Ardent, Overchannel, and E6

[Axier]

Lets say I have an Ardent 2 / X 4

I take Practiced Manifester, giving me a ML of 6.

I take Overchannel, allowing me to function on a ML of 7 under certain circumstances, allowing me to essentially manifest 4th level powers.

Expanded knowledge allows you to gain a power 1 level lower than the highest power you may know. Because Ardent have no asserted manifester level for maximum known, only the requirements that I am able to use the power, does this allow me to learn more 3rd level powers for feats?

[dextercorvia]

No. You can't manifest a real 4th level power, so EK won't give you a third.

If you take Ardent2 as your 6th level, you could learn a real 4th level power, and then pull off this trick.

[The Glyphstone]

Overchannel only has an effect when you're actually manifesting a power. So to use this trick, you would need to gain a new feat in the middle of manifestation, otherwise your ML would drop back to 6 immediately.

[Axier]

No. You can't manifest a real 4th level power, so EK won't give you a third.

If you take Ardent2 as your 6th level, you could learn a real 4th level power, and then pull off this trick.

This would work for what I want to do, but I still want to see if I can find a loophole.

Expanded Knowledge

Benefit: Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest...

Emphasis mine. I CAN in theory manifest a 4th level power, even if I don't know one.

For example, I can manifest a power from anothers pool of knowledge:

Manifest an Unknown Power from Another’s Powers KnownA psionic character can attempt to manifest a power from a source other than his own knowledge (usually a power stone or another willing psionic character). To do so, the character must first make contact (a process similar to addressing a power stone, requiring a Psicraft check against a DC of 15+ the highest level power in the power stone or repertorie). A psionic character can make contact with only a willing psionic character or creature (unconscious creatures are considered willing, but not psionic characters under the effects of other immobilizing conditions). Characters who can’t use power stones for any reason are also banned from attempting to manifest powers from the knowledge of other psionic characters. Mental contact requires 1 full round of physical contact, which can provoke attacks of opportunity. Once contact is achieved, the character becomes aware of all the powers stored in the power stone or all the powers the other character knows up to the highest level of power the contactor knows himself.
Next, the psionic character must choose one of the powers and make a second Psicraft check (DC 15 + the power’s level) to see if he understands it. If the power is not on his class list, he automatically fails this check.
Upon successfully making contact with another willing psionic character or creature and learning what he can of one power in particular, the character can immediately attempt to manifest that power even if he doesn’t know it (and assuming he has power points left for the day). He can attempt to manifest the power normally on his next turn, and he succeeds if he makes one additional Psicraft check (DC 15 + the power’s level). He retains the ability to manifest the selected power for only 1 round. If he doesn’t manifest the power, fails the Psicraft check, or manifests a different power, he loses his chance to manifest that power for the day.

I could, also develop a new power, in theory a 4th level power.

Independent Research: A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation.
Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power. If the check fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying.



This would lead me to believe that while I do not know a 4th level power, I CAN manifest it.


Overchannel only has an effect when you're actually manifesting a power. So to use this trick, you would need to gain a new feat in the middle of manifestation, otherwise your ML would drop back to 6 immediately.
While it only "works" while manifesting, I read it as being able to, under certain circumstances, being able to manifest 7th level powers.

I don't think circumstance is considered with most requirements.

[dextercorvia]

The problem is this:


Psionic characters and creatures manifest powers. Whether they cost power points when manifest by a psionic character, or are manifested as psi-like abilities, powers’ effects remain the same. The process of manifesting a power is akin to casting a spell, but with significant differences.
Choosing A Power

First you must choose which power to manifest. You can select any power you know, provided you are capable of manifesting powers of that level or higher. To manifest a power, you must pay power points, which count against your daily total. You can manifest the same power multiple times if you have points left to pay for it.

[The Glyphstone]

While it only "works" while manifesting, I read it as being able to, under certain circumstances, being able to manifest 7th level powers.

I don't think circumstance is considered with most requirements.

To choose a feat, you must be able to meet the prerequisites at the exact time you take the feat. If you later lose the prerequisites, there are varying rules and opinions on what happens, but you cannot take a feat without meeting the prerequisites at that moment. Otherwise people could take Epic feats at 1st level because they'll eventually be Epic-level.

[dextercorvia]

To choose a feat, you must be able to meet the prerequisites at the exact time you take the feat. If you later lose the prerequisites, there are varying rules and opinions on what happens, but you cannot take a feat without meeting the prerequisites at that moment. Otherwise people could take Epic feats at 1st level because they'll eventually be Epic-level.

But, his ML is not a prerequisite of the feat. The benefit of the feat allows him to choose a power one level lower than he could manifest while gaining the feat. At that point he still has the ability to Overchannel for a 4th level power, so long as he knows one.

[Lost in books]

I lean towards Axier's interpretation. After all in these boards we refer to RAW so EKs "Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest" is talking about power level and not specific power known. So if you get enough pp to manifest a power of X level without going over your Class level limit, and after adding practiced manifester and overchannel you end up having enough pp to manifest a higher level power, then I don't see a problem. Remember you are investing one permanent feat Practiced Manifester to be able to cast these normally unavailable powers. And expending another one to learn one power with Expanded Knowledge. In essence you get the knowledge of one power earlier, but you still have to worry about it's cost, which at your lower effective manifester level you will not have the same pp pool you should.

With great power comes great responsibility. And so even having one higher level power available to manifest can throw the CR of encounters off for your team. You must be careful with this "combo" especially if you start using (abusing?) psychic reformation. Because the DM will have to adjust encounters based upon the effective CR of the group as a whole, and if you are all level 5 characters but you are "effective" lvl 6 or 7, then you can imagine the balance issues and the difficulty of future encounters.

My opinion is that if you are able to maintain a balance with the amount and "uberness" of the powers you choose as not to overshadow your team mates or making the game more deadly than it already is, then I can't see why it should not work.

As always, even if it is within RAW or how your group interprets it, you must let the DM know where you are going with this and your "tactics" because he can tell you on the spot if something will be broken for his campaign or give you the guidelines to follow. I find this approach to be the most sensible, fair, and produces a more enjoyable game experience.

[Axier]

To choose a feat, you must be able to meet the prerequisites at the exact time you take the feat. If you later lose the prerequisites, there are varying rules and opinions on what happens, but you cannot take a feat without meeting the prerequisites at that moment. Otherwise people could take Epic feats at 1st level because they'll eventually be Epic-level.

Basically, I have the same thought, but if I take the final dip at 6th level, I CAN learn a 4th level power, although I have to overchannel it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Basically, I have the same thought, but if I take the final dip at 6th level, I CAN learn a 4th level power, although I have to overchannel it.

No, you can't. PHB p58 states that you immediately level up upon gaining enough XP to reach your next level. Overchannel only increases your manifester level for the casting time of the power you're using it for. Unless your DM gives you XP while you're manifesting a power (some extreme shenanigans that no reasonable DM would allow), you cannot include the bonus from Overchannel when determining your manifester level.

[Tvtyrant]

Besides which, depending on the E6 campaign the higher level powers may not actually exist.