Help me salvage my build!

[_flint_]

So, I'm playing a VoP level 6 monk with monastic training(Healer). I have already taken nimbus of light. After reading some stuff about how crappy monk and VoP are exlusively, I have decided I dun royally goofed. Can you guys help me make this build viable so that i don't suck once i get past the point where high AC is good?

The character is a goody two shoes, is there something I can do (like a prc) by multiclassing to healer?

[RFLS]

Yeah...basically your only hope at this point is PrCing into Ur Priest.

[Medic!]

How good or bad VoP monk is really depends on your table and your game. I've had VoP monks run around curb-stomping encounters like a champ clear up past lvl 16 in a party that was already getting loot from the Epic Level Handbook and fighting against multiple CR20s at a time, so unless you are 1) having problems or 2) not enjoying the PC, I wouldn't write it off just yet.

Something I definately would look into is the Saint template from BoED, especially if you're allowing LA buy off (detailed in Unearthed Arcana), or if you start to fall behind a bit, maybe even barter with your DM to let you have it at a reduced or free LA depending on how badly the missing wealth is unbalancing you from the rest of the party.

[_flint_]

Yeah...basically your only hope at this point is PrCing into Ur Priest.

but ur priests have to be evil :(

[_flint_]

Something I definately would look into is the Saint template from BoED, especially if you're allowing LA buy off (detailed in Unearthed Arcana), or if you start to fall behind a bit, maybe even barter with your DM to let you have it at a reduced or free LA depending on how badly the missing wealth is unbalancing you from the rest of the party.

Yeah, I was thinking of going saint/risen martyr later on, the problem is meeting the roleplaying pre-reqs for saint. If I managed to pull it off however, the AC would be beautiful

[docnessuno]

Ask your DM about retraining.

Chainging your build to Monk 4/ Psywar 2 (or even monk 2 / Psywar 4, depending on how much you can stretch it) with monastic training (psywar) and retraining nimbus to tashalatora would do wonders for your character.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Can we have your stat priority and current feats please? Monk 6 is an acceptable jumping off point for some builds.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wow, that's a toughy. Have you already sunk levels into healer?

If not, consider going into sorcerer and then elightened fist, or maybe psionic fist and pick up tashalatora (if it's available.)

Of course, whether or not AC is relevant at higher levels is DM dependent, so you might be okay even as a straight monk. You have to realize that a lot of the advice you get on this forum will assume that a given character will eventually run into just about everything that could conceivably challenge him, and is consequently geared toward being able to overcome the widest possible array of challenges.

[_flint_]

Can we have your stat priority and current feats please? Monk 6 is an acceptable jumping off point for some builds.

But of course, how could I forget?

Feats
Hu-Sacred Vow
HD1-Vow of Poverty
VoP1-Intuitive Attack
M1-Improved Unarmed Strike
M1-Stunning Fist
VoP2-Nimbus of Light
M2- Fiery Fist
HD3-Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike)
VoP4-Knight of Stars
HD6-Improved Natural Attack
VoP6-Sanctify Natural Attack
M6-Monastic Training (Healer)

Stats
STR: 10
DEX: 18
CON: 10
INT: 14
WIS: 18
CHA: 11

[LordBlades]

IMO, best bet is to see if you can switch your Monastic Training to switch to Ardent and start taking levels ASAP. Your priority order for retraining(if possible) should be Practiced Manifester (to take advantage of the fact that Ardent selects powers based on ML rather than class level).

[Keld Denar]

I'd suggest PsyWar over Ardent. PsyWars get a better power selection for Tash, including Expansion (not on a mantle), Inertial Armor (not on a mantle), Force Screen, Strength of my Enemy (not on a mantle), Weapon of the Vampire (not on a mantle), and a few others. Sure, you'll have a few more PP, but you won't have the power selection that really empowers Tash. Sure, there is the Mantle Substitution, but that requires some DM participation and the OP's DM might not allow that much customization. Plus, the powers you need come from enough different "themes" that justifying putting them into two-three mantles is a bit of a stretch of the Mantle Substitution rules.

Plus, PsyWar gets a bunch of bonus feats so you can pick up Practiced Manifester and either Link Power of Psionic Meditation straight away in the next 2 levels, then grab Tash (which I don't think is a [Psionic] feat) at 9th when you get your next UAS damage bump.

[eggs]

Tashalatora builds are more popular, but Psionic Fist (or Fist of Zuoken, if referencing the Expanded Psionic Handbook) patches the same holes in the monk's abilities, giving it abilities like teleports, flight (albeit probably through Expanded Knowledge), swift movement and the ability to target alternate defenses. PF/FoZ doesn't have the prolonged class advancement as the Tash Psychic Warrior, but its manifesting does advance at a faster rate.

At level 7, if you retrained WF: Unarmed Strike for Wild Talent, then picked up Practiced Manifester at level 9.

It won't solve all the VoP monk's problems - certainly not all at once, but by level 9 it could use Expansion to stack its size increases up and Hustle around for full attacks; and by level 15, it could pick up Expanded Knowledge: Metamorphosis and Metamorphic Transfer to get in on the same silly broken high-level game that other caster-types are playing at that level.

[Randomguy]

Taking a level of cleric and then going into Sacred Fist might work, but you need combat casting and combat reflexes for it.
Convince your DM that text trumps table and you get full cleric casting, instead of only partial casting. You only get 7th level spells, but that's still pretty good casting.

If you can get your DM to use a monk fix like this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122) then that will solve a large part of the problem right away. You could even keep on taking monk levels.

[Gavinfoxx]

Just swap your entire character to one of the monk fixes, and swap vow of poverty to one of the vow of poverty fixes...

This would work:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4030.0

[danzibr]

I guess I'm the only person that read it as "Help me savage my build!" :/

As for constructive advice, I 100% agree with Randomguy. Sacred Fist is totally awesome (flavor-wise), and should get full casting based on the text trumps table business.

[nedz]

Why do you need Monastic Training at all ?
The optimal number of Monk levels is, in order: {0,2,4,6,11}
Since you are at a break point you should aim to multiclass and/or PrC out.
(Monk 11 is not all that great anyway)

Healer is especially weak.

For maximum power you would go with Cleric or Druid and aim for one of the Monk Hybrid PrCs, but any Wis based caster would work well.

Conceptually I quite like Spirit Shaman with Monk though you might need to refluff the tribal thing.

[_flint_]

Why do you need Monastic Training at all ?
The optimal number of Monk levels is, in order: {0,2,4,6,11}
Since you are at a break point you should aim to multiclass and/or PrC out.
(Monk 11 is not all that great anyway)

Healer is especially weak.

For maximum power you would go with Cleric or Druid and aim for one of the Monk Hybrid PrCs, but any Wis based caster would work well.

Conceptually I quite like Spirit Shaman with Monk though you might need to refluff the tribal thing.

Originally I was going to do cleric, but I did healer for RP reasons

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally I was going to do cleric, but I did healer for RP reasons

Unless you're really wedded to some monk weapon or other then, sacred fist is where you want to be. You'll need some retraining though. You might also look into some of the methods of expanding your class spell list.

[nedz]

Originally I was going to do cleric, but I did healer for RP reasons

I fully understand wanting to go with Healer for RP reasons, but if you do this you can hardly turn around and complain that your character is weak.

Sacred Fist is probably the way to go.

For Sacred Fist you would need Combat Reflexes, Combat Casting, one level of some divine casting class and Know(religion) 8. You already have the other 2 feats.

If you can swap Monastic Training for Combat Reflexes, take 3 levels of whichever casting class you decide upon until you can get a free feat, you should be good.

If your group house-rules away the xp problem then you could do this a level sooner with a fighter dip, but in the long run you would suffer.

[Rejakor]

Sacred Fist wants a monk dip.

6 levels is not a dip.


What this build wants is Apostle of Peace.

Assuming you are Exalted Good, your party can't be executing prisoners or surrendered foes in cold blood that often anyway. (Which is all that Apostle of Peace's code of conduct actually forbids - you can't do lethal damage, and your party can't murder in cold blood - hot blood is fine)

Everything that is immune to non-lethal damage is either mindless or not a 'living thing' (undead, intelligent undead, abberations, constructs) except for trolls. And if you do lethal damage to trolls.. it turns into non-lethal damage. So you haven't actually dealt any lethal damage to them, which is the wording of the Vow of Nonviolence feat('deal' lethal damage, not 'attack with an attack that deals lethal damage' - if you miss with a lethal attack, you haven't broken your vow either (except in spirit)).

So, be an apostle of peace, get level 9 spells (you can take Sacred Fist if you want after a few levels in apostle), get the spiffy aura and the spiffy touch of no fighting, and the spiffy immunity to weapons that can't pass a saving throw against your stupidhigh DCs.

Use a PRC that grants a domain to grab your favourite 'buffs for fighting' domain (I like Strength or Heroism) like Contemplative once your punches start losing their bunches (finding a way to use or get that spell that increases your size categories of damage with blunt weapons is great, as you can use it on unarmed strikes), and you're home free. You do need a way to fly, but cleric casting gives that to you, hopefully.

Before you enter Apostle at 9 (I think the earliest entry is 9), grab 2 levels of Paladin and take the Serenity feat. That puts your wisdom to saving throws, and gives you a few other things you kind of want.

Then, with the saint template, you have become the Serenity Monkadin, which is a very nice Wis SAD build.

Replace Sanctify Natural Attack and Knight of the Stars with Vow of Nonviolence and Vow of Peace, and your next VoP feat should be Touch of Golden Ice.

Oh, and take a few levels of Drunken Master for coolness points, since you're a wandering peaceful monk of violence already.

[Rejakor]

M2- Fiery Fist
HD3-Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike)

Why do you have weapon focus (unarmed strike)? Seems like a bit of a waste of a feat.

Fiery Fist isn't amazing either... why not be the kind of monk that gets Improved Trip as a monk bonus feat? Tripping is cool beans.

Also think about investing some feats into getting the totemist soulmeld and something to bind to it (or a 2 level dip into totemist, retrain some of those monk levels). Grabbing 4 natural attacks with 2 feats is no small deal. Then you get Beast Strike as a feat so your Monk Unarmed Damage gets added to the natural attack damage.

Scorpion's Grasp is also another cool thing to check out. Punch people, grab them, then be in a grapple with them and get damage again.

You could also spend feats on the pre-reqs for Shiba Disciple (OA). Add wisdom to attack and to damage on top of anything else you're adding! Good times. Costs some terrible feats though.

And don't forget those Sanctified spells in BoED. They're tailor made for Apostle of Peacealikes.

[Coidzor]

What this build wants is Apostle of Peace.

Isn't Apostle of Peace essentially unplayable based upon the interaction of its specific rules, the rules for being exalted, and the general rules of the game? :smallconfused:

[Rejakor]

Nope.

People just assumed stuff that isn't listed anywhere in the class' code of conduct, the relevant feats, or anywhere else in the book.

It's like those people who assume a paladin falls if he unknowingly purchases a stolen item, or if he lets someone into the party who secretly evil. Hell, paladins are only supposed to fall if they 'grossly violate' their code of conduct, not if they bend it a bit or break it once or twice. It's the same sort of thing.

The only thing AoP actually have to do is - not kill people in cold blood. Not let people kill other people in cold blood. Not do lethal damage. Never accidentally kill an insect.

That's basically it. Oh, and be Exalted Good and have Vow of Poverty.

Theoretically, they could actually break all their vows. All that happens if they do is they lose the /benefits/ of their Vow feats - they keep the feats themselves, and Apostle of Peace the class doesn't care if you are getting the benefit of the feats - it just wants you to HAVE them.

But people would probably have a thematic problem with an apostle of peace who wantonly murders so it's probably better to keep your vows.

EDIT: And if people kill other people in cold blood? They get a -1 to hit. You don't lose your class or anything. They can avoid the -1 to hit with a will save. The -1 to hit goes away after a couple of hours.

[_flint_]

Rejakor, my man! You know exactly what I want! Thanks a whole bunch, this'll make him a whole lot more fun to play.

Everyone else, thank you as well - I realized that sacred fist can advance healer, which is an interesting concept that also perfectly fits what I want

I think originally I was planning on doing Initiate of Pistis Sophia, but decided that I would have to wait too long before my CHA was high enough(saint template) to take sanctify ki strike.

[Randomguy]

Isn't the apostle of peace spell list pretty bad, though? :smallconfused:

[_flint_]

Even better- Monk 6/Apostle of Peace 2/Sacred Fist 10/saint LA Woo!

Now I need to somehow swap out 3 feats by the time I level twice

Edit:

Isn't the apostle of peace spell list pretty bad, though? :smallconfused:

Yeah, but it progresses twice as fast, and it works pretty well for my purposes

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'd have a sit-down with the group before just jumping into Aostle of Peace if I were you.

The vows that are required to enter the class are real game-changers unless you completely ignore them, in spirit if not in the exact rules details. Moreover, the RAW of losing the benefits of the feats V losing the feats is ambiguous at best. If you don't have that talk, there's a good chance that once you've broken the vows, you lose everything.

More than any other feats or aspect of the alignment system, the sacred vows demand that you be on the same page with your DM and vow of peace in particular requires mutual understanding between all the members of your play-group.

TL;DR: Tread carefully with Apostle of peace.

[Rejakor]

Moreover, the RAW of losing the benefits of the feats V losing the feats is ambiguous at best.

No. 'Benefits' is /very clearly outlined/ in the RAW as to what it means. It means the 'benefits' section of the feat, not anything else ever. Don't ask me why they defined that, but they did. You can lose the 'benefits' of a feat without losing the feat. And PrCs again have been clarified that they only need you to have the feat - they don't care where it came from or what it does/is doing for you.


I'd have a sit-down with the group before just jumping into Aostle of Peace if I were you.

The vows that are required to enter the class are real game-changers unless you completely ignore them,

Please state how this is so. As I am looking at these feats and the class right now and I am not seeing how this would change the game play of a party that is already playing with an Exalted Good character.

The only things that a person with the Vow of Nonviolence and Vow of Peace feats is required to do is; not deal lethal damage. not deal ability damage(so actually, no touch of golden ice, lol). not use spells or effects that kill things (like Finger of Death and Disintegrate). If you incapacitate someone with nonlethal damage, you must take him prisoner(this wording is iffy - by RAW, you must only take him prisoner if you knock him out with a spell - but we'll say it's for both spells and fists). You may not leave a helpless foe to be slaughtered by your allies (duh).

If any of your allies slays a helpless or defenceless foe, they take -1 to their to hit rolls for hours/character level. (<- this is the only thing that could cause a problem in a Good aligned party)


Your purity is so great that any
ally of yours who slays a helpless
or defenseless foe within 120 feet
of you feels great remorse. Your
ally takes a –1 morale penalty on his
attack rolls for 1 hour per your character
level. For each helpless foe slain, the
attack penalty increases by 1, to a maximum
equal to your character level. The
duration of the increased penalty starts from
the latest slaying.

Again, Good-aligned parties should NOT be killing helpless prisoners. And if they do, that's weird. And they can just eat the -1 to hit.

Another mitigating factor is this;

You may ask a defeated
creature to give you an
oath of surrender or noninterference
in exchange for its life. If the creature breaks this oath
to you, you can allow your allies to deal with the creature as they
see fit without breaking their oaths or your vow of nonviolence.

So you simply ask for an oath, and if they break it, your buddies kill them. That's not actually a huge problem for most parties, especially since out of the bargain they are getting an epic tank who can also do epic healz and whose Calm Emotions Touch ability works on EVERYTHING. Undead, outsiders, everything. No save, you are high, the end of combat.




Pretty much the only problem is if the DM goes 'lol an insect flew into your mouth and died YOU LOSE YOUR CLASS HAH LOL PWNT'. And if you have a DM who is going to do that, find another group. Sure, maybe he makes you fall as part of the finale of a plotline or something, which is roleplaying and fun, so it's fine, but again it's like the paladin code - if a DM uses it to be a ****, that's not the code's fault. The DM is being a ****.

[Kelb_Panthera]

No. 'Benefits' is /very clearly outlined/ in the RAW as to what it means. It means the 'benefits' section of the feat, not anything else ever. Don't ask me why they defined that, but they did. You can lose the 'benefits' of a feat without losing the feat. And PrCs again have been clarified that they only need you to have the feat - they don't care where it came from or what it does/is doing for you.
I'm not getting into that discussion. It's the same old hash about the sidebars in complete arcane and warrior and whether you need to always qualify or just qualify for entry. It doesn't matter a whit if I can convince you or anyone else, it only matters how _flint_'s DM interprets it.



Please state how this is so. As I am looking at these feats and the class right now and I am not seeing how this would change the game play of a party that is already playing with an Exalted Good character.

The only things that a person with the Vow of Nonviolence and Vow of Peace feats is required to do is; not deal lethal damage. not deal ability damage(so actually, no touch of golden ice, lol). not use spells or effects that kill things (like Finger of Death and Disintegrate). If you incapacitate someone with nonlethal damage, you must take him prisoner(this wording is iffy - by RAW, you must only take him prisoner if you knock him out with a spell - but we'll say it's for both spells and fists). You may not leave a helpless foe to be slaughtered by your allies (duh). That last part of the sentence you cut off is how.
Beating the tar out of your enemies is definitely outside the spirit of a vow of peace, even if it's not explicitly outside the rules for the feat. You're also presuming that flint's party is a group of good characters, when this is not necessarily so. He hasn't said one way or the other.


If any of your allies slays a helpless or defenceless foe, they take -1 to their to hit rolls for hours/character level. (<- this is the only thing that could cause a problem in a Good aligned party) And if this party isn't in the habit of taking prisoners? Nevermind that by taking this feat you're restricting the other players choice of actions. That can rub some people the wrong way on sheer principle.




Again, Good-aligned parties should NOT be killing helpless prisoners. And if they do, that's weird. And they can just eat the -1 to hit. I agree that good aligned parties -shouldn't- kill helpless prisoners, but like I said, we don't know that this is an all, or even predominantly, good party; and even if it is, our opinions don't mean jack. If flint's group is the slaughter everything that pings as evil types (no offense, Flint) then this can seriously cause issues, both in and out of character.


Another mitigating factor is this;


So you simply ask for an oath, and if they break it, your buddies kill them. That's not actually a huge problem for most parties, especially since out of the bargain they are getting an epic tank who can also do epic healz and whose Calm Emotions Touch ability works on EVERYTHING. Undead, outsiders, everything. No save, you are high, the end of combat. Oath breakers are a thing. If -anyone- in the party is disinclined to believe the prisoner taking the oath, whether the guy's lying or not, you now have an in-character conflict. That works for some groups as heightening the drama and verisimilitude, but it's just an annoyance for others.





Pretty much the only problem is if the DM goes 'lol an insect flew into your mouth and died YOU LOSE YOUR CLASS HAH LOL PWNT'. And if you have a DM who is going to do that, find another group. Sure, maybe he makes you fall as part of the finale of a plotline or something, which is roleplaying and fun, so it's fine, but again it's like the paladin code - if a DM uses it to be a ****, that's not the code's fault. The DM is being a ****.

And this is another problem, though I wouldn't have phrased it quite so derisively. What's flint to do if his idea of exalted good and his DM's idea of exalted good conflict? The book is pretty specific, but it's not an all-inclusive treatise on what good is.

You shouldn't be so quick to completely ignore the human-element of the game, just because the RAW seems clear to you.

[Keld Denar]

VoP is also EXTREMELY annoying from a DM PoV. You basically have to change the way you do encounters and what falls out from them. Its not a bad thing, but again, it might not be what he was planning.

I speak from experience. My first ever post on this forum was a complaint about what to do about on of my players who built a halfling cleric with VoPeace and VoNonviolence and just absolutely wrecked my ability to run the encounters I had planned for the whole first half of the game.

Its not the end of the world, but it does change the way the game is played, all for one player and a couple of feats that should have never been printed.

[Kelb_Panthera]

VoP is also EXTREMELY annoying from a DM PoV. You basically have to change the way you do encounters and what falls out from them. Its not a bad thing, but again, it might not be what he was planning.

I speak from experience. My first ever post on this forum was a complaint about what to do about on of my players who built a halfling cleric with VoPeace and VoNonviolence and just absolutely wrecked my ability to run the encounters I had planned for the whole first half of the game.

Its not the end of the world, but it does change the way the game is played, all for one player and a couple of feats that should have never been printed.

I think saying they never should've been printed might be taking things a bit far, but the rest of this statement is true.

The problem that many groups run into with these vows is that the player doesn't talk it out with the DM first, or the DM doesn't simply dissallow them. Either one of these options can prevent the two vows from being a problem.

Although their use by a character unequivocally -does- make for a different sort of game than the more traditional hack'n'slash dungeoncrawl or wandering, mercenary murder-hobo style of play; a fact that is explicitly mentioned in the Waging Peace section in BoED chapter 1.

[Rejakor]

Why do you have to change encounters?

What about the class or feats changes the way encounters fight? Unless you mean the class too easily defeated the encounters you had planned? That's a level of op problem, not an apostle of peace problem.


I'm not getting into that discussion. It's the same old hash about the sidebars in complete arcane and warrior and whether you need to always qualify or just qualify for entry. It doesn't matter a whit if I can convince you or anyone else, it only matters how _flint_'s DM interprets it.

Actually, no it's not. This isn't about losing a feat do you keep the class. This is you still having the feat. You don't lose the feat, it very specifically says you keep it. You just lose the benefits of the feat. And the people arguing the 'oh but benefits includes entering PrCs' line of argument are entirely wrong by RAW. It says the opposite in several places. RAI, who knows, the designers sure as hell never put any thought into it.


That last part of the sentence you cut off is how.
Beating the tar out of your enemies is definitely outside the spirit of a vow of peace, even if it's not explicitly outside the rules for the feat. You're also presuming that flint's party is a group of good characters, when this is not necessarily so. He hasn't said one way or the other.

So you're saying you know more about the vow of peace that _flint_'s character is going to swear than _flint_ does? The feat specifically says you can do nonlethal damage. Mechanically, there is absolutely no problem. But now you're saying that the fluff is somehow more specific than the mechanics, and you know what it is, despite that fluff not being about your character or even in a worldsetting you know anything about?

Batman doesn't kill people. He only does nonlethal damage (at least in non-frank-miller storylines). He has sworn a vow to not kill.

Technically, mechanically, he has kept the tenets of a vow of nonviolence (not peace, though, probably, because I think he doesn't strenuously avoid harming insects). But he didn't swear to never harm anyone - he swore never to kill anyone. And that is what both vows, at their heart, are about. Causing unnecessary harm and suffering, and killing. Straining the water, not killing unconscious people, that's what it's all about. Not killing. The vow does not give a crap about punching people. You are assuming that it does, and must do, because of it's name. Don't judge the vow by it's cover, kelb. Don't judge the vow.


And if this party isn't in the habit of taking prisoners? Nevermind that by taking this feat you're restricting the other players choice of actions. That can rub some people the wrong way on sheer principle.

He's restricting no-one's actions. They can still kill people who are unconscious. They'll just have to do it over his objections, and take a -1 to hit for it. He swore the vow and will try to uphold it, they didn't, they can do whatever they want. It's no different than a cleric of mystra wanting to not let evil shadow weave users live or whatever.

They could then try to kill him for giving them a -X to hit, or something along those lines. But at that point, how exactly has an Exalted Good Monk, wis focused, been in a group with people who are unwilling to take prisoners and kill helpless people on a regular enough basis that it becomes a problem anyway? Exalted Good is like Super Good. They don't stand for that crap.

And if the party suddenly starts doing that stuff because 'the stupid monk is trying to stop us from doing it', then you've got bigger issues than a game of DnD, i.e. your social circle sucks.


Oath breakers are a thing. If -anyone- in the party is disinclined to believe the prisoner taking the oath, whether the guy's lying or not, you now have an in-character conflict. That works for some groups as heightening the drama and verisimilitude, but it's just an annoyance for others.

So? Wait for the whatever to break the oath. Then you kill it. Everyone is happy.

Doesn't matter if you think it'll keep it or not. What's important is if it does. If it does, then you don't kill it, but you don't need to cause it kept to the agreement. If it breaks the agreement, then you get to kill it, penalty free. So, win/win, or win/win.

[Emperor Tippy]

Use Embrace the Dark Chaos/ Shun the Dark Chaos to turn all your feats into useful things. I recommend taking Factotum 4, pick up an Int point from a Wish or Tome so you qualify for FoI, take the max number of FoI, and then take 10 levels of Swordsage with the rest of your feats going to things like Martial Study.

You won't be great but you can become a decent assassin and scout.

[Rejakor]

But how does that help his goals of being able to cast healing spells, being a melee monk, and being all exaltedey?

Also, the retraining rules in the PHBII are more likely to be your friend here than the Dark Chaos Shuffle.

[Emperor Tippy]

But how does that help his goals of being able to cast healing spells, being a melee monk, and being all exaltedey?
It doesn't. It does help him be *useful* however

With 6 levels of Monk and VoP you are not going to become a remotely useful healer. In combat healing in D&D is generally suboptimal in the first place with Heal being the only really decent in combat healing spell and out of combat healing is generally the realm of wands of lesser vigor.

To be a good melee monk you need to up your damage and avoid *remaining* in melee range as much as possible. Monk 6 gives you a 50 foot base movement speed (grab the Dark Template from a Collar of Umbral metamorphisis for +10 movement speed and HiPS), the Factotum levels get you the Initiative boost to ensure that you act first, some useful spells, and the ability to burn IP for sneak attack damage. Swordsage get's you a ton of useful abilities, grab craven for the additional sneak attack damage as well. Pick up the Spring Attack line if you can fit the feats in (armor can get you dodge and iirc mobility as well) and work on being a hit and fade melee attacker. You should be able to push your Hide to a high enough level to remain hidden after you attack and thus pick up sneak attacks pretty much every turn.

You certainly won't be anything spectacular but you will be able to throw out 60-80 points of damage a round while also remaining incredibly difficult to attack, being a good scout, and being able to harry enemies. Interrupt casters, finish off wounded enemies, pull enemies out of position, etc.

With a decent player and mindset you will make a good, positive, contribution to your party.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Why do you have to change encounters?

What about the class or feats changes the way encounters fight? Unless you mean the class too easily defeated the encounters you had planned? That's a level of op problem, not an apostle of peace problem. You're not thinking it all the way through. If the encounters are with sapient creatures that are subordinate to other creatures, not killing them means they're still alive to give their superiors info. VoP can completely unhinge the tactical layout of a campaign, if it wasn't expected. That's what makes springing it on the DM rude in the extreme, and why I'm saying he should TALK with his DM about it first. I'm not saying don't do it, just saying don't be a d*** about it.




Actually, no it's not. This isn't about losing a feat do you keep the class. This is you still having the feat. You don't lose the feat, it very specifically says you keep it. You just lose the benefits of the feat. And the people arguing the 'oh but benefits includes entering PrCs' line of argument are entirely wrong by RAW. It says the opposite in several places. RAI, who knows, the designers sure as hell never put any thought into it. You don't stop having a feat you don't qualify for ever, you only loose its benefits; and that's where the issue is. Not having the benefits of the feat is functionally the same as not having the feat at all, even if you explicitly -do- still have the feat. That's all I'm saying on this one. The very fact we're disagreeing proves my point handily enough.




So you're saying you know more about the vow of peace that _flint_'s character is going to swear than _flint_ does? The feat specifically says you can do nonlethal damage. Mechanically, there is absolutely no problem. But now you're saying that the fluff is somehow more specific than the mechanics, and you know what it is, despite that fluff not being about your character or even in a worldsetting you know anything about? I'm not saying I know anything about Flint's group. I'm stating that it's possible that his group doesn't see the RAW in the same light you do, and consequently might not come to the same conclusions; and as such, he should talk it out beforehand to prevent a massive roe from following his next level up.


Batman doesn't kill people. He only does nonlethal damage (at least in non-frank-miller storylines). He has sworn a vow to not kill. He doesn't get any supernatural gifts from that vow, so I really don't see how this is at all relevant. Moreover, a vow not to kill isn't the same thing as a vow of peace. Peace isn't just about not killing or harming others, it's about harmony and understanding, or so says just about every major treatise on the subject. Again though, it's a matter of personal interpretation and yours and mine may very well differ from the interpretation of Flint or any of his group.


Technically, mechanically, he has kept the tenets of a vow of nonviolence (not peace, though, probably, because I think he doesn't strenuously avoid harming insects). But he didn't swear to never harm anyone - he swore never to kill anyone. And that is what both vows, at their heart, are about. Causing unnecessary harm and suffering, and killing. Straining the water, not killing unconscious people, that's what it's all about. Not killing. The vow does not give a crap about punching people. You are assuming that it does, and must do, because of it's name. Don't judge the vow by it's cover, kelb. Don't judge the vow. I'm not judging anything. I'm saying that there is no single, absolutely correct interpretation when you talk about something as complex as human behavior; and we are talking about human behaviour here. I've never once said you were wrong about the mechanical limitations of the feat. Mechanics aren't the whole picture here.




He's restricting no-one's actions. They can still kill people who are unconscious. They'll just have to do it over his objections, and take a -1 to hit for it. He swore the vow and will try to uphold it, they didn't, they can do whatever they want. It's no different than a cleric of mystra wanting to not let evil shadow weave users live or whatever. No. No it's not the same at all. The follower of Mystra is imposing nothing mechanical on his allies. The VoPeace character is. He's implicitly giving his allies the ultimatum, "I will reduce your combat effectiveness, unless you follow the dictates of my beliefs." He's imposing a restriction by creating a mechanical consequence for an action that would otherwise have none.


They could then try to kill him for giving them a -X to hit, or something along those lines. But at that point, how exactly has an Exalted Good Monk, wis focused, been in a group with people who are unwilling to take prisoners and kill helpless people on a regular enough basis that it becomes a problem anyway? Exalted Good is like Super Good. They don't stand for that crap. You're making assumptions about the group again. Noone's said this is a group of exalted characters. Noone's even said their a group of predominantly good characters. For all either of us know, the next guy in the group might be a by-the-book Assassin. If he's in such a group as you've described, then there probably won't be a problem. I'm simply saying that such a group isn't even remotely a given.


And if the party suddenly starts doing that stuff because 'the stupid monk is trying to stop us from doing it', then you've got bigger issues than a game of DnD, i.e. your social circle sucks.That's just patently untrue and needlessly antagonistic. Taking the Vow may well constitute a d*** move in this group and one bad turn usually gets another, whether it's genuinely deserved or not.




So? Wait for the whatever to break the oath. Then you kill it. Everyone is happy. And if the breaking of the oath is timed and planned in a manner that puts you in far greater danger than you'd have otherwise been? Nevermind that the disagreement between characters can still represent an OOC problem as much as an IC one.


Doesn't matter if you think it'll keep it or not. What's important is if it does. If it does, then you don't kill it, but you don't need to cause it kept to the agreement. If it breaks the agreement, then you get to kill it, penalty free. So, win/win, or win/win. More like win/win or maybe win/die. Consequences are a thing. Depending on just how that foe breaks his non-interference oath, he may well get you killed without you ever getting another shot at him. By letting him go you may or may not have put your entire group in substantial danger. How do you not get that?

[Coidzor]

If he can drop most of the monk levels, he'd be best served CODzillaing it up in order to kick ass for his lord. Maybe even taking that PrC that's never mentioned and exactly for monk/clerics.

Otherwise there's not really a relevant way unless he wants to dip cloistered cleric 1 and then PrC into one of the better monk PrCs.

[Rejakor]

Tippy - he's got a 10 in int. So you're suggesting he change his stats around as well? Or does factotum help him even without a good int mod?

Also, I don't know his group's level of op, but if he plays a serenity saint monkadin going into apostle of peace, that provides Heal at level 12, which isn't super late, and he's decent in combat against anything with a mind, and he can even keep up with mid op if he gets a few domains worth of cleric buff spells on his list (or better, his DM just adds them to the class list).

And why not tashalatora?



Kelb - What you're saying is, Apostle of Peace always causes problems, and changes the game, and you should be super careful and ask your DM and basically if I didn't know what the class and feats did, i'd be rethinking using it based on that advice alone - advice that, as far as I can tell, is not based on the rules whatsoever. If you go to your DM and go 'Oh this class forces people to be good and it might cause problems and stuff' well how likely is he to a) approve it and b) not expect it to go pear shaped? It's a bloody self-fulfilling prophecy right there.

You want to tell the guy to talk to his DM about these feats and what they do and what they mean? Sure. Fine. Good suggestion. You want to tell him that everything is screwed forever? Less fine. Because it isn't. It only is if people go stupid about this thing, and from my experience, i've never seen people go stupid about this thing. I know that there's a big thing about it on the internet and how it 'ruins all the games', but i've seen apostles of peace played in a half dozen groups and I have NEVER seen it be an issue.

So yeah. Talking to your DM about using something is usually a good idea. Telling some guy that he's doomed is not a good idea. I'm going to argue against the second because I think it is factually incorrect, and a bad idea.


As for the mechanics of the feat versus the fluff - you are clearly a person who believes that mechanics should influence fluff(and vice versa, as you're advocating losing the effects of a prestige class thanks to fluff). That a monk should come from a monastery and be trained in kung fu and that a lawful alignment means following the laws of the land and hating mess. That a rogue is a thief. That a barbarian cannot have grown up in a city. That a wizard must have studied and be old. That a sorcerer must have a bloodline of draconic descent. That someone with the dodge feat is trying really hard to dodge the blows of one person. That Skill Focus means you've focused really hard on learning a particular skill, as opposed to being naturally good at it, or learning it via brain augmentation, or accidentally drinking the potion of baking. That high int means you've studied long and hard in libraries. That Kn: Dungeoneering means you've either studied lots of books about the underworld and traps, or you live there, or you're a dungeoneer by trade.

And that's great. That's definitely a style of DnD play. But assuming that others do so as well is probably a mistake, as by my personal reckoning only about 10-15% of dnd players share your attitudes in that regard.

Personally I don't think the words in the 'feat' section of a 'character sheet' in a world the DnD character knows nothing at all about should have any effect on the character. Because I am a roleplayer. I don't think that the character knows that he has the dodge feat. I don't think he thinks in those terms whatsoever. He doesn't know that the feat he has is called 'Vow of Peace' - he just knows that he feels a deep kinship with the creatures of the earth and does not want them to die. Or whatever Flint decides the fluff of his character is. You don't get to decide that, and neither does his group, as it's personal to his character. The feat itself has nothing to do with flint's character except via it's mechanical effects. That is how the game works.



No. No it's not the same at all. The follower of Mystra is imposing nothing mechanical on his allies. The VoPeace character is. He's implicitly giving his allies the ultimatum, "I will reduce your combat effectiveness, unless you follow the dictates of my beliefs." He's imposing a restriction by creating a mechanical consequence for an action that would otherwise have none.

Neither is the apostle of peace. Who he IS does this. He's not sitting there shooting out penalties to hit. Who he is makes people he travels with more empathic or whatever the ****. They get SAD now when they kill stuff, even if they are super evil. It's not something he has any choice about. You might as well get pissed off at a cleric for his holy symbol making the party vampire flee.

I also see no reason why an Assassin would have any problems with the Apostle. If he took a contract to murder someone, why would he be towing along a freakin' exalted good character? Sneak off, do murder, come back. That's like 1-2-3 of being an assassin. Antipaladin of Slaughter, maybe. But, why is an antipaladin of slaughter in the same freakin' group as an Exalted Good monk? Being an apostle of peace is not any worse than being exalted good in that situation. There is already tension there.



As for the oath thing, if you've knocked out something, tied it up, gagged it, shoved it in a closet and extracted an oath from it and it STILL comes back to bite you in the ass? Then it has earned biting you in the ass.

If not, beat it some more! Knock it even more unconscious til it won't wake up any time soon, then shove it in the fighter's backpack/somewhere safe.

It depends on the situation, but i'm hard-pressed to think of one where not killing something would actually be hard or annoying. If the party does a crappy job of taking a prisoner, and then does something dumb like give the prisoner and opportunity to backstab them, well... I don't really see that as any different from the party being dumb in some other way, like not checking for traps or whatever.

[Emperor Tippy]

Tippy - he's got a 10 in int. So you're suggesting he change his stats around as well? Or does factotum help him even without a good int mod?
See the 9th post in this thread, he has an Int of 14. He needs 15 to qualify for FoI.


Also, I don't know his group's level of op, but if he plays a serenity saint monkadin going into apostle of peace, that provides Heal at level 12, which isn't super late, and he's decent in combat against anything with a mind, and he can even keep up with mid op if he gets a few domains worth of cleric buff spells on his list (or better, his DM just adds them to the class list).
Possibly, I don't know whether he can hit all the requirements off the top of my head and I'm not in the presence of my books.


And why not tashalatora?
It's better than straight monk but isn't particularly good.

[Rejakor]

Well, it's basically just a psion or psywar build with 'lolmonk' thrown onto one end, but psywars generally do better than 80 dmg/turn, and with dimension slide (from CPsionic), vigor, share pain, and AC buffs are generally a pain to attack as well.

And an egoist would probably blow that out of the water with it's polymorph-alikes.

[Emperor Tippy]

Well, it's basically just a psion or psywar build with 'lolmonk' thrown onto one end, but psywars generally do better than 80 dmg/turn, and with dimension slide (from CPsionic), vigor, share pain, and AC buffs are generally a pain to attack as well.

And an egoist would probably blow that out of the water with it's polymorph-alikes.

Oh, if I wanted to do it I would put the 18 into Int and go Grey Elf Psion with Kung Fu Genius, grab FMI for Int to HP, and basically play as a Psion with a few extra nifty abilities.

He could do it with Ardent or Psi Warrior if he wanted but he doesn't really have the HP, AB, or Saves for sustained melee combat and I don't really like Ardents that much; although a chunk of that is just personal preference.

Neither is also likely to provide any real new capability to the group. A decent scout/spy/assassin type character is relatively rare in groups and he could become one relatively easily.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Damnit Rejakor, now you're just putting words in my mouth. :smallannoyed:

I never once said that Apostle of Peace was a guaranteed self-screw. I said that it has that potential if you and your DM don't have the same understanding of all the rules, and how much fluff should influence crunch. I then demonstrated several reasons why this is so when you called into question the existence of such reasons.

As for an antipaladin traveling with the apostle; how's this for a reason: He's along to corrupt the apostle. He's there specifically to try and make him fall from grace. Mind, that's an IC reason. OOC the antipaladin is an NPC, and part of the DM's plot.

The simple fact of the matter is, there are ways that taking the vows to get into AoP can go horribly wrong for a group. Just because you've been fortunate enough to never see them in action doesn't change that, and calling people that have had that misfortune stupid is just plain rude.

Acting inspite of a disagreement is rude and shouldn't be done. Being surprised by a disagreement you didn't know was there because you never bothered to discuss the matter is just unfortunate, and easily avoidable.

For pete's sake man, I didn't even say you were outright wrong, just that you might be given how very little we know about the situation. Implying that I'm a stormwind touting, lawful stupid jerkwad was just uncalled for. :smallannoyed: