How do YOU play...? Spellcasters!

[Krazzman]

Hello again Playground,

quite some time of being here and asking stupid questions... well you know those Optimization advice and more not sooo serious builds and such stuff as well as some general stuff.

Upon the idea of maybe joining another group for weekend-gaming I reflected on what I had played over 6 years ago and how my "OP-Fu" advanced in those years.
I spotted a flaw in this. While I know quite some tricks now to make melee a tad more effective and fun to play I still don't have a clue what I should do with spellcasters. I played a few Sorcerers, Clerics, Wizards and such but my spell selection either was sub optimal (blasting and such) or I thought I made some deeply wrong decisions when it went to casters.
I want to change this and actually am planning about going for a Monk/Sorcerer setup if we are able to join the group or maybe going for alchemist (this is a PF round but my questions are of general nature).

This is a concern of how you play in terms of tactics regarding battle and everyday work as well as in playing to the "maximum capacity".

To the Basics I believe I have grasped.
So every character needs 8-Hours of sleep. Casters need those 8 hours uninterrupted and additionally between 15 minutes and one hour to prepare their spells.
As far as I recollect this fact can not be changed by anything.
Blasting Spells are not that effective when not highly optimized cheese is behind it. Battlefield Control and Buffing/Debuffing are the way to "win".

Now the thing is... most stuff is limited. Especially in the beginning of the adventuring carreer. Reserve Feats aren't available or the Domain/School/Bloodline powers don't have that much they can do at low levels...
I once played a Wizard from level 1 to 5... and I am stunned that he wasn't killed with his focus for Evocation blasting.

So to tackle my problems a better I tried to analyze myself reflecting on what I do when looking at spells to prepare. I get paralyzed. Too many options are available. How can I be sure that the spells I prayed for are any good? With Spontaneous casting this... is a slight bit offset but too many times it happened that I stood there thinking... "F***! if I could use that spell now we wouldn't have a problem!". The main problem I have is prepared casting and Metamagic. Both confuse and or paralyze me. I can't really decide which spells to pick, which to prepare and so on. This is going that far that I would say I would play a Wizard/Cleric at roughly T4 or lower.

In the early levels with Wizard/Sorcerer you are a glass canon either way you do it. Low hitdice and only willsave tend to do you no good, when you realize one kobold can kill you in one strike. Barring this should probably never occur but... well it does in our groups.

The thing is... I can't wrap my mind around how I should play a caster on at least T2 level of "skill" and how to optimize them. In 3.5 there are Prestige Classes. In Pathfinder... not so much. In 3.5 the rule is advance out of [Spellcasting class without Special Abilities other than Spells] as soon as possible without loosing caster levels. In PF? Well Wizard 20 is viable.

The thing is... I don't want to break campaigns but I want to contribute in a meaningful way and still have fun without too much bookkeeping (which repulsed me from artificer as much as I like crafting my own stuff and being imaginative).

So I would like to hear your thoughts about this and learn from you how you play and how you organize the "simple" things as selecting spells/feats/themes and so on.

Thanks in advance,
Krazzman

[CigarPete]

First, let me just say that blasting is not nearly as terrible as people here make it out to be. One way or another, that monster still needs to die. You can buff up the beatsticks and let them do it while you sit around and shoot off crossbow bolts, or take a spell or two and help out yourself.

Second, it sounds to me like you need to decide what it is that your caster should focus on. That will depend in large part on the other members of your party and what they can do. There are some utility spells that you should take regardless - Detect Magic, Message, Invisibility, Haste, Fly are all good examples for a Wizard/Sorcerer. But either way, decide what you want to be able to do and pick spells with that aim.

You should also seriously consider going with a spontaneous caster. There is a massive amount of customization available for either Sorcerer or Oracle in PF with the various bloodlines/mysteries that you can choose a role and fill it. But you still need to decide what that role will be.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

First off, are you planning on playing 3.5 or Pathfinder? That makes a tremendous amount of difference in the advice received.

I'll give you some basic 3.5 advice, and I'll let someone with more knowledge of Pathfinder give you advice there, if necessary.

First off, what books do you have access to? While both wizards and sorcerers can break the game straight out of Core, the splatbooks can help you make a balanced caster much easier that doesn't rely on rocket tag.

For example, the Beguiler is a very strong battlefield control specialist and skillmonkey class, and one of my go-to choices whenever these two roles come up in tandem. It's found in the PhB II, and if you want a spontaneous caster with full access to his entire spell list (which is limited to mostly two colleges and picks from others) then it's something to consider.

But if you want to work with your party rather than overshadow them, you have to ask yourself... what does this party need?

Is the party melee-heavy? You may wish to consider such spells as Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, and Enlarge Person as your spells you use to contribute to combat with.

Do they need battlefield control? Grease, Glitterdust, and Stinking Cloud. The (un)holy trinity of battlefield control and Save or Lose nerf-bats.

Worried about personal defense? Look no further than Mirror Image. Mage Armor is not very effective, you can eventually get +1 Mithral Chain Shirt of Twilight and do better. The Shield spell is nice, but unless you go into Abjurant Champion, it hurts your action economy too harshly to use it. Also pick up Phantom Steed, after a while it is basically Overland Flight out of a 3rd level slot when your steed starts flying around.

However, if you want to avoid outclassing the other players, there are some spells you need to -avoid-

Alter Self and the Polymorph Crew. Just... don't. Well, maybe Baleful Polymorph, but nothing else from the Polymorph subschool.

ANY spell from the Conjuration (Calling) subschool. Teleportation is nice, you get to be the party's taxi cab. Even Summoning is nice. But not Calling. It gets too broken too quickly.

As far as the rest of it... what kind of character do you want to play? Wizards and Sorcerers really are a 'do anything you want and get away with it' class, so what would you enjoy playing?

[Ketiara]

Detect Magic
why is this so good, what am I missing? (Not to steal your post!)
Im also playing my druid suppar so im taking a huge intrest in this op

[LordBlades]

A couple random thoughts that might help:

1) Open ended spells: look for them. Versatility is the name of the game for casters and the more application a spell has, the better it usually is. Take a look at two classics: Fireball and Polymorph. Suboptimality of blasting aside, Fireball does one thing: fire damage. If your problem can't be solved by applying fire damage to it, it's useless. Now take Polymorph: you can use it to turn into a melee brute and do damage, you can use it to turn into something that flies, swims, burrows and bypass various obstacles/encounters, you can use it to turn into something native to the place you're visiting and blend in etc. There's very very few situations where casting Polymorph wouldn't help.

2) No save or suck/suck even if you save: the more of those you have, the merrier. Some spells, like Solid Fog or Forcecage screw you regardless of what you do unless you posses the appropriate counters. The less your spells care about enemy defenses like saves and immunities, the wider their applicability and chances of success are.

3) Try to target as many different defenses as you can. If all your spells are [Mind Affecting] will or suck, as soon as you hit something with immunity to [Mind Affecting] and/or a high will save your usefulness gets drastically reduced. Try to have stuff targeting all saves, Grapple, Balance and as many other things as you can.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'll second the suggestion of starting off with one of the list casters, either Dread Necromancer or Beguiler (but not warmage) until you get a better feel for how to play a caster more effectively. It's important to have a strong grasp for tactics before worrying about strategy.

If neither of those are available, or just don't appeal to you, then a buffer sorcerer is difficult to mess up. Either you become the fighter's buddy, or you gish if there is no fighter. Either way you rely pretty heavily on the same handful of spells for the most part. You then apply BFC and/or debuffing as secondary concerns until you get a good feel for how to use them effectively.

The trick with learning to be a strong caster is the same as learning anything else, you take it one step at a time learning progressively more difficult techniques. For casters that'd be buffing then debuffing then battelfield control. Minionmancy is a whole different discussion, leave it alone until you've got the basics down.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well the way I do a Wizard's prepared spells is to have a few different lists that each serve a different purpose. So far I have a list for general adventuring, heavy combat/dungeon crawling, and stealth/infiltration. Each list has a decent variety of spells that go towards the intended purpose, the idea being that I have something useful to do in most cases. I choose one of those lists of spells to prepare based on what I expect to face during the upcoming day. Sometimes it doesn't go as planned, but I try to adjust so I can improve the next time.

One of the most important things I've learned playing a low-level spellcaster is knowing when to cast and, more importantly, when NOT to cast. Sometimes it is better to save your spell for a more opportune moment. Sometimes taking cover and holding your action is the smartest thing to do. When your resources are limited, it's your responsibility to use them in the most effective manner possible. Your party members are counting on you to turn the tide when it matters most, and in return you have to trust them to handle their end of things.

You may have the powers of Batman, but you must endeavor to be Spider-Man. "With great power comes great responsibility."

[Axier]

why is this so good, what am I missing? (Not to steal your post!)
Im also playing my druid suppar so im taking a huge intrest in this op

Detect magic will:

Find magical items in piles of things you would rather not carry.
Find magical traps within an area.
Track someone who has a magical item with an aura you are aware of (or atleast it makes it easier.)
Find out if an item normally worthless in appearance is actually magical, and worth you time.

Actually really useful. Of course, this is why I like DFA, because I can do this at will, all the time, and then identify for free.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Detect magic will:

Find magical items in piles of things you would rather not carry.
Find magical traps within an area.
Track someone who has a magical item with an aura you are aware of (or atleast it makes it easier.)
Find out if an item normally worthless in appearance is actually magical, and worth you time.

Actually really useful. Of course, this is why I like DFA, because I can do this at will, all the time, and then identify for free.

You forgot scanning for invisible foes, though arcane sight is better all around and also possible to permanence.

[Krazzman]

Wow, that were some fast replies.

@System:
We play DnD 3.5 with Core+PHB2+Completes+ToB+Stormwrack+Frostburn+Faeru n+Races of Destiny (as seen in my Signature).
I DM a Faerun-PF game (4 players each level 5) with the whole d20pfsrd available. For Books I have: CRB, APG, UM, UC, B1, Gods and Magic and the Campaign Setting although I don't see myself using the last one anytime soon.
We play wednesdays atm in a weekly change of who DM's and my GF and I try to get into a Group that plays on Weekends (one or two times a month or such). Not so sure but I believe they already have a Wizard and Cleric.

@Spells:
I knew spells would be a big topic in this. Thanks to Treantmonk and other writers of guides I knew that there are at least a few "bread'n'Butter" spells and some to avoid at all cost because they treat the universe neck like a twig.
Haste, Fly and Invisibility are since my first try at casters my most loved spells. My problem lies in the selection. How can I as a Sorcerer for example tell if I would be spamming Invisibility? And should I take haste or Fly first? Do I even will be casting fly that often? Should I maybe buy a wand of this? These are the thoughts I have what make this stuff clunky for me...

@Shneekey:
Actually at the moment this is in a I don't care which system state. Maybe my Warblade dies next fight and I end up rolling into a Mage? Or we actually get into the group and I try a sorcerer...

I played many different characters and personalities but they most of the time didn't work out. Either because I botched my "being IC" or mechanically the character was not so good. I mostly try new stuff every now and then.
I started with a rogue that was suboptimal. In many One-Shots I played rogues/Fighters, Fighters, Rogues, Clerics, Barbarians and such. Mostly being either Melee Brute or Sneaky combatant. A few Archers (Ranger or Warlock) as well. The times I played Sorcerer or Wizard (Evoker and Fire Domain Wizard) I choose blasting and was... bored. My GF started to hate Sorcerers because she likes to move into action, roll many dice while obliberating enemies and when she's bored starting a Barroombrawl. I on my hand like to plan things out. Planning what to buy next getting new ideas of tricks to pull and such. I would describe myself as a Trickster player. I like my characters being skilled and able to pull funny stuff so I could post it in the Funny Stories thread.
Actually I want to have some tricks up my sleeves beside casting. I think about gish builds or such. Inspired by SubZero for example I asked how to build it and I got another response than what I had envisioned after searching for it.

EDIT:
@Kelb:
Thanks but PF doesn't have that many of those "list-casters" and I somehow dislike Dread Necros. Saw them in play next to my Duskblade. When I want to play Minionarmy I usually just go for Druid with Augment Summoning and Natural Spell and call it a day. Druid is somehow the only class where I don't have this what should I take to be effective line... since he can trade every crappy spell for SNA on a whim.
Also the Dread Necro I played with was actually cheesy already but somehow no one I know can play a necromancer without going against the party... even when they are all ruthless murderhobos (yes we tended to do such things too).

[Yora]

I build spellcasters like superheroes. Not trying to be a universal sage of spells, but pick one thing the character is good at and then select spells that work for that.
If I would want to play a pyromancer, I wouldn't bother with summon monster spells, teleportation, divination and such. They are good, but not relevant to what the character is about.

[Krazzman]

After rereading my post earlier... I messed up with describing my "playstyle".

I want to get to the trickster part because I like it. At the moment I'm still stuck with the BSF part. I like to be a Damage Dealer and Supporter. In WoW I play a Shadowpriest and said I would be able to Heal if need be there. I like to support people and to do something every round of combat and out of combat (not socializing). I don't like the "Face" role or the "Healer" or such archetypical things.

Thanks so far, for feats... well except the usual useful stuff I don't know what else is good in terms of metamagic or well other feats. I know Improved Initiative is practically always a solid choice. Some others depend on style (like Augment Summoning) or Class (Divine Metamagic).

I think the wizards/sorcs I played so far all had: Spellcasting Prodigy (the +2 Casting stat one from fearun [for saves and bonus spells only]) Spell Focus (Evoc/Fire) and eshew materials as feats (they never got that high).

[Kelb_Panthera]

After rereading my post earlier... I messed up with describing my "playstyle".

I want to get to the trickster part because I like it. At the moment I'm still stuck with the BSF part. I like to be a Damage Dealer and Supporter. In WoW I play a Shadowpriest and said I would be able to Heal if need be there. I like to support people and to do something every round of combat and out of combat (not socializing). I don't like the "Face" role or the "Healer" or such archetypical things.

Rogue/sorcerer into arcane trickster. Focus on buffing, follow up with illusion for BFC and social interaction and enchantment for debuffing and other social interaction.

Disclaimer: the above is not a high-op suggestion, but rather a thematic suggestion. Wizard can ultimately do it better, but the book-keeping can be rough.

[Krazzman]

Rogue/sorcerer into arcane trickster. Focus on buffing, follow up with illusion for BFC and social interaction and enchantment for debuffing and other social interaction.

Disclaimer: the above is not a high-op suggestion, but rather a thematic suggestion. Wizard can ultimately do it better, but the book-keeping can be rough.

In PF this could be less Mad than in 3.5 but the weighting of stats would be quite off i think. And I'm unsure about the Arcane Trickster... he isn't available in PF anymore... or is he?

Cha>Dex>Int=con would be the weighting for that one right?

[Kelb_Panthera]

In PF this could be less Mad than in 3.5 but the weighting of stats would be quite off i think. And I'm unsure about the Arcane Trickster... he isn't available in PF anymore... or is he?

Cha>Dex>Int=con would be the weighting for that one right?

Sorry, I'm not overmuch familiar with PF. I think they still have an arcane trickster though.

The ability layout on that suggestion would be either Cha>Con>Int=Dex or as you've described, depending on which skill-set you focus on. I'd suggest the one I described since illusions have you pretty much set for stealth, and dex can be boosted by cat's grace to relevant levels.

[jaybird]

In PF this could be less Mad than in 3.5 but the weighting of stats would be quite off i think. And I'm unsure about the Arcane Trickster... he isn't available in PF anymore... or is he?

Cha>Dex>Int=con would be the weighting for that one right?

Arcane Trickster is PF available.

[danzibr]

The main problem I have is prepared casting and Metamagic.
Oh man, I am exactly the same way. My solution to this... procrastinate! I mean, it sounds like you're past that point, but that's where I am.

I play in low OP games (like, really low). I played a Bard/Sublime Chord and Psion recently. No prepared casting, no problem.

Also I'm in the process of building a DMM Persist Clericzilla. I'm sure I won't play him anywhere near T1 or T2, but with a specific goal in mind I think it becomes less... daunting. Like, approaching playing a Wizard with the mindset of being able to handle every situation is indeed daunting. Too many options. Not only can you prepare so many spells, but you can Metamagic them however you wish (so to speak). If you instead want to be lay some smack down on some baddies it becomes much more mentally manageable.

[killem2]

The role and versatility of spell caster is going to depend on what your DM is like. A blaster wizard would work fine in some of the things I run, but I also mold pre made modules in as well so it doesn't hurt to be utility either.

If your DM is strictly hack and slash favoring melee, go damage damage damage and call it a day. Buff away, or summon your own flurry of clawing monsters to fight.

I think sometimes the versatility of a wizard is highly overrated, in terms of when you can actually use all those tools, because it is very dependent on the game at hand.

I would never build a character around what I think will be needed, I build a character the way I want it built, and honestly it is the dungeon master's job to build encounters that accent all those characters, not the players. :smallsmile:

[Krazzman]

The one that DM's 3.5 is pretty good in terms of "leewaying" unless it get's too overpowered. He for example cut the Knockdown feat out of my options because... well I now hardly make something less than 20 dmg and would then outperform the others atm. Dunno what he would say to an optimized Sorcerer but well...

The one for PF? I don't have a clue. Not a single one because we just "signed" in for it but haven't got any reply so far.

@Procastrinate... well I do this for 4 years now. 2 years ago I began reading here so... It's not that it is due but more in the means of... should try a caster for real next time...

Still... I'm off about feats. What should I take on level 3? Where Metamagic isn't worth it/where other spells are more useful at the moment.

My main problem lies in two things. I only have experience with lowlevels. Meaning my Wizard reached 5. My sorcerers never saw their second level spells. The Duskblade got to level 5 also as well as the PF Magus I tried who got to level 3.

[AdamT]

If you are having a hard time figuring out what to do, it means you have too many options you are trying to weigh. Limit them. In this case, that means play a sorc instead of a wizard. My suggestion would be as follows (since you said pf + 3.5).

Pathfinder sorcerer. Any bloodline, pick something that sounds fun. For your two traits, pick magical lineage and Wayang spellhunter. Make both of those lower the level of metamagic applied to a ray of frost. Then for your feats chose split ray and fell drain. Your ray of frost would have two rays, each of which would drain a level. Both rays could be targeted at the same target. You would be able to cast that unlimited times a day. From level one on you have a decent weapon. Now forget about weapons and focus all your remaining spells on buffs. The whole party will love you for the huge number of buffs, and you'll contribute to every fight with your split fell ray of frost.

[Krazzman]

I've got some real awesomely helpful advice so far but I think a few examples would be good.

I don't know where most of your campaigns start. But how do you do your spell preparing? Directly after a night of sleep or in the evening before sleeping? As a Wizard do you let slots open? If yes... how many? How did you choose what "tricks" you want to pull? (The Splitted Fell Drain Ray of Frost for example)
How do you play at low levels? Do you spend all your spells... or how can you be sure that your spell is not wasted/needed another time that day? How changes this in the midlevels?

[Malroth]

Low levels as a caster is just waiting for the right moment to cast while contributing as much as you can without casting. Before lv 5-6 ask yourself, will my party die if i don't cast this spell, and if he answer is no don't bother casting and just shoot your crossbow or stab something with a longspear. Wear Padded armour at lv 1 and upgrade to a masterwork Mirthril chain shirt when you can afford it, and give it the Twilight enchantment when you can afford that. 5% arcane spell failure is the equivilent of missing on a natural 1 that melee gets and isn't too crippling most of the time and you'll eventually get rid of it by improving your gear.

That being said make sure to take spells that can turn around what otherwise would be a loosing situation. Silent Image, Grease, Benign transportation, Color spray, Sleep, Charm Person, Ray of enfeeblement (if using 3.5 ver) all can turn what would have been a near impossible encounter into a cakewalk and can be useful in most battles.

With 2nd lv spells (lv 3 wizard lv 4 sorc) you get Invisibility,baleful transportation, Ray of Stupidity, Command Undead (take this ASAP if you're using the split ray fell drain ray of frost combo) Web, Levitate,shatter, scorching ray and Rope trick. Usually by this level you can probably get away with casting at least 1 spell in every battle so try to immobilize more than 1 enemy at a time at the start of battle or cripple the most dangerous one. Note Alter self is avalible for those intrested in vastly overpowering their game.

3rd (lv 5 wiz, lv 6 sorc) Lv spells give you Stinking Cloud, Phantom Steed, Suggestion, Haste, Fly, Dispel Magic, Explosive Runes, Illusionary Script, Displacement, Bands of steel, and Major Image really shine as options but most of the PHB spells aren't too bad options either. Fireball is Iconic but does less damage than your rogues sneak attack routine even if they fail their save and has a tendency to make your melee guys angry. I would not Recommend Illusionary Script as the 1st 3rd level spell sorcerer takes due to its long casting time but its versatility is incredible.

Recommended metamagic.

Extend spell: Great for buffs, debuffs, and summons, possibly for battlefield control spells if you believe you're in a boss battle. Early level is wonderful for your 1hr/lv buffs or rope trick although you may be better off buying a lesser metamagic rod for 3x free uses of extend/day

Empower Spell: Poor choice for straight blasters without metamagic reduction of some type, but really shines on some necromancy spells like Ray of enfeeblement, Touch of Shivering Frost or Enervation, WITH metamagic reduction it makes those spells some of the best in the game.

Fell Drain: Attached to a damaging spell it causes them to loose a level. Wonderful Early game offense and remains useful for lowering saves even late game. Needs metamagic reduction to truly shine but gives a caster a lot of punch they otherwise wouldnt' have till 4th lv spells came up. Note this ability Can cause fallen foes to rise as an uncontroled CR4 undead so try not to use it on 1HD creatures too carelessly before you can handle that.

Heighten Spell: Probably the most complicated Metamagic feat, It can be used to up the save DC of lower lv spells and it is used in a lot of early entry tricks to various prestige classes. Good for Sorcerers as it gives them more options for their higher lv slots.

Split Ray: 1 spell, 2 targets lots of fun, Use on Ray of frost, Ray of enfeeblement, Ray of exhaustion etc. Stacks with Twin spell and Empower spell. Spells get REALLY nice when multiple of these effects are stacked along with metamagic reduction.

Energy substutition (cold, fire, electric, acid) allows you to swap the elemental type of a spell around to the type chosen for the feat, +0 spell level so its pretty handy for blasters.

Persistant spell: Great for bards and clerics who can get around the annoying +6 Spell level adjustment,but its really hard for Sorc/wizards/druids to do so without making it the focus of your build, i'd pass on this one.

Searing Spell: Ever wanted to burn a fire elemental to death? This metamagic feat lets you do it.



Wands:
Traits you look for in a wand.
1) i'd like to use this spell multiple times per day
2) Its lv 1 or 2, lv 3 is possible if its a VERY good spell
3) I don't care about its save DC and it must be useful at even its lowest possible caster level.

Spells that fit this criteria.
Neverskitter,
Benign Transportation (great for your familliar)
Unseen Servant
True Strike
Enlarge Person
Obscuring Mist
Mirror Image
Scorching Ray (great for familliars too)

[ahenobarbi]

Krazzman. I'd focus on buffing because it's easiest and works (almost) always. Later I'd prepare a few battle field control spells every day to learn how to use them. Maybe a damaging spell or two (but no more). Personally I don't like debuffing.

Malroth I think your post included a lot of great advice but there are some points I disagree with.


Wear Padded armour at lv 1 and upgrade to a masterwork Mirthril chain shirt when you can afford it, and give it the Twilight enchantment when you can afford that. 5% arcane spell failure is the equivilent of missing on a natural 1 that melee gets and isn't too crippling most of the time and you'll eventually get rid of it by improving your gear.

Actually I believe it's a waste of money for wizards (early in the game) and every spell caster wear an armor.

Early in the game you suggest little (5%) decrease in probability of being hit for little (5%) increase of failure of your spells. IMHO it's not worth it. Because as you said you want to cast only when it really matters. And then you don't want to fail.

If you need protection you're better of carrying around tower shield and hiding behind it when you need to.

Later when you could afford masterwork mithral chain shirt (it costs 1350 so level 4 I guess) you're better of getting a pearl of power(1) for cheaper and casting Mage Armor twice a day.

Later casting Mage Armor becomes even more advantageous (longer duration for the same cost).


Extend spell: Great for buffs, debuffs, and summons, possibly for battlefield control spells if you believe you're in a boss battle. Early level is wonderful for your 1hr/lv buffs or rope trick although you may be better off buying a lesser metamagic rod for 3x free uses of extend/day

The feat is nice. But I never really have it. Because early I don't have spell slots to use it and later I can afford meta magic rods of extend (they're cheap! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicExtend)).

Also I don't use the wands on 1st level spells, I use pearls of power for them (the same cost but a bit more flexibility).


Split Ray: 1 spell, 2 targets lots of fun, Use on Ray of frost, Ray of enfeeblement, Ray of exhaustion etc. Stacks with Twin spell and Empower spell. Spells get REALLY nice when multiple of these effects are stacked along with metamagic reduction.

Great on enervation :smallbiggrin:

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't know where most of your campaigns start. But how do you do your spell preparing? Directly after a night of sleep or in the evening before sleeping? You can't prep spells before you rest. So that one answers itself.
As a Wizard do you let slots open? If yes... how many?Depends on level. Before level 5 or so, no. As you get into mid and high level play it pay to leave some open to do mid-day prep, but how many depends on how the DM runs things. If you're likely to run into more problems that you can take your time with, you leave more slots open to prep just the right spell for the job. If you run into more, answer it now or you're screwed type problems, leaving too many slots open might get you killed. Only experience can teach you exactly where the line is for your DM.
How did you choose what "tricks" you want to pull? (The Splitted Fell Drain Ray of Frost for example) Generally you choose your "tricks" at character creation since most of the good ones require you to build for them. Which trick you choose is just a matter of personal preference.

How do you play at low levels? Do you spend all your spells... or how can you be sure that your spell is not wasted/needed another time that day? Carefully. Before level 5 or so, you most assuredly don't want to blow your whole load in one fight. Carry a crossbow for plinking enemies at range and a quarterstaff in case they get close. If they do get close though, using the withdraw action to get close to another, more melee oriented ally is probably a good idea.
How changes this in the midlevels?

Your increased number of spells will make it less and less likely that you'll need to depend on mundane methods of attack, and the ever increasing versatility and power of those spells can make keeping enemies at bay or ruining their attacks much easier.

[TuggyNE]

If you need protection you're better of carrying around tower shield and hiding behind it when you need to.

Bwaa? 50% ASF for +4 is better than 5% for +1? If you don't mind, run that by me one more time, because that doesn't quite seem logical.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Bwaa? 50% ASF for +4 is better than 5% for +1? If you don't mind, run that by me one more time, because that doesn't quite seem logical.

I suspect the idea is to squat behind the shield taking cover until you're needed, then drop the shield and cast. It's not being used for the +4 shield bonus at all. Kinda eats into your action economy though.

[TuggyNE]

I suspect the idea is to squat behind the shield taking cover until you're needed, then drop the shield and cast. It's not being used for the +4 shield bonus at all. Kinda eats into your action economy though.

Hmm, fair enough I suppose. But yeah, you're going to be limited to 5' steps mostly, and it does nothing to protect you from AoOs or readied actions when you do cast. Worse, it costs a move action to drop the shield (doesn't provoke) and another move action to pick it up (provokes), and another move action to use it again (doesn't provoke). So your turns look like this:

I need to cast a spell! (Possible 5' step) move action to drop, standard action to cast/start casting, swift action free
I don't need to cast anything, but I do need to pick up my shield: move action to pick up shield (possible 5' step), standard (move) action to use shield (possible 5' step), swift action free
I am in full turtle mode and don't need to do anything: up to a double move or 5' step, swift action free

Note that there's a full round in which you're unprotected every time you cast.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hmm, fair enough I suppose. But yeah, you're going to be limited to 5' steps mostly, and it does nothing to protect you from AoOs or readied actions when you do cast. Worse, it costs a move action to drop the shield (doesn't provoke) and another move action to pick it up (provokes), and another move action to use it again (doesn't provoke). So your turns look like this:

I need to cast a spell! (Possible 5' step) move action to drop, standard action to cast/start casting, swift action free
I don't need to cast anything, but I do need to pick up my shield: move action to pick up shield (possible 5' step), standard (move) action to use shield (possible 5' step), swift action free
I am in full turtle mode and don't need to do anything: up to a double move or 5' step, swift action free

Note that there's a full round in which you're unprotected every time you cast.

I never said it was a good idea.

I always get a mage armor tattooed onto my wizards (providing the DM is willing to allow it. It's definitely RAW legal though.) amongst the other geometric tattoo spell-book spells that are my staples.


Too elaborate, for those so interested;

Complete Arcane introduces two things that can make damn sure a wizard always has at least a handful of staples. The geometer PrC and the tattoo variant spell-book. Find a geometer, get him to draw you a geometric version of the staple spell you never want to be without, take that to a tattooist and have him print it on your body using the rare-expensive inks that make it a spell-book tattoo. You now have a staple spell printed right on your body, so you always have access, in a geometric design that's not easily recognizable as a spell. It costs 200gp, regardless of spell level, plus whatever you worked out with the geometer to get a print.

[ahenobarbi]

No I don't suggest using shield like that. More like:

When your round starts think for a moment:
- If you find your self in grave danger (generally in range of somewhat competent enemy meele) put on the shield (get 90% miss chance) and retreat.
- If you are ok, but may be in trouble before your next round (1 HP and in enemy archer range) do your standard action and put the shield as your move action. Make a 5ft step if you like.
- If you are relatively safe use your standard and move actions as effectively as you can.

This doesn't help you when you are relatively safe (and on surprise rounds). But I prioritize effectiveness over a little defensive boost when I'm safe anyways (and you can wear a shield between fights, then drop it for AC bonus in surprise round).

There are some problems with that though:
- It's more expansive (could be a problem at the very start).
- It's heavier (could be a problem if you want to dump strength).

[Endarire]

Snuggle up with Treantmonk (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0). And AfterCrescent (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1238). And Blade2718 (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940.0).

For Pathfinder-specific stuff, snuggle up with Treantmonk (https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1xjPIOH8F8a0l74BdDF7Q23nCfZ-YX68Xr6JmmtznMw4), and once more for Druids (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab).

[TuggyNE]

No I don't suggest using shield like that. More like:

When your round starts think for a moment:
- If you find your self in grave danger (generally in range of somewhat competent enemy meele) put on the shield (get 90% miss chance) and retreat.
- If you are ok, but may be in trouble before your next round (1 HP and in enemy archer range) do your standard action and put the shield as your move action. Make a 5ft step if you like.
- If you are relatively safe use your standard and move actions as effectively as you can.

Well, either you use it for total cover (with roughly the routine I sketched out, and the same basic action economy problems) or you use it for a shield bonus (and eat 50% ASF). Which one are you suggesting?

Also, I'm a little unclear on how you're putting on the shield (in either mode) with just a single move action. Are you stowing it in some way between times?

Technically tower shields don't grant a miss chance at all; they either give total cover (can't be attacked or affected by area spells, can be spell-targeted) or +4 AC; were you thinking of 3.0 cover rules?

[ahenobarbi]

Well, either you use it for total cover (with roughly the routine I sketched out, and the same basic action economy problems) or you use it for a shield bonus (and eat 50% ASF). Which one are you suggesting?

Use total cover when I really need to be safe. I think +1AC doesn't do much good in those situations. And 5% ASF is a problem in every other situation.

As I see it. You loose your actions when you couldn't really use them. You keep full effectiveness when you act.


Also, I'm a little unclear on how you're putting on the shield (in either mode) with just a single move action. Are you stowing it in some way between times?


Don shield (any) is a move action in my PhB v3.5.

Technically tower shields don't grant a miss chance at all; they either give total cover (can't be attacked or affected by area spells, can be spell-targeted) or +4 AC; were you thinking of 3.0 cover rules?[/QUOTE]

Yes I meant to gain total cover and apparently messed something (possibly 3.0 cover rules).

[TuggyNE]

Don shield (any) is a move action in my PhB v3.5.

Right, I was wondering what you were doing to avoid the additional move action to pick it up after dropping it.

[ahenobarbi]

Right, I was wondering what you were doing to avoid the additional move action to pick it up after dropping it.

I didn't really run in to the issue. I never had to go into full-defensive mode more than once per encounter.

[Krazzman]

Finally some time to reply...

Endarire... the problem with those guides (in general) is... well I looked into the Druid Handbook from Treantmonk... and couldn't really get something useful out of it for the one time I tried to play one.

His guide to being a god was a bit of help in terms of getting why those school/spells are effective.
The other two... weren't known to me, I'll try to find some spare time to look through them.

[Kazyan]

The only serious spellcaster I've been able to play was a Cleric. I didn't want to CoDzilla for fear of outshinig our meatshield Half-Dragon Rogue, and the problem with buffing was that everyone forgets their buffs at my table. So I just hit enemies with Boreal Wind and allies with healz. Definitely not optimal, but I didn't know what else to do.

[eggs]

Endarire... the problem with those guides (in general) is... well I looked into the Druid Handbook from Treantmonk... and couldn't really get something useful out of it for the one time I tried to play one.
This is getting a bit into a tangent, but I've seen this complaint before. Could you elaborate on which guides you do find useful, and what would make the others more helpful?

Could you post your thoughts on the different approaches taken in Dictum Mortuum (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869222/The_Wizards_Handbook) and LogicNinja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002)'s Wizard guides?
(The prior is primarily an index of relevant build options from a wide assortment of sources, with a bit of commentary on each, which also presents the data for readers to base their own decisions of spell tactics on; the latter focuses more heavily on how to play the class with a handful of outside sources, addressing theory and basic tactics with the selected sources).

[Krazzman]

This is getting a bit into a tangent, but I've seen this complaint before. Could you elaborate on which guides you do find useful, and what would make the others more helpful?

Could you post your thoughts on the different approaches taken in Dictum Mortuum (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869222/The_Wizards_Handbook) and LogicNinja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002)'s Wizard guides?
(The prior is primarily an index of relevant build options from a wide assortment of sources, with a bit of commentary on each, which also presents the data for readers to base their own decisions of spell tactics on; the latter focuses more heavily on how to play the class with a handful of outside sources, addressing theory and basic tactics with the selected sources).

My main problem with those guides is... well how they explain the stuff.

For example the Warlock Thread from LT and Thiago is good because they explain the Invocations a bit lenghty. While at least I felt like this on treantmonks or such guides they toss you too far in. I Imagine the guides to have two targetgroups. Newbies who want to understand more of the game and "veterans" that want to try something new out.

I'm missing the basics and ins ome cases the explanations of why it isn't that good. LogicNinja's Guide might be good but lacks this on a few things but he has the bonus of: Saying where he found the stuff. I have seen guides to Classes and such where Feats were categorized in Core, other and the rest.

I would like them to be a bit more like the guides for Shadowpriests (WoW). There you might don't have a real choice but they explain how the basic mechanic works and what talents are a good choice and on what to focus.

LogicNinja actually does this pretty good. While Treantmonk explained why Blasting is "bad". For me the problem is quite easy... I feel quite lost when thinking about what should I take, second I imagine using that trick in our old group and directly see the character either veto'ed or dying by "sudden" Deus ex Machina due to being "OP" (actually I build a Monk once with Martial Sprit and Stance who was labeled: OP while the Ubercharger Paladin was considered ok). In our current Group a Buffer would probably be ok but... I think I can't reroll now. Being the one with a) Most HP (38+1d10+2), b) best damage output and c) generally being the one turning the tides... I fear the party would die without him...

To explain the one time I played a Druid some more...
We started a campaign with 4 Players in an ALL Dwarven campaign. With rolled stats. I got really awesome stats. 18 Str, 17 Dex, 20 Wis, 19 Con. Or similar. I looked into the Treantmonks guide (after generation) and found only one thing useful. His mention of Armor Profecy: Heavy to later get a Stone-Plate. Due to his selection of "good animals to Wildshape into" I... couldn't figure it out and even asked in a thread here for an animal to turn into that made sense as we were all living in that mountain for our live time. And I got responses like the guide: Turn into a Dinosaur!
There were a few ones that gave me hints about how I would get enough knowledge to get other animals to be able to turn into also but... well the point was we managed to get to level 3 and I only cast: SNA and Magic Stones.

Well the Wizard/Sorcerer guides I have seen mostly focused on the fact: Don't loose caster levels, definitly prestige out asap. Or for pathfinder: a "bloodline" guide.

[macdaddy]

Malroth said it best I think.

in 3.5 a focused specialist conjurer is pretty good. Large # of spells, so you have some flexibility.

1st level spells: Silent Image, Grease, Benign transportation, Enlarge
2nd level spells: Web, Glitterdust, Alter Self, Rope Trick, Invis

basically, have some combat BC spells(grease/glitterdust/fog, benign transposition), a few bufs(haste/enlarge), a few utility spells (silent image, alter self) and you are pretty much ready to go.

Then in your back pocket, you keep a scroll or two of something life saving that you don't want to memorize, but when you need it, you NEED it (like corpse candle, see invis, etc).

I hang back, drop the spells down to make the combats easy for everyone and save their buts, and they all think they did it on their own :). We vote for MVP every session, winner gets a bonus action point, and it almost always goes to a fighter for whacking something that was blind or prone...