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View Full Version : Rework of level/HD, including Wound and Vigor points



Absol197
2012-10-25, 10:24 AM
Hey there, Playground! Something that had always irked me a little bit is how Hit Dice work. For smaller creatures and smarter creatures, Hit Dice are a measure of learning and experience, which grow into power. Essentially, the level of the creature. As you gain experiences, you get higher in level, and you get better at stuff. Makes sense.

For larger or innately tougher creatures, though, they represent that creature's innate ability to resist damage. However, all the same attributes that increase when a character gains more skill and experience go up with tougher creatures. But they're not gaining more experience or learning, they're just innately tougher. Why are they also more innately skilled?

I really like the wound point/vigor point system from Pathfinder's Ultimate Combat (originally the wound point/vitality point system from - I think - the original Star Wars d20?), and I thought I could use it as a base to finally separate innate toughness with level and experience. Here's what I came up with:

Wound and Vigor Points by Type and Size
Aberrations, animals, dragons, humanoids, magical beasts, plants, and vermin are considered living creatures. They gain a number of wound points equal to their Constitution score, times a multiplier based on their size. They die when they reach a number of negative wound points equal to their Constitution score or their normal wound point total, whichever is less. They add their Constitution modifier to their vigor points for every level they possess.

Healing: Living creatures heal a number of vigor points each hour equal to their level + their Constitution modifier. By resting, they heal all of their vigor points. Living creatures heal 1 wound point for resting for 8 hours, or a number equal to their Constitution modifier (minimum 2) for getting complete bed rest.

Undead and constructs are considered nonliving creatures. They gain a base number of wound points, depending on their size, and add their Charisma score (for undead) or their creator’s Intelligence score (for constructs) to their wound points. Constructs also gain a number of bonus wound points depending on the material that they are made out of. Nonliving creatures do not go to negative wound points; they are destroyed when they reach 0. They add their Charisma modifier to their vigor points for every level they possess.

Healing: Nonliving creatures without an intelligence score do not heal either vigor or wound points naturally, unless they have a special ability that does so (such as vitality or fast healing). Intelligent nonliving creatures heal a number of vigor points each hour equal to their level + their Charisma modifier. They do not naturally heal wound points.

Outsiders are considered spiritual creatures. Outsiders have traits similar to both living and nonliving creatures. Outsiders have a number of wound points equal to their Constitution score, times the normal size modifier, plus their Charisma score. Outsiders not go to negative wound points; they discorporate when they reach 0. They add their Charisma modifier to their vigor points for every level they possess.

Healing: Outsiders heal a number of vigor points each hour equal to their level + their Charisma modifier. By resting, they heal all their vigor points. Outsiders heal a number of wound points equal to their Charisma modifier for resting 8 hours (minimum 1), or a number equal to 1/2 their level + their Charisma modifier for getting complete bed rest (including from being discorporated).

Discorporation: An outsider that has been discorporated returns to their home plane and slowly begins to reform. They heal at the normal rate, and once their wound points are equal to or greater than their Charisma score, their form has regenerated and they can act normally. However, they gain a permanent negative level after regenerating, which cannot be healed by any means. This negative level fades after 1 year, however. Like any creature, and outsider that has as many negative levels as it does actual levels dies, and can no longer reform.


Incorporeal creatures are a special case. Whether they are undead, outsiders, or other types that somehow became incorporeal, they all function the same. Incorporeal creatures do not possess wound points. Instead, they gain an additional number of vigor points based on their Charisma score and level, and they use Charisma to determine their bonus vigor points from level. When they reach 0 vigor points, they are destroyed, in whatever manner is appropriate for their type.

{table=head]Size|Wound Point Multiplier|Nonliving Base Wound Points|Incorporeal Creature Level|Bonus Vigor Points
Fine|x0|1|1-2|—
Diminutive|x1/4|4|3-4|Cha score x1/2
Tiny|x1/2|8|5-6|Cha score x1
Small|x3/4|12|7-8|Cha score x1-1/2
Medium|x1|20|9-10|Cha score x2
Large|x2|42|11-13|Cha score x3
Huge|x3|72|14-16|Cha score x4
Gargantuan|x4|110|17-19|Cha score x5
Colossal|x6|182|20+|Cha score x7[/table]

Levels
Like characters, all creatures have levels. A creature’s level determines the amount of training, experience, and skill it has developed over the course of its life. Each time a creature gains a level, it must choose a class to increase. There are two general categories of classes: NPC classes, and PC classes. Most creatures gain levels in NPC classes. Some exceptional creatures, especially very intelligent ones, gain levels in PC classes instead.

Living Creatures: The number and type of levels that living creatures have typically depends on their Intelligence rating.

Mindless: Mindless living creatures, typically vermin and plants, but including some aberrations, typically have a set number of levels. They cannot learn from experience, but their instincts do grant them a measure of skill. Mindless living creatures usually do not have more than 5 levels, and typically have around 3 by the time they are fully grown. They only have levels in NPC classes. Commoner and expert are the most common, but predators usually take levels in warrior.

Animal Intelligence: Living creatures with an intelligence score of 1 to 2 are of animal intelligence. They have the capacity to learn from experience, but they still function mostly on instinct, and so are limited in how many levels they can gain. They almost never have more than 10 levels, and they are always in NPC classes. Their place in the food chain, as well as their environment, determine how many and of what classes.

Pets and other domestic animals usually have 1 to 2 levels, typically in commoner. They have little need to learn much in the ways of skills or combat. Work animals are usually higher level, from 2 to 5, and have their class depends on what they are trained to do. Most have levels in expert, but those trained for guarding or fighting have levels in warrior. Wild animals, those that live out in unforgiving nature, are usually the highest in level. Most wild animals have 6 levels by the time they are full grown. Most use the expert class, although predators are often warriors.

Sentient: Sentient living creatures includes most all characters. Creatures with Intelligence scores between 3 and 18 fall into this range. Sentient creatures can take up to the full 20 levels, and may take PC classes. However, the majority rarely reach higher than 5th level in their lifetimes, and PC classes tend to be uncommon. Longer-lived creatures, such as elves and dragons, tend to have higher levels, because they have more time to learn and grow.

Super-Sentient: Living creatures with an average Intelligence score of 20 or higher are capable of learning incredibly quickly, and so often advance to much higher levels than sentient creatures. Super-sentient living creatures can often reach level 10 or higher, and PC classes are very common among them.

Nonliving Creatures: Like living creatures, the number and type of levels that nonliving creatures gain typically depends on their intelligence scores. However, there are several differences.

Mindless: Mindless nonliving creatures are automatons. They have no instincts, and therefore no general level. Their creators determine how many levels they have, and in what class, although they cannot have levels in PC classes. Because their creator programs them with their abilities, they can have as many levels as their creator can imbue them with. If they have no creator, then they have 1 level, usually in the commoner class.

Intelligent: Nonliving creatures with an Intelligence score follow the same trends as living creatures with a similar level of intelligence. However, because nonliving creatures do not die from old age, sentient and super-sentient nonliving creatures typically have more levels than their living counterparts. They usually have at least 50% more levels than a corresponding living being.

Spiritual Creatures: Creatures with the Outsider type are unique, in that they are both alive and not alive at the same time. They live forever, and usually are very intelligent. Their skills and abilities are innate, but they also possess the ability to learn and grow over their long existence.
Spiritual creatures run the gamut of different levels. Most have many levels, usually 8 or more, and the strongest ones go beyond the normal limit of 20. Outsiders with Intelligence scores typically have PC class levels, while the rare mindless ones use NPC classes. However, mindless outsiders are still imbued with purpose and driven by cosmic forces, and have much higher levels than other mindless creatures typically have.

Elementals: Elementals are the exception to the rule that intelligent outsiders have PC classes levels. Most elementals use NPC classes.

So, what do you all think? I realize that implementing this would require a lot of work, but do you think the core idea is any good? Should I continue along this line of thinking? What, in effect, are your thoughts on the matter! :smallsmile:


~Phoenix~

Yitzi
2012-10-25, 11:16 AM
I favor just making HD be a measure of combat capability (maybe even say they're all the same size, and different classes get different HD per level), and then bigger or tougher creatures get a higher CON score and possibly a special size-based hit point multiplier.

As a bonus, it means you can make a Tarrasque that doesn't always hit.

Absol197
2012-10-25, 11:19 AM
I favor just making HD be a measure of combat capability (maybe even say they're all the same size, and different classes get different HD per level), and then bigger or tougher creatures get a higher CON score and possibly a special size-based hit point multiplier.

As a bonus, it means you can make a Tarrasque that doesn't always hit.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Could you maybe elaborate?

~Phoenix~

Vadskye
2012-10-25, 11:42 AM
The problem you note (high HD necessarily grants feats, skill points, other implications of having experience) can be solved much more simply than by creating an entirely new system. Simply divorce the concept of Effective Character Level from HD. For creatures with classes, ECL=HD. However, for creatures whose HD is entirely racial, ECL can be assigned semi-arbitrarily as appropriate for the monster. Everything on the "Experience and Level-Dependent Bonuses" table in the PHB, plus skill points, should be determined by ECL. Everything on the "Base Save and Base Attack Bonuses" chart should be determined by HD. Simple as that.

If you want to move D&D over to an entirely wound/vigor point system, you can still do that - but that's a change that you are making for other reasons. If you specifically want a system like that, go for it! I don't know much how to make that - I like HP just fine, myself - but I wish you the best of luck.

Absol197
2012-10-25, 11:55 AM
The problem you note (high HD necessarily grants feats, skill points, other implications of having experience) can be solved much more simply than by creating an entirely new system. Simply divorce the concept of Effective Character Level from HD. For creatures with classes, ECL=HD. However, for creatures whose HD is entirely racial, ECL can be assigned semi-arbitrarily as appropriate for the monster. Everything on the "Experience and Level-Dependent Bonuses" table in the PHB, plus skill points, should be determined by ECL. Everything on the "Base Save and Base Attack Bonuses" chart should be determined by HD. Simple as that.

If you want to move D&D over to an entirely wound/vigor point system, you can still do that - but that's a change that you are making for other reasons. If you specifically want a system like that, go for it! I don't know much how to make that - I like HP just fine, myself - but I wish you the best of luck.

The bolded part is the problem - I see these traits (BAB especially) as skill-based as well. Basically, the idea is that BAB +20 means that you have learned everything about the basics of combat, and your core skill can't get any better. A roc, for example, has 18 HD, and so a BAB of +13. Except it's just using its instinctual combat ability, not decades of study and training. Yes, those instincts are honed for hunting, but that's not the same as legendary martial training and skill (level 11 and up is considered legendary, and the lowest level you can get BAB +13 at is level 13). The rest of what makes a roc difficult to fight is its sheer size (Gargantuan; +4 to CMB/CMD) and Strength (32; +11 bonus!). Why is something that is innately able to take more (human-level) injury also innately better at fighting?

I still see the two systems (level/HD and wound/vigor points) as linked - big, tough monsters still need to take lots of hits to take down (lots of health points), but shoudn't necessarily get all the benefits that come with having a high level. Difference of opinion, I suppose.


~Phoenix~

Yitzi
2012-10-25, 08:26 PM
I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Could you maybe elaborate?

~Phoenix~

Basically, take those larger or tougher creatures, reduce their hit dice to represent their skill level, and boost their constitution to represent their hardiness. On top of that, you can make rules like "huge creatures get double hit points" (with equivalents for larger creatures) to reduce the amount that you'd have to boost CON for the large creatures.

Vadskye
2012-10-26, 11:59 AM
Why is something that is innately able to take more (human-level) injury also innately better at fighting?

An interesting question - I get where you're coming from now. My first response that, if you totally divorce attack bonus from HD, you're immediately going to risk having monsters with far too low of an attack bonus. Putting aside whether BAB is the best vehicle for accomplishing that goal, the Roc needs a +13 or so miscellaneous bonus to attack from somewhere, or else it won't be a reasonable threat to an adventuring party that fights it. Or, to put it in the context of the game world, it wouldn't be able to compete with its monstrous rivals without the ability to hit them.

You see BAB as being fundamentally a product of training and experience. That makes sense to me - and I think that this is appropriately represented by the way it gives iterative attacks. However, monsters never get iterative attacks, and for me that creates a pretty stark division. If a Roc got iterative attacks with its claws, that would feel more like a "training and experience thing" to me. And it's true that if you gave a Roc a sword, it would be bizarrely good at it; that's a problem, albeit one that generally gets ignored.

I still think this is best solved without completely separating HP/vitality completely from the rest of the system for a couple reasons. First, that requires doing a fair amount of work and adjusting every monster in the system. Monsters with the same size and similar Constitution can vary wildly in the degree of physical toughness that they should have. (Ancient Brass Dragon vs Gelatinous Cube or Elephant, for example). Without using HD as some component of that, the only way you can keep that balanced is to more or less arbitrarily assign HP/vitality, which obviously has its own set of issues.

Instead, what if you took advantage of the "monsters don't get iterative attacks" idea and took that a little farther? With this, BAB only comes from levels in classes, and most monsters have 0 BAB. However, there is a completely different form of inherent attack bonus; for lack of a better name, let's call it "Inherent Attack Bonus", or IAB. Racial HD give IAB. IAB is the same as BAB, except it doesn't represent training and skill, but instead represents a monster's hunter's instinct, natural ability, or what have you. Mechanically, they are equivalent, but IAB does not contribute to your iterative attack progression.

That way, you've got a core divide between "training and skill" and "natural ability", without having to rewrite most of the monsters in the book semi-arbitrarily.

Yitzi
2012-10-26, 02:47 PM
An interesting question - I get where you're coming from now. My first response that, if you totally divorce attack bonus from HD, you're immediately going to risk having monsters with far too low of an attack bonus.

So lower their CR, or boost their key ability. Or both.


Without using HD as some component of that, the only way you can keep that balanced is to more or less arbitrarily assign HP/vitality, which obviously has its own set of issues.

Or to change CON scores, or give a racial bonus to HP.

Your idea is a good approach for less work, so it's really a question of how much of a work-intensive rewrite is desired as opposed to an easier fix.

Vadskye
2012-10-26, 03:20 PM
So lower their CR, or boost their key ability. Or both.

Strength does more than just determine attack bonus, though; it determines damage, and has real-world implications like carrying capacity. If the only way to have high attack bonus was to increase Strength, the world would be very strange indeed. And much more damaging.