think is that the NPC Malconvoker has a holy weapon in case the fiends would turn on him. It's not much, but at least it's something.

I think it could be for both, what better than a holy weapon to deal with your hard to train fiends. In terms of coming back for vengeance, well that's going to be a concern regardless, its stressed as a problem within the text of the prc, but I'll end it here, sort of off topic from the original topic.

Arcanist

2012-10-29, 01:58 AM

I don't need to fight for anything. Not only is the writer's quote not in the book, the writer is saying "this is how I would personally rule, I think" not "this is how I intended it to be from the start and I'm sure of it". As evidence, it is utterly meaningless. As a suggestion, it's worth considering.

Alright so if the writer walked up to you and told you "I regret not doing [This] for the book, so you should reasonably play it like that." You would respond by telling him "Well it's NOT in the book so whatever you have to say should be ignored." (A very extreme example, but it seems to capture a popular stance on this forum quite nicely if I say so myself.)

I've heard people throw around the term RAI (Rules as Intended), but most usually scoff at it because of the "powerful" argument "You have no idea what the writer intended", but here we have is an example of what the writer actually intended and you (and most likely everyone else) is going to ignore it by saying it was merely a suggestion. Alrighty then; Lets just pretend this short discussion never happened and get back to the topic at hand. :smallsigh:

Marlowe

2012-10-29, 02:19 AM

Alright so if the writer walked up to you and told you "I regret not doing [This] for the book, so you should reasonably play it like that." You would respond by telling him "Well it's NOT in the book so whatever you have to say should be ignored." (A very extreme example, but it seems to capture a popular stance on this forum quite nicely if I say so myself.)

I've heard people throw around the term RAI (Rules as Intended), but most usually scoff at it because of the "powerful" argument "You have no idea what the writer intended", but here we have is an example of what the writer actually intended and you (and most likely everyone else) is going to ignore it by saying it was merely a suggestion. Alrighty then; Lets just pretend this short discussion never happened and get back to the topic at hand. :smallsigh:

...right, so I'll just go add a good fort save and multiple uses of the Curse to my current Hexblade character based on what the writer said unofficially afterward. And then pretend it's a rule?

We do what the rules say. What the writer claimed he intended afterwards in an unofficial interview does not equal rules.

And please stop patronising people who disagree with you. Your tone is not the best.

Venger

2012-10-29, 02:40 AM

...right, so I'll just go add a good fort save and multiple uses of the Curse to my current Hexblade character based on what the writer said unofficially afterward. And then pretend it's a rule?

We do what the rules say. What the writer claimed he intended afterwards in an unofficial interview does not equal rules.

And please stop patronising people who disagree with you. Your tone is not the best.

while stuff like the hexblade fix isn't by any means RAW, it's certainly nice to have options available.

a good example for me of when non-RAW stuff can be of more value than just popular consensus is probably that big FAQ thread they had on BoVD a few years back. it wasn't even a case of "rules around ability xyz are confusing" more like "rules around xyz do not exist" so it was less a case of "does it work this way or that way" and more a case of "we really have nowhere to go from here.

knowing that RAI was for disciples of mephistopheles can use hellfire blast 1/day/class level is actually kind of nice to know. I might not necessarily use it in my game, but as is, they can just use it as often as they like. any restriction imposed by me running a game without access to the errata wouldn't really have a basis in the RAW like certain other issues do.

honestly, while designers don't always have the best ideas "off the record" as it were, it's sometimes just as helpful to get their input so we know how we don't want to apply fixes.

willpell

2012-10-29, 02:46 AM

But he's right. It's not in the rules.

As someone recently pointed out, it's not in the rules that humans need to breathe oxygen, only that they need to breathe something. Likewise, it is in the rules that a character at -1 hit points can be healed by making him start drowning. Quit claiming that everything in the rules is right and everything not in the rules is wrong. It quickly passes the point of sanity, so just stop doing it, and admit that some amount of common-sense interpretation is absolutely necessary to ever accomplish anything. Exactly how much is certainly worth arguing about, but "that's not raaaaaw!" is not an excuse to terminate every such argument as requiring no further discussion. We don't need citations, we just need to use our heads and figure out what seems reasonable.

And the notion that a person who draws their power source from some fey faint in their bloodline could suddenly lose it if they started putting money into the collection box instead of giving to beggars is not the sort of thing I want my PCs to worry about.

They won't lose anything, they just won't be able to gain anything. Taking more levels of warlock means tapping into the inner source of your dark and/or wild powers, drawing forth new abilities from the wellspring of your arcane energies. If you're busy being disciplined, generous, or totally pragmatic, and you never give in to a destructive or selfish or simply mercurial whim, then you're like a Drunken Kung-Fu Master who's on the wagon - you still know all the moves you've ever practiced and can perform them competently enough by rote, but you can't come up with new movies that rely on you being sauced when you have only a distant memory of what it's like to be sauced.

You need inspiration that comes from the root of your powers in order for those powers to evolve; if you want to stick to the straight and narrow path, you'll have to develop other skillsets for a while. (There are some peculiarities about multiclass penalties, BAB starting at 0 for non-fullbab classes, and various issues with Skills, but all of those are due to baked-in rigidities of the system, and you can probably talk a decent GM into working with you on getting around them, as long as it's clear you're not just being a munchkin and trying to get away with crap.)

I think it could be for both, what better than a holy weapon to deal with your hard to train fiends.

The problem is that if you're claiming to be Evil, you'd look like an idiot to carry a Holy Mace, as there's no way that it would be useful enough to be worth the negative level you take for holding it. So you'd be tipping off the fiends you're trying to con that you're almost certainly not what you say you are. Either you're Good or you're gimping yourself, and either way you lose the respect of your "minions" and quite possibly get attacked by them.

Arcanist

2012-10-29, 02:48 AM

...right, so I'll just go add a good fort save and multiple uses of the Curse to my current Hexblade character based on what the writer said unofficially afterward. And then pretend it's a rule?

We do what the rules say. What the writer claimed he intended afterwards in an unofficial interview does not equal rules.

The rules contradict each other time and time again (check with CustServ for more hilarious results). So I guess when an official remark on the Warlock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20050630a) directs the reader to that very thread it is still viewed as "unofficial". I've stated my views, supported them and was told I was wrong. I'm home :smallamused:

And please stop patronising people who disagree with you. Your tone is not the best.

I actually tried to drop the topic, but you decided to attack and somehow I'm the bad guy. Wonderful. If anything, I'm being cynical towards his stance, but as said. Let's drop this conversation and get back on topic shall we? (if you'd like to continue this please PM me your thoughts and opinions) :smallbiggrin:

Marlowe

2012-10-29, 03:21 AM

Arcanist

2012-10-29, 03:59 AM

You tried to drop the topic in a manner that dripped contempt for the opinion for your opponents. Implying they were beneath you. Even though we are right, and you are wrong.

There are no rules for what you say (there's nothing in that link that supports your argument. It says nothing whatsoever about alignment).

Therefore, I ask you to improve your manners.

EDIT: No, not going to sink to that level. I've proven my point, gave you my argument and my support for it and you still refuse to listen. I will not sink to the level of ad hominems. I believe we're done here.

Marlowe

2012-10-29, 04:09 AM

I agree. Because I am done feeding you.

Marlowe

2012-10-29, 05:09 AM

OOF! Thought I was done with this thread. Really done.

Venger:Yup, it's nice to know what people thought when they designed the classes. And I like to use that advice when it makes for a better game. I don't see alignment restrictions making for a better game. When I'm a PC, I play the straight and narrow. When I'm the DM, I like to say "sure, why not?".

We are supposed to be having fun after all.

Willpell: Nothing in the rules supports your interpretation, and neither will I as a DM. And really, that's all I have to say. When I PLAY a Warlock, I try to stay Chaotic.

Runestar

2012-10-29, 08:13 AM

I see the npc problem as two-fold.

1) Classed npcs are rarely ever worth 1-1 cr increase. Are you telling me that a fighter20 is comparable to a tarrasque or equivalently-cr'ed dragon? However, recalibrating their cr definitely falls into dm-fiat territory, which is outside Wotc's jurisdiction. A warrior9 is cr8? Um...a 9-HD white dragon with the same stats is just cr4...:smallconfused:

While we do have non-associated class rules, they tend to favour mostly spell casters. I am embarrassed to say that while I have a lot of criticisms, I have no ready answers. :smallfrown:

2) Some races/classes/prcs simply don't synergize with each other. You can't just slap a few classes together and expect them to just work. Elder evils has this bodak ranger/blackguard. A bodak stinks in combat, relying on it death gaze. You go slap on classes meant for melee, and which do nothing to augment its signature ability. The end result is a frankenstein monster that can't do anything properly for its theoretical cr.

I don't think there is any easy answer. The most obvious solution - don't built your character this way, may lead to less room for customisation. You want to focus on tricking a monster's sole strength, it risks becoming a 1-trick pony. Maybe mix and match different monster types to help make up for each other's weaknesses?

Perhaps what we can do is to start reworking some of their stat-blocks? It doesn't have to be over the top - even a simple fighter3/wizard9 becomes much more useful when converted to a fighter1/wizard5/eldritch knight6. Shall we start a new thread for this or do this here?:smallsmile:

Marlowe

2012-10-29, 08:27 AM

How about we just have an NPC-building contest, and submit all entrants for the use of any DM that cares to use them.?:smallsmile:

Starbuck_II

2012-10-29, 10:05 AM

The problem is that if you're claiming to be Evil, you'd look like an idiot to carry a Holy Mace, as there's no way that it would be useful enough to be worth the negative level you take for holding it. So you'd be tipping off the fiends you're trying to con that you're almost certainly not what you say you are. Either you're Good or you're gimping yourself, and either way you lose the respect of your "minions" and quite possibly get attacked by them.

UMD can trick an item so don't take the negative level. How do they knoiw he doesn't have it? (he doesn't but they don't know this)

Novawurmson

2012-10-29, 12:07 PM

How about we just have an NPC-building contest, and submit all entrants for the use of any DM that cares to use them.?:smallsmile:

I was planning on doing a homebrew NPC gallery for PF, but I wanted to make some examples first.

Sith_Happens

2012-10-29, 12:08 PM

So... Any more NPCs that don't meet their PrC requirements on time or are otherwise impossible in some way? Those are always fun. Or maybe I should treat "first derailed thread" as some kind of right-of-passage thing.

Sgt. Cookie

2012-10-29, 12:12 PM

Yes there is Sith.

The Bugsucker, the sample Symbiote in Savage Species, is illegal by both 3.0 AND 3.5. The Stirge is a Beast/Magical Beast, neither type is eligable for the symbiote template.

123456789blaaa

2012-10-29, 09:23 PM

Arcanist

2012-10-29, 09:31 PM

I wonder why so many of these NPC's are illegal? :smallconfused:. I mean... I could believe that some of the writers were just bad at the rules but the sheer amount of illegal NPC's is starting to stretch that theory. Making a character is not that hard. Plus alot of these were made with the prestige classes (for example) at the forefront of their minds. Its really strange that a lot of the sample NPC's in the books fail to qualify for the PRC's they're supposed to be representing.

There are plenty of reasons for why these NPC might have flaws in their build that would otherwise disqualify them. My personal favorite being that the characters were made before the classes were fully complete and were never updated to meet the prerequisites of the class. It's a stretch, but it IS a possibility. Since WoTC often leaps before it looks :smalltongue:

nedz

2012-10-29, 09:43 PM

The short answer is Editing.

I'm sure that the sample NPCs were legal at some point in the development of the class. I'm guessing that the class was tweaked before publication and they ran out of time to double check the sample NPC.

Marlowe

2012-10-29, 09:50 PM

There are plenty of reasons for why these NPC might have flaws in their build that would otherwise disqualify them. My personal favorite being that the characters were made before the classes were fully complete and were never updated to meet the prerequisites of the class. It's a stretch, but it IS a possibility. Since WoTC often leaps before it looks :smalltongue:

I'm fairly sure my extremely mild Hexblade example (not illegal or bad, just way too many skill ranks) from before indicates that they planned to give the HB more skill points than they actually did.

Arcanist

2012-10-29, 10:51 PM

I'm fairly sure my extremely mild Hexblade example (not illegal or bad, just way too many skill ranks) from before indicates that they planned to give the HB more skill points than they actually did.

Wouldn't be surprised to figure that the Developers had planned for the class to be a Skill Monkey at first and then figured "Nah, we'll just dump it as a Duskblade wannabe".

Tragic really.

Marlowe

2012-10-29, 11:18 PM

Twilightwyrm

2012-10-30, 01:37 AM

willpell

2012-10-30, 08:00 AM

Wouldn't be surprised to figure that the Developers had planned for the class to be a Skill Monkey at first and then figured "Nah, we'll just dump it as a Duskblade wannabe".

I'm pretty sure the Duskblade came later.

Marlowe

2012-10-30, 08:13 AM

I'm pretty sure the Duskblade came later.

It did. But the point still stands. The Hexblade has some nice flavour of its own but is underpowered and even a little mechanically dysfunctional. "Failed Duskblade" sums it up reasonably well. "Prototype Duskblade written before we knew what we were doing" sums it up perfectly.

Runestar

2012-10-30, 09:12 AM

It's noticable that the Hexblade and Warlock are two classes with strangely low skill points relative to their number of class skills.

Warlock doesn't suffer too much here, simply because Warlock is stat-independent, can afford a reasonable INT without gimping more core abilities too much and are supposed to be mostly human anyway.

Hexblade, on the other hand, needs good physical stats and CHR, so generally has to make INT a lower priority. Having so few skill points and so many useful class skills starts to hurt.

Hexblade was probably intended as a fighter alternative. Since fighters get 2+int mod skill points, hexblade followed suit. Also, because this was so early in the 3.5e development cycle, certain novel features (like ability to cast spells in armour, or heck, even an improved familiar with full bab) might have been deemed too powerful in theory, and so the rest of the abilities weakened to compensate (but turned out to be non-issues in actual gameplay).

Dusk Eclipse

2012-10-30, 09:44 AM

Hexblade was probably intended as a fighter alternative. Since fighters get 2+int mod skill points, hexblade followed suit. Also, because this was so early in the 3.5e development cycle, certain novel features (like ability to cast spells in armour, or heck, even an improved familiar with full bab) might have been deemed too powerful in theory, and so the rest of the abilities weakened to compensate (but turned out to be non-issues in actual gameplay).

Hexblade's designer Mike Mearls actually stated just that^here is the quote (taken from the Hexblade Handbook)

The hexblade suffers a little because he came on the scene relatively early in 3.5's life. As R&D pushes the boundaries of the game, we learn that some things we thought were risky or potentially broken aren't. Other times, we learn things that look fine don't actually work in play. Armored mages fall into the first category. Them seem really powerful, but in the long run they aren't. Spells and magic items allow an unarmored mage to build great defenses. The spell mage armor is as good as medium armor, and its duration allows most mages to keep it active at all times. If you compare the hexblade to the duskblade from PH 2, you can see how the thinking has changed. If you want to boost the hexblade, I'd try the following changes:

Good Fortitude save
Curse ability usable 1 + the hexblade's Cha modifier per day
Curse ability usable as a swift action
Curse ability does not count as used if the target makes his saving throw
Ability to cast in light or medium armor and while carrying a light shield or buckler
At 6th level, the hexblade can cast one hexblade spell per day as a swift action, as long as its original casting time is a standard action or faster. He gains an additional use of this power at levels 8, 11, 14, and 18.

The key to the hexblade is his curse ability, but it's a little un-fun to have it so limited in use. The hexblade also has trouble casting spells and using his melee attacks, so shifting spells to swift actions fits in with the idea of an armored mage. (These are by no means official. They're just off the top of my head changes I'd consider making.)

Emphasis mine.

Seltsamuel

2012-10-30, 11:25 AM

The reason why most of the NPCs are illigal bothers me, too. This happens in other P&P rpgs as well. For example The Black Eye, a good known german pen and paper. There exist NPCs with feats they can´t have. The best thing, NPC and feat are written by the same author :smallconfused:

Mystral

2012-10-30, 01:43 PM

That RPG is called "The Dark Eye" in english, Seltsamuel, as a black eye in englisch is what a german would call "Blaues Auge".

Zaq

2012-10-30, 02:24 PM

Marlowe

2012-10-30, 02:33 PM

I think it's more meant to be an alternative Paladin than an alternative Fighter. The similarities are too many for me to chalk up to coincidence. Curse and Smite happen at (about) the same levels, Arcane Resistance is just a worse Divine Grace, Mettle pairs up with Divine Health, the familiar pairs up with the special mount (the familiar comes one level sooner, granted, but it's also much less cool out of the box), they get spells at the same rate . . . clear Paladin-analogue, in my mind. The point stands either way, of course, since both Paladins and Fighters get crappy skill points, but hey.

I believe (and please forgive me for my reductionism. This was a while ago. I didn't know much.) that when I had to sum up the Hexblade to somebody who'd never heard of it I said "They're exactly like Paladins. Only instead of being self-righteous, dictatorial, and divine they're selfish, sulky, and arcane".

And now I'm playing one.:smalleek: