Bane of Commoners [help]

[toapat]

Ok, so the first thing to be warned about: This build requires that you obtain permission to use a Housecat that recieved an Intensified Awakening spell.


The build:

Mouskers, Lord Magus:
Starting Attributes: Str: 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 36, Wis 12, Cha 13

Cat 2: Weapon Finesse
Wizard 1: Precocious Apprentice*, Flaw, Flaw
Wizard 2: +1 Int
Archivist 1:
Archivist 2: Alternate Spell source
Mystic Theurge 1:
Mystic Theurge 2: +1 int
Mystic Theurge 3: Practiced Spellcaster (Mystic Theurge)**
Mystic Theurge 4:
Mystic Theurge 5:
Mystic Theurge 6: Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Int to Hp), +1 int
Mystic Theurge 7:
Mystic Theurge 8:
Mystic Theurge 9: Keen Intellect (Int to Will)
Mystic Theurge 10: +1 int
Legacy Champion 1:
Legacy Champion 2: Feat
Legacy Champion 3:
Legacy Champion 4: +1 int
Legacy Champion 5: Epic Feat
Legacy Champion 6:


*Neither RHD of the Awakened Commonerslayer count as levels, im assuming this lets us take Precocious Apprentice so we can get our early entry pre-requisites.
**Mystic Theurge is a spellcasting class, and Practiced spellcaster does not specify it has to target a base spellcasting progression, letting us target our gestalt caster, instead of having to take it for both

Magic Items: Circlet of Intelligence +6, +5 Int tome, Cloak of Flight, Hand of the Mage, Handy Haversack

so, sugestions as to what his feats should be?

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not absolutely certain, but I don't think you can use practiced spellcaster like that.

How does mouskers here carry his spell/prayer book? a lack of posable thumbs is quite a handicap.

Eschew materials seems like an obvious need, unless you're a cat with a bag hanging from his neck. Or is this a puss'n'boots situation?

[toapat]

I'm not absolutely certain, but I don't think you can use practiced spellcaster like that.

How does mouskers here carry his spell/prayer book? a lack of posable thumbs is quite a handicap.

Eschew materials seems like an obvious need, unless you're a cat with a bag hanging from his neck. Or is this a puss'n'boots situation?

1: Nothing says you specifically cant
2: Handy Haversack and Hand of the mage, ill add those to the items list

[legomaster00156]

1: Nothing says you specifically cant
2: Handy Haversack and Hand of the mage, ill add those to the items list
"There's no rule against it" never, ever means that it is allowed. The game would be even MORE ridiculous if it did.

[Kelb_Panthera]

1: Nothing says you specifically cant
2: Handy Haversack and Hand of the mage, ill add those to the items list

That's not the strongest argument. In fact its generally the least effective argument for anything.

I'm not saying that I'm 100% certain that it can't be read like that, but I highly doubt it. It depends on how you define "spellcasting class" and if the +1 to X casting PrC's are any kind of precedent on the matter, theurge and any other +1 to existing class PrC's are right out.

I'm not going to argue the point any further than this, but I'd bet money someone else will before too long.

[Tvtyrant]

I would make it a psionic character, personally. No need to worry about thumbs, and you don't have a book to cast out of (and the psionic cat is actually something of a trope).

I would allow a perpetual mage hand item count, personally, but it is in no way RAW.

[herrhauptmann]

I would make it a psionic character, personally. No need to worry about thumbs, and you don't have a book to cast out of (and the psionic cat is actually something of a trope).

I would allow a perpetual mage hand item count, personally, but it is in no way RAW.

Psionic cat is a trope? That's a new one to me.

Also:
1)Haversack still weighs 5lbs (or whatever), even if sized for an 8lb cat. Not that it matters, I can't see a cat being able to open/close/don a backpack on its own.
2)Use the correct (newer) version of spellcasting prodigy. PGtF, not the FRCS version. Much less desirable because it's not nearly as broken.
3)You can't take it at level 9, not when the feat says it must be taken at first level.
I could see an argument for a warrior that multiclasses and suddenly discovers that they're a prodigy, but not if they take prodigy after 3 levels of wizard. It'd ahve to be the same level they start taking their casting class.
4)I'd say you couldn't take Prodigy for MT, for similar reasons to why you can't pick up a level in sorcerer after MT-1, and shift into Ultimate Magus, advancing MT and Sorcerer.
MT doesn't have its own spellcasting progression.

[Twilightwyrm]

I'm still somewhat iffy on how everyone seems to be under the impression that house cats are the bane of commoners everywhere. If we assume your average commoner has 4-5 hp, and a house cat will only ever deal 1 damage w/o a crit, your average commoner is going to be more than capable of taking a cat down in one hit, verses 4-5 for the cat. So what gives?

[toapat]

That's not the strongest argument. In fact its generally the least effective argument for anything.

I'm not saying that I'm 100% certain that it can't be read like that, but I highly doubt it. It depends on how you define "spellcasting class" and if the +1 to X casting PrC's are any kind of precedent on the matter, theurge and any other +1 to existing class PrC's are right out.

I'm not going to argue the point any further than this, but I'd bet money someone else will before too long.

too bad Wizards hasnt (as far as i know) errata'd it to be a little more specific in definition of Spellcasting class here. Id agree that if you have say, Cleric/Prestiege Paladin, you cant declare Prestiege paladin as your Spellcasting class


I would allow a perpetual mage hand item count, personally, but it is in no way RAW.

Hand of the Mage, SRD necklace of At Will magehand.


Psionic cat is a trope? That's a new one to me.

Also:
1)Haversack still weighs 5lbs (or whatever), even if sized for an 8lb cat. Not that it matters, I can't see a cat being able to open/close/don a backpack on its own.
2)Use the correct (newer) version of spellcasting prodigy. PGtF, not the FRCS version. Much less desirable because it's not nearly as broken.
3)You can't take it at level 9, not when the feat says it must be taken at first level.
I could see an argument for a warrior that multiclasses and suddenly discovers that they're a prodigy, but not if they take prodigy after 3 levels of wizard. It'd ahve to be the same level they start taking their casting class.
4)I'd say you couldn't take Prodigy for MT, for similar reasons to why you can't pick up a level in sorcerer after MT-1, and shift into Ultimate Magus, advancing MT and Sorcerer.
MT doesn't have its own spellcasting progression.

1: it is still the haversack
2: Not using that feat
3: Hes a lvl 1 character when he gains that lvl of wizard, RAW, Awaken doesnt add an LA, which is why he is an Awakened Housecat, because Awaken uses a roll of 3d6 for int, Intensify makes that 6d6 maximized.
4: you can use the Precocious apprentice trick to qualify. Ultimate magus specifies Arcane casting class. Mystic Theurge is an Arcane Divine casting class.


I'm still somewhat iffy on how everyone seems to be under the impression that house cats are the bane of commoners everywhere. If we assume your average commoner has 4-5 hp, and a house cat will only ever deal 1 damage w/o a crit, your average commoner is going to be more than capable of taking a cat down in one hit, verses 4-5 for the cat. So what gives?

because of these conditions:

A: the commoner is proficient with one simple weapon
B: the commoner has NPC WBL
C: the commoner has bad BAB and saves, as well as normal Array
D: the cat has 14 AC and innitive advantage, as well as all good saves
E: the cat has 2 HP vs a commoners 4
F: the cat has a +4 attack bonus and 3 attacks in a round

[TuggyNE]

I have to wonder, why go to all this trouble to be a commoner bane? :smalltongue:


A: the commoner is proficient with one simple weapon
B: the commoner has NPC WBL
C: the commoner has bad BAB and saves, as well as normal Array
D: the cat has 14 AC and innitive advantage, as well as all good saves
E: the cat has 2 HP vs a commoners 4
F: the cat has a +4 attack bonus and 3 attacks in a round

Struck out the irrelevant considerations. The result is +4/+4/-1 for 1 point of damage (even on crits) against AC 10 vs. +0 for "enough" damage against AC 14. (Nearly all simple weapons have at least a 50% chance of taking the cat to 0 HP or below in one hit.) Note further that cats do not have Pounce. Considering all this, it's almost an even fight, which is bad enough; if the commoner can stay out of full attack range and snipe with a sling or light crossbow, the odds favor him.

Also, Handle Animal. :smalltongue:

[Invader]

Thats like saying there's no specific rule that states fighters can't shoot laser beams out their eyes and WotC hasn't errata'd it, so WOOHOO LASERS FOR EVERYONE!!

[toapat]

Thats like saying there's no specific rule that states fighters can't shoot laser beams out their eyes and WotC hasn't errata'd it, so WOOHOO LASERS FOR EVERYONE!!

except where in the metamagic for that specifically says you can prepare Eyebeams is a metamagic

[Invader]

except where in the metamagic for that specifically says you can prepare Eyebeams is a metamagic

Lasers are different that eye beams, if they were the same the rules would say so... :smallamused:

[toapat]

Lasers are different that eye beams, if they were the same the rules would say so... :smallamused:

you can prepare searing ray as eyebeams. you can prepare most spells as eyebeams. you specifically said that the game didnt have rules for shooting people with lasers, it does.


I have to wonder, why go to all this trouble to be a commoner bane? :smalltongue:

hes a housecat, its a joke on the fact that the standard CR 1 housecat encounter (2-5 cats) will typically ruin a commoner

[Arcanist]

except where in the metamagic for that specifically says you can prepare Eyebeams is a metamagic

Lets use a better example (as Faceroll would put it).

"The PHB doesn't say that Fighters get disintegrate at will at CL20 as a Free action at level one, so they must get it."

[Invader]

you can prepare searing ray as eyebeams. you can prepare most spells as eyebeams. you specifically said that the game didnt have rules for shooting people with lasers, it does.



hes a housecat, its a joke on the fact that the standard CR 1 housecat encounter (2-5 cats) will typically ruin a commoner

I also said lasers and beams aren't the same thing and they're not.

[toapat]

Lets use a better example (as Faceroll would put it).

"The PHB doesn't say that Fighters get disintegrate at will at CL20 as a Free action at level one, so they must get it."

Where specifically does it define the term spellcasting class?

the problem is, the examples in Practiced spellcaster do not use Mystic Theurge, Arcane Hierophant, or ultimate magus, so without a hard definition of what it means by spellcasting class, i take it to intend to have ment that "This feat can only apply to classes which grant their own casting progression" as opposed to "This feat can target any class which grants spellcasting progression"

[Coidzor]

Dat collar of perpetual attendance. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c)

[Acanous]

In the Practiced Spellcaster Scenerio;

Mystic Theurge is not a spellcasting class. There is no "Mystic Theurge" spell list. It advances both your prior spellcasting classes (IE Wizard/Archivist). You need to take Practiced Spellcaster twice. Once for Wizard, again for Archivist.

Or you could just use the feats on better things. Seriously, you're epic level, you really don't need the extra caster levels.

[toapat]

In the Practiced Spellcaster Scenerio;

Mystic Theurge is not a spellcasting class. There is no "Mystic Theurge" spell list. It advances both your prior spellcasting classes (IE Wizard/Archivist). You need to take Practiced Spellcaster twice. Once for Wizard, again for Archivist.

Or you could just use the feats on better things. Seriously, you're epic level, you really don't need the extra caster levels.

1: I acknowledge this, and that is what they meant, find me RAW that confirms this, otherwise the cheddar remains. besides, this is a cat with a 36 base int, this is the least pungent cheddar in the build anyway
2: DCFS is given typically more flexibility then it actually has. Mouskers only has 1 epic slot, so he can only have 1 epic feat at any one given time.

[Waddacku]

Unless the Commoner is a PC it doesn't get full HD at first level. So 2 or 3 plus whatever Con bonus they might have (likely none). Furthermore, the cat has very good odds for sneaking up on the Commoner and not just initiating combat within melee range and getting a surprise round, but also probably winning initiative for a full attack on that.

And even if it can't sneak and starts at range it has a solid chance of winning in a straight up fight.

[Kelb_Panthera]

1: I acknowledge this, and that is what they meant, find me RAW that confirms this, otherwise the cheddar remains. besides, this is a cat with a 36 base int, this is the least pungent cheddar in the build anyway
2: DCFS is given typically more flexibility then it actually has. Mouskers only has 1 epic slot, so he can only have 1 epic feat at any one given time.

And that feat is epic spellcasting, which makes pretty much everything leading up to it irrelevant.

:biggrin:

[toapat]

And that feat is epic spellcasting, which makes pretty much everything leading up to it irrelevant.

:biggrin:

1 TINY problem there:
Mouskers only is a 16th level Wizard/Archivist at lvl 19. i cant move the Archivist 2 level to lvl 20 so that he qualifies early for epic spellcasting (FU Cat Hitdice)

[Slipperychicken]

How does mouskers here carry his spell/prayer book? a lack of posable thumbs is quite a handicap.

Eidetic Spellcaster variant. No more spellbook. Smoke weed strange herbs catnip to learn spells. You are a magic pothead kitten.

Feats
Obtain Familiar, get a Cat familiar.
Keen Intellect (Int to Will saves and some WIS-based skills like Sense Motive and Spot)
Improved Initative


Skills
Perform (Keyboard Instruments)
Perform (Cute)
Handle Humanoid
ALL THE KNOWLEDGES
Speak Language (ALL THE LANGUAGES)

You have like 17 skills to max, so you should be good with Knowledge (All 10 of them), Speak Language, Spellcraft, Handle Humanoid, Concentration, Decipher Script, Use Magic Device, Sense Motive.

[nedz]

In the Practiced Spellcaster Scenerio;

...

Or you could just use the feats on better things. Seriously, you're epic level, you really don't need the extra caster levels.

The first rule of CharOp would like to have a word: Never sacrifice caster level.


Psionic cat is a trope? That's a new one to me.

What about a Thrallherd ?
The idea of a cat having a large hoard of doting humans does seem quite cute.

[legomaster00156]

Smoke weed strange herbs catnip to learn spells. You are a magic pothead kitten.
I just want permission to add this to my signature.

[Slipperychicken]

I just want permission to add this to my signature.

Permission granted :smallbiggrin:

[toapat]

well, this is irritating, i learned that Archivist gets bonus feats from Wisdom.

[Slipperychicken]

well, this is irritating, i learned that Archivist gets bonus feats from Wisdom.

???:smallconfused:

They get bonus feats, but it has nothing to do with Wisdom.

They do get bonus spells from Wisdom (the rest of it is Int based, I think the Wisdom bit is a typo), though. Which is confusing to no end. You're not going to have problems with spells/day though, with Int 36 Wizard on the other side, plus your base allotment.

I would be very impressed if Mr Snuggles here managed to burn through his entire daily allotment of spells.


Another feat: Uncanny Forethought (and it's prerequisite, Spell Mastery). Your only limitation ("I didn't prepare that spell today") is now gone for good, with 13+ spontaneous castings/day.

[Amechra]

Faerie Mysteries Initiate required you to be an Elf, the last time I checked...

Plus, Awakened Animals don't have LA. So they are literally unplayable.

Additionally, Practiced Spellcaster specifies a spellcasting class. A class is only a spellcasting class if it grants spellcasting, which Mystic Theurge only progresses.

So it don't work like that.

[toapat]

Faerie Mysteries Initiate required you to be an Elf, the last time I checked...

Plus, Awakened Animals don't have LA. So they are literally unplayable.

Additionally, Practiced Spellcaster specifies a spellcasting class. A class is only a spellcasting class if it grants spellcasting, which Mystic Theurge only progresses.

So it don't work like that.

1: im handwaving that by saying the cat was awakened by an elf druid who wanted to join the initiate but needed someone to partner the feat with.

2: Awakened doesnt change the LA of animals, it doesnt make it No LA

3: I already said that yes, Practiced spellcaster shouldnt be able to do that, but i didnt see anyone link to a RAW definition of Spellcasting class.

[Slipperychicken]

Faerie Mysteries Initiate required you to be an Elf, the last time I checked...


It requires either a region or Elf. The former requirement is usually handwaved, but YMMV.


EDIT: Getting a member of the Fairie Mysteries to "engage in an exuberant sensual act" with a housecat is kind of weird no matter how you slice it. Not to mention admitting a cat in the first place. But it's definitely not the weirdest thing in D&D by a longshot.

[Sith_Happens]

When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.

You cannot take Practiced Spellcaster(Mystic Theurge) because you don't have a Mystic Theurge caster level for it to boost. You have a Wizard caster level and an Archivist caster level, each of which the Mystic Theurge class levels simply add to.

[toapat]

EDIT: Getting a member of the Fairie Mysteries to "engage in an exuberant sensual act" with a housecat is kind of weird no matter how you slice it. Not to mention admitting a cat in the first place. But it's definitely not the weirdest thing in D&D by a longshot.

lets say the cat dumped the elf for another cat ASAP


You cannot take Practiced Spellcaster(Mystic Theurge) because you don't have a Mystic Theurge caster level for it to boost. You have a Wizard caster level and an Archivist caster level, each of which the Mystic Theurge class levels simply add to.

The problem is not in that, yes, that makes perfect sense, but the problem is the definition of Spellcasting class is pretty much actually integral to the argument, and while yes, MT doesnt itself have any casting, it does advance 2 tracks of casting in order to make a more powerful class. Without an official definition of Spellcasting class, the argument on yourside is more sensical, but mine is a little more solid in that no evidence actually exists to disprove it.

[Sith_Happens]

The problem is not in that, yes, that makes perfect sense, but the problem is the definition of Spellcasting class is pretty much actually integral to the argument, and while yes, MT doesnt itself have any casting, it does advance 2 tracks of casting in order to make a more powerful class. Without an official definition of Spellcasting class, the argument on yourside is more sensical, but mine is a little more solid in that no evidence actually exists to disprove it.


Benefit: Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4.

Even if you could take Practiced Spellcaster(Mystic Theurge), it would not actually do anything, because you do not have a Mystic Theurge caster level. It would not boost the caster level of either of the classes being advanced by Mystic Theurge, because it is specifically Mystic Theurge class levels that add to the base classes' casting.

[nedz]

+1 on the You must take Practiced Spellcaster twice arguement I'm afraid. It would hardly break your build.

[toapat]

Even if you could take Practiced Spellcaster(Mystic Theurge), it would not actually do anything, because you do not have a Mystic Theurge caster level. It would not boost the caster level of either of the classes being advanced by Mystic Theurge, because it is specifically Mystic Theurge class levels that add to the base classes' casting.


+1 on the You must take Practiced Spellcaster twice arguement I'm afraid. It would hardly break your build.

My point is that yes, i understand all of that, but, the only thing that can actually prove my point wrong, is simply the fact that, ifThere is a written definition of "Spellcasting class" and it says specifically that a spellcasting class grants a base progression.

the problem is, if it required specifically base spellcasting classes, then assassin, most of the paladin PRCs, Ur-priest and Divine Champion, and other priestiege classes that grant their own spellcasting progression would not be able to take practiced spellcaster. the Mystic theurge is not itself a primary source of spellcasting progression, but because the most precise definition of "Spellcasting class" we have is that it progresses caster level. the Mystic theurge does progress casting level, and so it is a valid target of practiced spellcaster.

[only1doug]

My point is that yes, i understand all of that, but, the only thing that can actually prove my point wrong, is simply the fact that, ifThere is a written definition of "Spellcasting class" and it says specifically that a spellcasting class grants a base progression.

the problem is, if it required specifically base spellcasting classes, then assassin, most of the paladin PRCs, Ur-priest and Divine Champion, and other priestiege classes that grant their own spellcasting progression would not be able to take practiced spellcaster. the Mystic theurge is not itself a primary source of spellcasting progression, but because the most precise definition of "Spellcasting class" we have is that it progresses caster level. the Mystic theurge does progress casting level, and so it is a valid target of practiced spellcaster.




Mystic Theurge wrote (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.htm):

Spells per Day
When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.

O.K. the Mystic Theurge section on spells / day seems to agree with your supposition that it is a Spellcasting class. Congratulations you can gain +4 caster level in Mystic Theurge.

Mystic Theurge has no intrinsic spellcasting, but it specifically increases the spellcasting of other arcane and divine classes. However it does not increase the casting by caster level of mystic theurge, just by class level.

Conclusion: You can gain +4 caster level in mystic theurge but it won't add to either your divine or arcane casting classes, it is a wasted feat.

[Twilightwyrm]

I have to wonder, why go to all this trouble to be a commoner bane? :smalltongue:



Struck out the irrelevant considerations. The result is +4/+4/-1 for 1 point of damage (even on crits) against AC 10 vs. +0 for "enough" damage against AC 14. (Nearly all simple weapons have at least a 50% chance of taking the cat to 0 HP or below in one hit.) Note further that cats do not have Pounce. Considering all this, it's almost an even fight, which is bad enough; if the commoner can stay out of full attack range and snipe with a sling or light crossbow, the odds favor him.

Also, Handle Animal. :smalltongue:

Not to overly harp on the subject, but doesn't this forget the whole cat needing to move into the commoner's space thing?

[TuggyNE]

Not to overly harp on the subject, but doesn't this forget the whole cat needing to move into the commoner's space thing?

Hmm, yes. So the commoner gets an extra attack per round as an AoO (with a melee weapon, or non-lethal unarmed), just by moving away.

[Urpriest]

Not to overly harp on the subject, but doesn't this forget the whole cat needing to move into the commoner's space thing?

The cat has fairly high Hide and Move Silently, while the Commoner doesn't really have skill points to spare for Spot or Listen. In most versions of this, the cat hides, then waits until the Commoner enters its space before making a full attack.

[toapat]

The cat has fairly high Hide and Move Silently, while the Commoner doesn't really have skill points to spare for Spot or Listen. In most versions of this, the cat hides, then waits until the Commoner enters its space before making a full attack.

besides that, the thread name was in refference to the common idea that a Cat>lvl 1 Commoner. A cat with Wizard+Artificer lvl 17 each would be able to obliterate hundreds of commoners with ease.

[daemonaetea]

the problem is, if it required specifically base spellcasting classes, then assassin, most of the paladin PRCs, Ur-priest and Divine Champion, and other priestiege classes that grant their own spellcasting progression would not be able to take practiced spellcaster. the Mystic theurge is not itself a primary source of spellcasting progression, but because the most precise definition of "Spellcasting class" we have is that it progresses caster level. the Mystic theurge does progress casting level, and so it is a valid target of practiced spellcaster.

The Assassin gains it's own spellcasting. Thus, when you take Practiced Spellcaster for it, you have an actual caster level to increase. The Ur-priest is the same, so are other PRCs of that type. They specifically give casting, a caster level, spells known, and the rest of those things.

Compare it to something like, say, Eldritch Knight. It also advances spellcasting, like the Mystic Theurge, rather than granting new casting. Would it make any sense to take Practiced Spellcaster (Eldritch Knight)? No, because the Eldritch Knight is again only increasing whatever you entered it with.

In other words, as an Assassin, you have an Assassin caster level, thus something to actually increase. As a Mystic Theurge, you have a (Arcane) caster level and a (Divine) caster level, not both of those plus a Mystic Theurge caster level. It just so happens that, as a class feature, Mystic Theurge causes your (Arcane) and (Divine) caster levels to increase.

Strictly by the rules, I think you actually can take Practiced Spellcaster for Mystic Theurge... I just don't think it would actually have any effect.

[TuggyNE]

besides that, the thread name was in refference to the common idea that a Cat>lvl 1 Commoner. A cat with Wizard+Artificer lvl 17 each would be able to obliterate hundreds of commoners with ease.

Yes, but the point I was making was that a) cats aren't actually more dangerous than level 1 commoners, and may be less dangerous (though they're still under-CRed) and b) the cat baseline contributes nothing to the Wizard+Artificer powerhouse, except being a handy target for Intensified awaken.


Joke-ruiner awaaayyyy!

[toapat]

Yes, but the point I was making was that a) cats aren't actually more dangerous than level 1 commoners, and may be less dangerous (though they're still under-CRed) and b) the cat baseline contributes nothing to the Wizard+Artificer powerhouse, except being a handy target for Intensified awaken.


Joke-ruiner awaaayyyy!

I actually forgot why i chose a cat for the base creature. A Mouse, Hampster, or Chimpmunk Fruit bat would be vastly superior, because if the Mouse Cart is translated into 3.5 rules, it is a magic item that gives a +240-600 strength Enhancement bonus to tiny mammals (+1-+4 Mousecart), combined with the 36 base int, that mouse will research Large Hadron Collision. Using throwing weapons