Light-Armour Paladin?

[Enix18]

Hey folks, I need some help with this character idea I've got rolling around. My group's mostly been playing Pathfinder lately, so my 3.5 knowledge is a little rusty...

Are there any options out their (classes, prestige classes, alternate class features, etc.) for a holy warrior who isn't weighed down by heavy armour? I want to make a fast-and-furious, sword-slinging paragon of justice, but I'm just not sure how. My original idea was just to have him be a swordsage with some liberal re-fluffing, but I'm certain I can do better than that.

So give me a hand, guys: how can I make a "paladin" with nothing more than light armour?

[tyckspoon]

You could just play a Paladin.. and wear light armor? There aren't actually any class features that require or even encourage you to wear heavy armor; light armor just means you need to invest more in other ways to get the same AC (and once you have some money to work with, mithril breastplate is a Light armor that's only 3 points off of full plate. It's not that big a sacrifice.)

[HunterOfJello]

High Dexterity.

Over time, lots of characters who are in heavy armor classes gravitate towards lighter armor in order to utilize good or increasing better dexterity bonuses to AC. Mithril chain shirts and mithril full plate are kind of the two ideal armors that most characters gravitate towards eventually. They can be expensive, but they're more than worth it. There aren't many reasons why a person would use one of the few +9 or +10 AC armors rather than switching from heavy armor down to medium with Mithril Full Plate.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Tyckspoon's mostly right.

The only thing that steers a paladin toward heavy armor is his MADness. If you take CC's bonus feat option in place of spellcasting you can put the points you would've put in wis into dex instead and just wear light armor.

The entire paladin spell list is available in wands, and most of it's available as potions for the ones you really have to have when you need them, but don't need them often.

Of course you could just pick any fighter type you like (say warblade for instance) and PrC into Fist of Raziel in BoED. You don't get much more holy, evil-smiting warrior than Fist of Raziel.

[Gavinfoxx]

Mithral Breastplate!

[GoatToucher]

A couple Paladins ago I played a guy who wandered around, doing good deeds and helping people before the adventure in question came calling. You can't really do a lot of practical, everyday good for regular people in full plate, and riding around in it all day is damnably uncomfortable, so he went around in a suit of studded leather, only donning the heavy stuff when he knew S*** was about to get Real.

[silverwolfer]

I would start with the underdark knight varient and work up from that

[Blkmge]

A couple Paladins ago I played a guy who wandered around, doing good deeds and helping people before the adventure in question came calling. You can't really do a lot of practical, everyday good for regular people in full plate, and riding around in it all day is damnably uncomfortable, so he went around in a suit of studded leather, only donning the heavy stuff when he knew S*** was about to get Real.

Reminds me of the Elenium and Tamuli series by David Eddings. The characters in there are essentially paladins of different variants and one of the recurring comments is about their armour: it's heavy, it smells, and unless you're in a straight knock-up, sword-swinging fight it isn't the most useful. (They actually down a preceptor by making him swim in plate, while the regional 'holy order' of knights opts for the lighter chain mail instead.)

Hmmm... in one of the campaigns I'm in, I'm gonna invest in some 'travelling vestments' once my paladin gets her mount.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You could use the Prestige Paladin from UA together with a 2 level Swordsage Dip
to get Wisdom to AC so you don't need as much Dex.

Something like Cloistered Cleric 1/Crusader 3/Swordsage 2/Prestige Pala 3
and follow it up with one of the full BAB Cleric prestige classes for good combat ability and decent spellcasting.
I'd ask the DM to waive the requirement to worship Wee Jas from Ruby Knight Vindicator.

You'd need to take Mounted Combat and a few ranks in ride, and probably the Holy Mount feat (DR325) to keep your mount useful.

[Coidzor]

Reminds me of the Elenium and Tamuli series by David Eddings. The characters in there are essentially paladins of different variants and one of the recurring comments is about their armour: it's heavy, it smells, and unless you're in a straight knock-up, sword-swinging fight it isn't the most useful. (They actually down a preceptor by making him swim in plate, while the regional 'holy order' of knights opts for the lighter chain mail instead.)

Hmmm... in one of the campaigns I'm in, I'm gonna invest in some 'travelling vestments' once my paladin gets her mount.

Yeah, there's some issues with that, as the real world weapons and armor thread has probably gone over at least a dozen times by now.

[Markdoc]

I wanted exactly the same thing: a righteous sword-swingin' acrobat o' death.

The build I went with which has served me exceeding well so far (Pathfinder 3.5 Hybrid, but fully viable under pure 3.5) is:
Monk 2 (Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack, Combat reflexes)
Paladin 5 (Feats:Law Devotion, Spring attack, True Believer)
Pious Templar 1
Swordsage 4 (unarmed variant, Feats: Elusive target, Adaptive style)
Crusader 1 (Feat: Combat patrol)
Swordsage 11 (Feats: Two weapon fighting, Martial stance, Martial Maneuver)

By mashing classes like this, You lose some monk abilities because of light armour, and I don't get the highest level maneuvers at the end of the build but that's compensated for by both what I do get and also by the fact that the character is fun to play and effective at every level:

For armour class, you get Wisdom to AC from swordsage. You can also (and should!) take Law Devotion, which you can fuel from the Paladin's turning/channel energy ability. That gives a very yummy scaling bonus to AC or Attack. If you are using Pathfinder, you get Divine Bond, so you can add Defending to any weapon you wield, if you like, and smiting further improves your AC, if you need to go toe to toe with the big bad. Add on the occasional buff from the cleric and at level 12 (where I am now) I can push my AC into the 40's, without any major ticket magic items (Mithril breatsplate +2, amulet of natural armour +2 and ring of protection +2)

The combination of monk (Evasion, which you get much earlier than via swordsage) and Templar (mettle) means no damage or nasty effects on anything I can save against :) And of course Divine grace + Monk equals really good saves, which can be further boosted by some martial maneuvers. Max that Charisma!

Monks get full STR on off hand attacks, which plays well with two weapon fighting ... and a greatsword! Vast amusement to be had from whacking someone with the greatsword ... and then kicking them in the face!

Combat tactics: get all up in their grill! I tend to move around a lot, seeking out enemy spellcasters and hitting them with the biggest attack I've got. The combination of a maxed-out acrobactics roll, Leaping Dragon stance and maneuvers like sudden leap and shadow jaunt gives great mobility. This naturally means that you often end up surrounded by enemies - in which case elusive target is hilarious: the first time one of your opponents lands a massive attack on the enemy who's flanking you, they suddenly get all antsy about flanking. If you like to push your luck (and I have reroll via magic scarf just in case!) enemies tend to bunch up around you, especially if you are attacking the boss, which means your buddies land land area affects on you and them ... and evasion/mettle means no damage! If you do get hurt, Pathfinder Paladins get swift healing via lay on hands, which will keep you up for a while.

You could get by without crusader, but the combination of combat reflexes, combat patrol and thicket of blades was simply too good for me to pass up, plus you get a bunch of useful mid-evel maneuvers.

It's no tier 1 character, but I have never had as much fun as I have with this guy. The combination of high AC and good saves means that frequently I come out of major fights with no HP damage at all, and I have very few powers/abilities that are used up, so I can do this over and over again.

[Blackhawk748]

My buddy had a Duskblade that wore this: Mithral Tessellated Full Plate. Now you have the protection of Full Plate with the maneuverability of a Chain Shirt!

[Prime32]

See the Serenity feat from Dragon Compendium, which makes all your Cha-based paladin abilities Wis-based. Combine with at least 2 levels of swordsage.

[Raven777]

If you are Ok with being an archer, the Divine Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/divine-hunter) archetype trades Heavy Armor Proficiency for ranged effectiveness. And since you'll be in the back spamming evil smiting arrows, AC should be less of an issue and you will be focusing on Dex from the start.

EDIT : thought you were still playing Pathfinder.

[Piggy Knowles]

An Illumian can switch bonus spells around to be based on Dex instead of Wis, if you wanted. But Serenity is probably the better option.

[Anderlith]

I'll love to see a roguish Paladin Archetype.
My friend ran a campaign where evil ruled everywhere. We lived in a nation ruled by a beholder. I was a paladin, & wished I could borrow from some of the rogue's skills & light armor, & maybe some other powers so that I could hide my holiness, & worship in secret

[DeltaEmil]

If you want Paladin spellcasting and some Paladin-flavor, you could use the Pious Templar prestige class found in Complete Divine, mixing it with the Swashbuckler class found in Complete Warrior.

Not that optimal, but it's a quick and easy way to build a lightly-armored paladinesque warrior who still goes around casting Holy Sword, smites enemies, and is quite resilient against enemy magic (thanks to their Mettle, which however only specifically works against spells).

As an alternative to the Swashbuckler, you might wanna use the Thug Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) variant combined with the sneak attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) variant.

[Flickerdart]

A swordsman in light armour with his trusty steed, skilled at battling demonic foes, and capable of casting some spells to achieve that goal? Sounds like a Ranger to me.

[SowZ]

Yeah, there's some issues with that, as the real world weapons and armor thread has probably gone over at least a dozen times by now.

But this character didn't live in the real world. He lived in a D&D world where studded leather is proven to be effective and plate armor limits your maneuverability a ton, so as a D&D character his actions where reasonable.

[Joshinthemosh]

I'm going to say things like you can use Pathfinder Material. Ask your DM very kindly to be able to do this

Take one level of Lore Oracle and let's say Tongues curse. You get Cha to AC instead of Dex, limited by armor like Dex is.

Then Celestial Chain. I think it's a +8 or 9 max Dex(or Cha for you). Everybody wins.

Celestial Armor I think is in 3.5 somewhere. Not a clue as to what book. Also Slippers of Battledancing PHB2

[Dayaz]

Being a TWF Pally can be pretty good if you can do it right. It does, of course, work much better in PF when Smite lasts until the BBEG is dead, but I think it could still work out in 3.5

And if you're going TWF you have enough Dex to make up for light armor (You're also a faster runner so you can base faster... would a TWF Pounce Pally work?)

[shadow_archmagi]

All my heavy armor characters invest in that armor crystal that makes it air conditioned and comfy. At less than 2k, I can't imagine why not everyone grabs one.

[mirror]

i dont play PF but i loved this char i once made in 3.5, dwarf TWF paladin. Light armored and still high ac due to dex (which you need for twf).

It was pretty ****ty in 3.5 (MAD like hell, feat starved) but I loved it.

edit: missed dayazds post, but pretty much what he said.

[Andezzar]

My buddy had a Duskblade that wore this: Mithral Tessellated Full Plate. Now you have the protection of Full Plate with the maneuverability of a Chain Shirt!Umm, where does it actually say that you can manufacture specific suits of armor from a different material? I always thought they were as is.

[toapat]

The entire paladin spell list is available in wands, and most of it's available as potions for the ones you really have to have when you need them, but don't need them often.

The choicest paladin spells cant be used from wands, despite what people think, and that variant is the definitive worst printed paladin varient, even worse then the version in Dragon.


I would start with the underdark knight varient and work up from that

Terrible ACF unless you specifically can get the DM to allow you to use a bottle of air, or get something that makes your character not need to breath


Being a TWF Pally can be pretty good if you can do it right. It does, of course, work much better in PF when Smite lasts until the BBEG is dead, but I think it could still work out in 3.5

And if you're going TWF you have enough Dex to make up for light armor (You're also a faster runner so you can base faster... would a TWF Pounce Pally work?)

although inherently fun, the TWF paladin is impossible (to support in class) in 3.5 without homebrew.

[Piggy Knowles]

The CC paladin variant explicitly can't use spell trigger items of their spell list, so unless you're cross-classing some points into UMD, wands don't get around the loss of spells that the ACF trades in.

It's really only worth it if you're dipping paladin for full BAB/divine grace/turn undead, and you need to eke an extra feat into your build. Otherwise, I'd say the paladin's spell list, despite being fairly limited, is worth way more than four bonus feats.

[Fates]

A swordsman in light armour with his trusty steed, skilled at battling demonic foes, and capable of casting some spells to achieve that goal? Sounds like a Ranger to me.

Or, you know, a paladin who wears light armour. The two classes are really pretty similar, just with different paradigms.

[toapat]

The CC paladin variant explicitly can't use spell trigger items of their spell list, so unless you're cross-classing some points into UMD, wands don't get around the loss of spells that the ACF trades in.

It's really only worth it if you're dipping paladin for full BAB/divine grace/turn undead, and you need to eke an extra feat into your build. Otherwise, I'd say the paladin's spell list, despite being fairly limited, is worth way more than four bonus feats.

as i said, the Dragon version is better, although it costs you divine grace, it gets you a fighter bonus feat at every level divisible by 4, and you keep spellcasting.

[tiercel]

If you are going to play a Paladin who relies more on his own mobility than that of a mount to get him around, you might as well crank up his speed with speed-boosting magic items and think about the Charging Smite ACF from PHB II (lose mount, get much stronger Smite attacks when charging; combo with Rhino's Rush from SpC and you won't miss the Spirited Charge feat with a lance at all).

It's a nice ACF since you're not dependent on having wide open spaces where you can take your warhorse and get in those canonical mounted charges, and fits with the idea of a lighter, nimbler paladin. (Plus you can go full Charge-adin if you want, what with Leap Attack and whatnot, if that's your thing.)

[JaronK]

How about a Cloistered Cleric/PrC Paladin who uses Persistant Divine Favor to qualify for Paladin earlier, and has Celerity Domain for the speed boost? That would get you there.

JaronK