[3.5/PF] Concept - One Weapon Fighting

[Axier]

So, I've noticed that free hand fighting is kinda nerfing you, as using a one handed weapon with nothing else is in the other... I want to design a feat that allows you to TWF, with the manuver of switching your weapon between hands in order to press the attack.

The big question is whether or not this is game breaking or not? I want some opinions.

[Seerow]

Not really. You're paying another feat, in an already feat intensive style, to avoid needing to buy a second weapon. On top of that TWFing is already a relatively weak style (partially because of all the feats it requires)... so yeah, if anything this option will still end up on the weaker end of the spectrum. Not gamebreaking at all.

[Axier]

I see what you mean...


How about just adding the function to TWF? Or does that just kinda make TWF with two weapons completely pointless? I think it would end up being more for flavor than anything anyway.

[EdroGrimshell]

I see what you mean...


How about just adding the function to TWF? Or does that just kinda make TWF with two weapons completely pointless? I think it would end up being more for flavor than anything anyway.

I'd actually like to see Einhander be a completely different style. Two handing is all about power, two weapon is about speed of attack, and sword and board is about a balance of offense and defense. But einhander has never been defined for a specific style outside of subpar PrCs and classes that don't really solve the problem. In my eyes, Einhander is a style about accuracy and deceit, easy to change direction and momentum using proper applications of strength, finesse, and balance.

What I'd suggest is for a one hand style to be accurate, and allow that accuracy and finesse to apply to different things. Like parrying, ripostes, in combat feints and the like. Essentially, fast, accurate strikes that can be used for offense and defense (in the form of parries and ripostes).

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

A dervish dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) build makes one-handed fighting quite viable. It leaves you tons of feats open for utility while still being useful because you're single-ability dependent and mobile in combat. At higher levels your accuracy is really high for using critical feats (a set of feats in Pathfinder that let you stun, bleed, etc on critical hits), landing a crit roughly every fourth attack. At very high levels you can take the duelist prestige class for a large flat damage bonus and some awesome critical hit debuffs (Pathfinder duelist is waaay better than 3.5), and invest all of your money into a +5 speed weapon (assuming you're eschewing armor because it would slow you down).

[Yitzi]

I don't think it's overpowered (as long as usual TWF penalties for non-light weapons apply), but it isn't different enough from TWF. I think it might be better to use the Duelist prestige class (D&D or PF version, or a combination) for inspiration in making a set of advantages different than those of other styles.

[Cieyrin]

A dervish dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) build makes one-handed fighting quite viable. It leaves you tons of feats open for utility while still being useful because you're single-ability dependent and mobile in combat. At higher levels your accuracy is really high for using critical feats (a set of feats in Pathfinder that let you stun, bleed, etc on critical hits), landing a crit roughly every fourth attack. At very high levels you can take the duelist prestige class for a large flat damage bonus and some awesome critical hit debuffs (Pathfinder duelist is waaay better than 3.5), and invest all of your money into a +5 speed weapon (assuming you're eschewing armor because it would slow you down).

The Called Shot system in UC had a set of feats that make me think of what a Einhander should be pursuing and viable in comparison to TWFing's lots of attacks, THFing's damage spikes and S&B's Offense/Defense, though the last often goes directly into TWFing if you investing into Shield bashing at all. It fits accuracy and finesse and picking an enemy apart, along with crit feats.

Also, if you want to not be locked down on scimitars, Agile (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-Agile) will save you a feat and some skill ranks for some money, especially if you don't have proficiency with scimitars (like if you're a rogue or ninja).

[bobthe6th]

see my razor... just allow people to TWF with one weapon, still not the best damage, but now without the gold tax of 2x weapon bonus.

also, weapon styles need a much larger overhaul. SA damage is extreamly situational/powerful, and THF is insane for damage. not sure how to fix though...

[Jane_Smith]

Typically a rogue could do a one-hand only fighting style. Just specialize in feinting + sneak attack + power attack. Don't forget poisons and spells, you could go magus and/or rogue, put ranks in alchemy for poisons and you would be golden.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Typically a rogue could do a one-hand only fighting style. Just specialize in feinting + sneak attack + power attack. Don't forget poisons and spells, you could go magus and/or rogue, put ranks in alchemy for poisons and you would be golden.

Feinting is generally considered a bad idea for rogues, since flanking is more reliable. It's also considered a better single-weapon build to ignore Weapon Finesse and max out your Strength, since you don't have to pay a feat tax and you get a damage bonus. The best rogue build is generally considered to be two-weapon fighting while flanking to land as many sneak attacks as possible.

One option might be to rewrite the poorly-thought-out feat Combat Expertise. Make it give you a +1 bonus to attack and damage with one-handed weapons, and a +2 bonus with light weapons. This would help both one-handed builds and sword-and-board builds.

[Jane_Smith]

Plus side is if your using only one weapon, you can put far more enchantments on it for the same price of 2 weapons getting enchanted. Use that to your advantage and stack the damage buffs, shock, flame, frost, acid, sonic and do +5d6 rainbow damage a hit. If your one handed weapon is something like a morning star and does multiple types of damage, your set for life on that part at least. The only real concern is optimizing it via feats/class features.

Power attack, cleave, great cleave come to mind. There was also a feat on the srd (in the supplement/other companies area) for feats - there was something like Flay or something, you do +2d6 damage to enemies with full/above max hit points (temp hp counts). With this combo in mind, cleave and great cleave with a decked out one handed becomes pretty potent in the start of a fight.

[sengmeng]

Maybe you could look for inspiration from real life. The reason that fencers switched from rapier and parrying dagger to just rapier is that you could turn your body to the side, presenting a narrower target than if you face completely towards your opponent. Could be a dodge or shield bonus to AC, or something (didn't some PrC or feat give a shield bonus if you have a free hand?). I don't know if that helps too much, but that's why people did it. Of course, armor was not in vogue at the time and the rules of dueling affected the weapon choice, and it being real life, anyone could be killed by single stab if it was placed correctly. I'm not sure how to incorporate that into D&D.

[JennTora]

Don't know if it's quite the same, but kotor had a feat called dueling for a single one hand weapon. It granted +1 to AC and attack for each rank and had 3 ranks

[Yitzi]

Feinting is generally considered a bad idea for rogues, since flanking is more reliable.

Not if the enemy fights in a corner.


It's also considered a better single-weapon build to ignore Weapon Finesse and max out your Strength, since you don't have to pay a feat tax and you get a damage bonus.

But you end up with lower AC. You get a slightly better damage output, but your defense suffers.


One option might be to rewrite the poorly-thought-out feat Combat Expertise. Make it give you a +1 bonus to attack and damage with one-handed weapons, and a +2 bonus with light weapons. This would help both one-handed builds and sword-and-board builds.

And then what feat would give what Combat Expertise gives now, i.e. the ability to boost your AC?

[DiBastet]

One-handed fighting could be solved with something along the lines of allowing you to add dex to damage (besides str) if you hold one weapon in a hand and nothing in the other. It would benefit single dagger rogues and duelists, as you imagine of the style, but also the scimitar-wielding arabian-guy and other concepts.

[Waargh!]

In 4e if I am not mistake you gain a +1 damage if you hold a one-handed weapon in two hands. You can add that by the standard rules of 3.5 adding 1/2 your Strength when you do so (and same for power attack). That means that a 1d8 longsword is effectively a 1d10 so closer to a 2d6 greatsword. Make it +2 and you have the same more or less the same damage output for one-handed and two-handed weapons. Then it is just fluff if you attack with one free hand or your grab your weapon with two hands.

The above could be a feat plus something extra to compensate feat tax (you can make it a +1 attack instead of +2 damage as you can use power attack to convert it anyway). I would add a +5 to confirm critical as the something extra to reflect the added accuracy.

This is of course if you seek more balance than creating something new

[qwertyu63]

Likely not what you mean, but I can think of a reason to leave an empty hand. That being so you can use that hand for things like, to use an example from one of my more recent build, somatic components.

Back on topic, perhaps allow that style to provide a bonus (Weapon enchantment +1, perhaps) to tripping, disarming, sundering, and other such moves. And I mean both to preforming those moves, and to resisting them. To use the PF term (I think, I don't play PF), putting a bonus to your CMB and CMD.

[Ashtagon]

Way I see it (and what i want to implement for my house rules):

Two Weapon Fighting: Realistically, TWF used the second weapon for defence, not for attack. Cinematically, the second weapon allows for more attacks per round. This has a significant extra cost in that it requires two implements to be purchased/enchanted. Since the "bonus to defence" tactical role is already covered by Sword & Board (which realistically should do that far better), TWF will go for cinematic.

Two-Handed Weapon: Allows for more damage per attack.

Sword & Board: The general-purpose balance between attack and defence. Like TWF, it requires two implements to be purchased/enchanted.

Single Stick: This should grant bonuses when feinting, doing a dirty trick, disarming, or repositioning your foe (not stealing, since that one requires a free hand to attempt at all). Basically, this is the "deceptive warrior" option.

[Yitzi]

Since the "bonus to defence" tactical role is already covered by Sword & Board (which realistically should do that far better)

Actually, my own research on the matter seems to suggest that TWF is actually superior for defense against slashing weapons, but inferior to sword&board against other sorts of weapons. (It also gives you the option to bind your opponent's weapon with your primary and then use the secondary weapon to attack him while he can't defend himself as effectively.)

[EtherianBlade]

I've included a series of feats in my homebrew which grant attack and defense bonuses when using a single weapon. Related feats also give bonuses to disarm and trip, assuming the weapon is sufficient to use in that way.

Dueling: The character gains a +1 bonus to attack rolls and Defense when using a single-handed weapon such as a longsword or axe.

Improved Dueling: The character gains a further +1 bonus to attack rolls and Defense when using a single-handed weapon.

Combat Versatility (requires Dueling): The character gains a +2 bonus on all disarm and trip attempts when using a single-handed weapon capable of performing the action.

[Amechra]

Those feats look kinda weak; maybe you can make them scale a bit?

[Ashtagon]

Actually, my own research on the matter seems to suggest that TWF is actually superior for defense against slashing weapons, but inferior to sword&board against other sorts of weapons. (It also gives you the option to bind your opponent's weapon with your primary and then use the secondary weapon to attack him while he can't defend himself as effectively.)

I agree that realistic two-stick fighting should grant a bonus to defence. However, that idea fails to fulfil the expected tropes.

[Yitzi]

I agree that realistic two-stick fighting should grant a bonus to defence. However, that idea fails to fulfil the expected tropes.

So what? D&D makes tropes more often than it follows them.

[Ashtagon]

So what? D&D makes tropes more often than it follows them.

Yes, and this is a trope that D&D has made. It'd confuse players to change it now.

[Bergor Terraf]

To help with the "deceptive warrior" angle, you could go with the feint option of the bluff skill. Maybe a move instead of a standard action to feint in combat when using a one handed weapon in one hand and nothing in the other.

Then a few feats could further improve that:

Press the Advantage : If you feint in combat and beat your opponents check by 5 or more, they lose their dex bonus to AC against all your attacks that round.

Great Feint : When feinting in combat with a one handed weapon in one hand and nothing in the other, you may add your cha mod to damage.

Defencive Feint : When an opponent attacks you, you can make a bluff check(like a normal feint). If successful, you can redirect the attacks against another opponent that you both threaten. This new target loses his dex bonus to AC against this attack. This ability can only be used a number of times per day equal to your cha modifier.

[sengmeng]

Great Feint : When feinting in combat with a one handed weapon in one hand and nothing in the other, you may add your cha mod to damage.


I think that adding Cha to damage is OP unless you have to make a pun as you do it.

;)