Advice for future combat cleric build?

[Totema]

Hi all,

I'm starting in a new 3.5 campaign later today, and I've decided for once to try out a magic-using class. I thought I'd give cleric a spin, since the style of magic seems to me a little less convoluted than something like a wizard, and also because they're pretty capable in combat, which is something I'm used to.

My idea is to make a character that's something like a classic paladin, except that it is also a competent caster in addition to being a potent fighter and slayer of evil. We're starting at fifth level, so I have some options in multiclassing. What should I consider putting my levels into? I was thinking of putting three or four levels into cleric, and then switching to something such as ordained champion, fist of raziel, or radiant servant of pelor. When we start advancing, what other classes should I have a look at? Also, how should I allocate my ability scores when I begin?

That's all I can think to ask for now. Thanks very much!

[Eldariel]

Straight Cleric is quite competent, and goes up to 11 with Divine Metamagic to persist or even just quicken buffs. Ordained Champion/Fist of Raziel, or Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator are likewise perfectly competent, trading a set amount of casting for some cool non-casting abilities.

It's really down to personal preference; which of these classes resonates the most with what you want. Do you want the abilities of Ordained Champion, or do you want the ToB options of a Ruby Knight Vindicator?


If you want neither, you can just go Cleric/Whatever (Divine Oracle, Radiant Servant, Sacred Exorcist, Divine Disciple, Contemplative, Dweomerkeeper, there are tons of options) and focus on keeping stuff like Divine Power, Righteous Might, Spikes, Greater Magic Weapon, etc. up later and early just use the minimal buffs you have available and swing a lot (obviously you want Strength on this road.

[Feralventas]

Honestly, Pure Cleric makes a find Fighter/Paladin/Caster on its own. It's one of the 7 most powerful classes in the game and it shows. You can take a feat to use Wisdom as your To-Hit stat on ranged combatants if you'd like, or another one (requires good alignment) for all attacks rolls (melee and ranged). This means your Casting Stat is also your To Hit stat. Then you spend a round or two at the beginning of combat buffing yourself to have better to-hit, damage, armor, and the like. Things like Bless and Bull's Strength or Cat's Grace at lower levels, and Prayer and Divine Power at higher ones.

War domain will probably suit your needs well enough. Your second domain will probably be more focused on either your patron deity's themes, or on your prefered style of play. Magic domain makes it easy to use magic devices and get access to Wizard spells via magic items if you need them or want them (especially for ranged combat via Ray spells which you can apply your combat buffs to). Strength domain is fine if you mean to be a melee combatant. Elemental and Destruction domains can be useful when a mace or maul or sword won't suffice.

[Eldariel]

Honestly, Pure Cleric makes a find Fighter/Paladin/Caster on its own. It's one of the 7 most powerful classes in the game and it shows. You can take a feat to use Wisdom as your To-Hit stat on ranged combatants if you'd like, or another one (requires good alignment) for all attacks rolls (melee and ranged). This means your Casting Stat is also your To Hit stat. Then you spend a round or two at the beginning of combat buffing yourself to have better to-hit, damage, armor, and the like. Things like Bless and Bull's Strength or Cat's Grace at lower levels, and Prayer and Divine Power at higher ones.

War domain will probably suit your needs well enough. Your second domain will probably be more focused on either your patron deity's themes, or on your prefered style of play. Magic domain makes it easy to use magic devices and get access to Wizard spells via magic items if you need them or want them (especially for ranged combat via Ray spells which you can apply your combat buffs to). Strength domain is fine if you mean to be a melee combatant. Elemental and Destruction domains can be useful when a mace or maul or sword won't suffice.

Thing is tho, Clerics are really good at buffing their Strength (starting from Divine Power and Righteous Might to stuff like Giant Size, Consumptive Field and so forth) so it's kinda a waste to move their attack stat, especially when you can double up on Str damage with a two-hander.

If you can afford 14 Strength you'll be fine as a warrior (the more the merrier, of course, especially early on, but never forget Wisdom as you are still a spellcaster).

[Totema]

Huh - I didn't think that cleric was so awesome on its own at first. Maybe I just got distracted by all the goodies that the PrCs I mentioned get. ToB confuses the hell out of me, but I'm attempting to study it, so ruby knight vindicator might be an option later on. I guess at this point I'll just have to test drive it as-is to see what will look good to me.

Yeah, the war domain has always been a priority for me - but what else? I'd been thinking time, since their spells are pretty nifty, and Improved Initiative has always served me well in the past. Granted, I'd never played a spellcaster before, so I'm not as fluent in what the other domains can offer. Anything else to look out for?

[eggs]

I really like Wind Walker from Faiths and Pantheons. It has some tiresome prerequisites (Weapon Focus Greatsword, Track, Lightning Reflexes), but it lets you prepare Travel and Air domain spells in your non-domain slots, casts supernatural (ie. undispellable) Air Walk at will and has 10/10 BA and casting.

Ruby Knight Vindicator might need a shoutout as it and Ordained Champion are the only Cleric gish PrCs that gain enough major abilities to actually benefit despite their lost CL.

And when bringing up Fist of Raziel, Knight of the Raven from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft is comparably useful, but has the benefit of being easier to get into.

[Wise Green Bean]

Really, a lawful good cleric is already very similar to a paladin. You probably don't want to actually emulate paladin's further than that. They're sort of rubbish. Your cleric buffs can get you hitting harder than a smite evil will ever manage.
A common build is to focus on getting as many turning attempts as you can(the extra turning feat) to the exploit persistent spell metamagic feat with the divine metamagic (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-divine--56/divine-metamagic--660/) feat. Cleric buffs all day long. Persist Righteous might, divine favor, a few other goodies and you can kick ass all day long. Though honestly, this can be a bit game breaking, you might want to pass on it or use it very sparingly.
According to the cleric's handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0):
"An optimization rule of thumb is that caster levels are superior to other abilities. Caster levels with extra abilities are superior to even that. Basically, if at all possible, don't lose caster levels. If you must lose caster levels, never lose more than 3 in a 20th level build, and make sure the benefits greatly outweigh what you are losing. Clerics are unique in that you get all of your class abilities at the outset, so Prestige classing and Dipping into other classes is much more viable than in some other builds. That being said, the disclaimer about Caster Levels stands. Another important thing to note is that if you plan on using turning for more than just Divine Metamagic, make sure your prestige classes advance turning much like cleric does. Not all of them do, and it is important to note the ones that do for this purpose."
It's a pretty good resource, I generally agree with them. They list some other prestige classes that you might have a look at, I think a lot of them would compliment the paladin idea if you want to go beyond being LG(frankly I wouldn't, paladin code of conduct exists to cause arguments).

[Eldariel]

Huh - I didn't think that cleric was so awesome on its own at first. Maybe I just got distracted by all the goodies that the PrCs I mentioned get. ToB confuses the hell out of me, but I'm attempting to study it, so ruby knight vindicator might be an option later on. I guess at this point I'll just have to test drive it as-is to see what will look good to me.

Yeah, the war domain has always been a priority for me - but what else? I'd been thinking time, since their spells are pretty nifty, and Improved Initiative has always served me well in the past. Granted, I'd never played a spellcaster before, so I'm not as fluent in what the other domains can offer. Anything else to look out for?

If you want War-domain anyways, might as well go Ordained Champion. Makes it a bit easier to become awesome. Feats...Improved Initiative? Not even in Top 20. You're a Cleric, outside Core they get quite possibly the highest gainers when it comes to feats.

Divine Spell Power [Complete Divine] and Divine Metamagic [Complete Divine] make your turn attempts do awesome stuff. Extra Turning gives you a lot of extra turnings. Power Attack > Divine Might [Complete Warrior] is pretty darn nice for damage if you can swing it (requires Charisma tho, and you might not have the feats anyways). Power Attack anyways since you'll be swimming in attack bonuses. Knowledge Devotion [Complete Champion] is really good if you go Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) and thus have all Knowledges in class. Travel Devotion [Complete Champion] is really good regardless to maintain mobility while still full attacking.

You also need Metamagic for Divine Metamagic (and it's nice in general), so probably stuff like Extend Spell, Persistent Spell [Complete Arcane] and Quicken Spell somewhere along the lines. Chain Spell is also reasonable and there are some tricks with Ocular Spell [Lords of Madness] and Reach Spell [Complete Arcane] but you probably don't want to go that far.


Craft feats are very useful; Craft Rod could get you Nightsticks [Libris Mortis] to fuel your Divine Metamagic with Turn Undead uses, and metamagic rods. Craft Magic Arms & Armor and Craft Wondrous Items have obvious benefits.

Finally, you might want to peek into the Cleric Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=c43lgvid6o3n7dm4ka4qm9rvt5&topic=1238). It's a lot of information but should help you gear towards what you want to be. Remember, Cleric knows all the spells on his list so you have lots of no-cost room for experimentation.

Just don't forget to use the big buffs and you'll be golden; rest of the room should be for protection magic (Magic Circles, Spell Resistances, etc.), anti-magic (Dispels), mobility (Air Walk is a must) and control spells (Wall of Stone, etc.). And rest...well, depends on your mood.

[Totema]

I actually had no idea about casting levels. :smalleek: Glad I learned about it now instead of looking like a scrub in front of my party! Although I'm still not exactly sure what it's all about... Anyway ordained champion looks like a pretty decent option to me now, and taking a dip into prestige paladin seems like a good way to capitalize on that. I'm also noticing the sheer potential of ruby knight vindicator, but as I said earlier, I'd rather wait on that until I fully understand how the class plays.

Also: I'm not entirely sure how Divine Metamagic actually works. I'd be willing to take it if I actually understood it! CD says I take energy from a turn undead attempt or a turn, and I apply it to a metamagic feat... but what does the applied energy actually do?

[Eldariel]

I actually had no idea about casting levels. :smalleek: Glad I learned about it now instead of looking like a scrub in front of my party! Although I'm still not exactly sure what it's all about... Anyway ordained champion looks like a pretty decent option to me now, and taking a dip into prestige paladin seems like a good way to capitalize on that. I'm also noticing the sheer potential of ruby knight vindicator, but as I said earlier, I'd rather wait on that until I fully understand how the class plays.

It just means "losing levels of spellcasting class for multiclassing tends to never truly be worth it". Ordained Champion & Ruby Knight Vindicator are sorta exceptions since they get really nice stuff for losing those caster levels (basically, taking a level that does not advance your spellcasting) but it's still probably weaker than what you'd get from straight Cleric on a strict power basis (mind, it's not weaker enough as to be a bad choice; Ordained Champion is more than fine).


Also: I'm not entirely sure how Divine Metamagic actually works. I'd be willing to take it if I actually understood it! CD says I take energy from a turn undead attempt or a turn, and I apply it to a metamagic feat... but what does the applied energy actually do?

Read the rest of the feat :smalltongue: The Mechanics-part. Instead of increasing a spell's effective level when applying metamagic to it, you expend X+1 Turn Undead uses. So Quicken Spell, which makes the spell 4 effective levels higher to cast, can instead be used by paying 5 Turn Undead uses with no adjustment to the spell level.

Persistent Spell costs 7 Turn Undead uses, Extend Spell 2 and so on. Mind, when you take Divine Metamagic-feat you choose ONE Metamagic Feat to which you apply it so you can only choose ONE Metamagic Feat for which you can use this alternate casting option. So when you take Divine Metamagic, you can choose Persistent Spell and then use 7 Turn Undead uses to apply Persistent Spell to a spell; but you can't use the Turn Undead uses on any other metamagic feat without taking Divine Metamagic a second time.

[Totema]

Instead of increasing a spell's effective level when applying metamagic to it, you expend X+1 Turn Undead uses. So Quicken Spell, which makes the spell 4 effective levels higher to cast, can instead be used by paying 5 Turn Undead uses with no adjustment to the spell level.

Oh - wow! That's pretty incredible! I'm sold! Thanks, I don't know why I didn't get that at first.

[Totema]

I'm wondering if a two level dip into prestige paladin is worth the effort. I'd lose a casting level, but the extra save bonus from Divine Grace is nice (especially for Ref saves!) and the ability to heal without using up a spell slot could come in handy. The mount ability is gravy too. Anyone's thoughts?