Class-associations and spells: traits of spells or traits of a character?

[eggs]

This might belong in Simple Q&A, but I suspect this might get a bit more complicated.

Many spell mechanics reference a spell's association to a particular class - Battle Blessing's "Paladin spells," Arcane Fusion's "4th-level Sorcerer spell," taking the definition to be self-evident, but I'm unclear as to what those mean.

Are these class-associations referencing qualities of the particular spells involved, or are they referencing qualities of the character and class that grants access to the spell?

To give an example that might make the distinction less unclear:
Take a Favored Soul 6/Sorcerer 6/Fiend-Blooded 2
Relevant Spells Known:

Dispel Magic (learned as a Favored Soul, not as a Sorcerer, notable for being on the Sorcerer class list)
Flame Blade (learned as a Sorcerer through Fiend-blooded levels, notable for still not being on the Sorcerer class list)
Arcane Fusion (learned as a Sorcerer)


Can the character use Arcane Fusion to cast Dispel Magic+Magic Missile? What about Flame Blade+Magic Missile?

[Diarmuid]

For the purposes of Arcane Fusion, you would be able to use any spells (of the appropriate levels) that appear on your Sorceror Spells Known list.

You would not be able to use Dispel Magic.

[eggs]

So under that reading, it's the class that can access a spell that determines the spell's class, not the class's spell list.

But just to make sure the implications are addressed:

Would it follow from that reading that the StP Erudite's Unique Powers Per Day-circumvention trick would not work, because the Sorc/Wiz spells the Erudite learns are not accessed through the Sorcerer class as spells known?

Or, on the area where that reading is more generous, does that mean that Cleric 17/Prestige Paladin 3 can Battle Blessing its Miracles?

[Diarmuid]

I didnt mean to imply any generalities and simply looked at the wording of Arcane Fusion and the example you gave. If you've got some other examples I'd be happy to help determine how they should be interpreted.

Looking at the Presitge Paladin example, no he would not as he does not have any actual "Paladin spells" as is referenced by the feat Battle Blessing. Prestige Paladin would be advancing his Cleric casting and offers no casting of its own.

Edit - Based on part of the Prestige Paladin that wasnt listed in the WotC site write up, they would be able to Battle Blessing Paladin spells memorized and cast from the Cleric slots. Miracle still would not be "Battle Blessing"able

[Psyren]

I didnt mean to imply any generalities and simply looked at the wording of Arcane Fusion and the example you gave. If you've got some other examples I'd be happy to help determine how they should be interpreted.

Looking at the Presitge Paladin example, no he would not as he does not have any actual "Paladin spells" as is referenced by the feat Battle Blessing. Prestige Paladin would be advancing his Cleric casting and offers no casting of its own.

I disagree. While you are correct that Prestige Paladin has no casting of its own, it does in fact gain "Paladin spells." The relevant rule:


Unique Spells

The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.

So a Cleric/PrC Paladin who learns the Holy Sword spell (Pal 4) will still learn it as a 4th-level spell; however, it won't become a "cleric spell" because as the paragraph above indicates, it is still unique to the paladin list. You are only gaining access because of PrC Paladin. And therefore, Battle Blessing will function with it just fine.

[Hirax]

This is typically a cleric problem. Domain powers and spells frequently reference cleric level or have a different effect based on whether the cleric turns or rebukes undead. There is no general rule anywhere that answers your question, I believe. So a neutral wizard that took arcane disciple (balance) would need to rely on their DM to figure out what would happen if they cast greater visage of the deity, for instance.

And here's what's tricky with spells such as greater visage of the deity. Let's say you rule that it simply doesn't affect wizards if they cast it. But what if they scribe it on to a scroll, and UMD it, pretending to be a cleric and evil or good? Even better, what if they make two scrolls, and UMD one as evil, and one as good, to simultaneously wield the powers of heaven and hell? :smallbiggrin: This is why I personally think that for the purposes of spells, any instance of the word cleric (and other classes) should simply be replaced by the word caster as a solution when other classes somehow obtain the spell.

[Diarmuid]

Thanks for the clarification Psy, I was referencing the WotC website version of Prestige Palading which doesnt contain that section. Hirax was kind enough to correct me in another thread and I edited above to reflect.

[Psyren]

Indeed, your conclusion is correct - you could not Battle Blessing Miracle as that is not a paladin spell.

[eggs]

So a Cleric/PrC Paladin who learns the Holy Sword spell (Pal 4) will still learn it as a 4th-level spell; however, it won't become a "cleric spell" because as the paragraph above indicates, it is still unique to the paladin list. You are only gaining access because of PrC Paladin. And therefore, Battle Blessing will function with it just fine.
The "unique" phrasing is interesting, and gets tricky with some classes like Pious Templar or Holy Liberator, whose spell access the Paladin's

Would they:
A) Count as distinct lists and override the Prestige Paladin's access?
B) Count as casting Paladin spells, and thus benefit from Battle Blessing?
C) Count as niche enough lists not to override the PrPaladin's list, but still are their own unique lists that benefit from Battle Blessing.

I recently realized that I've typically been using a mix of contradicting rulings, such as the usage of Battle Blessing which seems popular on this board, in which BB applies to spells a Prestige Paladin casts which occur on the the Paladin spell list, and permitting it for Holy Liberator/Pious Templar and barring Sword of the Arcane Order/Battle Blessing interaction (putting the association on the spells themselves), but also ruling that something like an Ultimate Magus's Arcane Fusion only applies to its Sorcerer spells known, or that a Sorcerer/Fiendblooded could use Arcane Fusion with its out-of-class spells (putting the association with the character), when the terminology questions are the same.

[Psyren]

The "unique" phrasing is interesting, and gets tricky with some classes like Pious Templar or Holy Liberator, whose spell access the Paladin's

Would they:
A) Count as distinct lists and override the Prestige Paladin's access?
B) Count as casting Paladin spells, and thus benefit from Battle Blessing?
C) Count as niche enough lists not to override the PrPaladin's list, but still are their own unique lists that benefit from Battle Blessing.

I'm still not sure I see the issue. Both Holy Liberator and Pious Templar (good ones anyway) specify that their spells come from the paladin list, so all of those would be subject to BB. So, option B. The only place you might run into oddities are the special spells HLs get, so the DM would have to decide whether those benefit or not. (RAW no, but doesn't hurt anything.)

I can't speak to Arcane Fusion as I've never used or read it myself.