undead and mental ability damage

[Venger]

when you hit a living creature's mental stats to 0, they go unconscious. I don't think that's true of undead, so, what happens if you get an undead's int/wis/cha to 0?

[Keld Denar]

Assuming it has the relevant ability score (not mindless vs int damage), it would be rendered helpless just the same as any other creature. Nothing in the undead type description states that they are immune to being made helpless. They would become deanimated for at let 24 hours for the ability damage to heal. It should heal on ours own at normal rate, since again, nothing written stops it (that I know of).

Even if they are, you still can't CDG them, due to their immunity to critical hits.

[Venger]

huh. looks like that's the case. unconscious describes the character as being helpless, so that answers that. thanks.

[TuggyNE]

Assuming it has the relevant ability score (not mindless vs int damage), it would be rendered helpless just the same as any other creature. Nothing in the undead type description states that they are immune to being made helpless. They would become deanimated for at let 24 hours for the ability damage to heal. It should heal on ours own at normal rate, since again, nothing written stops it (that I know of).

An undead "cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType), which I believe includes healing from ability damage. If you can get non-mind-affecting Cha/Wis damage, bam, that's one perma-frozen zombie/skeleton/what-have-you.

[Slipperychicken]

An undead "cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType), which I believe includes healing from ability damage. If you can get non-mind-affecting Cha/Wis damage, bam, that's one perma-frozen zombie/skeleton/what-have-you.

Stuff the body in your bag of holding, and now there's really no hope for the poor guy to be resurrected (short of Wish/Miracle-level magic, of course). One notch below soul-destruction.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Int 0 and no intelligence aren't the same thing. The undead in question will regain one point of int in one day's time. Intelligent undead -do- heal both ability damage and hp damage at the normal rate.

[TuggyNE]

Int 0 and no intelligence aren't the same thing. The undead in question will regain one point of int in one day's time. Intelligent undead -do- heal both ability damage and hp damage at the normal rate.

Uhhhhh. Zombies (&c) literally have no intelligence score. Therefore, it's impossible for it to regain a point of Int that it never had to start with, and it's also impossible for it to regain any other ability score damage on its own. As previously stated, then, Wis or Cha damage landed on a mindless undead stays forever, and acts like drain.

Of course, if you're targeting a non-mindless undead, that doesn't work, which is why my examples were mindless.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Whoops, missed the bit about you actually targetting mindless undead with it. :smallredface:

But mindless undead are such pushovers, why bother? :smallconfused:

[sreservoir]

Constitution

Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).

note that undead are normally immune to all ability damage and drain, and the immunity conferred by the undead type against damage to physical ability scores is redundant (and would only come into play in the ... rather unusual, case that it is granted a constitution score without removing the undead type; this is not a thing that happens, to my knowledge).

[Kelb_Panthera]

note that undead are normally immune to all ability damage and drain, and the immunity conferred by the undead type against damage to physical ability scores is redundant (and would only come into play in the ... rather unusual, case that it is granted a constitution score without removing the undead type; this is not a thing that happens, to my knowledge).

One could argue that undead being specifically immune to only physical ability damage trumps con - being generally immune to all ability damage.

That'd just be conjecture though, since the two don't conflict directly.

[Venger]

note that undead are normally immune to all ability damage and drain, and the immunity conferred by the undead type against damage to physical ability scores is redundant (and would only come into play in the ... rather unusual, case that it is granted a constitution score without removing the undead type; this is not a thing that happens, to my knowledge).

wild shape grants a con score but does not change type (being keyed off alternate form). since you don't lose the undead type, your physical abilities still can't be hurt.

wasn't the "immune to physical ability damage only" changed in the update to 3.5? and they just forgot to change it under the nonabilities section?

[TuggyNE]

But mindless undead are such pushovers, why bother? :smallconfused:

I dunno, it was just a random thought. Of course, if you have non-mind-affecting Wis/Cha damage, it's also great for all kinds of other things; the special interaction with mindless undead is just an amusing bonus.


wasn't the "immune to physical ability damage only" changed in the update to 3.5? and they just forgot to change it under the nonabilities section?

If so, that would be a helpful resolution to the conflict of RAW. I'm not certain which should control otherwise, either RAW-wise or by RACSD.

[Venger]

I dunno, it was just a random thought. Of course, if you have non-mind-affecting Wis/Cha damage, it's also great for all kinds of other things; the special interaction with mindless undead is just an amusing bonus.



If so, that would be a helpful resolution to the conflict of RAW. I'm not certain which should control otherwise, either RAW-wise or by RACSD.

what other sources of non mind-affecting wis/cha damage exist besides maiming strike via penetrating strike?

[TuggyNE]

what other sources of non mind-affecting wis/cha damage exist besides maiming strike via penetrating strike?

I have no idea. I do know it's not very common, though.

[Glimbur]

note that undead are normally immune to all ability damage and drain, and the immunity conferred by the undead type against damage to physical ability scores is redundant (and would only come into play in the ... rather unusual, case that it is granted a constitution score without removing the undead type; this is not a thing that happens, to my knowledge).

There's also Spark of Life in, I believe, spell compendium. I'm far too lazy to read the actual rules to it, but in general it removes many undead immunities.

[Venger]

There's also Spark of Life in, I believe, spell compendium. I'm far too lazy to read the actual rules to it, but in general it removes many undead immunities.

true, but it neither grants a con score nor removes the undead type. it does render str and dex vulnerable to damage though.

[nyjastul69]

There's also Spark of Life in, I believe, spell compendium. I'm far too lazy to read the actual rules to it, but in general it removes many undead immunities.

Yes it's in the SC as a cleric3/druid4 spell. It's also in Libris Mortis as a cleric7/druid8 spell. It basically strips away the physical immunities of undead. FWIW there's a feat in LM, Requiem, that allows bardic music to affect undead. Being immune to mind influencing effects makes them immune to most BM effects normally.

Edit: SoL makes undead subject to damage from critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, fatigue, exhaustion, and damage to physical ability scores. They still lack a con score so they are not subject to con damage.