Versus #5

[Cranthis]

I'm going to give you guys two 3.5 classes, sometimes drastically different, sometimes very similar. I want to hear your opinions on who would win between the two, and why. The only rule is "Don't use tiers as your only means of explanation". This isn't any sort of contest, it is just a side by side comparison of classes.

Today's versus: Arcane Hierophant vs Mystic Theurge

Assume both are level 20 (this will not always be the case)

Use your own logic, and your own builds if you want, and explain which side you think wins.

This thread is for gathering general opinions, and is not intended to copy anything similar that may have been done already, excluding my own posts.

Book limits are Core, and Arcane Hierophant and its class abilities. ( This will not always be the case.

[eggs]

Don't most Arcane Hierophants also pack 4+ levels of Mystic Theurge? How's that going to work?

[Cranthis]

Neither may use the other one.

[toapat]

Core + Heirophant:

Hierophant wins, the existance of class features is much better

All Content:

Theurge wins, because you simply have to sacrifice good things to get a quality Arcane Hierophant, where as a Wizard/Archivist Theurge with proper entry is able to do much more then an Heirophant

[eggs]

In that case, this is essentially Druid+Wizard abilities v. Cleric+Wizard abilities.

I said in one of the previous threads that I think that independently the Cleric spell list has a number of advantages over the Druid spell list, and that its turning ability was given enough alternate uses to be a huge power boost, but in the limited source/grafted-to-wizard environment, there's little the Cleric can do that the Druid/Wizard can't (Cleric's big defensive buffs like Freedom of Movement, Heal and Death Ward are shared with the Druid, its big offensive spells are either shared with the Wizard, like Dispel and Summon Monster, are severely hurt by the CL loss like Blasphemy &c., or rely on the Cleric having either a reliable way of prebuffing or a robust chassis to really shine, like Divine Power/Righteous Might/Divine Power).

Without the Cleric's access to free metamagic, domain-shuffling or splatbook spell expansions, I think the AH's Wild Shape, Familiar-Companion, more diverse spell access and even improved chassis play strongly in its favor.

[Cranthis]

Core + Heirophant:

Hierophant wins, the existance of class features is much better

All Content:

Theurge wins, because you simply have to sacrifice good things to get a quality Arcane Hierophant, where as a Wizard/Archivist Theurge with proper entry is able to do much more then an Heirophant

Core only, as far as spells and such go.

[toapat]

Core only, as far as spells and such go.

that isnt the point, its not even a contest between MT and AH. AH is better when there is no access to Wiz/Archivist or Sorc/FVS and early entry tricks/

[Snowbluff]

I'm going to have to go with AH on this. Class features are good, and AnC Familiar and Wildshape are particularly good.

I will say that Cleric's list > Druid's list, but the Druid's list overlaps less for buffs.

[Kane0]

I cant make a judgment on this one sorry, I've neither played nor thoroughly looked into either one.

Given that MT sucks core only with a lack of ways to use the amount of spells he gets, I'd be inclined to say the AH has the upper hand with class abilities that complement the spellcasting.

[Snowbluff]

Wait. Druid can get into MT as well. Should be assuming a Druid entry into MT, to level the casting field?

[toapat]

I cant make a judgment on this one sorry, I've neither played nor thoroughly looked into either one.

Given that MT sucks core only with a lack of ways to use the amount of spells he gets, I'd be inclined to say the AH has the upper hand with class abilities that complement the spellcasting.

thats basically what it comes down to

Mystic Theurge is actually alot better, because Arcane Hierophant cant really be "cheated" into like Theurge. Thing is, we dont have that option, we are basically comparing which is better? Wiz 5/Druid5/AH10 or Wiz5/Cler5/MT10, and the answer is as a result, AH.


Wait. Druid can get into MT as well. Should be assuming a Druid entry into MT, to level the casting field?

in this case? it doesnt really matter, the same disadvantages ruin Mystic Theurge in the comparison

[Venusaur]

Wait. Druid can get into MT as well. Should be assuming a Druid entry into MT, to level the casting field?

Well, then AC is just MT with class features. No contest if that is a rule.

[Spuddles]

Core + Heirophant:

Hierophant wins, the existance of class features is much better

All Content:

Theurge wins, because you simply have to sacrifice good things to get a quality Arcane Hierophant, where as a Wizard/Archivist Theurge with proper entry is able to do much more then an Heirophant

Actually with all content, AH gets even better. Use versatile spellcaster to cast wizard 9 spontaneously. Druid9/wiz1/AH10. It's basically druid 19 and 11 levels of wizard spell slots. Versatile spellcaster and the wizard spell learning mechanic means access to high level wiz spells at a FASTER rate than wizards!

[HunterOfJello]

Arcane Hierophant wins because riding around shooting spells off of the top of a hyper-intelligent Gargantuan Megaraptor whose bite is always loaded with a nice touch attack spell is just too awesome.

[toapat]

Actually with all content, AH gets even better. Use versatile spellcaster to cast wizard 9 spontaneously. Druid9/wiz1/AH10. It's basically druid 19 and 11 levels of wizard spell slots. Versatile spellcaster and the wizard spell learning mechanic means access to high level wiz spells at a FASTER rate than wizards!

Except, here is the logical failures you are having when comparing Full content AH vs MT:

Mystic Theurge can, using quick entry tricks, get 17th level Wizard and Archivist Casting, with more spell slots per spell level then a wizard of level 20. At only a level behind Sorc/FVS for spell levels, its not enough penalty to consider

CL of over 17 (18 if spontaineous) is nigh-irrelevant anyway, as the stuff that scales for damage is less useful then the stuff that just uses CRs. You want slot numbers of the best Save or Dies you can muster. Druid? doesnt get core save or dies at 9th level. Wizard and Cleric/Archivist? Do.

Arcane Hierophant is screwed into using multiple casting attributes, and druid, the worst of the T1 classes in terms of casting, the only real benefit is that it advances Wildshape power.

[eggs]

Actually with all content, AH gets even better. Use versatile spellcaster to cast wizard 9 spontaneously. Druid9/wiz1/AH10. It's basically druid 19 and 11 levels of wizard spell slots. Versatile spellcaster and the wizard spell learning mechanic means access to high level wiz spells at a FASTER rate than wizards!
That's a weird argument.

Versatile spellcaster isn't a part of either class, and a Wizard 9/Archivist 1/Mystic Theurge 10 with spontaneous divination and versatile spellcaster could, by the same justification, cast wizard spells at the same rate as your VS-abuser, and Druid spells two levels sooner (as well as Cleric/Shugenja/Shaman/whatever).

[Spuddles]

Except, here is the logical failures you are having when comparing Full content AH vs MT:

Mystic Theurge can, using quick entry tricks, get 17th level Wizard and Archivist Casting, with more spell slots per spell level then a wizard of level 20. At only a level behind Sorc/FVS for spell levels, its not enough penalty to consider

CL of over 17 (18 if spontaineous) is nigh-irrelevant anyway, as the stuff that scales for damage is less useful then the stuff that just uses CRs. You want slot numbers of the best Save or Dies you can muster. Druid? doesnt get core save or dies at 9th level. Wizard and Cleric/Archivist? Do.

Arcane Hierophant is screwed into using multiple casting attributes, and druid, the worst of the T1 classes in terms of casting, the only real benefit is that it advances Wildshape power.

Lol, save-or-dies are terribad, especially after level 7 to 10 and definitely if you decide to neglect CL.

[toapat]

That's a weird argument.

Versatile spellcaster isn't a part of either class, and a Wizard 9/Archivist 1/Mystic Theurge 10 with spontaneous divination and versatile spellcaster could, by the same justification, cast wizard spells at the same rate as your VS-abuser, and Druid spells two levels sooner (as well as Cleric/Shugenja/Shaman/whatever).

it isnt even an argument.

the reason AH isnt as viable as MT with full content is that you an offset the huge problems of MT

with AH, you might as well not bother, unless you are going for ubermount


Lol, save-or-dies are terribad, especially after level 7 to 10 and definitely if you decide to neglect CL.

except Save or Dies dont go bad. Mailman is awesome because he deals rediculous damage to a single target, using a dedicated build.

SoDs? always are good

[Boci]

except Save or Dies dont go bad. Mailman is awesome because he deals rediculous damage to a single target, using a dedicated build.

SoDs? always are good

Not really. The mailman is a direct damage build, not a save or die one. Save or die is considered a waste, and rather limited (a lot have the death discriptor, making them easy to become immune to). Save or lose can be worth having, especially is you can target will or reflex, but the rate at which monster's saves scale makes them less useful towards the higher levels of play.

[Cranthis]

I really shouldn't interject, but who in their right minds doesn't use a mix of save-or-die and direct damage?

[toapat]

Not really. The mailman is a direct damage build, not a save or die one. Save or die is considered a waste, and rather limited (a lot have the death discriptor, making them easy to become immune to). Save or lose can be worth having, especially is you can target will or reflex, but the rate at which monster's saves scale makes them less useful towards the higher levels of play.

not all, is the keyword, and the death ones are typically not the ones worth getting (because they dont do anything else), Phantasmal killer and implosion are the most easily named ones that kick ass.

The mailman was specified because he is a railgun for direct damage.


I really shouldn't interject, but who in their right minds doesn't use a mix of save-or-die and direct damage?

anyone playing DDO once you unlock 5th (whereever phantasmal killer is) spellslots.

[Boci]

I really shouldn't interject, but who in their right minds doesn't use a mix of save-or-die and direct damage?

An efficient wizard. Buffing mean never having to worry about a monsters immunities, saving throw or spell resistence. Debuffing actually makes enemies weaker, and will typically lack the tags that renders save or die easily immuned. Battlefield control is a mix of the two.

Look at it this way: if you want to deal damage, what's going to do more, the extra attacks from haste, or fire ball? Often the answer if going to be the former.


not all, is the keyword, and the death ones are typically not the ones worth getting (because they dont do anything else), Phantasmal killer and implosion are the most easily named ones that kick ass.

No, they really don't. PK is a Fear and Mind-Affecting spell. Those immunities are common. Plus is requires two failed saves to have any serious effect.

Implosion targets fortitude. At those levels monster can easily have +25 to their fort saves. What's the DC?


The mailman was specified because he is a railgun for direct damage.

Which isn't save or die. Its often just die.

[Cranthis]

Again, as the maker and final judger etc I shouldn't interject, but I will this time.

Why not use haste and fireball?

[Snowbluff]

Well there is the purveyor of SoD/L. The SoD idea is inherently flawed, since the target is too weak to bother, and if it is strong enough for an SoD, it's saves are too high.

There is the God Wizard, who makes his party good. Works well because everyone loves buffs.

Then there is the Mailman. Works well because damage stacks with all other sources of damage, which is universal to all classes. Except Healer. Also, the Mailman does DoD (Die or Die).

[Boci]

Again, as the maker and final judger etc I shouldn't interject, but I will this time.

Why not use haste and fireball?

Because their are better spells to use then fire ball. Fireball also requires the enemies to be closely bunched together but seperate from your allies. Plus early on in the game you can't always cast two 3rd level spells / encounter.

[Cranthis]

I would still use a mixture of the two. Just in case.

[Spuddles]

That's a weird argument.

Versatile spellcaster isn't a part of either class, and a Wizard 9/Archivist 1/Mystic Theurge 10 with spontaneous divination and versatile spellcaster could, by the same justification, cast wizard spells at the same rate as your VS-abuser, and Druid spells two levels sooner (as well as Cleric/Shugenja/Shaman/whatever).

I just really value wildshape and spellbound companion. A genius warbeast fleshraker with stuff like animal growth, mental pinnacle and undermaster persisted on it, along with dragonbreath, girallon's blessing, some more spells to give it a poisonous bite and some tentacles, venomfire. You basically have leadership.

Then there's wildshape, which is awesome, especially if we're aberrant or dragonshaping, or cryohydra. Or storm elemental or immoth with elemental wildshape.

Summon nature's ally for orlash storm elementals or greenbound elephants is great too.

Druids just have spectacular efficiency, thanks to spontaneous SNA, a pet that can rather effortlessly be turned into a horror, and built in polymorphing.

For the first ten levels, I am fairly sure that my build will outperform most theurge builds. The last five will be a wash as MT catches up with spell slots and shapechange is on the table.


not all, is the keyword, and the death ones are typically not the ones worth getting (because they dont do anything else), Phantasmal killer and implosion are the most easily named ones that kick ass.

The mailman was specified because he is a railgun for direct damage.



anyone playing DDO once you unlock 5th (whereever phantasmal killer is) spellslots.

Phantasmal killer is nigh useless. 2 save or negates, on two commonly good saves, and it's fear, and it's mind affecting? Hahaha, what a bad spell.

[Snowbluff]

Kid, you're just spouting off. Phantasmal killer is nigh useless. 2 save or negates, on two commonly good saves, and it's fear, and it's mind affecting? Hahaha, what a bad spell.

Yeah, it's like one of the worst spells ever. Almost everything is immune to it. :smallbiggrin:

[HunterOfJello]

Again, as the maker and final judger etc I shouldn't interject, but I will this time.

Why not use haste and fireball?

Because you have a highly limited action economy as a spellcaster. Assuming you're walking around in a party of 4, you can use Fireball on your first turn and then choose to use haste on the second. However, by the time your second turn comes around, all of your allies are going to be spread out across the field of battle and you may not be able to reach all of them. You've also spent up the chance to give all of your allies that +1 to attack, reflex, dodge AC, increased movement speedand extra attack per full attack for the entire first round. That could be up to 3 extra attacks that would have been made during that last round. It could also have been the difference between your ally being able to move all the way to an enemy to attack it instead of only moving most of the way to it (and therefore not getting to attack it while its still flat footed). Buffing as fast as possible and while you still can is important in a fight. (That's why the War Weaver is so sexy)

Fireball is also a somewhat inefficient spell to open with since it is unlikely to take out many monsters and theoretically will just make the spellcaster a bigger target since all of those angry ogres/dragons/vampires/whatever now have their faces partially burnt off and probably aren't happy about it. Remember that a 10d6 fireball would do an average of 35 damage to each target in its area. That's a good way to kill lots of weak enemies, hit enemies from a long range (400+ ft!), or finish some enemies off, but it isn't going to make as large a difference as an opener as a highly efficient buff like haste could.

~

Phantasmal Killer makes me sad. It could have been a good spell, but the mind-affecting descriptor and double save just ruin it. Double saves sound great in theory, but in practice it means that the defender has about a 9.75% chance of rolling a natural 20 on one of the two rolls. A spell that has an almost 10% chance of doing nothing, regardless of the awesomeness of its caster, is pretty lame.

[toapat]

Yeah, it's like one of the worst spells ever. Almost everything is immune to it. :smallbiggrin:

when it shows up its nice, afterwards it blows because the next thing up has half the saves and a quarter the immunities effecting it

[Spuddles]

In real life games, blasting and cleavebots work out pretty well.

[HunterOfJello]

In real life games, blasting and cleavebots work out pretty well.

True. However, that cleavebot gets a hell of a lot sexier when he starts his first round of cleaving with the right buff on him. Enlarge person can change a close area cleave into a full battlefield massacre.

~

We're getting quite off topic now though.

I think there is an inherent problem in this matchup due to the fact that using only a sinlge theurge class for 10 levels generally defeats the purpose of playing a theurge. Ten levels isn't enough to get full progression out of anything but Ur-Priest. Taking Druid 7/Wizard 3 or something like that just doesn't make sense and isn't something anyone does.

Mystic Theurge has the advantage of early entry, which falls apart in core but is extremely important outside of it. Arcane Heirophant is lessened by being limited to Druid, but is nice because it has class features. In many ways, the two aren't actually comparable. One becomes the obvious choice for a handful of situations and the other becomes the obvious choice for a different handful of situations.

I don't see a situation in which I would have a build already in mind and then stop to think whether I want to pursue Arcane Heirophant or Mystic Theurge. The build would already dictate the optimum choice between the two and, as mentioned before, the two are often used in conjunction together. I can't choose a side in an argument between peanut butter and jelly. They're both great in their own ways and they're great together.

I think this battle should have the result of "Both" or "Neither" because both are great together or both are terrible because using a Theurge PrC in Core is usually a bad idea.

[Snowbluff]

True. However, that cleavebot gets a hell of a lot sexier when he starts his first round of cleaving with the right buff on him. Enlarge person can change a close area cleave into a full battlefield massacre.

True, but the Cleaver should have a way of making himself have more reach himself rather than waste his wizard's time on a 1st level spell.

[Acanous]

PK is a spell made to target Rogues and other high Ref classes with things like Evasion. It also, oddly enough, works on undead. (So long as they aren't the mindless sort, but why would you be blowing it on mindless undead anyhow? They're all mooks.)
Further, if you're a Gnome Wizard/Master Specialist/Dread Witch, your DCs are already uber-stupid-high. We're talking DC 10+4+INT bonus+2+2+1.
The pathetic monster only has a +25 to will, and his immunity no longer applies. That's like a confirmed kill waiting to happen. (30-40 int is doable in the same level bracket. Assuming they have an equal fort save? you're looking at 25% spell-to-kill ratio. Given that PK can be quickened, you can Belt of Battle another one in, and Celerity in a fourth? You're looking at a very high chance of getting a book thrown at you when you instagib the big bad.)
Finally, in Pathfinder, where all other SoD's got neutered, Phantasmal Killer still functions exactly as advertized.

As with all spells, it has a use. You've just got to use it properly.


Argument at hand: Arcane Heirophant. No contest. The things that Familiar Companion alone gives you tips the balance, and that's not the only class feature that AH gives you.

[Snowbluff]

Undead are immune to mind-affecting. And fortitude saves that don't affect objects, IIRC.

[Boci]

Yeah, it's like one of the worst spells ever. Almost everything is immune to it. :smallbiggrin:

On the plus side that does mean that if the spell is turned against you don't have much to fear.

In all seriousness, you get PK at level 7. You've got say an int modifier of +6, spellfocus, greater spell focus and its a 4th level spell, so DC: 22. Bear in mind I'm being fairly generous with the int modifier and am assuming 2 feats are being spent also.

Let's compare that to some CR: 7 monsters.

Aboleth - +11 will, +7 fortitude. 37.5% chance of dying. 12.5% chance of taking 3d6 damage. 50% chance of nothing.

Bullette - +6 will, +11 fortitude. 40% chance of dying. 40% chance of 3d6 damage. 20% chance of nothing.

Chaos beast - +7 fortitude, +6 will. 60% chance of dying. Better than half odds. Pretty good.

Chimera - 48% chance of dying.

You might think animals would be more suseptable. Not always. A lot of them at this stage have impressive fortitude modifiers. The elasmosaurus has only a 25.5% chance of dying. A dire bear has a 29.25% chance od dying.

[toapat]

On the plus side that does mean that if the spell is turned against you don't have much to fear.

In all seriousness, you get PK at level 7. You've got say an int modifier of +6, spellfocus, greater spell focus and its a 4th level spell, so DC: 22. Bear in mind I'm being fairly generous with the int modifier and am assuming 2 feats are being spent also.

Let's compare that to some CR: 7 monsters.

Aboleth - +11 will, +7 fortitude. 37.5% chance of dying. 12.5% chance of taking 3d6 damage. 50% chance of nothing.

Bullette - +6 will, +11 fortitude. 40% chance of dying. 40% chance of 3d6 damage. 20% chance of nothing.

Chaos beast - +7 fortitude, +6 will. 60% chance of dying. Better than half odds. Pretty good.

Chimera - 48% chance of dying.

You might think animals would be more suseptable. Not always. A lot of them at this stage have impressive fortitude modifiers. The elasmosaurus has only a 25.5% chance of dying. A dire bear has a 29.25% chance od dying.

The only reason i brought up PK is that it is in the SRD and doesnt have the Death descriptor, as well as being the first Core/SRD Save or Die

[Boci]

The only reason i brought up PK is that it is in the SRD and doesnt have the Death descriptor, as well as being the first Core/SRD Save or Die

That doesn't invalidate my maths. Plus you also seemed to really like the spell, so I wanted to show the the numbers.


when it shows up its nice, afterwards it blows because the next thing up has half the saves and a quarter the immunities effecting it

Your DM is unlikely to customize encounters against a spell that, in the best of circamstance, has a 40% chance of doing nothing/minor damage.

[toapat]

That doesn't invalidate my maths. Plus you also seemed to really like the spell, so I wanted to show the the numbers.



Your DM is unlikely to customize encounters against a spell that, in the best of circamstance, has a 40% chance of doing nothing/minor damage.

im going off of DDO where you cant get 9 hour naps at will. ive actually considered picking it up on my sorc (drow) to actually get some damn milage out of her manapool.. sure, id trade it out later, but the value of 1 spell, vs 8, for the same job, is not lost on me

[Boci]

im going off of DDO where you cant get 9 hour naps at will. ive actually considered picking it up on my sorc (drow) to actually get some damn milage out of her manapool.. sure, id trade it out later, but the value of 1 spell, vs 8, for the same job, is not lost on me

I can't comment about DDO as I've never played it, but this is a discussion about the table top game, where the situation is evidently different.

For example, compare the previous monsters' chances against glitterdust. A spell available 4 levels earlier, that targets multiple creatures, is a lot harder to be immune to, and also has a secondary affect.

[Cranthis]

He is correct about it being table top, and not DDO. Doesn't DDO use 4e anyways?

[toapat]

I can't comment about DDO as I've never played it, but this is a discussion about the table top game, where the situation is evidently different.

For example, compare the previous monsters' chances against glitterdust. A spell available 4 levels earlier, that targets multiple creatures, is a lot harder to be immune to, and also has a secondary affect.

Short Asside: In DDO, every Sorcerer runs mailman, and also has abilities that would make any good mailman gush (+75% Immunity Penetration and the ability to boost my spells in damage 10fold? yes). I, as a 7th level sorcerer, have absolute hell getting my damage to reach the point where it matters, I find myself spending 120+ mana on offensive spells when a 30 mana Phantasmal Killer would do the same job more efficiently. Even at lvl 8ish, when i would get the spell, half the enemies are undead. the half that are not, on the other hand (also barring one boss), would face alot of trouble from the spell.

also, alternatives like glitterdust arent available (a large section of the spell selection isnt there in DDO, Illusions is nigh absent barring PK)


He is correct about it being table top, and not DDO. Doesn't DDO use 4e anyways?


Ultra-Modified 3.5, up until they added epic levels in, the first 10 levels played more along the lines of normal 3.5, if you doubled the spells/day of Wizard/Cleric/Sorcerer/Favored Soul and stripped down the spell lists. They changed gear to scale much faster since then (enough so that AC actually matters, but i havent played the sorc since epic was instated)

[Acanous]

On the plus side that does mean that if the spell is turned against you don't have much to fear.

In all seriousness, you get PK at level 7. You've got say an int modifier of +6, spellfocus, greater spell focus and its a 4th level spell, so DC: 22. Bear in mind I'm being fairly generous with the int modifier and am assuming 2 feats are being spent also.

Let's compare that to some CR: 7 monsters.

Aboleth - +11 will, +7 fortitude. 37.5% chance of dying. 12.5% chance of taking 3d6 damage. 50% chance of nothing.

Bullette - +6 will, +11 fortitude. 40% chance of dying. 40% chance of 3d6 damage. 20% chance of nothing.

Chaos beast - +7 fortitude, +6 will. 60% chance of dying. Better than half odds. Pretty good.

Chimera - 48% chance of dying.

You might think animals would be more suseptable. Not always. A lot of them at this stage have impressive fortitude modifiers. The elasmosaurus has only a 25.5% chance of dying. A dire bear has a 29.25% chance od dying.

You get one of those feats for free with Master Specialist (Greater Spell Focus) and with the Least Illusion ability you get +2 to the DC of all Illusion spells that include a Will save. Plus there's the Gnome racial +1 bonus.
DC is 25, Aboleth has 35% of making the will, 15% making the Fort.
Bulette has a 10% chance of making the will, 35% of the Fort.
Chaos Beast is right proper screwed. 15%/10%.
This is assuming standard Gnome entry, which is Wizard 3/Master Specialist 4.

The highest chance of survival there goes to the Bulette, and highest chance of "Nothing happening" goes to the Aboleth. But you probably wouldn't bust PK out on an Aboleth anyhow, and if you did? That's still pretty darned good odds.

[TuggyNE]

He is correct about it being table top, and not DDO. Doesn't DDO use 4e anyways?

No, it's most closely based on 3.5.

However, the Christmas Tree effect is extremely prevalent on DDO; most characters have +4 enhancement items to their most important stat by level 7, and may add inherent and guild bonuses to that, not to mention scepters/staffs that boost DCs, and action points to spend on character enhancements (generally to boost casting stat, but also eventually DCs directly).

Due to those effects and others, it's not really practical to share tactics with tabletop, except in the broadest of terms.

[Boci]

You get one of those feats for free with Master Specialist (Greater Spell Focus) and with the Least Illusion ability you get +2 to the DC of all Illusion spells that include a Will save. Plus there's the Gnome racial +1 bonus.
DC is 25, Aboleth has 35% of making the will, 15% making the Fort.
Bulette has a 10% chance of making the will, 35% of the Fort.
Chaos Beast is right proper screwed. 15%/10%.
This is assuming standard Gnome entry, which is Wizard 3/Master Specialist 4.

The highest chance of survival there goes to the Bulette, and highest chance of "Nothing happening" goes to the Aboleth. But you probably wouldn't bust PK out on an Aboleth anyhow, and if you did? That's still pretty darned good odds.

So just think how good your odds would be if you were using a spell that only required 1 failed save.

Plus if the PCs have splat to increase their DCs, the enemies have splat to increase their saves.

[toapat]

No, it's most closely based on 3.5.

However, the Christmas Tree effect is extremely prevalent on DDO; most characters have +4 enhancement items to their most important stat by level 7, and may add inherent and guild bonuses to that, not to mention scepters/staffs that boost DCs, and action points to spend on character enhancements (generally to boost casting stat, but also eventually DCs directly).

Due to those effects and others, it's not really practical to share tactics with tabletop, except in the broadest of terms.

when are you supposed to have a ring of spell storing + +3 Cha item as sorc? thats about where i am.

I get off about 10 maximized Sonic blasts before going OOM (which is about accurate for the UA Mana rules)

[Arcanist]

The problem with this is that if the Arcane Heirophant tries to keep up with the Mystic Theurge is that it's going to miss out on Wild Shape [Which druid gets at level 5 and the earliest entry being 6th level (with 7th being your first Arcane Heirophant level)]

All in all if it is Core only and you're dead set on being a Theurge then Cleric/3 Wizard/3 Mystic Theurge/10 Archmage/4 is honestly the best thing you can do and get 9th level Arcane Spells and some neat class features. Where as if you go Druid/5 Wizard/3 Arcane Heirophant/10 you can get access to 9th level spells (by adding 2 more levels of Druid), but those spells pale in comparison to the Mystic Theurges... The major problem with Theurges is that in the short run, they kind of suck... but in the massively long run, they're pretty good...

With either of these I'm assuming we're doing point buy, which in my experience with Theurges is a little bit more effective then 4d6b3 :smalltongue:

EDIT: I'm not saying that the Druid spell list is bad in any way. I'm just saying that in a Core only setting a Cleric's spell list is a little bit better.

[LordBlades]

I would still use a mixture of the two. Just in case.

Assuming you're not playing a solo wizard, your turns are much better spent on debuffing/incapacitating the enemy and there should be somebody in your party who can put damage on incapacitated enemies at no expendable resource cost. Even if there isn't, summoning and especially calling spells are much better damage sources than fireball in the long run.

Back to the topic at hand, in an environment without early entry tricks and archivists or favored souls/mystics, arcane hierophant wins vs mystic theurge hands down due to providing everything MT provides plus a handful of extra features. Also, the cleric list in core has very few things sor/wiz can't duplicate, so I think a druid/wiz has access to a wider array of spells than a cleric/wiz

[toapat]

EDIT: I'm not saying that the Druid spell list is bad in any way. I'm just saying that in a Core only setting a Cleric's spell list is a little bit better.

Honestly? the best base creature for being a Theurge is a Housecat that got hit with an Intensified Awakening. (base 36 int), with LA buyoff so you can become the most dangerous housecat known to commoners.


also, the druids list is a bit better at healing/defense, while the cleric's is a bit better offensively (and further improved by access to offensive based domains)

[Acanous]

So just think how good your odds would be if you were using a spell that only required 1 failed save.

Plus if the PCs have splat to increase their DCs, the enemies have splat to increase their saves.

Well, if you were going Gnome Illusionist here, that +5 to DCs wouldn't actually apply to any other SoD. You could get it to +2 with 2 feats (Or 1 feat+Master Specialist, in a non-illusion school, if you went an entirely different build) but almost all illusionists will make use of Phantasmal Killer.

No, not all Wizards will be casting it. But to those who make a point of it, such as anyone going into the Dread Witch prestige class? It's a solid pick.

Heck, it's still good to have one at lv 7, just because there's not a whole lot that'd be immune to it, and it comes online earlier than any other SoD.

Finally, I'd like to see what Splat a Bulette is going to pull out to increase it's will save. o.0
The Aboleth, as well, isn't listed with enough treasure to swap out, and if you swap out it's feats, it's still vulnerable, just not as much, and sucks more in combat to boot.
If you've started having to modify the monsters in responce to the players using the spell? The spell does not suck. In fact, it has started an escalation war, marking it as supremely effective.

[Boci]

Well, if you were going Gnome Illusionist here, that +5 to DCs wouldn't actually apply to any other SoD.

And yet other spells with saving throws will still be more effective because they do not give the enemy two chances to escape the effect.


Finally, I'd like to see what Splat a Bulette is going to pull out to increase it's will save. o.0

Die hard + steadfast endurance I think.

Templates can also be put on lower CR creatures to net an overall higher set of saves.


The Aboleth, as well, isn't listed with enough treasure to swap out, and if you swap out it's feats, it's still vulnerable, just not as much, and sucks more in combat to boot.

Oh no, the aboleth no longer has alertness. Its so much weaker in combat now.


If you've started having to modify the monsters in responce to the players using the spell?

Its more about modifying monsters in response to the optimization level of the PCs. If none of them have taken +2/+2 skill feats, why should the monsters have them?

[Arcanist]

Honestly? the best base creature for being a Theurge is a Housecat that got hit with an Intensified Awakening. (base 36 int), with LA buyoff so you can become the most dangerous housecat known to commoners.


also, the druids list is a bit better at healing/defense, while the cleric's is a bit better offensively (and further improved by access to offensive based domains)

Catnip to the Cat God! Milk for the Milk bowl! and I can't remember the rest :smalltongue:

[Cranthis]

What would the LA even be for something that has 36 in all 3 mental stats?

[Spuddles]

Honestly? the best base creature for being a Theurge is a Housecat that got hit with an Intensified Awakening. (base 36 int), with LA buyoff so you can become the most dangerous housecat known to commoners.


also, the druids list is a bit better at healing/defense, while the cleric's is a bit better offensively (and further improved by access to offensive based domains)

Outside of Core, druids have a more offensively oriented spell list. Even within core, druids come up pretty close on clerics for offense- shillelagh, entangle, animal growth, and summon nature's ally are all great. Firestorm is an army ender. Acorn bombs is a more legitimate version of an explosive rune bomb. Treants are pretty good bruisers. They aren't angels, but still decent.

Then if we look at non-core material, we get into flaywind burst, sandblast, kelpstrand, venomfire, undermaster, storm lord or whatever that spell is that lets you fart lightning bolts, bite of weremonster, rock to lava, flash flood, and all sorts of huge area of effect stuff like blizzard.

If you look around, you'll find that the druid can end up doing most of the stuff a wizard can. Clerics just have a bunch of ways to get +to hit or heal stuff.


Well, if you were going Gnome Illusionist here, that +5 to DCs wouldn't actually apply to any other SoD. You could get it to +2 with 2 feats (Or 1 feat+Master Specialist, in a non-illusion school, if you went an entirely different build) but almost all illusionists will make use of Phantasmal Killer.

No, not all Wizards will be casting it. But to those who make a point of it, such as anyone going into the Dread Witch prestige class? It's a solid pick.

Heck, it's still good to have one at lv 7, just because there's not a whole lot that'd be immune to it, and it comes online earlier than any other SoD.

Finally, I'd like to see what Splat a Bulette is going to pull out to increase it's will save. o.0
The Aboleth, as well, isn't listed with enough treasure to swap out, and if you swap out it's feats, it's still vulnerable, just not as much, and sucks more in combat to boot.
If you've started having to modify the monsters in responce to the players using the spell? The spell does not suck. In fact, it has started an escalation war, marking it as supremely effective.

Go specialist conjurer or transmuter and pick a different save or have a bad day.

Anyway, when you're burning 3 feats, a class feature, and a prestige class to make a spell useable, it's not really the spell doing the heavy lifting.

Also: cumbrous will.

[HunterOfJello]

What would the LA even be for something that has 36 in all 3 mental stats?

What truly does or does not justify a level adjustment and what adjustment should be given to what benefit, is never properly defined.

Obtaining 36 in all 3 mental stats through a spell does not automatically give you a LA. However, if I were to assign one for some sort of Super Mentalist template, it would be pretty damn high.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I think Core + Arcane Heirophant really hurts both characters severely.

One could go Wizard/Archivist/MT or Sorcerer/Favored Soul/MT and be much better off.
The other could go Druid 8/ Suel Arcanamach 2/ AH and be better off than most other builds that don't include MT, but now that I consider it getting 9th level Wizard spells is probably going to be the best choice at level 20.
Also, neither one gets access to Practiced Spellcaster.

For Core-only + AH at level 20, Astral Projection plus the Divination school makes it pretty much unwinnable for both.

[toapat]

What would the LA even be for something that has 36 in all 3 mental stats?

not all 3, just int, the cat's Cha is 13 and wis is 12

realistically, the LA should be something more akin to +8-+12, but the way awaken works, the LA doesnt exist, you just have to buyout a single D8 of HP


Edit: the scary part? That is SRD material only

[Boci]

not all 3, just int, the cat's Cha is 13 and wis is 12

realistically, the LA should be something more akin to +8-+12, but the way awaken works, the LA doesnt exist, you just have to buyout a single D8 of HP

Plus the situation does require a druid casting a 13th level spell on you. Even with MMR, the druid would still need to be epic. Although I guess it could be cast off a scroll.

[Acanous]

And yet other spells with saving throws will still be more effective because they do not give the enemy two chances to escape the effect.
Depending. The monster may have a lower chance to save than he would if you threw just a Fort-Targetting spell (For sake of argument, assume there IS another spell that could kill them that is lv 4, targets Fort, and not an illusion) because that spell would have -5 from the DC. Someone who would only succeed on PK with a roll of 18+/15+ only needs to roll 10+. The chances are in favor of PK here. If they roll a 19, they'd have rolled a 19 anyhow and it'd have beaten the other save just as easilly. While this gives them an additional roll, remember that the added roll is actually to determine Damage or Death.

The initial roll is "Spell works/Does not work" and you're not going to get any spell that'll give you that much potential at that level, without investing into TO like Mailman, and even then, not at lv 7. Even other, higher level SoD's usually have a "Save negates". PK just gives a second save to take damage instead of dying.


Templates can be put on lower CR creatures to net an overall higher set of saves.

Now the CR has increased. Either you're sending this at a higher level party (In which case, upon gaining lv 8, the DCs immediately increase by 1, so good luck there) or you're sending it at a lv 7 party, meaning one spell selection has now netted the party greater XP and loot. Plus this shows that yes, you're escalating in responce to Phantasmal Killer. Swapping feats and treasure is acceptable as far as splat goes. When you beef the monster by CR? That's escalation.


Oh no, the aboleth no longer has alertness. Its so much weaker in combat now.
Its more about modifying monsters in response to the optimization level of the PCs. If none of them have taken +2/+2 skill feats, why should the monsters have them?
Point. The Aboleth now has +2 to Will instead of +2 to Spot/Listen. Sadly, Hide is a class skill for illusionists, who can now hit the Aboleth with PK in a surprise round. Greater chance to survive, but stacked against a chance to never even get to roll initiative.

As an aside, I approve of this swap out and would do it myself. It's not like most parties EXPECT an Aboleth, or go out HUNTING one.

[toapat]

Plus the situation does require a druid casting a 13th level spell on you. Even with MMR, the druid would still need to be epic. Although I guess it could be cast off a scroll.

if your DM greenlights you rolling a character who needs an Epic Druid in their native form, even if said character's lifespan is 7 years, you should really hope you dont need the kind of power a Wizard2/Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge 10/Legacy Champion 6/Mystic Theurge Epic can bring to the table.

[Cranthis]

Well, lets assume that because you are a magical beast, you age like a human. Bam. So, just backstory it up, and you are good.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Doesn't matter, Astral Projection.

Whichever one doesn't use that will automatically lose, because he has no victory condition.

If neither one uses that, then it's just Rocket Tag and it comes down to initiative. That means Moment of Prescience wins (which is not rolled against a set DC, it's rolled against other rolls so it is definitely an opposed roll). Both characters could get that as well, so beyond that it's just luck of the dice.

[Arcanist]

if your DM greenlights you rolling a character who needs an Epic Druid in their native form, even if said character's lifespan is 7 years, you should really hope you dont need the kind of power a Wizard2/Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge 10/Legacy Champion 6/Mystic Theurge Epic can bring to the table.

You forgot to add the racial hit die that Cat's have. (not sure if a ½ HD means anything, but in my eyes it does!).

[Boci]

Depending. The monster may have a lower chance to save than he would if you threw just a Fort-Targetting spell (For sake of argument, assume there IS another spell that could kill them that is lv 4, targets Fort, and not an illusion) because that spell would have -5 from the DC. Someone who would only succeed on PK with a roll of 18+/15+ only needs to roll 10+. The chances are in favor of PK here. If they roll a 19, they'd have rolled a 19 anyhow and it'd have beaten the other save just as easilly. While this gives them an additional roll, remember that the added roll is actually to determine Damage or Death.

The initial roll is "Spell works/Does not work" and you're not going to get any spell that'll give you that much potential at that level, without investing into TO like Mailman, and even then, not at lv 7. Even other, higher level SoD's usually have a "Save negates". PK just gives a second save to take damage instead of dying.

Cool. Through made up circamstances, you came up with an instance where PK is superior to a hypothetical spell.

Even ghoul touch is better, and that isn't considered that good a spell. Yeah PK can damage, but 3d6 is nothing to right home about at level 7, and its only going to get worse from there.

Boosting the DC that high is fine, as long as you don't intend to cast another will save spell. How many DMs are going to risk that?


Now the CR has increased. Either you're sending this at a higher level party (In which case, upon gaining lv 8, the DCs immediately increase by 1, so good luck there) or you're sending it at a lv 7 party, meaning one spell selection has now netted the party greater XP and loot. Plus this shows that yes, you're escalating in responce to Phantasmal Killer. Swapping feats and treasure is acceptable as far as splat goes. When you beef the monster by CR? That's escalation.

Wjay did you think the word "lower" signified? It meant giving templates to a creature who had less than CR: 7, for a net result of a CR: 7 monster with higher saves.

[toapat]

Well, lets assume that because you are a magical beast, you age like a human. Bam. So, just backstory it up, and you are good.

im working out Mouskers, Lord Magus atm, im wondering though if i should get the +int to HP feat though because of his absurd Int, and horrible well, everything else. (you can get Int to HP, will/reflex saves)


You forgot to add the racial hit die that Cat's have. (not sure if a ½ HD means anything, but in my eyes it does!).

im considering the 1/2 HD overwritten by the granted 2d8

[Acanous]

Cool. Through made up circamstances, you came up with an instance where PK is superior to a hypothetical spell.

Even ghoul touch is better, and that isn't considered that good a spell. Yeah PK can damage, but 3d6 is nothing to right home about at level 7, and its only going to get worse from there.

Boosting the DC that high is fine, as long as you don't intend to cast another will save spell. How many DMs are going to risk that?

The circumstances aren't made up, though. There aren't any other SoD's that low, nor as easilly optimized for. I could run a lv 7 Gnome Illusionist with all 4 of his lv 4 spell slots prepped as "Phantasmal Killer" and he'll still manage to contribute just fine in non-PK-applicable situations. In PK-applicable situations, he'll end the encounter on his first turn, something like 65% of the time. This rate actually increases if what he's fighting is say, other humanoids. (Most classes at lv 7 are lucky to have +7 Will. Even other casters will rarely break +10, and those are either cleric/druid. Of the two, only the Druid has an equally respectable Fort.)


Wjay did you think the word "lower" signified? It meant giving templates to a creature who had less than CR: 7, for a net result of a CR: 7 monster with higher saves.

Ah, but your comment was made when I asked about a Bulette. Thus inferring you would apply the template to it. Lower CR monsters? Sure. They usually lose more than they gain. Even templates that offer mind-affecting immunity generally make the monster weaker despite making them immune to PK. There are some notable exceptions (Such as Swarm), but they still come with vulnerabilities.
There may be a template or two that would immunize a monster while also not making it easier to kill through other means, but those are campaign changers. People are going to wonder where the Mind Flayers are in this dungeon when you start Void-Minding your mooks.

[Spuddles]

Reach Ghoul Touch would be better.

[Acanous]

Reach Ghoul Touch would be funny XD.

There is a place for Phantasmal Killer. That would help a Gnome Illusionist get through the low-mid levels and into, say, Shadowcraft Mage/Shadowcrafter with no further investment. Everything that applies to PK applies to Silent Image spam there, and your DM throwing Mind-immune things at you won't matter anymore.

[Boci]

The circumstances aren't made up, though.

Yes they were. You said "Let's pretend this fort SoD spell exists and an enemy with these exact save modifiers exists". It struck me as lazy and contrived given that I had used real monsters.


There aren't any other SoD's that low, nor as easilly optimized for. I could run a lv 7 Gnome Illusionist with all 4 of his lv 4 spell slots prepped as "Phantasmal Killer" and he'll still manage to contribute just fine in non-PK-applicable situations. In PK-applicable situations, he'll end the encounter on his first turn, something like 65% of the time. This rate actually increases if what he's fighting is say, other humanoids. (Most classes at lv 7 are lucky to have +7 Will. Even other casters will rarely break +10, and those are either cleric/druid. Of the two, only the Druid has an equally respectable Fort.)

That's great. Do you know why your character can contribute to non-PK situations despite knowing no other level 4 spells? Because lower level spells are still good in comparison. And if the enemies are failing both saves against PK 65% of the time, what % of the time are they failing their will saves against glitter dust and phantasmal strangler? Your forcing your DM to give PK a chance and allow other spells to utterly dominate when you decide not to cast it, or build monsters that will easily survive PK and have a chance against single save spells. Not to mention PS and GD are more party friendly spells.


Lower CR monsters? Sure. They usually lose more than they gain. Even templates that offer mind-affecting immunity generally make the monster weaker despite making them immune to PK. There are some notable exceptions (Such as Swarm), but they still come with vulnerabilities.
There may be a template or two that would immunize a monster while also not making it easier to kill through other means, but those are campaign changers. People are going to wonder where the Mind Flayers are in this dungeon when you start Void-Minding your mooks.

I find it strange you seem to think it would be impossible to tweak monsters without altering the campaign in some major way. And its not about making creatures immune. If the DM wants that they can just use CR: 7 creatures who are immune.

[Darius Kane]

The problem with this is that if the Arcane Heirophant tries to keep up with the Mystic Theurge is that it's going to miss out on Wild Shape [Which druid gets at level 5 and the earliest entry being 6th level (with 7th being your first Arcane Heirophant level)]
AH won't miss out on Wild Shape. He gains it even if you enter him with less then 5 Druid levels. Druid and AH levels are counted together for that purpose.
And I believe that the earliest entry for AH is 7th level, unless you're talking about some early entry trick shenanigans.