Pathfinder Gunslinger class without guns?

[Kantolin]

Would the pathfinder gunslinger class still be effective with, say, bows or crossbows or the like?

If some explanations are needed, I'm tweaking things for a homebrew setting, and I don't want guns to target touch AC. I was looking at the gunslinger class to see if it still functioned without that in general, or if that would make it worthless of a class. If it still works as a class, then I'll include 'guns' that are reflavored crossbows and call it a day.

It doesn't need to be tremendously powerful after the nerf, mind you, it just needs to function. If it doesn't function without that, I'll just drop the gunslinger class entirely. Just am curious what other people think, as I've never seen an actual gunslinger class played.

Do note that I'm not saying that guns targetting touch AC is or isn't unfair. :P

[Hunter Noventa]

Gunslingers have a few problems associated with them, but most of them relate directly to guns. (Like that it would be cheaper to have some sort of contraption flinging badgers at your enemy, ammo-wise.)

If you don't like that guns hit touch AC, consider that every shot they make costs at least 1gp, depending on the firearm, so I'd cheapen bullets to reflect the loss of accuracy.

You could make guns hit normal AC, but I'd suggest you create a Gunslinger Deed that allows them to roll against touch AC if they have or spend some grit.

There's no reason the class couldn't work with crossbows or repeating crossbows really, you'd have to refluff some Deeds, and completely alter the gunslinger feature they gain at level 1, but it could work. it'd just be less dramatic.

[Ravens_cry]

Some of the gun tricks would be a little weird with crossbows, like the cauterize one and ones based off a guns loud report.

[Kantolin]

If you don't like that guns hit touch AC, consider that every shot they make costs at least 1gp, depending on the firearm, so I'd cheapen bullets to reflect the loss of accuracy.

A good suggestion - I'd definitely put bullets more in line with other things. Lately, I've been not really tracking ammunition at all, however, so that's probably not going to be too focal.


There's no reason the class couldn't work with crossbows or repeating crossbows really, you'd have to refluff some Deeds, and completely alter the gunslinger feature they gain at level 1, but it could work. it'd just be less dramatic.


Some of the gun tricks would be a little weird with crossbows, like the cauterize one and ones based off a guns loud report.

Thanks - these are helpful tips. It sounds like the class is relatively fine enough without guns-go-for-touch, so I'll just implement some reflavored crossbows as guns and go for it. I'll go over specific deeds and features to ensure that they make thematic sense with that.

If anyone else has any other input in the subject, however, I'm still listening. ^_^

(As a second reminder, I'm really not saying 'guns targetting touch AC are/aren't unfair')

[Ravens_cry]

Why not simply remove the touch and the exotic part, instead of refluffing crossbows?
Guns not doing good damage just feels wonky.

[Cieyrin]

You'd want some reworking on the deeds, definitely, though that's the only thing that really needs changing. My question is why use the Gunslinger without guns? Why not go for Ranger and archetype out spells like with Skirmisher? There's a crossbow style already in APG that works well. Seems like less work, though if you have a solid idea for where you're going with changing the Gunslinger to a Crossbowslinger, by all means continue. You should just be aware that there already exists options that may meet your needs.

[Kantolin]

Guns not doing good damage just feels wonky.

Meh, I'm not too worried about that. Thanks for the heads up, though.


My question is why use the Gunslinger without guns? Why not go for Ranger and archetype out spells like with Skirmisher?

Oh, I'm not a player, I'm the DM.

I have a homebrew race that utilizes guns - they are most typically Marksmen, the Dreamscarred Press' Psionics Expanded class. But I figured that the gunslinger class was also a giant elephant in the closet - a lot of pathfinder fans who see 'race with guns' will likely ask about it. ^_^

My fear, however, was that 'guns do not strike at touch AC' would be too much of a nerf on the gunslinger (Which is a class built around the expectation that guns would be able to aim for touch AC). From the sounds of it, this is not the case. Of course, without the perks, I don't see the need for misfires or expensive ammunition or the rest of the baggage that comes with guns - so reflavoring crossbows as guns works well enough for my purposes.

So it seems that it's okay, and gunslingers are quite acceptable even with this change. ^_^

(Most of this, however, shows that I was not as clear as I should've been with my introductory post! Sorry about that - hopefully this makes the reasons behind my questioning more understandable).

[Slipperychicken]

I don't want guns to target touch AC.

Why not? They only do so within the first range increment, where the Gunslinger is liable to get his head chopped off. And guns have awful range increments, with the early ones keeping him in Full Attack range of enemies, and even the later ones still keeping him in charge range.

The in-combat tradeoff is that if you want to swing your pathetic firearm damage at Touch AC, you also have to stand right in front of your target and risk being eviscerated by him.

[Cieyrin]

Why not? They only do so within the first range increment, where the Gunslinger is liable to get his head chopped off. And guns have awful range increments, with the early ones keeping him in Full Attack range of enemies, and even the later ones still keeping him in charge range.

The in-combat tradeoff is that if you want to swing your pathetic firearm damage at Touch AC, you also have to stand right in front of your target and risk being eviscerated by him.

The range, while slightly annoying, isn't that big a difference compared to other archers, given most combats seem to happen at 60' or shorter, with it quickly going shorter when it comes to meleers. Also remember that Gunslingers are by no means frail or easy to hit, as high Dex applies to attack, damage, AC and Reflex saves, not to mention initiative and they have d10 HD like most full BAB classes do. Throw in a set of an enchanted mithril breastplate and buckler and other defense enhancers and they can weather melee just fine. They're also one of the classes that Mobility is actually not a bad feat for, between being a prereq for Deft Shootist and using the enhanced AoO AC of moving to provoke first so that when you shoot prior to Deft Shootist, you suck up the AoO at a higher AC when you move as opposed to when you shoot.

And really, when it comes down to it, Gunslingers could probably handle firearms not targeting touch AC, as they have Full BAB and high Dex. They aren't missing any more than other archers are if they have to deal with normal AC. Touch just means you always Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim, which handles piddling damage fears just fine. Any gunslinger worth his or her salt can have that online by 4th or 5th and start really filling things with lead till they leave their mortal (or immortal) coils, especially when Gun Training kicks in at 5th for most 'slingers. Targeting touch is just what makes the hassles of dealing with non-advanced firearms work by comparison with bows, which would otherwise rule.

[Prime32]

Guns not doing good damage just feels wonky.Early guns were pretty terrible weapons. They were loud, inaccurate, and had poorer armour penetration than bows or warhammers*. The reason they picked up was, while it took years of training to master a bow, anyone could use a gun. Hence rather than having small units of elite archers, you could have an entire army of conscript gunners and win through sheer dakka. Guns were useless against plate armor, but it seldom came up because only wealthy commanders wore it in the first place.

*That's pointy hammers, not big ones; D&D calls warhammers picks.

[Kantolin]

Why not? They only do so within the first range increment, where the Gunslinger is liable to get his head chopped off.

Oh, I wasn't saying it was a terribly big deal for mechanical reasons. It's really thematics more than anything else.


And really, when it comes down to it, Gunslingers could probably handle firearms not targeting touch AC, as they have Full BAB and high Dex.

That's what I was hoping and figuring. ^_^ And from teh sounds of it, most of their deeds transfer pretty well with or without touch ACing.


Early guns were pretty terrible weapons.

I think that's a major part of why I don't like the thematics of well... uh, I suppose 'popular opinion of guns in games'. :P I mean, every elf is capable of using a bow, so it's quite reasonable that they would have focused on better and better bows rather than guns in a setting with a ton of elves - the 'it's easy to point and shoot' advantage goes away. 'sides, it's fantasy, so advancement of weaponry doesn't need to work the way it did in real life.

But I digress. Thank you for these very helpful points - regardless of odd else, it's good to know what other people on both sides of the debate think.