ToB: AoO/Lockdown build or Charger build?

[ranger557]

Hi all, I am currently in a 3.5 game being run in the forgotten realms setting and I chose to be one of the main melee characters. Right now, we have a rogue, a sorceress, and a dervish fighter. I liked the concept of the skilled and trained warrior, and I became a Human Warblade. I chose to be a tactical character and went the AoO/Lockdown approach.

However, a player of my group says that AoOs are only trigger once from an enemy and not multiple times if they provoke and you are able to (eg. combat reflexes). My question is that true? Is that how AoOs work? All this time I thought making each provoke action could caused an AoO if you can make the attack. I will post my build below.

My next question is from a ToB class approach. Is an AoO/Lockdown build good to go with? Or is a charger more viable and better to use with a ToB class?

Human Warblade Lvl 5
HP: 62
AC: 20

Str: 18
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 11

Weapon: +1 Spiked chain
Feats: combat reflexes, combat expertise, improved trip, jotunburd, standstill, and EWP(Spiked chain).
Flaws: Shaky

Maneuvers: steel wind, moment of perfect mind, leading the attack, emerald razor, wall of blades, and Iron heart surge.

What other feats besides robilars gambit and defensive sweep would be good to obtain? What maneuvers compliment this build well? I was deciding to dip two levels in crusader to get the thicket of blades stance.

Also if a charger is better for a ToB build. Then besides the uberchargers feats, which i know quite a bit. What good maneuvers would compliment this build?

Thanks for any suggestions :smallbiggrin:

[Medic!]

Your friend is half-right about AoOs.

All the AoOs you have available via Combat Reflexes can be taken each round.

Each provoking action only provokes one AoO. For instance if a creature moved right past you, through your threatened area, that would provoke 1 AoO (moving out of a threatened square.) Even though the creature left multiple threatened squares, he did so with one action, so one AoO.

Now say that creature moves up to you from 20ft away, then tries to shoot you in the face with a crossbow. You get one AoO for him leaving a threatened square (with your 10ft reach from the spiked chain), then a second AoO from him firing a ranged weapon inside your threatened area.

EDIT:

With your group set-up, a lockdown build will probably be more appreciated than a charger, since it will offer your rogue and dervish allies (and to an extent even your sorcerer) to monopolize on flanking and face-smashing opponents while you keep them controlled. Personally I'm a big fan of more Crusader, their maneuvers and stances are made for lock-down. Just with Stand Still and Defensive Rebuke, for example, you could theoretically lock a monster down out of reach from yourself, forcing it to (most likely) attack the snot out of one of your other fighters or a summoned creature within reach, provoking an AoO every time it attacks. Not to mention being a Crusader means you can take that Vicious weapon, and get a little bonus attack and damage from your Furious Counterstrike.

For the most part, your feats look spot-on for lock-down. A lot of folks like to have Power Attack to get a better Stand Still DC.

[Gwendol]

I like the Mage Slayer line of feats as well: denying casters the option to cast defensively is a huge deal, especially with reach.

You probably want to get big (enlarge person) from time to time to cover an even larger area.

A few levels of Knight gives you Bulwark of Defence, which complements the thicket of blades stance nicely. Difficult terrain just says "no" to 5' steps.

[Medic!]

The Bulwark ability would overlap unfavorably with Thicket of Blades. Personally I love the combo you're going for with Thicket of Blades and Defensive Sweep..."Move or I hit you." "Ok, I 5-foot-step." "Cool...THWACK"



Being large is also something you want as often as possible...though it'll make Jotunbrud pretty much worthless, since all it does is let you be "treated as Large" for the purpose of opposed rolls that receive size modifiers and for the purpose of monster special abilities like swallow whole.

You might ask your DM if that's something you can retrain later, or if being a regional/racial feat that you're stuck with it.

[Malroth]

I think this might work better as a Half giant Psi-war 2 => warblade/crusaderX

[Gwendol]

The Bulwark ability would overlap unfavorably with Thicket of Blades.

How so? BoD makes threatened squares difficult:

Difficult Terrain
Difficult terrain hampers movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. (Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares.) You can’t run or charge across difficult terrain.

This enhances Thicket of Blades. Normally, a Crusader can't do much against tumblers (since tumbling=no AoO), but with BoD, tumblers that start movement in threatened squares may have a harder time getting out or around the crusader/knight due to the doubled movement cost. Double movement cost is good for stopping chargers too.

[ranger557]

Thanks for the clarification so I think an AoO build is worth, on how you described it. However, I like the concept of the warblade and his techniques thats why I am favoring it more. So what other feats should I get? Power attack? the mage slayer feats? I think the mage ones would be good and I suppose power attack or what about stormguard feat?

Also the two level dip from Crusade should help me a lot with the thicket of blades stance. What other warblade maneuvers are good for a AoO build? Also the reason I thought of charger was because I think my team doesnt need a AoO....everybody is almost minmaxing.....whats up with not enjoying roleplaying your character anymore =/ lol. The sorceress is the most powerful out of all of us and a little annoying with her dragon god lady telling to keep all treasure LOL -__-. Anywho, How effective can I be with this Warblade/Crusader AoO build? or instead of Crusader should I go Fighter instead?

[Endarire]

Crusader Handbook 1 (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2645.0)

Crusader Handbook 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181655)

[Medic!]

How so? BoD makes threatened squares difficult:


This enhances Thicket of Blades. Normally, a Crusader can't do much against tumblers (since tumbling=no AoO), but with BoD, tumblers that start movement in threatened squares may have a harder time getting out or around the crusader/knight due to the doubled movement cost. Double movement cost is good for stopping chargers too.

Thicket of Blades forces provocation of an AoO for any form of movement, including 5ft steps and the Withdraw action, tumbling won't bypass Thicket of Blades, as it's still movement. From a meta-game standpoint, making the area around you difficult terrain would discourage or disallow 5ft steps, charges, etc, meaning less chance of getting those tasty AoOs.

With reach and Thicket, incoming chargers or tumblers are (hopefully) going to be stopped dead by a trip or a Stand Still on the AoO.

Crusaders do everything backwards, lol...they say "Go ahead, take that 5ft step" or "Go ahead, hit me, I dare you!"

[docnessuno]

My personal lockdown combo is:


Core:
EWP: spiked chain (reach!)
Combat reflexs (required for the whole concept)
Thicket of Blades (AoO if you move)
Stand still (Turns that AoO into a full stop)
Mage slayer (No defensive casting)
Robilar's gambit (AoO if you attack me, also synergizes with crusader's furious counterstrike)

Optional:
Bulwark of defense (a bit superfluos when you ahve the whole core combo running, but still not a bad perk)
Inhuman Reach / Deformity: Tall (increasing reach is nice)
Rest of the Mage slayer line (caster usually mean trouble)
Close-Quarters Fighting (helpful against grapplers)
Defensive Sweep (more AoOs!)
Supernatural Instincts / Supernatural Opportunist (AoOs for Sop!)

[Gwendol]

Thicket of Blades forces provocation of an AoO for any form of movement, including 5ft steps and the Withdraw action, tumbling won't bypass Thicket of Blades, as it's still movement. From a meta-game standpoint, making the area around you difficult terrain would discourage or disallow 5ft steps, charges, etc, meaning less chance of getting those tasty AoOs.

With reach and Thicket, incoming chargers or tumblers are (hopefully) going to be stopped dead by a trip or a Stand Still on the AoO.

Crusaders do everything backwards, lol...they say "Go ahead, take that 5ft step" or "Go ahead, hit me, I dare you!"

Thicket of blades explicitly does not mention tumbling in the types of movement that would provoke an AoO when in that stance. Therefore tumbling is certainly a way to get around the crusader.

[docnessuno]

Thicket of blades explicitly does not mention tumbling in the types of movement that would provoke an AoO when in that stance. Therefore tumbling is certainly a way to get around the crusader.

Go and re-read Thicket of blades.
the exact wording is "any sort of movement"
The withdraw action must be singled out simply because it doesn't deny the AoO, but instead makes you count the starting movement square as non-threatened, and this would also invalidade Thicket of blades.

[Medic!]

The full text from Thicket of Blades:

While you are in this stance, any
opponent you threaten that takes any
sort of movement, including a 5-foot
step, provokes an attack of opportunity
from you. Your foes provoke this attack
before leaving the area you threaten.
Your opponents also cannot use the
withdraw action (PH 143) to treat the
square they start in as no longer threatened
by you.

ToB has a few spots where the short-text and the full-text don't agree at all. Thicket's short just says "5ft step provokes AoO" which is true, but misleading. Another culprit is the Shadow Blade feat. The table says you replace str with dex, but the actual text of the feat just says you add dex to your damage roll. I've been suckered many times by not diving deep enough in the booking pool.

[Gwendol]

Tumbling explicitly states it does not provoke. Which of the two texts get precedence?

[Medic!]

A 5ft step also explicitly states that it doesn't provoke. While it is called out specifically by the text of Thicket of Blades, it also says "any movement, including a 5ft step." Specific trumps general would mean that since tumbling is movement, Thicket of Blades would still grant an AoO for tumbling.

The "including a 5ft step" clause isn't exclusive. If the stance was meant to not grant an AoO for tumbling, it would simply read "Any creature taking a 5ft step provokes an AoO, and creatures cannot use the withdraw action to treat their starting square as non-threatened." Because every other mode of movement would provoke an AoO without Thicket of Blades.


Edit: To rule otherwise would be tantamount to saying Improved Power Attack from the Frenzied Berserker does nothing, because Power Attack states that a 2h weapon only gains 2x the power attack bonus on damage.

[ranger557]

Sorry for the late reply....I work pretty late and don't get much time to get on and reply quickly =/.

Thanks for the critique over my build, i appreciate it :). I notice you guys are debating about the thicket of blades stance. I would say that if it prevents all movement...well that can go either way. In all if it prevents tumbling..thats awesome! :) but i guess it would be a DM judge call on it, if it is or not.

Now, that I am on the right path for my build...what is the best build approach? Warblade6/Crusader2/WarbladeXX or Warblade5/Fighter2/WarbladeXX?

I heard either one can go either way, because it depends on how you interpret the martial study and stance feats for the initiator level prerequisites. Also what good maneuvers would compliment a AoO/Lockdown build like this one?

[Firechanter]

Personally I prefer Warblades as Chargers, with a bit of everything else sprinkled in.
Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Valorous Weapon in combination with Pouncing Charge and Dancing/Raging Mongoose, yes also with THF. That's enough to one-round anything that's even remotely appropriate for your level.
Combat Reflexes and Stand Still for basic lockdown abilities.
Might mix in some White Raven for tactical flexibility.

The advantage is that you can remain pure Warblade without the need to acquire other Adepts' maneuvers by way of multiclassing or feats. Though personally I like to add a Shadow Teleport by feat (no prereqs except IL).