Swordsage Stances

[Talya]

Anybody ever see a handbook-like analysis of Swordsage stances? (it seems the best way to get someone to disappear from posting on this board is to have them start a swordsage handbook.)

[rockdeworld]

I haven't been able to find one, but I can try making some suggestions. Note that I haven't played ToB, so these are based on a purely theoretical standpoint.

Only first level for now, more to come.
Desert Wind:
Flame's Blessing - resistance, then immunity, to fire. Not bad if you're fighting lots of fire enemies, fire blasting mages, burning buildings, the plane of fire, etc. And what melee character doesn't take tumble? Granted you don't need 19 ranks of it, but you get lots of skill points anyway.

Diamond Mind:
Stance of Clarity - grants dodge with a better bonus, good for duels, or if you're focusing on AC

Setting Sun:
Step of the Wind - decent bonus if you can find (or make) difficult terrain, eg. with the Earth Devotion feat

Shadow Hand:
Island of Blades - allows you to flank large creatures easier, which your rogue (if you have one) will love. Alternatively, make a wall with your allies and get a bonus for it. Unfortunately, swordsages with d8 hit die aren't really the "wall" type. So this is so-so, unless you have a really good use for flanking.

Stone Dragon:
Stonefoot Stance - Note you can use the Charging Minotaur maneuver and reactivate this as a swift action after. Of course, it doesn't work with Charging Minotaur. Either way, good if you plan to make a lot of trip attacks.

Tiger Claw:
Blood in the Water - Good for the Chicken Infested Commoner, and you too if you can score lots of criticals. But if you can do that, why do you need this?

[LanSlyde]

Anybody ever see a handbook-like analysis of Swordsage stances? (it seems the best way to get someone to disappear from posting on this board is to have them start a swordsage handbook.)

Not that I'm aware of. Why? The stances are pretty self-explanatory.

[Keld Denar]

There is a VERY heavy predisposition toward Shadow Hand stances, due to the awesomeness that is Shadow Blade. Shadow Blade only works while in a SH stance, so most Swordsages who use it spend most of their time in either Assassin's Stance or Island of Blades (depending on their mood), and pick the rest of their stances based on utility, like Balancing on the Sky or Hunter's Stance or such.

That said, there are some really silly fun Setting Sun stances. Really silly and fun.

[Talya]

i'm playing in a third party setting (Dawnforge) in which there is a cultural/regional feat that allows dexterity to replace strength for damage on finessable weapons. This is both better and worse than shadow blade.

Worse because shadow blade allows you to use both strength AND dexterity to damage.

Better because: (1) it doesn't require specific stances or weapons, (2) dexterity bonus is multiplied by 1.5 on 2h weapons, and (3) it is not precision damage like Shadow blade.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Outside of Assassin's stance, Swordsages don't get too many useful offensive stances; but there are some neat options like Stance of Alacrity if you are a TWF (allowing you to use counters and boosts/spells/items/etc. in the same round) or Shifting Defence to stay at reach from everything.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Never really liked Blood in the Water. Also, the Stance of Clarity, aside from being really bad so long as more than one foe remains, does not stack with the dusty rose iuon stone (every character I have gets it before Ring of Protect +2, it's cheaper than upgrading...), so not a fan of that, either.

I love Step of the Wind, but how much difficult terrain you encounter depends a lot on the DM. Can be awesome.

Flame's Blessing is nice at level 16 for immunity, before then...decent but I seldom would see the use in it.

Island of Blades and Child of Shadow are both great at all levels, though without a hefty rogue/SA investment (or an ally that is a rogue), the former probably isn't worth staying in for most characters.

Stonefoot is ok, but needing to be on the ground and not moving more than 5 ft, a problem with all SD stances, is very annoying.

Hunter's Sense is nice to just grab Scent, later on Hearing the Air stance completely outclasses it, though.

[Darrin]

Red - Awful. Never, ever take these.
Purple - Meh. These can be situationally useful, but aren’t usually worth it.
Black - OK. Not the best, but not the worst, either.
Blue - Good. An excellent option, and worthwhile.
Green - Great. You should take these.
Gold - Incredible. These are amazing options, defining aspects of a build or even the entire class.

Level 1:

Flame's Blessing (DW). And undervalued stance. Yes, Desert Wind gets frequently picked on for only doing fire damage, which is the most common energy resistance/immunity you run into. Well, turnabout is fair play, and most of those things that are resistant or immune to fire *also* frequently do fire damage. Complete immunity to fire kicks in around ECL 16. Kinda useless if you're not taking any fire damage, but could be very useful to have around, depending on the campaign.

Stance of Clarity (DM). Might be useful for one-on-one battles (which happens how often?), but becomes a liability whenever there are two or more enemies on the battlefield. Most Swordsages have a high Dex and that Wis bonus thing, so you don't really need this.

Step of the Wind(SS). Depends on how much your DM uses difficult terrain... and most of them don't bother to put it on the battlefield. May also depend on how your DM defines difficult terrain... for example, does this stance let you walk through grease and slippery ice as if it weren't there? Probably not. Skip it.

Child of Shadows (SH). If you're focusing on Diamond Mind and other standard-action strikes, good for move + attack, and good for "just walking around" out-of-combat stuff. If you're of the TWF/sneak attack persuation, not so good, since you probably prefer full-round attacks to move + standard attack.

Island of Blades (SH). Get it. You'll spend most of your time as a Swordsage in this stance. If there's a rogue in the party, get it even more, and you'll be his BFF.

Stonefoot Stance (SD). Might be worth it, if you're a whisper gnome or strongheart halfling... on the other hand, it ends if you move more than 5', which is really annoying. So even if you are small, probably not worth the bother.

Blood In The Water (TC). A top pick for most crit-fisher builds, but I personally tend to avoid anything that only works if I confirm a critical. If you've got a dual kukri build or are going to do something obscene with Lightning Mace cheese, then it's a must-have. Otherwise, skip it.

Hunter's Sense (TC). Very popular utility stance for detecting invisible creatures... but then flour pouches (Dungeonscape) and torch bug paste (Complete Scoundrel) are really cheap.

Top Picks:
#1. Island of Blades
#2. Hunter's Sense
#3. Flame's Blessing.

Level 3:

Holocaust Cloak (DW). Somewhat useful for dealing fire damage to adjacent melee attackers, but mostly useful for loudly proclaiming, "I AM THE DWEAD PIWATE WOBERTS!" Has the same problem as most DW strikes (fire resistance/immunity is popular), and relies a great deal on enemy stupidity to be effective.

Pearl of Black Doubt (DM). Can be fantastically effective, particularly if you already have a high AC, to the point of making you nigh invulnerable, particularly against large numbers of mooks. Also may be abused (drop multiple bags of caltrops in every square you move through, have a dozen hirelings attack you with whips each round, etc.).

Giant Killing Style (SS). This might be a good stance for certain builds, but in general you're better off in another stance. The +4 untyped damage might be handy in a Confound the Big Folk/"I May Be Tiny But You're Dead" kind of build, works with Ubercharger multipliers, and has some possibilities with ranged attacks (yes, that bonus applies to ranged as well as melee), but ranged combat isn't exactly a strong suit for Swordsages or ToB in general.

Assassin's Stance (SH). #1 pick for most Swordsages, and opens up feats like Craven and Staggering Strike (now if they only had feat slots available... hah). If you're doing anything with Shadow Blade, you'll probably spend 95% of the rest of your career in this stance.

Dance of the Spider (SH). At-will spiderclimb, which is super-fun and super-useful unless you manage to get yourself a permanent fly speed. Requires a free hand to hold onto a wall, so may interfere with your combat style and may be only situationally useful in combat depending on the terrain available, but out-of-combat lets you walk around or over the most dangerous dungeon features.

Crushing Weight of the Mountain (SD). One of the few Stone Dragon stances that doesn't end when you move more than 5', and can be used anywhere (even flying). Also a fairly easy way to add Constrict damage to a grapple build. So, definitely a gold pick if you're a grappler, otherwise skip it.

Roots of the Mountain (SD). No. Just no.

Leaping Dragon Stance (TC). Very useful for Tiger Claw strikes that are based on jump checks... however, most of the time you'll want to be in some other stance, such as Assassin's Stance. You can get the same effect by taking the Leap of the Heavens feat. However... most Swordsages can't afford the feat slots for that. On the other hand, if you've optimized your Jump check to the point where you don't care if you're running or not, then you can skip this.

Wolverine Stance (TC). How often are you ever in a grapple? Yeah, didn't think so. Skip it.

Level 5:

Hearing the Air (DM). At-will blindsense 30', which allows you to pinpoint invisible stuff. From a utility standpoint, one of the best level 5 stances.

Shifting Defense (SS). Combined with combat reflexes, can make you nearly immune to melee attacks. Somewhat of a rules headache, because it's not clear when you get to step back: when the attack is declared (insanely OP), when it hits (slightly more sane OP), or when it misses (per the fluff). May also cause frustrated DMs to throw nothing but ranged attacks, breath weapons, area effects, etc. at you.

Step of the Dancing Moth (SH). Somewhat situationally useful, depending on how often DMs use difficult terrain or expect you to walk across lava. Generally not worth getting... usually Dance of the Spider works just as well, or at this ECL you generally have some sort of temporary flight available.

Giant's Stance (SD). Not worth it. For most weapons, going up one size category is only +1 average damage. Also, it only works on your turn, so you have to recalculate your damage on AoOs, which is kind a PITA. If you need this, buy Strongarm Bracers from the MIC for 6000 GP.

Level 6:

Fiery Assault (DW). Fail. Punishing Stance was doing this from 1st level, only this is fire damage, which a lot of creatures at this level will be resistant/immune.

Level 7:

Prey on the Weak (TC). Meh. Skip it.

Level 8:

Rising Phoenix (DW). This is actually not a very good stance at all, since it may be closer to levitating than flying, and most PCs have been flying loop-the-loops around you for ages by the time you get this stance. But on the other hand, how many of those fliers can say they are flying on top of a superheated flamethrower of their own awesomeness? So that's got to be worth something, at least for the purposes of style. But also... Diving Charge/Battle Jump + Pounce = automatic fire damage to everything adjacent to you, so it may be a great way to take out a few armies.

Stance of Alacrity (DM). Counters eat up your swift actions, which at this level are extremely precious. Just to keep on top of the action economy, you'll probably spend the rest of your career in this stance.

Ghostly Defense (SS). Depends a great deal on whether your opponents have to roll for concealment/miss chance, and only works if there's another enemy nearby to take the hit. Also, you get punished for having a high AC, and lowering your AC to make this work seems counter-intuitive. Very difficult to get this to work reliably, so not really worth the bother.

Balance on the Sky (SH). At-will air walk, with the somewhat bizarre requirement that you keep one hand empty (...but why? This is never explained). Somewhat useless if you already have a permanent fly speed, but if not, then quite handy, because it's somewhat like a perfect fly speed and hovering all rolled into one.

Strength of Stone (SD). Meh. At this level, buying a buckler with heavy fortification or that gem of fortification from the Draconomicon is generally affordable.

Wolf Pack Tactics (TC). Might be interesting, but not nearly as useful as Stance of Alacrity.

[rockdeworld]

Another thread in which Darrin comes through. Nice work, Darrin.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Comments on Darrin's ratings:


One With Shadow (SH). Lets you walk through walls, so a very neat party trick. Might be problematic in combat if you're not equipped to attack while incorporeal.

One with shadow is a counter, not a stance. The 8th level SH stance is Balance on the Sky. Basically Air Walk but you have to keep a hand free. If you fight 2H or TWF and/or have a means of flight, it sucks; otherwise it can be very good. 2H can always walk up holding the weapon 1H, attack, and fall, I suppose.

Child of Shadows: I completely disagree. With a medium BAB and d8 HD< Swordsage lends itself well to a skirmisher, so using standard action strikes and tumbling is a very valid option. In that case, this stance is basically constant 20% miss chance, and is a great stance to keep up between combats, in case something catches you by surprise.

Stance of Clarity: It's red. Is a burden in combats with more than one guy remaining, and doesn't even stack with the freakin' iuon stone. +1 AC is not worth a stance in the long run.

Island of Blades: If you're not a rogue, have no SA'ing ally, and your only source of SA is Assassin's Stance.... this is just a +2 to hit. Decent, but not *amazing*.

Holocaust Cloak: I think you grossly overrated this....

Pearl of Black Doubt: I think it's really cool, but IME it just isn't useful often enough. Still decent, but I wouldn't top rate it...

Giant Killing Style: Sucks. If you are a "wee folk", the damage you're losing from not being in a SH stance (Shadow Blade) is about the same as you gain from this, and Shadow Blade works on everything. If you're a wee folk and don't have shadow blade...I don't know what to say.

Roots of the Mountain: Other than the 5 ft must be on ground bs, this is a pretty decent set of bonuses, really.... I don't think it's great, but certainly not red.

Hearing the Air: One of the best stances.

Giant's Stance: Red. Just buy 6000 gp strong arm bracers, well before this is even available...

Ghostly Defense: I really want to like it, but not only do you need concealment to use it at all; by the rules, AC is checked before miss chance, so you end up getting punished for having good defense / encouraged to make yourself easier to hit. :smallfrown: I don't care what people claim, I've played at high levels, I am currently as well. You can still easily get a fearsome, hard to hit AC with minimal effort, it is not an obsolete defense.

[Darrin]

One with shadow is a counter, not a stance. The 8th level SH stance is Balance on the Sky. Basically Air Walk but you have to keep a hand free. If you fight 2H or TWF and/or have a means of flight, it sucks; otherwise it can be very good. 2H can always walk up holding the weapon 1H, attack, and fall, I suppose.


Sorry, brainfart. Balance on the Sky = Blue? Anyone have any idea why you need a hand free? (To "hold on" to the air... WTF?)



Child of Shadows: I completely disagree. With a medium BAB and d8 HD< Swordsage lends itself well to a skirmisher, so using standard action strikes and tumbling is a very valid option. In that case, this stance is basically constant 20% miss chance, and is a great stance to keep up between combats, in case something catches you by surprise.


Upgraded to Blue. Never really used this one myself... should this be green for non-TWF swordsages?



Stance of Clarity: It's red. Is a burden in combats with more than one guy remaining, and doesn't even stack with the freakin' iuon stone. +1 AC is not worth a stance in the long run.


Ok, fixed. How often is there a single enemy on the battlefield? Not very often.



Island of Blades: If you're not a rogue, have no SA'ing ally, and your only source of SA is Assassin's Stance.... this is just a +2 to hit. Decent, but not *amazing*.


The rogue in your party might disagree... I like this one because even if there aren't sneak-attackers in the party, that +2 gets spread around to an awful lot of fellow PCs.



Holocaust Cloak: I think you grossly overrated this....


Hah. I should know, of course, that Holocaust Cloaks are black.



Pearl of Black Doubt: I think it's really cool, but IME it just isn't useful often enough. Still decent, but I wouldn't top rate it...


I have my doubts as well (pun intended), but I keep hearing it talked up as Gold. Would anyone else like to weigh in on this?



Giant Killing Style: Sucks. If you are a "wee folk", the damage you're losing from not being in a SH stance (Shadow Blade) is about the same as you gain from this, and Shadow Blade works on everything. If you're a wee folk and don't have shadow blade...I don't know what to say.


Purple then. I'm still trying to figure out how to work it into some archery builds, but that would require two feats without a Swordsage dip... and most archery builds don't have the feat slots for that.



Roots of the Mountain: Other than the 5 ft must be on ground bs, this is a pretty decent set of bonuses, really.... I don't think it's great, but certainly not red.


Well, it's obviously useful if you're being tripped, bull-rushed, or grappled, but... there are a huge number of cheap magic items, feats, and class abilities that have a variety of stackable modifiers to resist those. My biggest beef against it is, even if I was being tripped, bull-rushed, or grappled... I'd still want to be in a different stance, so that's still red to me. The DR 2/- is somewhat tempting if you could stack multiples of Thick-Skinned on top of that, but the increase from Thick-Skinned gets capped at twice your original DR, so DR 6/- that suddenly vanishes when you move more than 5'... I don't know. Has anyone else used this stance for anything?



Hearing the Air: One of the best stances.


I wish it were blindsight, but yeah. Gold, then.



Giant's Stance: Red. Just buy 6000 gp strong arm bracers, well before this is even available...


Noted. Red.



Ghostly Defense: I really want to like it, but not only do you need concealment to use it at all; by the rules, AC is checked before miss chance, so you end up getting punished for having good defense / encouraged to make yourself easier to hit. :smallfrown: I don't care what people claim, I've played at high levels, I am currently as well. You can still easily get a fearsome, hard to hit AC with minimal effort, it is not an obsolete defense.

Ok, too darned hard to use, then. Red.

Thank you!

[rockdeworld]

I have my doubts as well (pun intended), but I keep hearing it talked up as Gold. Would anyone else like to weigh in on this?
I think this is very literally a "win-more" stance, because it actually says "if your enemies miss you, you can make them miss you more." And a win-more buff is no substitute for simply being good at something in the first place.

Abusable if you can start with low AC and boost it by getting a bunch of people to miss you before combat.

[zlefin]

prey on the weak shoudln't be at red; reread the text of the stance. despite the name, the attack of opportunity you get doens't have to be made against the foe that was dropped; it can be made vs any foe in your threatened area.

This means this stance is useful if there's a fight with lots of mooks and some tough guys; example: you're next to a dragon and there's also 6 kobolds next to you. an ally aoe kills the kobolds, you now get 6 (if you have that many) attacks of opportunity against the dragon.
Or you could use great cleave to cleave through all the kobolds, getting one attack on the dragon for each kobold you dropped (you could even do this on someone else's turn if someone else kills just one of the kobolds; you attack of opportunity another kobold with it, when you drop it taht lets you chain great cleave through all the kobolds, while still generating attacks of opportunity to use vs the dragon)

[The_Snark]

I have my doubts as well (pun intended), but I keep hearing it talked up as Gold. Would anyone else like to weigh in on this?

I've always felt it was rather mediocre. The bonus lasts only one round, meaning that it's only good if you're getting attacked a lot in the space of a single turn. I suppose this is useful in some situations, such as when you're fighting lots of weak enemies, or something like a hydra (lots of attacks, low attack bonus for its CR). Otherwise... Swordsages are somewhat squishy, as melee combatants go. It's not a good idea to go out of your way to get attacked a lot, and Pearl of Black Doubt doesn't offer enough to protect you when that does happen.

If you're only being attacked twice per round (a reasonable rate in most encounters), it'll give a +2 AC bonus against the second attack if the first one missed. If you're attacked three times, you *might* get a +4 bonus against the third one, if everything goes right for you. If you're only attacked once, or they don't miss - nothing.

It's a nifty idea (and Diamond Mind doesn't have much else to offer at low levels), but a moderate, conditional bonus to AC is just not that great.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Pearl of Black Doubt always seemed like an awesome stance to give to a single powerful BBEG NPC, but for a PC, I think you just run into the turtle dilemma. How do you force all the enemies to keep attacking you? The usual answer is...using another stance. Like Iron Guard's Glare, Thicket of Blades, etc...

[RFLS]

Hmm...is there a well done Tome of Battle handbook, or a Swordsage in particular? I've been feeling like contributing to the forums with a handbook.

[Talya]

There's a partially finished Swordsage handbook somewhere. Darrin's post here would make an excellent addition to it. I'd suggest you take it up, but the first two people to start the swordsage handbook shortly afterwards vanished from the forums, never to be seen again. I hesitate to invite you to take up their cursed work. ;)

[RFLS]

There's a partially finished Swordsage handbook somewhere. Darrin's post here would make an excellent addition to it. I'd suggest you take it up, but the first two people to start the swordsage handbook shortly afterwards vanished from the forums, never to be seen again. I hesitate to invite you to take up their cursed work. ;)

I will endeavor not to succumb to the curse =P

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Talya
i'm playing in a third party setting (Dawnforge) in which there is a cultural/regional feat that allows dexterity to replace strength for damage on finessable weapons.

I have a swashbuckler in my current campaign who could really use this feat. Could you tell me which book it's from? I'm not familiar with the Dawnforge setting at all.

[Talya]

I have a swashbuckler in my current campaign who could really use this feat. Could you tell me which book it's from? I'm not familiar with the Dawnforge setting at all.

To my knowledge, there are only three books in the setting.

Crucible of Legend (Book 1 - Core Setting)
Age of Legend (Book 2 - this has the feat you want, "Skilled Duelist" in the Tiefling section.)
Path of Legend (Book 3 - Campaign/Adventure)

[wadledo]

I wish Tiger Claws wasn't so meh as a whole, mechanically.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I wish Tiger Claws wasn't so meh as a whole, mechanically.

The boosts are a godsend for TWF'ers, but otherwise yeah. It just doesn't really give that feral wrath feeling that it's supposed to have. I kind of like the names of the maneuvers though; pretty evocative, IMO.

[Talya]

dual boost for a TWFer with Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind can get you somthing like 18 attacks at BAB +15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+10/+10/+5/+5/+5/+5... which is just very damn cool. The strikes and stances are less than impressive, but damn those boosts are nice.

[Kelb_Panthera]

dual boost for a TWFer with Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind can get you somthing like 18 attacks at BAB +15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+10/+10/+5/+5/+5/+5... which is just very damn cool. The strikes and stances are less than impressive, but damn those boosts are nice.

If you're doing that how I think you're doing that it's technically a boost and a strike.

Also, if your attack routine looks like that and you still can't kill it in one (technically two) full attack, just run.

(I'm guessing rabid mongoose + time stands still, right?)

[Talya]

If you're doing that how I think you're doing that it's technically a boost and a strike.

Also, if your attack routine looks like that and you still can't kill it in one (technically two) full attack, just run.

(I'm guessing rabid mongoose + time stands still, right?)


Both mongoose boosts + time stands still as a strike. Time Stands Still doesn't double the mongoose boosts, apparently, though, just the attacks you'd normally have.

(However, if one ignores the FAQ, which many do, then you could add six more +15 attacks on there)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Both mongoose boosts + time stands still as a strike. Time Stands Still doesn't double the mongoose boosts, apparently, though, just the attacks you'd normally have.

(However, if one ignores the FAQ, which many do, then you could add six more +15 attacks on there)

Almost had it.

I'm not following now though?

Shouldn't that be +15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5 followed by +15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5?

That is 12 attacks at +15, and 4 each at +10 and +5?

Edit: nevermind, got it. No haste effect granting an extra attack on each full attack.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I always thought TC had great strikes... for a 2H skirmishing swordsage.... Not so much for a TWF swordsage, I guess, other than Wolf Fang and Pouncing Charge.

I love taking Soaring Raptor Strike with small (usually whisper gnome) swordsages. Swooping Dragon is borderline broken, what with stun DC equal to jump check (though one level up, WR Hammer doesn't even have a save, I suppose), the only hang up is it won't work on really big monsters. Feral Death Blow is the only save or die maneuver in the book (literal SoD; being paralyzed for 1d3 rounds or the like is often a death sentence, I admit) and still does decent damage if they save. And yeah, who doesn't love pouncing charge?

A lot of the strikes make the target flatfooted to the attack, so if you have Assassin's Stance + Staggering Strike + (optional, but excellent) Craven, it has nice synergy there as well. Not too familiar with Iajutsu rules, but if using it in itself isn't an "attack action", probably combines well with that, too.

[Talionis]

Trick (Step of the Wind Stance and Mad Alchemist feat)

Mad Alchemist feat allows you to create Difficult Terrain by tearing open a Tangleroot Bag.

Note: Mad Alchemist feat has the Prerequisite of Grenadier.