advice on totemist/spymaster

[Venger]

I've been trying to wrangle a build out of spymaster due to its very cool deep cover ability, which I've been dying to use in a game for years. I've finally gotten the opportunity, but am running into some doubts.

having read shneeky's excellent handbook on incarnum in combination with what I know about totemists, I am working with the understanding that I will be making pretty much all my attacks with natural weapons (probably totem-bound girallon arms), which do not get iteratives, but are a static number of attacks regardless of my BA, so as long as my str is okay, and I've got enough essentia handy to invest in my girallon arms (or whatever) then I'm ok as far as hitting and number of attacks go.

nonetheless, I was looking at my tentative build, and I was concerned my BA was too low to be able to contribute meaningfully to combat.

rolewise, there is a factotum with a mindbender dip at 5 and mindsight in the party who will likely pull much of the party face duty, one player who's rolling a paladin-type (no specifics yet) and one up in the air. my role will largely be skills and stealth/infiltration/spying.

that said, combat's unavoidable in this game, and I don't want to be a liability to myself or others. here's what I'd been thinking thus far:

changeling rogue 1 (feat)
1 totemist 1
2 totemist 2 (darkstalker)
3 rogue 2
5 rogue 3 (penetrating strike)
6 umbral disciple 1 (open least chakra (hands), for sphinx claws' pounce)
7 umbral disciple 2
8 umbral disciple 3
9 spymaster 1 (sf:bluff, for spymaster)
10 spymaster 2
11 exemplar 1
12 spymaster 3 (feat)
13 spymaster 4
14 spymaster 5
15 spymaster 6 (sf: diplo, for charlatan)
16 spymaster 7
17 (maybe) charlatan 1 (from ravenloft)
18 uncanny trickster 1 (feat)
19 uncanny trickster 2
20 uncanny trickster 3

as you can see, my ba is only 12 by the end, and while this is my first time playing a meldshaper, so I'm not sure what the norm is, it seems sort of low to me. am I wrong? was my earlier assessment correct, or not? if not, what should I try to do differently?

my basic thinking is to make use of social intuition when I can, enjoy umbral disciple's HIPS beefed up with darkstalker and the bonus essentia it gives, be untouchable defensively with spymaster's deep cover, take a ton of skill masteries that aren't covered by social intuition with my exemplar level, use social intuition on the bluffs/diplos afforded by charlatan's charmer ability to make the DCs more difficult for victims to resist, and progress totemist's meldshaping with uncanny trickster.

I'll have a good amount of essentia to invest in my HIPS ability to keep my miss chance good and high with a decent amount left over to put into melds. do I have enough? should I take bonus essentia for 2 more points?

how do you think this combo will work out in play? what suggestions for feats do you have? any experience playing totemists?

[Malroth]

Whats Umbral desciple giving you? if you drop it for 1 more rogue level and 2 more totemimist levels your Bab will wind up much healthier. also ask if you can calculate your BAB using the fractional variant in Unearthed Arcana.

[Venger]

Whats Umbral desciple giving you? if you drop it for 1 more rogue level and 2 more totemimist levels your Bab will wind up much healthier. also ask if you can calculate your BAB using the fractional variant in Unearthed Arcana.

while what you're saying is true, umbral disciple gives me the "embrace of shadow" ability, which gives 10% concealment/essentia point and gives hide in plain sight (hips) when it's at 20%+. that's a fine ability, and getting it at level 8 is pretty cool. the only other ways I'd seen to get hips (ninja spy 4, shadowdancer, assassin, dark template, etc) require too much investment for my return.

fraction ba is just pretend all your classes are one long one, right? so since everything in the list is a 3/4, I end up with a 15?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't really see how Totemist adds to this build, to be honest. I mean yea, sure, you get four natural attacks, but unless you've got some damage stacking going on, they're going to be four very weak attacks. Sure, you've got a bit of sneak attack damage, but not a lot, since Spymaster is less about damage and more about getting in and out undetected, or at least unsuspected.

You might almost do better to bind Blink Shirt for move-action DimDoor.

Alternately, Manticore Belt can net up to I think six or seven shots at cap, with Greater Manyshot you can apply sneak attack damage to each of them. That might be a better chassis for damage output on this build.

It's a shame you can't bind both to your Totem chakra, but I don't think you can pull it off with only two levels of Totem, since you'll only have one Bind available, even with the double-bind feat. Shoot someone with a bunch of attacks, then blink to cover...

[Venger]

I don't really see how Totemist adds to this build, to be honest. I mean yea, sure, you get four natural attacks, but unless you've got some damage stacking going on, they're going to be four very weak attacks. Sure, you've got a bit of sneak attack damage, but not a lot, since Spymaster is less about damage and more about getting in and out undetected, or at least unsuspected.

You might almost do better to bind Blink Shirt for move-action DimDoor.

Alternately, Manticore Belt can net up to I think six or seven shots at cap, with Greater Manyshot you can apply sneak attack damage to each of them. That might be a better chassis for damage output on this build.

It's a shame you can't bind both to your Totem chakra, but I don't think you can pull it off with only two levels of Totem, since you'll only have one Bind available, even with the double-bind feat. Shoot someone with a bunch of attacks, then blink to cover...

don't I get all the melds with totemist? I thought that was how it worked. right, that's probably what I'll be doing the most of, but I know it doesn't pay off to be wholly helpless in combat

what do you mean by "damage stacking?" doesn't SA apply to every attack in a full attack? I thought that was the point of twf rogues. if I hit with all 4 girallon arms, don't I get to apply SA damage 4 times like with twf? that was my plan for making up the lost SA damage.

my aim with totemist was 1, qualification for umbral disciple to get its sweet hide in plain sight, and also I'd never played a meldshaper before and I thought that rolling a totemist would be fun.

I have heard a lot of really great things said about the blink shirt and feel as though I must be missing something. doesn't dimension door stop you from doing anything once you've used it? are you supposed to use a standard (say melee attack) and then dimdoor away with your move? does it provoke AoOs? you're not casting a spell, per se, but you're not really moving out of threatened space either.

double bind is only available if my meldshaper level is at least 9, which isn't really doable without trimming 2 levels of something somewhere and filling all of my last 5 with totemist instead of skill things.

I heard about the manticore belt thing (I think in the simple RAW thread) but greater manyshot takes up 4 feats, and I'm just not sure I want that, especially since it means I won't be able to use that combo until very late in the game.

I do like the idea of blinking to cover. if it's within 10 feet of a shadow, I can hide! hooray!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

don't I get all the melds with totemist? I thought that was how it worked. right, that's probably what I'll be doing the most of, but I know it doesn't pay off to be wholly helpless in combatThere's plenty of ways to be useful in combat besides damage output.


what do you mean by "damage stacking?" doesn't SA apply to every attack in a full attack? I thought that was the point of twf rogues. if I hit with all 4 girallon arms, don't I get to apply SA damage 4 times like with twf? that was my plan for making up the lost SA damage. Yea, but you're only applying 2d6 Sneak Attack per shot. That's fairly sub-par on a per-shot basis. Also, you need a full attack to get all of your natural attacks. That's why the Manticore Belt is better for this specific build than Gorrilian Arms. You can use Greater Manyshot with Manticore Belt to get all attacks off as a Standard Action.


my aim with totemist was 1, qualification for umbral disciple to get its sweet hide in plain sight, and also I'd never played a meldshaper before and I thought that rolling a totemist would be fun. Sure, totemists can be fun, but you can qualify for Umbral Disciple without the dip, just a feat.


I have heard a lot of really great things said about the blink shirt and feel as though I must be missing something. doesn't dimension door stop you from doing anything once you've used it? are you supposed to use a standard (say melee attack) and then dimdoor away with your move? does it provoke AoOs? you're not casting a spell, per se, but you're not really moving out of threatened space either. Yea, it's use the standard action to do something, then DimDoor out. And yes, since it's an (Su) ability (Not a spell-like ability, a Supernatural ability, big difference) it does not provoke AoO to use.

But really, the biggest benefit in the Blink Shirt is the out-of-combat usage. You're already build for infiltration, now you can literally teleport through walls, up or down floors, past guards... it gives you enormous mobility that allows you to bypass traps, pits, choke-points... sky's the limit here.


double bind is only available if my meldshaper level is at least 9, which isn't really doable without trimming 2 levels of something somewhere and filling all of my last 5 with totemist instead of skill things.Indeed. Which is why I was wondering about Totemist to begin with. You can be decent in combat without Totemist. Usually, if you are going for Gorrilian Arms, you're also wanting Sphinx Claws for pounce, Totem Avatar for the damage boost, and either Urksan Greaves or Thunderstep Boots for more damage boosting. You have none of those, which makes it a very sub-par option for you.


I heard about the manticore belt thing (I think in the simple RAW thread) but greater manyshot takes up 4 feats, and I'm just not sure I want that, especially since it means I won't be able to use that combo until very late in the game.Well, it is your choice, but it would provide a significant damage boost, and a ranged one at that. You are right about the feat investment, though.


I do like the idea of blinking to cover. if it's within 10 feet of a shadow, I can hide! hooray!

That's one of the main uses for Blink Shirt. It's your Panic Button if something goes pear shaped, you have a means of retreat.

[Venger]

utility and the out of combat aspect is part of the rest of the appeal totemist has for me. I'm aware I can get into umbral disciple with just bonus essentia before level 5, but it wouldn't do anything until then, and my essentia would just be good for embrace of the shadows, versus having lots of essentia to put in that and other things. I hadn't thought of blink shirt that way, but now I'm excited to use it.

I had a question about disguise. as you can see, that's kind of a big deal for me, sp you've got your soulmelds bound, from my understanding, you've got ghostly animal parts and stuff floating around your head and such.

If you make a disguise check to disguise yourself, can you hide these weird things? if not, they're going to essentially ruin the disguise aspect of the character, since no matter what I look like, the guy with 4 arms or a giant tail is going to stick out.

[Rejakor]

Soulmelds can either look like items or like floating auras - it's entirely up to the player.

If they look like items, you can disguise them.


That said, I don't think Schneekey is entirely correct about this. At level 5, your fighting output is rather admirable, it's just as you start taking levels in classes that do nothing for your fighting ability that it starts to suffer.

If you have open chakra (hands) and a one level dip in Incarnate, you can bind Astral Vambraces for DR and 2 slam attacks (which don't interfere with claw attacks or weapon holding). The one reason to bind Blink shirt to totem chakra is that the 2 melds that give you 4 claws both take your hands, which means you can't wield say 2 daggers. If you're evil, Incarnate also gives you Incarnate Avatar, which, not even bound to anything, gives you 2 damage on each of your attacks per essentia invested.

A swordsage dip can give you more % miss chance than umbral disciple any round you move (Child of Shadow) as well as counter-attacks from setting sun and diamond mind that are great (counter charge, rapid counter, something riposte), and more sneak attack if you want it (Assassin's Stance) as well as buffs like Burning Blade (all attacks on a full attack get 1d6+IL fire damage).

So with a bit more investment into the base incarnum classes, and a level of swordsage, your melee damage potential goes up a lot.

With more incarnum, or maybe just more straight totemist, you could bind Blink Shirt and Manticore Belt to your totem chakra, and teleport around greater manyshotting with spines(or hell, a bow).

Otherwise you could forget the incarnum part and just be a regular shadow blade hit and run fighter dex to damage swordsage rogue guy.


All these options still give you plenty of room to fit in Spymaster 7, i'm talking about between 5 and 8 levels total here.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Soulmelds can either look like items or like floating auras - it's entirely up to the player.

If they look like items, you can disguise them.


That said, I don't think Schneekey is entirely correct about this. At level 5, your fighting output is rather admirable, it's just as you start taking levels in classes that do nothing for your fighting ability that it starts to suffer.How so?


If you have open chakra (hands) and a one level dip in Incarnate, you can bind Astral Vambraces for DR and 2 slam attacks (which don't interfere with claw attacks or weapon holding). The one reason to bind Blink shirt to totem chakra is that the 2 melds that give you 4 claws both take your hands, which means you can't wield say 2 daggers. If you're evil, Incarnate also gives you Incarnate Avatar, which, not even bound to anything, gives you 2 damage on each of your attacks per essentia invested.Several problems with this:

1) Open Chakra doesn't give you an extra bind. He'd need to pick up an extra bind slot somewhere, which he can't do without too many levels in something else not contributing.

2) Astral Vambraces give DR/Magic, which is pointless since everything is going to be able to bypass it with pathetic ease. As for the slam attacks, there's much better ways to do this.

3) With proper damage-stacking, four claws are far more potent than two daggers. Go back and read how natural attacks and weapon attacks work together, or more importantly, don't.

4) Blink Shirt is for amazing short-range mobility. You are freaking Nightcrawler. Have fun.


A swordsage dip can give you more % miss chance than umbral disciple any round you move (Child of Shadow) as well as counter-attacks from setting sun and diamond mind that are great (counter charge, rapid counter, something riposte), and more sneak attack if you want it (Assassin's Stance) as well as buffs like Burning Blade (all attacks on a full attack get 1d6+IL fire damage).I think you missed the part about Hide In Plain Sight, which Umbral Disciple gets. You also missed the 'Always On' aspect, even when not moving. Which, for this build, is *FAR* more important. Burning Blade stinks on dry ice, never bother with it.


So with a bit more investment into the base incarnum classes, and a level of swordsage, your melee damage potential goes up a lot.

With more incarnum, or maybe just more straight totemist, you could bind Blink Shirt and Manticore Belt to your totem chakra, and teleport around greater manyshotting with spines(or hell, a bow).

Otherwise you could forget the incarnum part and just be a regular shadow blade hit and run fighter dex to damage swordsage rogue guy.


All these options still give you plenty of room to fit in Spymaster 7, i'm talking about between 5 and 8 levels total here.You seem to be missing the entire point of the build. He's trying to tack on a bit of extra damage output, and understanding how Incarnum can synergize with his existing build. He's not trying to make a damage machine which completely throws away the existing character concept.

[Piggy Knowles]

Hmm... What about something like this?

1. Changeling Rogue1- Skill Focus (Bluff)
2. Totemist1-
3. Totemist2- Darkstalker
4. Cobra Strike Monk1- Dodge
5. Cobra Strike Monk2- Mobility
6. Spymaster1- Spring Attack
7. Spymaster2-
8. Spymaster3-
9. Spymaster4- Blind-Fight
10. Telflammar Shadowlord1-
11. Telflammar Shadowlord2-
12. Telflammar Shadowlord3- Perfect Reflection
13. Telflammar Shadowlord4-
14. Exemplar1-
15. Spymaster5- Racial Emulation
16. Spymaster6-
17. Spymaster7-
18. Telflammar Shadowlord5- Bonus Essentia
19. Uncanny Trickster1-
20. Uncanny Trickster2-

Instead of focusing on the totemist's natural attacks, focus on Blink Shirt, as Shneekey suggested.

For soulmelds, you definitely want to always have Blink Shirt and something that boosts Hide/MS shaped (I like Kruthik Claws, personally). The big question is whether you bind Blink Shirt to your Totem Chakra (allowing you to do things like perform a standard action, then blink away as a move action and pounce at the end of your blink), or just shape it without binding it, which means that your blink/pounce is a standard action instead of a move action but lets you bind something else to your Totem Chakra (Girallon's Arms could still work if you really like making the four attacks at the end of your blink, but it's not your only option).

Personally, I like having the Blink Shirt as your totem meld here, but if you still really like the idea of the Girallon Arms being the source of your attacks, it's an option.

The latter feats (level 12 on) would be pretty open. Staggering Strike certainly wouldn't go amiss, and Craven is always an excellent option if you want to boost your damage. Oh, and if your DM rules that the Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra feats grant you bonus soulmelds and chakra binds, definitely take those instead (Shape Soulmeld for Thief's Gloves wouldn't go amiss).

That said, I do like Perfect Reflection/Racial Emulation a lot, and one cool trick is to use Perfect Reflection to impersonate one of your enemies. The feat gives you a +6 bonus to impersonate someone who is present, which more or less eliminates the spot bonus everyone else gets to break your disguise. Carry an eversmoking bottle, close in to your target and, while everything is obscured, change into them. Use sleight of hand to steal some of his belongings to really help convince everyone. Then use bluff to convince his buddies that you're the real guy, and he's the fake.

Also, Telflammar Shadowlord gives you spells. That means that once you hit 2nd level spells (ECL 12), you qualify for the Vecna-Blooded template. That is probably the single best thing a character like you can take, since it makes you immune to ALL divination without a save or caster level check, and makes people forget about your existence when you're not around. It's got an LA, but in this case it's worth it, if it's allowed. You can find the details about the God-blooded templates in MM5.

EDIT: Forgot to mention - yes, this is missing Umbral Disciple. Its blur effect doesn't stack with the Shadowlord's shadow blur, and you can always pick up a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis for HiPS. It could still be squeezed in if you wanted it, dropping Uncanny Trickster and either the last level of Shadowlord (shadow discorporation and third level spells) or the level of Exemplar, but I don't think it's really necessary.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hmm... What about something like this?

1. Changeling Rogue1- Skill Focus (Bluff)
2. Totemist1-
3. Totemist2- Darkstalker
4. Cobra Strike Monk1- Dodge
5. Cobra Strike Monk2- Mobility
6. Spymaster1- Spring Attack
7. Spymaster2-
8. Spymaster3-
9. Spymaster4- Blind-Fight
10. Telflammar Shadowlord1-
11. Telflammar Shadowlord2-
12. Telflammar Shadowlord3- Perfect Reflection
13. Telflammar Shadowlord4-
14. Exemplar1-
15. Spymaster5- Racial Emulation
16. Spymaster6-
17. Spymaster7-
18. Telflammar Shadowlord5- Bonus Essentia
19. Uncanny Trickster1-
20. Uncanny Trickster2-

Instead of focusing on the totemist's natural attacks, focus on Blink Shirt, as Shneekey suggested.

For soulmelds, you definitely want to always have Blink Shirt and something that boosts Hide/MS shaped (I like Kruthik Claws, personally). The big question is whether you bind Blink Shirt to your Totem Chakra (allowing you to do things like perform a standard action, then blink away as a move action and pounce at the end of your blink), or just shape it without binding it, which means that your blink/pounce is a standard action instead of a move action but lets you bind something else to your Totem Chakra (Girallon's Arms could still work if you really like making the four attacks at the end of your blink, but it's not your only option).

Personally, I like having the Blink Shirt as your totem meld here, but if you still really like the idea of the Girallon Arms being the source of your attacks, it's an option.

The latter feats (level 12 on) would be pretty open. Staggering Strike certainly wouldn't go amiss, and Craven is always an excellent option if you want to boost your damage. Oh, and if your DM rules that the Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra feats grant you bonus soulmelds and chakra binds, definitely take those instead (Shape Soulmeld for Thief's Gloves wouldn't go amiss).

That said, I do like Perfect Reflection/Racial Emulation a lot, and one cool trick is to use Perfect Reflection to impersonate one of your enemies. The feat gives you a +6 bonus to impersonate someone who is present, which more or less eliminates the spot bonus everyone else gets to break your disguise. Carry an eversmoking bottle, close in to your target and, while everything is obscured, change into them. Use sleight of hand to steal some of his belongings to really help convince everyone. Then use bluff to convince his buddies that you're the real guy, and he's the fake.

Also, Telflammar Shadowlord gives you spells. That means that once you hit 2nd level spells (ECL 12), you qualify for the Vecna-Blooded template. That is probably the single best thing a character like you can take, since it makes you immune to ALL divination without a save or caster level check, and makes people forget about your existence when you're not around. It's got an LA, but in this case it's worth it, if it's allowed. You can find the details about the God-blooded templates in MM5.

EDIT: Forgot to mention - yes, this is missing Umbral Disciple. Its blur effect doesn't stack with the Shadowlord's shadow blur, and you can always pick up a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis for HiPS. It could still be squeezed in if you wanted it, dropping Uncanny Trickster and either the last level of Shadowlord (shadow discorporation and third level spells) or the level of Exemplar, but I don't think it's really necessary.

This is a perfectly viable build. Umbral Disciple is fun, but you already get the miss chance, and like he said, you can pick up HiPS elsewhere. But this DOES significantly increase your damage output with Blink Shirt to DimDoor as a move action + Shadowpounce which bypasses DimDoor's 'no actions' clause and replaces it with a full attack.

The only thing it is missing is damage stacking. Getting a couple of levels of Swordsage in there somewhere can net Assassin's Stance and that also allows Shadow Blade if you want to be more Dex-centric.

[Rejakor]

The problem with that is it gets to Spymaster 7 at level 17.

The guy wants to use the Deep Cover ability, so why not try to find some way that being in Deep Cover would help him do combat? I mean, death attack stinks, but surely there's something that could be done while undetectably disguised that could help him out in combat.

[Piggy Knowles]

The problem with that is it gets to Spymaster 7 at level 17.

The guy wants to use the Deep Cover ability, so why not try to find some way that being in Deep Cover would help him do combat? I mean, death attack stinks, but surely there's something that could be done while undetectably disguised that could help him out in combat.

True, but that's only one level later than he hits it in his original build. He could always delay the level in Exemplar, and arrive there at the same time.

Deep Cover is an insanely cool ability, but I don't know that Death Attack is the best way to utilize it. To get a really reliable death attack generally requires devoting a LOT of the build to it (like, 15 levels a lot). But if that's the direction he wants to go, taking the last level of Telflammar Shadowlord will get him Death Attack, plus an extra third level spell each day.

[Rejakor]

Well no, death attack sucks. I was just thinking of things that being disguised as some dude's buddy would help with. I mean, sneak attack, yeah, but other than that all the stuff I can think of is RP based like convincing guards to go with you to someplace they're easy to murder while disguised as their good buddy frank, or putting some dragon bile in their ale or whatever.

I mean theoretically you could sleight of hand and steal all of someone's weapons without them noticing.

[Hecuba]

I've been trying to wrangle a build out of spymaster due to its very cool deep cover ability, which I've been dying to use in a game for years. I've finally gotten the opportunity, but am running into some doubts.

Assuming you can get the evil requirement waved (or don't need to), Zentarim Spy (Player's Guide to Faerun) will net you Deep Cover in 5 levels instead.

The ability wording, however, is somewhat less ambiguous: if you're particularly concerned trying to use it to cover non-scrying divination or deific magic, Spymaster is on (very slightly) firmer ground.

In contrast, if you're concerned about non-divination (and even non-magical) mind-reading Zentarim Spy is on firmer ground.


Well no, death attack sucks. I was just thinking of things that being disguised as some dude's buddy would help with. I mean, sneak attack, yeah, but other than that all the stuff I can think of is RP based like convincing guards to go with you to someplace they're easy to murder while disguised as their good buddy frank, or putting some dragon bile in their ale or whatever.

That is one of the major issues with the class. The ability is very cool, but it shines:


Out of combat
When used for a long con


Neither situation is particularly easy to manage for most playstyles.
As an example:

Rogue\Spymaster\Black Dog could have a huge influence on the game world
Rogue\Spymaster\Black Dog could have very minimal interaction with most game play

[Venger]

Hmm... What about something like this?

1. Changeling Rogue1- Skill Focus (Bluff)
2. Totemist1-
3. Totemist2- Darkstalker
4. Cobra Strike Monk1- Dodge
5. Cobra Strike Monk2- Mobility
6. Spymaster1- Spring Attack
7. Spymaster2-
8. Spymaster3-
9. Spymaster4- Blind-Fight
10. Telflammar Shadowlord1-
11. Telflammar Shadowlord2-
12. Telflammar Shadowlord3- Perfect Reflection
13. Telflammar Shadowlord4-
14. Exemplar1-
15. Spymaster5- Racial Emulation
16. Spymaster6-
17. Spymaster7-
18. Telflammar Shadowlord5- Bonus Essentia
19. Uncanny Trickster1-
20. Uncanny Trickster2-

I would probably need to pick up able learner to get the requisite ranks in disguise without shooting myself in the foot from levels 2-5. shouldn't be a problem, honestly (humans and doppelgangers can get it, so a human/doppelganger should get it)

dm has leveled the possibility of flaws being allowed, so I'll mention if they are/aren't, I just mention it because it'd let me get some feat stuf out of the way early.

it's a shame cobra strike monk can't give midnight dodge, more essentia never hurts. couldn't hurt to ask though

I'd gone rog3 primarily for evasion and penetrating strike, but since putting shadowlord there would lose more SA, there doesnt seem much point.

my dm said I could take one of the "rogue talents" if I went rog2 and I thought slow reactions sounded good (enemy can't make AoOs for 1 round if hit with SA) . is that worth one of these levels? (this is a 3.5 game, he's just offering this thing from pf as far as i know)

the reason I'd gone with umbral disciple instead of shadowlord in the first place was that its hips/miss chance works even when it's daytime or I'm "in the illuminated radius of a light source" and I'm not sure how often this is a problem in games for shadowlord. I know you're very familiar with them, building a shadowpouncer back for shadowdancer, so how often would you say this is an issue?

umbral disciple does have that on its side, but the shadow pounce ability is unique and very useful, plus it'd save me from needing open chakra (hands) for sphinx claws.

I know it may sound kind of dumb, but with the remaining 3 lvls if I don't take the 5th of shadowlord (cool ability, but I hope it doesn't come up frequently enough for me to use it often) I could have umbral disciple and use its embrace of shadows when shadowlord's doesn't apply. it just doesn't seem like there's enough room, and the overlap between the two does make 7 levels seem like a poor investment

uncanny trickster'd been sort of a placeholder. initially, I'd been looking to ninja spy for hips at 4 before seeing umbral disciple gave it at 3. I love its abilities, I just wish I could qualify for it before 7, since that puts it in a very odd place in this particular build.

while the collar of umbral metamorphosis is a great item, it'll be a while before I get it (and magic-marts are not a sure thing here) which is part of why I'd been leaning towards the 0gp hips ability from a class.

crog1/tot2/cobra monk2/spy2/shadow4/exemplar1/spy7/ninja spy3 or something might work, if I can shuffle feats around a little (easier if flaws end up in the mix)

thanks for your help, I'd been driving myself nuts trying to find a way to give this build more mobility/pounce action.


The problem with that is it gets to Spymaster 7 at level 17.

The guy wants to use the Deep Cover ability, so why not try to find some way that being in Deep Cover would help him do combat? I mean, death attack stinks, but surely there's something that could be done while undetectably disguised that could help him out in combat.
yeah, I'd initially just planned on going xx5/spymaster7 and then tossing stuff on the end of that, but that was before I'd found so many classes that offer complementary abilities before I finish spymaster, like exemplar's skill mastery or shadowlord's shadowpounce.

the whole idea was the deep cover ability, the perfect spy, and I was excited about trying to use it as soon as possible, but I found that may be suboptimal given my other options.


True, but that's only one level later than he hits it in his original build. He could always delay the level in Exemplar, and arrive there at the same time.

Deep Cover is an insanely cool ability, but I don't know that Death Attack is the best way to utilize it. To get a really reliable death attack generally requires devoting a LOT of the build to it (like, 15 levels a lot). But if that's the direction he wants to go, taking the last level of Telflammar Shadowlord will get him Death Attack, plus an extra third level spell each day.

I'm aware of the amount of resources one must invest to be good at death attack, and I just don't really have that much room.


Assuming you can get the evil requirement waved (or don't need to), Zentarim Spy (Player's Guide to Faerun) will net you Deep Cover in 5 levels instead.

The ability wording, however, is somewhat less ambiguous: if you're particularly concerned trying to use it to cover non-scrying divination or deific magic, Spymaster is on (very slightly) firmer ground.

In contrast, if you're concerned about non-divination (and even non-magical) mind-reading Zentarim Spy is on firmer ground.

wow! cool class! I can see where they got the chassis for song and silence's spymaster.

the BA 5 req wil delay entry for quite some time (part of why they wisely axed it for the 3.5 spymaster) my BA's low for the first half of the build, so this'd require some finagliing:

something like:

crog1/tot2/cobra monk2/umbral3/shadow 2/zhent spy5/shadow4/exemplar1/xx2

maybe.

the way that its cover IDs work is brutal though, that's a lot of ranks in crafts, and a lot of time and money spent establishing things. unlikely cover won't do much for a changeling, and the deep cover is indeed a little less free-wheeling. having another 2 levels is awfully nice.

[Piggy Knowles]

Actually, my shadowdancer builds were the Shadowcaster and the Chameleon, although I have played with shadowpouncers before.

In any case, you can always pick up Invisible Fist with your monk levels as an early substitute for HiPS. Actually, that's not a bad idea anyhow, and makes something like Quick Change even more fun... Go invisible as a swift action, change your form and re-appear as someone else.

Re: how useful shadow blur is, it depends on the campaign. That said, you DO have access to a spell list with a number of darkness and shadow spells available, so you can force shadowy conditions when necessary.

Dropping the 5th level of Shadowlord is more of a loss due to losing third level spells off a pretty cool spell list. You could pick up Unseen Seer or Swiftblade for three levels, though... Heck, Swiftblade even gives you a new blur effect that's better than shadow blur.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hmm... I wonder if Shadowcaster might not be the thing here.

With seven levels in Shadowcaster, you can have Flicker a number of times as a SLA. With Favored Mystery, it becomes a (Su) ability, and lets you port around once per round for free. With Shadowpounce, that could make an obscene thing.

The only problem here is that eats up everything but your Spymaster levels, and it really doesn't do what you want to do.

You could simply replace Monk2 with Rogue2 from Piggy's build, although it would be more feat intensive.

This would open up the possibility of Craven for a bit more damage output.

[Venger]

Actually, my shadowdancer builds were the Shadowcaster and the Chameleon, although I have played with shadowpouncers before.

In any case, you can always pick up Invisible Fist with your monk levels as an early substitute for HiPS. Actually, that's not a bad idea anyhow, and makes something like Quick Change even more fun... Go invisible as a swift action, change your form and re-appear as someone else.

Re: how useful shadow blur is, it depends on the campaign. That said, you DO have access to a spell list with a number of darkness and shadow spells available, so you can force shadowy conditions when necessary.

Dropping the 5th level of Shadowlord is more of a loss due to losing third level spells off a pretty cool spell list. You could pick up Unseen Seer or Swiftblade for three levels, though... Heck, Swiftblade even gives you a new blur effect that's better than shadow blur.

whoops! I misremembered. all I remembered was that (I think) yours were the one with darkstalker. my mistake, there were several shadowpouncers.

invisible fist is pretty excellent, and I would definitely take it if I end up jamming another rogue level in there. ref saves tend to come up more than the statistical average in my games, so I'm unsure of actually trading away evasion for invisible fist.

you remembered from shadowdancer that I am a fan of quick change (and changelings and their racial feats in general) so I'll put that in my list

I will have a pretty enormous amount of UMD, so even though shadowlord only grants a few spells, I can still do some BC by throwing darkness around. swiftblade is awesome. if I can get a collar of umbral metamorphosis and there won't be too much daylight shadowblur-nerfing combat, I can swap out my umbral disciple levels for swiftblade. very nice of it to let me take another feat if I've already got spring attack.


Hmm... I wonder if Shadowcaster might not be the thing here.

With seven levels in Shadowcaster, you can have Flicker a number of times as a SLA. With Favored Mystery, it becomes a (Su) ability, and lets you port around once per round for free. With Shadowpounce, that could make an obscene thing.

The only problem here is that eats up everything but your Spymaster levels, and it really doesn't do what you want to do.

You could simply replace Monk2 with Rogue2 from Piggy's build, although it would be more feat intensive.

This would open up the possibility of Craven for a bit more damage output.
yeah, that's true. I think I might hold off on learning mysteries until after I've got a bit more of a handle on soulmelds first.

I'll definitely take craven if I can, it's a great feat, and exemplar'll let me put some ranks in autohypnosis to laugh off the fear penalty.

[Rejakor]

Alright - idea.

Throw a magical darkness (i.e. the concealment ability) as a free action.

Use Quick Change to turn into someone the enemy you're currently fighting things of as an ally.

Step out of the darkness, say hi, and full attack sneak attack them.

???


Eh it doesn't really work. No real reason to jump through those hoops just to get sneak attack.

Theoretically could use in-combat bluff checks to get enemies to fight each other through use of Quick Change.

But again, it probably takes too long the fight would be over/it doesn't leave much for the rest of the party to do.


Shadowpouncing is great fun but it does cost a bunch of levels, and right where you'd want to be putting your spymaster levels, too.

Spymaster just costs too many levels for what it gives. It should be giving that level 7 ability at about level 3.

[Piggy Knowles]

OK, I know you said you're not too interested in learning about shadow magic until you get incarnum down pat.

That being said, Shneekey is right - Shadowcaster could make an exceptionally cool build.

Normally I'd suggest Shadowcaster 13/Spymaster 7. It fits nicely, since 13 levels in Shadowcaster gives you access to master mysteries (and, more importantly, way more uses of your initiate and apprentice mysteries - the master mysteries actually kind of suck). Certainly wouldn't make a bad build.

But I might actually prefer Rogue 1/Shadowcaster 12/Spymaster 7 instead, as odd as it sounds. Like I said the master mysteries don't really have too many great choices when you first gain access to them, and that changeling rogue sub level is really good. Add in Able Learner and Craven to boost your skills and your damage considerably, and you're not doing half bad.

For fundamentals, the first things you want to pick up are Sight Obscured and Umbral Hand. Other than that, Mystic Reflections and Black Candle are always useful, and Arrow of Dusk will give you some limited attacks (and since it's a ray, you can sneak attack with it).

For your regular mysteries, you're definitely going to want to look at the online Urban Magic release: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a

The big one is actually the first level mystery on the apprentice path, believe it or not. Quicker than the Eye gives you a +15 enhancement bonus to sleight of hand, and lets you use it through your Umbral Hand (which is basically mage hand but slightly better). That stacks with Sight Obscured (which gives a +5 competence bonus to Hide, Sleight of Hand, and any other check that involves concealing your actions or gestures).

So yeah, with the investment of two fundamentals (the equivalent of 0-level spells) and one first level mystery off an apprentice path, you can use Sleight of Hand at close range with a +20 bonus. As a level 12 Shadowcaster, we're talking a range of 55' and objects weighing up to 60 lbs.

Typically with shadow magic it's best to choose two paths for each "level" of mysteries, alternating which you take. (The reason for this is that you get six total mysteries from each stage, and you can only take the higher level mystery from a path if you've already taken the lower level version. So, if you alternate picking between two paths, you end up with two third level mysteries, one from each.)

Like I said you'll definitely want the Night's Long Fingers, since that's where Quicker than the Eye is. (The other mysteries are pretty cool too, especially Trail of Haze.) For your other apprentice path, I'd say it's a toss-up between Cloak of Shadows, Ebon Whispers and Eyes of Darkness.

Cloak of Shadows is mainly for Sight Eclipsed, the second level mystery. Sight Eclipsed is basically HiPS - during the duration, you can hide even while being observed. The other two mysteries aren't BAD, per se, but they're kind of meh - one is a decent defensive buff, but has a limited duration. The other is like a mini-version of the fire shield spell, but with sharp shadow spikes instead of fire.

Eyes of Darkness is probably my second favorite apprentice path after the Night's Long Fingers, although it's really best if you are trying to be some sort of scout. The first level mystery, Bend Perspective, is like a mini-clairvoyance, and just about the lowest level you can get access to such an effect. The subsequent mysteries are a little less crazy (one is See Invisibility, while the other is a decent area attack), but I really like Bend Perspective.

Finally, Ebon Whispers is mainly for its third level mystery, Flicker. The other two mysteries are situationally useful (a low level save-or-suck and a cheaper but more limited version of Sending), but Flicker is a unique power that gives you short range teleportation as an immediate action. If you were going for a shadowpouncer I'd say it was Ebon Whispers without question, but picking up HiPS from Cloak of Shadows or clairvoyance from Eyes of Darkness are both pretty handy for you as well.

For your initiate mystery paths, it's hard to say no to Dark Reflections. This gives you Shadow Evocation and Greater Shadow Evocation, and that's pretty hard to compete with. And if that weren't enough, it also gives you an improved version of the Animate Objects spell, too.

For your second path, the choice is less clear. There are a few good ones, but I'd probably go with either Ebon Roads or Black Magic. Ebon Roads gives you several teleport effects. Black Magic is a lot of fun if you've got party cooperation (one of the mysteries lets you echo a spell that someone else has cast). Still, those aren't the only options - Unbinding Shades might actually be the most useful as far as utility is concerned, giving you two decent dispelling effects and an improved version of Break Enchantment. And Elemental Shadows doesn't fit your flavor at all, but its 5th-level mystery is particularly powerful.

So let's say you did something like this:

1. Changeling Rogue 1- Able Learner, Skill Focus (Bluff)*
2. Shadowcaster 1-
Sight Obscured, Umbral Hand, Arrow of Dusk, Quicker than the Eye
3. Shadowcaster 2- Craven, Favored Mystery (Quicker than the Eye)
Steel Shadows
4. Shadowcaster 3-
Sight Eclipsed
5. Shadowcaster 4-
Black Candle, Trail of Haze
6. Shadowcaster 5- Darkstalker
Umbral Fist
7. Shadowcaster 6-
Sharp Shadows
8. Shadowcaster 7-
Shadow Evocation
9. Spymaster 1- Quick Change
10. Spymaster 2-
11. Spymaster 3-
12. Spymaster 4- Shadow Familiar
13. Spymaster 5-
14. Spymaster 6-
15. Spymaster 7- Path Focus (Dark Reflections)
16. Shadowcaster 8- Greater Path Focus (Dark Reflections)
Mystic Reflections, Step into Shadow
17. Shadowcaster 9-
Feign Life
18. Shadowcaster 10- Perfect Reflection
Pass into Shadow
19. Shadowcaster 11-
Shadow Evocation, Greater
20. Shadowcaster 12-
Caul of Shadow, Voyage into Shadow

*Bonus feat from flaw, if allowed.

Or, if you're more interested in picking up some of the better mysteries earlier, you could jump out of spymaster after three or four levels and save the remaining levels for the end of the build.

Anyhow, the build ends up keeping to a neat theme of shadows and reflections. Pick up a raven familiar (it automatically gains the Dark template) and you've got a powerful little scout... it uses your skill ranks for things like Hide/Move Silently/Bluff/Sleight of Hand/UMD, but the Dark template gives it HiPS and boosts Hide by +8 and Move Silently by +6.

You personally have a lot of powers that create or manipulate darkness or create reflections. You can use Sleight of Hand from almost 60' away with a +20 bonus, use Arrow of Dusk to sneak attack with a touch, use powers to hide in plain sight or distract your opposition, teleport around, and more.

It's certainly a lot less of a combat machine than the Telflammar Shadowlord build, but you should still have some options in combat. If you think outside the box, you should find ways to make Sleight of Hand a useful thing in combat, especially against humanoid enemies and casters (think spell component pouches, quivers of arrows, etc). Wands would definitely help you stay relevant, of course - rays are always nice, and if you can get your hands on a wand of Fell Drain Magic Missile, that's going to go be pretty nice.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Point of order concerning Shadowcaster 13 vs Rogue1(sub)/Shadowcaster 12:

The other thing that hitting Shadowcaster13 does is it lets all your Apprentice Mysteries go (Su), meaning no SR, no AoO, and no Dispels. And all the intermediate mysteries go from Spells to SLA's. This means no components.

The build I was presenting was more of an offensive version of the build, basically focusing on Flicker. However, you can pick up the two 0 level mysteries and the apprentice mystery he was talking about fairly easily along the way.

I was looking at Rogue3/Shadowcaster7/Swordsage2/Spymaster7/xxx1.

Take the Changeling racial sub at Rogue1. You've still got +2d6 off of this.

Shadowcaster nets you several fun toys. Specifically, Shadowcaster7 nets you all apprentice Mysteries as SLA's.

Swordsage2 nets you the following: Wis bonus to AC in Light Armor, Assassin's Stance (another +2d6 Sneak Attack for a total now of +4d6 per attack), and some other useful tricks (Pouncing Strike, maybe one of the Concentration Check For A Save counters, maybe some Setting Sun for damage avoidance).

If you don't want to do ToB, then replace Swordsage2 and xxx1 with Umbral Disciple3 and go back to your guaranteed 20% miss chance and HiPS.

Then we take the feat Favored Mystery for Flicker. First off, this now means you have it available 3/day per time you purchase it, and since none of the initiate mysteries are really worth it, that means you pick it twice for 6/day usage. It also makes it (Su), which has several advantages, primarily it doesn't provoke AoO, so you can blink away from attacks.

Now, to get Flicker, you'll also need the other two Ebon Whispers mysteries, but those are actually not bad. The first is like Command, only it also affects undead and constructs, and the next one is basically a limited version of Telepathic Bond, meaning you can instantly relay the information you are getting to your party.

So your basic mysteries list would look like:

Fundamentals: Sight Obscured, Umbral Hand
Apprentice Mysteries:
Ebon Whispers: Voice of Shadows, Congress of Shadow, Flicker x 2
Night's Long Fingers: Quicker Than The Eye
(if going swordsage): Cloak of Shadows: Steel Shadows, Sight Eclipsed
(if going Umbral Disciple): Dark Terrain: Carpet of Shadow, Black Fire
(alternate if you want more scouting and less battlefield control): Eyes of Darkness: Bend Perspective, Piercing Sight


Unfortunately, it simply isn't possible to get at least Rogue2 along with Shadowcaster7 and Spymaster7 and still get Shadowpounce. That would have been a very nice damage output build. Flicker + Shadowpounce = guaranteed full attack every round in addition to your regularly scheduled turn. And if your opponent attacks you? Suddenly you Flicker behind him, get your full attack, AND deny him his attack in the process.

[Piggy Knowles]

Without shadowpounce, Flicker is nice but not worth basing a build around, IMO. Opponents still get a 50% chance of hitting you if you flicker to avoid an attack, although it does stop full attacks. It's still a cool defensive buff, but it takes an action to cast and has a short duration.

Changeling rogue 1/Shadowcaster 7/Spymaster 3/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/Spymaster +4/Exemplar 1 could squeeze everything together, by the way. (Or replace Exemplar with another Shadowlord level for third level spells and shadow discorporation).

If you could find some other way to get DDoor for entry to Shadowlord, Rogue 3/Shadowcaster 5 could also work for entry. Maybe dragonmarks? That becomes very feat intensive, though...

EDIT: Also, I think you're overrating the other powers in the Ebon Whispers path. Congress of Shadows is cool, but it's more like Sending than Telepathic Bond - it's just one single short message. It would come in handy now and then, but it's situational. And Voice of Shadows is practically useless past the very earliest levels, being Will Negates on a first level mystery (and with save DCs based on Charisma rather than Int).