Dweomer Keeper

[LTwerewolf]

Looking over it, I don't immediately see the shenanigans everyone's talked about with it. What specifically makes it so terrible to deal with?

[VGLordR2]

Imagine Wish as a Supernatural ability...

[LTwerewolf]

Is that the only thing? There are a lot of other ways to go about that same thing. I thought there was something that made it uniquely broken.

[Mithril Leaf]

Is that the only thing? There are a lot of other ways to go about that same thing. I thought there was something that made it uniquely broken.

Name them.

[LTwerewolf]

First thing that comes off the top of my head is planar shepherd.

[Mithril Leaf]

First thing that comes off the top of my head is planar shepherd.

That's SLA, not SU. Close but no cigar. Also, Planar Shepherd is to Druid as Dweomerkeeper is to Cleric and Incantrix/Red Wizard is to Wizard. Next shot?

[LTwerewolf]

Assume supernatural ability?

edit: also the planar shepherd's is supernatural, not SLA as long as the outsider's is supernatural.

In addition to the normal
effects of wild shape, you gain all the elemental or outsider's
extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities.

[Namfuak]

That's SLA, not SU. Close but no cigar. Also, Planar Shepherd is to Druid as Dweomerkeeper is to Cleric and Incantrix/Red Wizard is to Wizard. Next shot?

Unless I'm reading Mantle wrong, the spell itself would be cast normally. The mantle ability allows you to (supernaturally) cast a spell spontaneously like a cleric spontaneously casts spells, but the cleric ability still casts the spell normally.

[urandom]

The supernatural ability piercing all spell resistance also makes it a go to for guaranteed destruction.

[LTwerewolf]

So it's more of the same shenanigans but in a different flavor than anything new brought to the table. But wouldn't the need to cast arcane spells and divine spells hamper things for them?

[Mithril Leaf]

Assume supernatural ability?

edit: also the planar shepherd's is supernatural, not SLA as long as the outsider's is supernatural.

In addition to the normal
effects of wild shape, you gain all the elemental or outsider's
extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities.

But which monster on which plane has wish as an su ability?


Unless I'm reading Mantle wrong, the spell itself would be cast normally. The mantle ability allows you to (supernaturally) cast a spell spontaneously like a cleric spontaneously casts spells, but the cleric ability still casts the spell normally.

The Mantle of Spells does indeed do that. The Supernatural Spell ability is what we're discussing though.

[eggs]

So it's more of the same shenanigans but in a different flavor than anything new brought to the table. But wouldn't the need to cast arcane spells and divine spells hamper things for them?
Magical Training or Anyspell remove the major drawback.

Plus, on top of Su hijinks and extra spell flexibility, there's the metamagic reduction, which is always abusable.

[rweird]

Su Invisible Spell prismatic sphere. You are in a practically unbreakable bubble that no-one sees, any smell dead charger? Use Su permanency, now you have a barrier that can only be taken out by spell casters with a very specific spell selection, and if you let them, if you have Initiate of Mystra, stand in your Su AMF surrounding the Prismatic Sphere and nothing save another Initiate of Mystra, or a deity could possibly break that barrier (barring things like manipulate form for a custom ability that grants immunity to AMF).

There are other ways to get Su spell, cleric 20 could with DMM heighten, extra spell slot, silent spell, still spell, quickened spell, envy domain, Innate Spell (Complete Arcane version), and Supernatural Transformation (Savage Species), though that is a lot more complicated than Dweomerkeeper.

[Alleran]

But which monster on which plane has wish as an su ability?
Efreets from the Plane of Fire. Solars from Celestia. Glabrezu/Pit Fiends from the Hells. Zodars from, well, whatever plane Zodars are from (Mechanus?).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Efreets from the Plane of Fire. Solars from Celestia. Glabrezu/Pit Fiends from the Hells. Zodars from, well, whatever plane Zodars are from (Mechanus?).

Those are all spell-likes, not supernatural abilities. (except maybe zodar, I don't have my FF in front of me.)

[Namfuak]

The Mantle of Spells does indeed do that. The Supernatural Spell ability is what we're discussing though.

I must be looking at the wrong Dweomerkeeper then, what book is this from?

[VGLordR2]

Efreets from the Plane of Fire. Solars from Celestia. Glabrezu/Pit Fiends from the Hells. Zodars from, well, whatever plane Zodars are from (Mechanus?).

Every one of these examples is a Spell-Like ability, not a Supernatural ability.


I must be looking at the wrong Dweomerkeeper then, what book is this from?

The Dweomerkeeper was originally printed in Faiths and Pantheons. However, they were later updated in this Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a).

[Palanan]

Is there a Dweomerkeeper Handbook or the like, for those of us who are a little behind the Playground's curve?

[kardar233]

Every one of these examples is a Spell-Like ability, not a Supernatural ability.

The Zodar's one is a (Su) ability. Handy for Wish-spam teleporting an enemy somewhere nasty, like Dispater's fortress.

[VGLordR2]

The Zodar's one is a (Su) ability. Handy for Wish-spam teleporting an enemy somewhere nasty, like Dispater's fortress.

Well, this is embarrassing. The Zodar was the only monster whose ability I did not check before making that post. I was so confident that it was a Spell-Like ability.

Can Planar Shepherds use Wild Shape to turn into Constructs, though? I was under the impression that they couldn't.

[Alleran]

Every one of these examples is a Spell-Like ability, not a Supernatural ability.
Ah, my apologies. I read it wrong. As mentioned, however, the Zodar ability is a supernatural one. And, of course, any of those who take the Supernatural Transformation feat can turn their SLA into a supernatural ability.