Is Serini still alive? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

prism6691

2012-10-25, 03:17 PM

Hey I've been wondering about if Serini might be still alive. Has there ever been confirmation that she is no longer alive?
I know Xykon has her diary/journal but if I remember correctly she didn't actually stay at Kraagor's gate. From what I understood she filled the place with monsters and then left never truly retiring.
Is there a chance that she might pop up somewhere along the line? Also apparently she stayed in contact with Girard so I wouldn't say it is out of the question that she might have found out what happened to Girard's descendants ect.

That is if she hasn't died of old age of course.

Grim Portent

2012-10-25, 03:35 PM

Dr.Epic

2012-10-25, 03:52 PM

To the best of my knowledge it hasn't been stated that Serini is alive or dead. As I recall, what we do know is that she never retired, Xykon has her diary, and she didn't respond to a sending spell from the Order.

Xykon has her diary and she never retired...
Xykon is Serini! Of course! It all makes sense now!:smallwink:

t209

2012-10-25, 03:56 PM

Xykon has her diary and she never retired...
Xykon is Serini! Of course! It all makes sense now!:smallwink:

Uhhh...
Nope! Start of Darkness showed Xykon as a sadistic child, therefore he was born AFTER Serini.

Dr.Epic

2012-10-25, 03:57 PM

Uhhh...
Nope! Start of Darkness showed Xykon as a sadistic child, therefore he was born AFTER Serini.

How do we know that wasn't secret Serini in disguise? I mean, we've never seen Xykon and Serini at the same place at the same time.:smalltongue:

Forum Explorer

2012-10-25, 04:52 PM

How do we know that wasn't secret Serini in disguise? I mean, we've never seen Xykon and Serini at the same place at the same time.:smalltongue:

Yes we have because Serini is clearly the MitD and has amnesia!

Tvtyrant

2012-10-25, 05:03 PM

Uhhh...
Nope! Start of Darkness showed Xykon as a sadistic child, therefore he was born AFTER Serini.

That was a boy named Xykon. But as we all know, all undead look exactly the same. Thus Serini simply killed Xykon and turned into an undead, disguising herself as a charismatic imbecile until the time was ripe.

Pokonic

2012-10-25, 06:14 PM

That was a boy named Xykon. But as we all know, all undead look exactly the same. Thus Serini simply killed Xykon and turned into an undead, disguising herself as a charismatic imbecile until the time was ripe.

Indeed. I mean, there's nothing to disprove the theory....

Dr.Epic

2012-10-25, 09:22 PM

I like how my crackpot theory is gaining "support.":smallwink:

Tebryn

2012-10-25, 09:50 PM

Uhhh...
Nope! Start of Darkness showed Xykon as a sadistic child, therefore he was born AFTER Serini.

Uhh...

Nope! Start of Darkness showed Xykon as a sadistic child, therefore he was born BEFORE Serini. Considering he's over one hundred years old. And the Order of the Scribble had disbanded only after he was an old man.

Finagle

2012-10-25, 09:57 PM

Halflings live longer, right? What's the rules on that? Girard is long dead in the present time. Serini seemed pretty adolescent in the crayon comics, what with her high school girl writing style.

I could see her still being alive when we get to the end of the story in 2018 or so. Then, she reveals what made OOTS break up in the first place and what Girard was so angry about that he attempted murder with his desert explosion trap.

prism6691

2012-10-25, 10:25 PM

Halflings live longer, right? What's the rules on that? Girard is long dead in the present time. Serini seemed pretty adolescent in the crayon comics, what with her high school girl writing style.
.

Thats the real question here. It wouldn't be unrealistic even if halfling lifespan was the same as humans. Dorukan was still alive 6 months before the beginning of the comic although he was ancient. Lirian too.

Now also keep in mind that everyone in the party has been represented as incredibly powerful in least in terms of being able to take on the toughest baddies in the comic (even if they lost those confrontations in the cases of Lirian and Dorukan).

If she is still alive and aware of the situation with the gates falling one by one she may end up showing up. If so thats another high level adventurer for the good guys.

Another thought, she had feelings for Girard right? Maybe once she finds out about V's effect on Girard's descendants...well that may not end well.

ti'esar

2012-10-26, 01:04 AM

the end of the story in 2018

Wow, you're optimistic.

Speaking seriously, I think it's likely. We've encountered all of the other gate-keepers in some form, and I doubt that Serini's diary would be all we get for her. Plus, she's the only surviving - and most trustworthy - source for what exactly went down back then anyway, which is still a major unanswered question. As for the technical details of her survival, it's not hard to speculate - halflings do live longer, and given that she's epic she may have some means of extending her life as well.

There's only one real reason I'd guess against it, and it's related to another unanswered question: just how did Xykon get the diary during his three missing years in SoD...?

factotum

2012-10-26, 02:45 AM

I'm in the opposite camp. Serini was the type who liked to wander the world adventuring, which is a high-risk profession, and you have to ask how Xykon came by her diary if she's still alive?

Mike Havran

2012-10-26, 05:46 AM

Arranis Thelmos

2012-10-26, 08:32 AM

She's in a box petting Shrodinger's cat.

Winter

2012-10-26, 09:28 AM

Hypertext (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm) says nothing of how can a Sending spell be dodged.

You can simply chose not to answer.

I think Serini is still alive and she's going to do some Plot Exposition before the comic fully launches into the last arc.

ReaderAt2046

2012-10-26, 10:41 AM

I think Serini is on the world inside the Snarl, along with Kraagor, Mijung Soon, and the Gods of the West.

Mike Havran

2012-10-26, 10:46 AM

You can simply chose not to answer.

So if I understand this correctly, the caster of the Sending spell can't know the difference between:

1. His/her spell reached the target, delivered the message, but the target did not respond.

2. His/her spell didn't reach the target at all, possibly because the target is dead.

Because V said she was unable to contact miss Toormuck, I automatically assumed that she didn't deliver the message at all.

King of Nowhere

2012-10-26, 10:55 AM

If I were to bet based solely on evidence, I would say it's morew likely she's dead, since she would not have surrendered her diary to xykon easily. Of course, she could have done just that - know when to walk away and know when to run, that kind of stuff. Anyway, there's enough argument to be made for an alive serini too.

Being this a story, it will be decided by narrative purpose, so there's really no saying

shadow_archmagi

2012-10-26, 11:27 AM

If video games have taught me anything, it's that people do not love their diaries. Serini probably tore her diary into 57 parts and then spread them throughout a dungeon, and Xykon painstakingly reassembled them because he wanted an achievement

sims796

2012-10-26, 12:08 PM

SlyJohnny

2012-10-26, 12:38 PM

Everyone is convinced that Serini is a non-entity, but look at the kind of stuff Right-Eye, as a high level rogue, was pulling. All sneaking in to human cities and making deals and buying positive-energy daggers on the sly, and shizz. Now imagine what shenanigans an epic level bard gets up to. So what if she doesn't have a fortress? It just makes her impossible to track down. She can know whatever she wants to know. I bet she knows about the Order and Xykon and everything.

She's probably all silly and comic relief-y, but you know who else is a goofy kind of character? Tarquin.

I'm telling, you guys. Serini be running this.

Finagle

2012-10-26, 01:38 PM

Remember Vaarsuvius was unable to contact Serini via sending, which means she is most likely already dead, or at least on another plane. Hypertext (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm) says nothing of how can a Sending spell be dodged.
Huh? How, exactly, is Serini supposed to reply? Sending is a one-way communcation. Serini can't cast spells.

CoffeeIncluded

2012-10-26, 01:46 PM

Huh? How, exactly, is Serini supposed to reply? Sending is a one-way communcation. Serini can't cast spells.

She can still cast off of scrolls.

Sweet merciful god, Giant, PLEASE get better soon!

Finagle

2012-10-26, 01:47 PM

I'm in the opposite camp. Serini was the type who liked to wander the world adventuring, which is a high-risk profession, and you have to ask how Xykon came by her diary if she's still alive?
Yeah, but Serini was with her group, and they all had tons of adventures and got to epic level. So, she passed the high-risk part of her career.

Her diary is the big question - how'd Xykon get it? The obvious answer is he tracked her down and killed her to get it. However, the author typically doesn't like the obvious answer unless it's funny. I like to think he found it in a library somehow, Gandalf-style. All we can do is speculate, seeing as there's nothing else to do until next year at least.

How do you go about finding something that you don't even know exists when you start? Xykon went questing for Gate information and ended up with Serini's diary. What are the A -> Z steps for something like that in D&D terms?

Finagle

2012-10-26, 01:51 PM

She can still cast off of scrolls.
How does anyone know if she even has the proper scroll lying around? Even so, she has to pass her caster check. Plus, she has to WANT to reply! If I was guarding a secret world-shattering ward I probably wouldn't say anything, especially to an unknown caller ID.

How many years has it been since OOTSc and the gate quest? Someone ask Belkar how long halflings live.

:belkar: "Not for long if I have anything to say about it!"

Throknor

2012-10-26, 02:19 PM

Huh? How, exactly, is Serini supposed to reply? Sending is a one-way communcation. Serini can't cast spells.

Maybe by using the 25 word response (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0733.html)?

Dr.Epic

2012-10-26, 07:53 PM

coineineagh

2012-10-26, 08:53 PM

Someone ask Belkar how long halflings live.

:belkar: "Not for long if I have anything to say about it!"

If Belkar is Serini's relative (:smallsigh: I know...), then it would explain why he's tagged along with the Order all this time.

weeping eagle

2012-10-27, 01:07 AM

She's in a box petting Shrodinger's cat.So she's simultaneously sweet and disturbed until you open the box?

Winter

2012-10-27, 04:40 AM

1. His/her spell reached the target, delivered the message, but the target did not respond.
2. His/her spell didn't reach the target at all, possibly because the target is dead.

You contact a particular creature with which you are familiar and send a short message of twenty-five words or less to the subject. The subject recognizes you if it knows you. It can answer in like manner immediately. A creature with an Intelligence score as low as 1 can understand the sending, though the subject’s ability to react is limited as normal by its Intelligence score. Even if the sending is received, the subject is not obligated to act upon it in any manner.

If the creature in question is not on the same plane of existence as you are, there is a 5% chance that the sending does not arrive. (Local conditions on other planes may worsen this chance considerably.)

You can answer with "up to 25 words", that includes 0. Also, you are not obliged to act on a Sending in any manner, this includes answering.

The rules are not clear on the details how it does not work, but if the sender knows something about a spell, the rules are usually clear. The fact they are silent here means the sender has no idea what happened to his sending once it was sent.

Because V said she was unable to contact miss Toormuck, I automatically assumed that she didn't deliver the message at all.

We do not know what Vaarsuvius actually meant or how the spell actually works in Rich's interpretation.
Vaarsuvius did not get an answer - make from it what you will. Vaarsuvius chose to tell the Order she was "unable to contact" and more we do not know.
It is very possible Serini is alive and received the Sending(s) but was unable (some form of Mind Bondage?) or simply unwilling to answer (Vaarsuvius could after all be preparing a trap or just poke if Serini is alive, it might be the smartest choice from the Halfling's point of view to leave "whoever just called me" in the dark).

On top of all that: If you stick to the rules, you should not be able to contact someone you do not know at all. Rich stretches the rules here, imo. This is subject to interpretation... what does it mean when the rules say "You can contact someone you are familiar with"? Can you contact someone you have not met but read about? What happens with an old friend you did not see for a decade? Are you not really familiar with him anymore after all that time? How well must I know the person to be "familiar" with him or her? Can you contact the King who you have seen twenty times when he gave a speech on the balcony but you never met him? All that is unknown and up the specific GM.
I just would not allow Vaarusivus casting a successful Sending to Serini (and neither should the Cleric of Loki been able to contact Durkon). The spells are driven by Plot-unobtainium here, imo (which is no problem, btw).

lio45

2012-10-27, 10:57 AM

Wow, you're optimistic.
I don't recall Rich's exact wording when he told us a few years ago that he was already past the halfway point of the story... he might have said "I'll keep doing OotS for less time than I've spent doing it up to now", or "There's more OotS done than there is OotS to come".

If he's talking halfway point in terms of number of comics, then 2018 is actually an optimistic forecast given Rich's average output for the last couple years.

On the other hand, if that halfway point was in terms of time, then there's still the question of whether or not Rich had accurately forecast his (lower-than-could've-reasonably-been-expected) output for the coming years at the time of the comment...

KillianHawkeye

2012-10-27, 11:13 AM

Well halflings live 30 years longer than humans do or longer, so if she is dead it is not because of old age. That's more or less certain.

Beyond that, we really have no clue until such time as the Giant decides to reveal what became of her.

In my opinion, she will be dead or otherwise incapable of helping the OOTS, since that fits with the existing pattern of 4 out of 4 Scribblers who are no longer in this world (Lirian and Dorukan dead and soul trapped, Soon a ghost, Kraagor killed by the Snarl). However, Serini can easily provide some plot exposition from beyond the grave if the OOTS can somehow get her diary back from Xykon.

prism6691

2012-10-27, 11:49 AM

Winter

2012-10-27, 12:13 PM

Good theory, but the problem is: Soon would not have lied. So while I see no problem in Soon omitting certain truths (Jedi lies) he would not have lied. So whatever Shojo told the Order must be what Soon told Shojo. It must either be what Soon (who had seen his wife getting eaten by the Snarl) thought to be true or what the others told him (Giard and Serini might have deceived him).
Given Soon was "there from the start" I find it unlikely Scribblers started with a massive untruth.

prism6691

2012-10-27, 12:25 PM

I think you might be overstating the" Paladin truth at all costs" thing. Being lawful good is more than following a code (at least to me). I would hope than a extremely high level (possibly epic) level paladin such as Soon might see that the greater good might have been better served with proper omission or deception.

ti'esar

2012-10-27, 07:14 PM

I don't recall Rich's exact wording when he told us a few years ago that he was already past the halfway point of the story... he might have said "I'll keep doing OotS for less time than I've spent doing it up to now", or "There's more OotS done than there is OotS to come".

If he's talking halfway point in terms of number of comics, then 2018 is actually an optimistic forecast given Rich's average output for the last couple years.

On the other hand, if that halfway point was in terms of time, then there's still the question of whether or not Rich had accurately forecast his (lower-than-could've-reasonably-been-expected) output for the coming years at the time of the comment...

...It was a joke.

snikrept

2012-10-27, 08:42 PM

Also putting my 2gp on "Serini discovered the Snarlverse isn't toxic and went there to be with Kraagor."

-----
Also, while Soon may not have lied to Shojo... Shojo was an admitted master liar. He might have totally embellished everything when he retold the tale to the Oots.

Dr.Epic

2012-10-28, 12:51 AM

If Belkar is Serini's relative (:smallsigh: I know...), then it would explain why he's tagged along with the Order all this time.

Of course they're related! Just like Thog and Therkla!:smallwink:

Winter

2012-10-28, 03:08 AM

...It was a joke.

I doubt that. But it was a very, very, very rough estimate that has an unclear frame of reference (time? story?) and talks about a development that has not yet happened and could easily be inflated by another 30% as the story unfolds.
All in all, I would not base anything on his comment besides "I did a lot of OotS so far and plan to do a lot more in the coming years".

ti'esar

2012-10-28, 04:49 AM

I doubt that. But it was a very, very, very rough estimate that has an unclear frame of reference (time? story?) and talks about a development that has not yet happened and could easily be inflated by another 30% as the story unfolds.
All in all, I would not base anything on his comment besides "I did a lot of OotS so far and plan to do a lot more in the coming years".

Not the Giant's "halfway over" remark - I meant my comment about OOTS ending in 2018 being "optimistic" was a joke, and thus did not need a full analysis of its accuracy.

lio45

2012-10-28, 11:30 PM

Yes, you can rest assured it was crystal clear that your comment was meant as a joke... hence my reply pointing out that, when one thinks a tiny bit more about it, your "joke" comment may, in fact, be right on the money.

Plus, it might not have "needed" an analysis, but that doesn't mean one can't be done ;)

draigan

2012-10-29, 01:17 AM

Ok simple explanation Serini is a polymorphed/gender belt Belkar thus explaining his awesome damage for his level and why he is not long for this world ;)

Throknor

2012-10-30, 02:50 PM

I'm reminded about what V says at the end of the Darth V arc. How they don't know everything about their quest as they would like. I'm thinking that its possible that while they (soon, lirian, girard, kraagor, dorukan, serini) removed all knowledge of the gates from the world they may have also spread misinformation about it to those that will eventually find out about it. Serini's diary may be a perfect example of that. The same thing goes for Shojo's knowledge of the gates because that was taught to him from the original source of Soon. If Serini is alive and there is more to the gates then what the order of the stick is aware of.....it only stands to reason that if she is alive she wouldn't respond to people that don't know the whole story.

Given that Xykon was able to find three gates so far I'd say that Serini's diary is fairly accurate in at least that regard, so it's unlikely to be part of any coverup. It's entirely possible no one else in the party knew she kept it, since they would have various non-agreeable reactions to the locations being recorded. We don't know what else is in it or, more importantly, how he acquired the diary. If she had it on her I wouldn't expect she survived the encounter.

Sorator

2012-11-07, 10:26 PM

So if I understand this correctly, the caster of the Sending spell can't know the difference between:

1. His/her spell reached the target, delivered the message, but the target did not respond.

2. His/her spell didn't reach the target at all, possibly because the target is dead.

Because V said she was unable to contact miss Toormuck, I automatically assumed that she didn't deliver the message at all.
As others have said, we don't know even strictly by D&D rules what exactly happens if the target chooses not to respond, much less how Rich takes it. It wouldn't be unreasonable to say that the caster knows the message was delivered, but it also wouldn't be unreasonable to say they can't tell the difference between non-delivery and non-response.

Also, for all we know Serini is (or was) within the realms of a cloister
-like abjuration that blocked the spell, rather than being dead (such as being within the Snarl). Or she could've been dead at the time and later resurrected - that's not exactly uncommon in the life of an adventurer.

Regardless, a non-responsive/failed Sending spell is hardly conclusive evidence as to her current state of being. After all, Haley wasn't dead when V couldn't reach her, despite spending enormous amounts of time and effort attempting to do so.

I'm reminded about what V says at the end of the Darth V arc. How they don't know everything about their quest as they would like. I'm thinking that its possible that while they (soon, lirian, girard, kraagor, dorukan, serini) removed all knowledge of the gates from the world they may have also spread misinformation about it to those that will eventually find out about it. Serini's diary may be a perfect example of that. The same thing goes for Shojo's knowledge of the gates because that was taught to him from the original source of Soon. If Serini is alive and there is more to the gates then what the order of the stick is aware of.....it only stands to reason that if she is alive she wouldn't respond to people that don't know the whole story.
Interesting possibility. I like, though I don't think it's very likely.

I think you might be overstating the" Paladin truth at all costs" thing. Being lawful good is more than following a code (at least to me). I would hope than a extremely high level (possibly epic) level paladin such as Soon might see that the greater good might have been better served with proper omission or deception.
See Good, not dumb. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) I doubt Soon would outright lie, but paladins aren't beyond careful misdirection (kind of like the Eragon books, where just because you're speaking in the ancient language doesn't mean you can always trust what they say, if they're sufficiently adept in its use).

ManuelSacha

2012-11-11, 12:48 AM

She should be.

The diary mistery doesn't need to be explained with "Xykon killed her".
Heh, Xykon never ever mentioned meeting her, not even in Start of Darkness.

As for dying for other (violent) reasons... nah. She's an epic character and just poured the most powerful monsters she could ever find into that tomb, then lost interest to it.
And this is a low-level setting.
Ruling out the most powerful monsters she could ever find, ruling out Team Evil, ruling out Tarquin (who doesn't know about her), ruling out the spliced magic users (who, as we know, are not connected to the plot in any way), ruling out the Snarl (which - epileptic trees (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EpilepticTrees) aside - has been so far under control)... there's basically nothing left on that planet that could kill her (or at least, nothing we know of).

I guess she might have died of old age, but I still think (for meta and non-meta reasons) that her being alive is much more likely.

Winter

2012-11-12, 05:31 AM

I think you might be overstating the" Paladin truth at all costs" thing. Being lawful good is more than following a code (at least to me).

Correct. But being a Paladin is following a code. You must do not evil. You must be lawful. You do not lie. (etc)
A Paladin has a code on top of being Lawful Good that drives Lawful Good to the max. They don't do all the things LG characters can "get away once in a while". Paladins are not allowed to lie and they usually don't - in case of Soon who really had the stick up his arse, I doubt we can assume he would lie to have it more convenient.

King Bosco III

2012-11-27, 06:25 AM

I have mixed beliefs on this one, and my conclusion relies strongly on assumption, but that's all one can ask for, so far. I think the strongest evidence that Xykon didn't kill Serini is that he didn't SAY he did. Knowing Xykon, he almost certainly would have gloated about the fact, almost as surely as Nale.
However, I believe it quite possible she is still dead, as she had a thing for Girard. We know from here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html) that the Familicide hit everyone who had Draketooth children, and I wouldn't be terribly surprised if that included Serini.

Also, fridge horror moment: if Penelope and Tarquin DID have a child, then Tarquin would have died, as well as Elan and Nale! Good thing Tarquin went out of his way not to... :smalleek:

Mike Havran

2012-11-27, 07:49 AM

Also, fridge horror moment: if Penelope and Tarquin DID have a child, then Tarquin would have died, as well as Elan and Nale! Good thing Tarquin went out of his way not to... :smalleek:

I don't think this is correct. Penelope didn't have (or at least nobody mentions it) the blood of the black dragon, only her child with Orrin had. Familicide stops after the first "intersection" of the bloodlines - it kills only the ABD bloodline and all "first-related" bloodlines. A child of Penelope and Tarquin would be "second-related" bloodline, and so would be Tarquin's bloodline.

A child of Penelope and Tarquin would be still "first-related" bloodline, but Tarquin and his family (Nale, Elan, other wives) would come "after" the intersection and would belong to a "second-related" bloodline.

factotum

2012-11-28, 01:53 AM

I don't think this is correct. Penelope didn't have (or at least nobody mentions it) the blood of the black dragon, only her child with Orrin had. Familicide stops after the first "intersection" of the bloodlines - it kills only the ABD bloodline and all "first-related" bloodlines. A child of Penelope and Tarquin would be "second-related" bloodline, and so would be Tarquin's bloodline.

Vaarsuvius disagrees, and since he cast the spell, one would hope he has a reasonable idea of what it does. He says in strip #843, referring to the people like Penelope who had borne children with a Draketooth:

"And I have extinguished their own family lines as well! Countless parents, siblings and children, dead--down to the last cousin. I am the one who slew Tarquin's wife! And had she borne him a child, I would have slain it as well!".