Gestalt Dagger Chucker

[starship1]

How would you optimise this build:

Fighter 5/Master Thrower 5// warblade 6/ Bloodstorm blade4

You pick: race, stats, feats, skills and equipment.


GO!

[eggs]

Fighter 5? :smallyuk: Even Aristocrat would be a strict improvement over that last level. And I'm assuming multiple PrCs won't make the whole build be redone when the build goes by a DM.

If you're dagger-throwing with Master Thrower, Power Attack and strength are going to be problematic as damage sources. A Sneak Attack Thrower setup with Sneak Attack Thug Fighter [Rogue would be better in every way, but whatever] could be a blender, and Warblade could keep it alive.

I'd start with an unimaginative Human SA thrower feat-breakdown of Point Blank Shot/Rapid Shot/Two Weapon Fighting/Weapon Finesse/Staggering Strike and Gloves of the Balanced Hand with a big sack o' Eggshell grenades.

[BowStreetRunner]

One of the problems with a thrown-weapon build is the fact that throwing weapons provokes attacks of opportunity. Besides going halfing and taking 3 levels of whisperknife, one of the best ways to get around this problem is the Master Thrower thrown weapon trick Defensive Throw. Since you are taking this prestige class I would recommend this trick.

Also, since the trick relies on a Concentration check, this has good synergy with the Diamond Mind maneuvers that a Warblade can access.

[starship1]

Yes I realize these problems.

Why is Aristrocrat better than fighter 5? why should i take multiclass penalties?

If you were locked into these classes, what would you do?

the multiple prestige classes are not a problem

[eggs]

Odd levels of Fighter are worth exactly nothing when paired with Warblade in a gestalt. They don't give any new abilities, no skills, no save boosts, no HP, etc. Aristocrat at least boosts the character's will save and adds some new class skills. There's an obscure web enhancement to a relatively unpopular setting-specific sourcebook that gives Fighters associated with a certain organization a slight ability at level 5, but it's weak enough that you won't notice it.

Also, multiclass penalties sound hilarious in gestalt.

And just like normal Rogue is better than Sneak Attack fighter, Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) is better than normal Fighter in very close to every way, when gestalted with Warblade. Unless you're going Dungeoncrasher on the fighter (with Dagger-throwing, that doesn't sound like the plan), it's a strict gain.

Locked into non-SA fighter, I'd probably do the same thing as outlined above, except trade Staggering Strike and 3d6 sneak attack for Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Ranged Weapon Mastery feats and the Resolute Fighter ACF from Complete Champion. (The Weapon Focus line is unpopular, but the attack and damage bonuses don't hurt and RWM effectively triples a dagger thrower's range.)

[Telonius]

The fifth level of Fighter does absolutely nothing for you. The BAB, HP, and Fort saves are taken care of by the other side of the Gestalt, and fifth fighter level doesn't get a free feat. It's really standard practice to avoid odd fighter levels almost as much as you'd avoid taking a 20th level in Rogue. Even if you're in the minority of games that actually enforce multiclass penalties (personally I've never encountered a group that did), and choose a race that doesn't have Fighter (or whatever else you choose) as favored class, it's usually going to be worth it.

EDIT: I'm guessing Aristocrat was the chosen example, because it's a terrible, terrible NPC class, and still has a decent shot at being better than a Fighter level.

[starship1]

so if you could mess around with just the 5 fighter levels, what would you take in their place?

[Randomguy]

Off the top of my head: Feat Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/

Gets you whirling frenzy, wand access to wizard and cleric spells with the right domain, another good domain that you can trade for a devotion feat like travel domain, a bunch of extra skill points at first level and 3 bonus feats. And no multiclass penalties, even if you use them.

Alternatively:
Rogue 3/Sneak attack fighter 1/Cloistered Cleric 1

Same as above, but swap 3 bonus feats and rage for 3d6 sneak attack, even more skill points and evasion. And now you can take Law Devotion, which you can't in the other build since Barbarian requires chaotic.

Or if you don't want any magic at all, Fighter 2/Feat Rogue 2/Barbarian 1, or just the above option but with barbarian instead of cloistered cleric.

Note that all barbarian levels here would be using the Whirling Frenzy ACF.

[starship1]

um, doesnt that give me a whole heck of a lot of multiclass penalties? warblade 6?

[Boci]

um, doesnt that give me a whole heck of a lot of multiclass penalties? warblade 6?

I think its being expected that multiclassing penalties, if they apply, would only apply to each side of the gestalt and wouldn't bleed through. Do you know for a fact they are being used in that manner?

If they are being used as per RAW, then this build is going to be a lot harder, especially since the rule that PrC do not apply to multiclassing penalties was never reprinted in 3.5, unless I am mistaken.

[Randomguy]

um, doesnt that give me a whole heck of a lot of multiclass penalties? warblade 6?

So play a human or pick a race with Warblade as a favoured class, and that gets rid of all of the multiclass penalties, since all of them (except the one with rogue 3) have all classes within one level of each other.

Although common sense would dictate that you only count one side of the gestalt for multiclass penalties, in which case you could use any build without penalties but you'd need rogue as a favoured class for the second build.

[Boci]

So play a human or pick a race with Warblade as a favoured class, and that gets rid of all of the multiclass penalties, since all of them (except the one with rogue 3) have all classes within one level of each other.

As I said previously, unless I am mistaken PrCs count towards multiclassing penalties.

[eggs]

I think straight Bard would be one of the best complements. Its framework is a good match for the Warblade (round out the saves, adds powerful skills) and Inspire Courage optimization (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards
/index.php?topic=9830) can turn into a lot of damage on characters with a lot of attacks like dagger-throwers. If feats get too tight, consider swapping to Bard 6/BSB 4//Warblade 5/Master Thrower 5 to trade Suggestion for Song of the Heart (per the Music of the Heart Bard alteration in the book SotH is printed in).

Otherwise, Feat Rogue (class tweak from the same book as gestalt) would do everything Fighter does, but also add a bunch of skills and trapmonkey abilites, a good reflex save, and a bunch of miscellaneous other abilities like Trapsense and Uncanny Dodge that can at worst be swapped out for some more useful Alternate Class features (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7908).

[Mishkov]

As I said previously, unless I am mistaken PrCs count towards multiclassing penalties.

I have never seen this in an actual game ever nor heard about it. I don't have a reference for you, but check with the DM, this is basically never the case.

Also, I'd really encourage whisperknife with master thrower--rogue levels with halfling subs for lvl 1 rogue (be small, be dexterous, be venomous). Or taking the brutal throw feat and heading to hulking hurler (be large, be strong).

If you want us to pick race, stats, equip, etc, we need to know what we're working with. What sort of point buy? What books are in for gear? What races are allowed? How are you handling level adjust in the gestalt rules? Edit: for the gestalt rules generally only one side of the progression can be a prestige at the time. Is this the case?

[Randomguy]

As I said previously, unless I am mistaken PrCs count towards multiclassing penalties.

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/prestigeClasses.htm):



Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.

You are indeed mistaken.

[Boci]

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/prestigeClasses.htm):



You are indeed mistaken.

Unfortunatly that is trumpted by the actual DMG 3.5, which neglected to include the last sentance.

Still, its presence in the SRD makes for a strong case that it was infact intended to be a rule.


I have never seen this in an actual game ever nor heard about it. I don't have a reference for you, but check with the DM, this is basically never the case.

Its not used because its a silly idea. But it is still the rules.

[starship1]

If you want us to pick race, stats, equip, etc, we need to know what we're working with. What sort of point buy? What books are in for gear? What races are allowed? How are you handling level adjust in the gestalt rules? Edit: for the gestalt rules generally only one side of the progression can be a prestige at the time. Is this the case?

You have any books you want from 3.0/3.5

32 point buy

no LA please, maybe +1 on one side

both sides can have prestige classes. double progressive classes ARE allowed

other than that, go crazy!

[gorfnab]

Unfortunatly that is trumpted by the actual DMG 3.5, which neglected to include the last sentance.

Still, its presence in the SRD makes for a strong case that it was infact intended to be a rule.

v.3.5 Main D&D FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) - page 30

In the previous version of the D&D game, having levels in a
prestige class never caused you to pay the experience
penalty for being a multiclass character without uneven
class levels. (The prestige class levels didn’t count when
checking to see if you had a penalty.) The section on
prestige classes in the new DMG no longer mentions that
you don’t suffer an experience penalty for having levels in a
prestige class. Is this a change or an error?
It’s an error. Having levels in a prestige class won’t give
you an experience penalty.

[Greyfeld85]

Unfortunatly that is trumpted by the actual DMG 3.5, which neglected to include the last sentance.

Still, its presence in the SRD makes for a strong case that it was infact intended to be a rule.

SRD always trumps the official books.

[Boci]

SRD always trumps the official books.

Now that's something I have never heard before. Where does it say that?

[Greyfeld85]

Now that's something I have never heard before. Where does it say that?

SRD is constantly updated with new errata, while books are not. I don't know if it actually says that it trumps the books, but it's logical to assume so.

Edit: Although I've never been clear about the state of the Rules Compendium, so I couldn't say where that sits in the hierarchy of rulings.

[Boci]

SRD is constantly updated with new errata, while books are not. I don't know if it actually says that it trumps the books, but it's logical to assume so.

I dunno. Errata is specifically called out as trumping core, the SRD isn't. Still, I'm happy to assume that SRD is right if it means no multiuclassing penalties for PrC.


Edit: Although I've never been clear about the state of the Rules Compendium, so I couldn't say where that sits in the hierarchy of rulings.

That says it beats everything else in it. You could argue however that since the book isn't one of the listed as something that trumps core it doesn't have the authority to make such a claim, but thats getting into Lawyers&Legislations.

[avr]

Why daggers? Is it to have concealable weapons, or for the image or something? Almost any other thrown weapon has either a better range or better damage.

[Greyfeld85]

Why daggers? Is it to have concealable weapons, or for the image or something? Almost any other thrown weapon has either a better range or better damage.

I would imagine "for the flavor of it." For any martial character, weapon damage is a drop in the bucket against the damage modifiers going into each swing.

As far as range is concerned, no thrown weapon has an increment of over 20 feet, so you're always going to be sitting close to melee, regardless. And if you're pushing sneak attack damage, you have to stay within 30 feet anyway.

In the end, it really does come down to flavor, because there aren't any significant differences between the weapon choices to really matter.

[tyckspoon]

Edit: Although I've never been clear about the state of the Rules Compendium, so I couldn't say where that sits in the hierarchy of rulings.

Rules Compendium controls.. if it's in use. It occupies a rather bizarre position as paid errata; since it wasn't distributed freely, you can't *assume* it's being used, but if somebody did buy it and is referencing it, then the version of the rule in the Rules Compendium is definitive. (Although we'll see if they decide to edit the upcoming rereleases to match the RC.. it might become wrong again with another edition of the core books. Wouldn't be a problem if the RC was actually just a recompilation and all-in-one reference, but it does alter some rules in pretty significant ways, making it a big errata book as well.)


As far as range is concerned, no thrown weapon has an increment of over 20 feet, so you're always going to be sitting close to melee, regardless. And if you're pushing sneak attack damage, you have to stay within 30 feet anyway.

Javelin disagrees >.>
Daggers are chosen because darts aren't as cool and shuriken require dipping into a lame class or spending a feat, IMO. Although considering you have to burn a feat on Quick Draw to throw daggers anyway it's not that big a deal.

[gorfnab]

Strongheart Halfling
1. Rogue // Warblade - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Swashbuckler // Warblade - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue // Warblade - Craven
4. Rogue // Warblade - Penetrating Strike ACF
5. Swashbuckler // Warblade - B: Combat Reflexes
6. Swashbuckler // Bloodstorm Blade - Two Weapon Fighting
7. Swordsage // Bloodstorm Blade - B: Weapon Focus: Shadowhand Weapons
8. Swordsage // Bloodstorm Blade - B: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9. Master Thrower // Bloodstorm Blade - Shadowblade, B: Quick Draw
10. Master Thrower // Bloodstorm Blade
11. Master Thrower // Whisperknife - B: Rapid Shot
12. Master Thrower// Whisperknife - Far Shot B: Snatch Arrows
13. Master Thrower// Whisperknife
14. Rogue // Whisperknife - Disruptive Attack ACF
15. Rogue // Whisperknife - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Rogue // Whisperknife
17. Rogue // Whisperknife
18. Rogue // Whisperknife - Daring Outlaw, Uncanny Bravery ACF
19. Rogue // Whisperknife
20. Rogue // Whisperknife

If flaws are available take 2 at 1st level, move Two Weapon Fighting and Far Shot to 1st level, and take Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment in their place (so that you can use a Ring of Blinking effectively, and mess up casters).

[Answerer]

Marrulurk from Sandstorm definitely deserves serious consideration here. Small, 3 Monstrous Humanoid RHD, LA +1, a stupidly enormous amount of ability bonuses (+22 in total, IIRC), Sneak Attack +3d6, Cha-based Death Attack, Poison Use, a Nauseating Breath, Point-blank Shot and Rapid Shot as Bonus Feats, bonuses to Hide, Move Silently, and Listen, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting.

You get everything you want for throwing except Two-Weapon Fighting and (probably) Far Shot. It's awesome.

[starship1]

Nice build gorfnab, two questions: why the levels in swashbuckler? 3 levels extra sneak attack is really worth loss of 2 bonus feats and whirling frenzy? why the rogue levels at the end? is there no other prestige class thats great for throwers?

[Mishkov]

Nice build gorfnab, two questions: why the levels in swashbuckler? 3 levels extra sneak attack is really worth loss of 2 bonus feats and whirling frenzy? why the rogue levels at the end? is there no other prestige class thats great for throwers?

Grace, int to damage, flavor, free weapon finesse, you were worried about multiclass penalty.

The build is really good though you could play around with the final rogue levels if you wanted to. It's good as it stands though. If flaws are allowed, Darkstalker is always a good choice too.

Marrulurk is a nice find too. Jesus that thing is good.

[starship1]

Is there any way I can get into Whisperknife with a MurraLurk?

[Answerer]

Probably not; there aren't a whole lot of feats that allow that sort of thing.

The best I can think of is take Whisperknife levels as a halfling, and then use polymorph any object to turn into a Marrulurk after the fact. That would be Permanent, not Instantaneous, though, so dispel magic could revert you to Halfling form. On the plus side, I think maybe the racial hit dice and level adjustment wouldn't apply to your actual level, even though you get their benefits... But I'm not certain that that is how the rules work.

[mregecko]

I personally would second the Bard route... Good saves and skills, and with a little Inspire Courage tweaking, you could get some really awesome +dmg with Dragonfire Inspiration.

Bard 4/Feat Rogue 1/Master Thrower 5// warblade 6/ Bloodstorm Blade4

(I personally like Bard4 / FtRogue1, but if you're super worried about multiclass penalties, go with Bard3/Ftr2. You just won't get any second level spells that way or the rogue skills).

I'd go TWF feat chain, nets you four attacks per round... With Palm Throw, you're going 8x daggers round. Which are all returning to you instantly with BloodStorm Blade.

With a little bit of Inspire Courage optimization, you can get +3d6 or +4d6 to each attack. Not too shabby.

Summary (32point buy):
STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 14

Gear: +Dex/Con gear, resist cloak, the normal stuff
Feats: WF(Dagger), PBS, Precise, Dragontouched, Dragonfire Inspiration, TWF, ITWF, (Extra), (Any from flaws).
Attack Sequence with some minimal gear would be:
+10(BAB)+6(Dex)+3(Enhancement)+1(PBS) = +20 ranged bonus.
ITWF and Palm Throw:
+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+13/+13 (1d4+change+3d6), ranged touch.

Some of my math may be off there... Doing this in kinda a hurry. For spells, go with the obvious Inspirational Boost, and whatever else floats your boat. Skills out the wazoo, nice saves, etc etc.

[hex0]

Needs some Halfling Paragon in there.

[Allanimal]

int to damage

There is some disagreement over whether the Swashbuckler's INT to damage applies to thrown weapons. Check with your DM before committing to it.