THIS is what a Tier 1 Fighter should look like...

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Behold Mythender (http://ryanmacklin.com/mythender/), an upcoming game about mortals who slay the oppressive gods, seeking to rid reality itself of some malady.

No, seriously. I think this is going to be the mental image that I get when considering whether high-tier fighters are possible. I think it also points to the fact that many people who consider fighters in low-tier terms alone are thinking a bit too narrowly in terms of what qualifies a martial character to be a martial character.

[INoKnowNames]

People shouldn't really be focused on trying to be able to shatter the game over its knee and personaly piss off / make cry / defeat the Game Master anyway (unless the group was specifically challenged to do so), so trying to do it with a Fighter is... i dunno, I just don't see the fruit in it.

That's definitely a possible mental image, and there are plenty of others, but I still just don't see why. Tier 3 isn't a bad tier or anything. It's just not God Tier. Really, the tier list needs to be renamed. Maybe by letters...

G(od)-X-A-B-C-F-Truenamer.

[Xefas]

I don't think it's that anyone, necessarily, believes that having a tier 1 fighter is "good" or "necessary" or anything.

It's that, at some point, someone on the internet said that you couldn't make a tier 1 fighter. And, regardless of whether they were correct or not, once you say that you can't do something, there are going to be a large number of people who are consumed with the urge to do slash revel in that exact thing.

[tyckspoon]

It's that, at some point, someone on the internet said that you couldn't make a tier 1 fighter.

Well, you can't make a Tier 1 fighter within the paradigm of D&D. It's pretty easy to do when you switch to systems/settings where the answer to "Is martial prowess a valid expression of world-changing power" is "Yes, of course it is."

[Tvtyrant]

Well, you can't make a Tier 1 fighter within the paradigm of D&D. It's pretty easy to do when you switch to systems/settings where the answer to "Is martial prowess a valid expression of world-changing power" is "Yes, of course it is."

I don't agree that D&D has such a paradigm. I would agree that many of its players do. Tome of Battle and 4E both had complaints that the melee characters were given too many abilities and felt too videogamey/magical. I believe a Tier 1 Fighter is possible, but it would probably be rejected outright for being unrealistic.

[Xefas]

And the cycle is born anew.

[Tvtyrant]

And the cycle is born anew.

You got me there. I have no intention of making one myself, because I dislike the upper tiers, but I did fall into your expertly made analysis.

[INoKnowNames]

And the cycle is born anew.

Well played, Xefas. Well played.

[Ravens_cry]

I don't agree that D&D has such a paradigm. I would agree that many of its players do. Tome of Battle and 4E both had complaints that the melee characters were given too many abilities and felt too videogamey/magical. I believe a Tier 1 Fighter is possible, but it would probably be rejected outright for being unrealistic.
Which is why a some players dislike Tome of Battle and also 4rth editon. They like the idea of a fighter been a mundane.

[Tvtyrant]

Which is why a some players dislike Tome of Battle and also 4rth editon. They like the idea of a fighter been a mundane.

I just said that? Not sure what you are trying to say since you are reiterating my point.

[INoKnowNames]

I just said that? Not sure what you are trying to say since you are reiterating my point.

One of the greatest ways to get a point across is for it to be reitterated by multiple people. Repetition can be a powerful tool.

[Medic!]

30 more "Likes" and it goes viral, then WotC will make a donation to cancer research! :smalltongue:

Now a marginally on-topic statement to justify the terrible joke: One thing I will definately call a big + for the Fighter was the PHB II, it really took the fighter from the Supposed Master of Weapons to Weapon Supremecist!

[zlefin]

OP, yuo're making a simple mistake, you're confusing high-tier with high level.
You can already have epic level fighters in d&d capable of killing gods, especailly given how unoptimized most gods are.
And it's not hard to make tier 2 fighters, or even arguably tier 1 fighters (some peopel have a flawed sense of the tier system);
the thing is when you make tier 1-2 fighter, the fact that they're overpowered tends to be GLARINGLY OBVIOUS, whereas wizards/clerics breaking the game is somewhat less obvious.

[Blisstake]

especailly given how unoptimized most gods are

I find this humorous. 3.5 sure is a strange system.

[roguemetal]

I think it also points to the fact that many people who consider fighters in low-tier terms alone are thinking a bit too narrowly in terms of what qualifies a martial character to be a martial character.
Martial has nothing to do with it. Tiers have to do with versatility. The establishment of Tier 1 is that they can functionally get out of any situation, face any opposition, or perform the job of any other class as necessary often better than those classes. Fighters cannot emulate a wizard, psion, or cleric with their abilities no matter how strong they are. Tiers 5-6 where Fighters fall are for characters that do one thing really well. Ideally good enough that the casters won't need to waste spells. If this doesn't fit the description of your fighter, I would love to see your build that breaks this mold.

[Talya]

One of the greatest ways to get a point across is for it to be reitterated by multiple people. Repetition can be a powerful tool.


Also, people could repeat things others have already said, for emphasis, to help get their point across.

[awa]

i did not see any thing regarding what these myth enders can actually do.
with out that how can you possibly call them tier 1.

[INoKnowNames]

30 more "Likes" and it goes viral, then WotC will make a donation to cancer research! :smalltongue:

Now a marginally on-topic statement to justify the terrible joke: One thing I will definately call a big + for the Fighter was the PHB II, it really took the fighter from the Supposed Master of Weapons to Weapon Supremecist!

Too bad it's such a long way away.... I'm almost tempted to make a fighter that takes that entire line of feats, though. In a preferably low-op game.


Also, people could repeat things others have already said, for emphasis, to help get their point across.

http://rotflpictures.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/i-see-what-you-did-there-and-also-here-funny-picture-21759.jpg

[nedz]

Also, people could repeat things others have already said, for emphasis, to help get their point across.

+1 to this

[Spuddles]

I don't agree that D&D has such a paradigm. I would agree that many of its players do. Tome of Battle and 4E both had complaints that the melee characters were given too many abilities and felt too videogamey/magical. I believe a Tier 1 Fighter is possible, but it would probably be rejected outright for being unrealistic.

What level do fighters get to sunmon a horde of angels, again?

Just look at the feats martial characters get, or look at epic. The epic rules are the most glaringly obvious example that the design paradigm was that mundanes don't get to do magic, and magic is gun to a game of rock paper scissors.

Just look at the feats mundanes get in epic and try and explain the design paradigm that gives us natural spell and epic spellcasting, while supreme two weapon fighting needs a feat chain about a mile long.

[Eugenides]

So, the discussion aside, I took a look and the whole concept seems...very fun.

[Arbane]

Exalted called, it says hello. :smallbiggrin:

Semi-seriously, I'm curious what the rules for this game look like - so far, it puts me in mind of Heavy Metal RISUS, which could be fun.

[Hiro Protagonest]

What level do fighters get to sunmon a horde of angels, again?

Just look at the feats martial characters get, or look at epic. The epic rules are the most glaringly obvious example that the design paradigm was that mundanes don't get to do magic, and magic is gun to a game of rock paper scissors.

Just look at the feats mundanes get in epic and try and explain the design paradigm that gives us natural spell and epic spellcasting, while supreme two weapon fighting needs a feat chain about a mile long.

Chain-gating tricks aren't what makes casters tier 1, and when you're stepping into the realm of homebrew, your fighter isn't a guy with an extra eleven first-party feats and nothing else.

[Spuddles]

Chain-gating tricks aren't what makes casters tier 1, and when you're stepping into the realm of homebrew, your fighter isn't a guy with an extra eleven first-party feats and nothing else.

What happens when you get T1 and T4 in the same party:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw


[edit]
Other than being mistaken about what makes casters T1, I am not really sure what your point is. What are you trying to say?

[Snowbluff]

What happens when you get T1 and T4 in the same party:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw


[edit]
Other than being mistaken about what makes casters T1, I am not really sure what your point is. What are you trying to say?

HAHAHAHAH! Oh god this is awesome!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I pushed a Warblade up to Tier 2, but it doesn't really qualify as Tier 1 because it only breaks the game in one way, even if it does a very good job at making sure that you really can't prevent him from doing it. There's really only about three ways, all of them moderate to extreme optimization techniques, to keep him from killing you, other than killing him first. Basically, either by not being there (astral projection from your pocket demiplane) or by not being able to be killed by damage.

The reason it is only Tier 2 is simply that his defenses are very poor, and he is easily taken down. However, it is a melee build which beats out the Mailman for damage output per turn, given sufficient opponents.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Exalted called, it says hello. :smallbiggrin:

Semi-seriously, I'm curious what the rules for this game look like - so far, it puts me in mind of Heavy Metal RISUS, which could be fun.
Very briefly, based on what I've seen (there's a Google Hangout session captured on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D68udqD3Szo), if you have a couple of hours), it works on the basis of rolling lots of dice. You start by rolling Storm dice, which earn you Thunder dice if they come up as successes. Next round, you roll your Thunder dice, plus the same number of Storm dice as before. Successes on Thunder dice give you Lightning tokens to spend.

Effectively, it's an upwards spiral of rolling more and more dice. Lots of dice. Handfuls of dice. Which is part of the design of the game. It's supposed to be epic in all scopes.

The reason I consider this game to embody something like Tier 1 fighters? It's not the fact that there's godslaying, per se. It's how they slay gods. We're talking about characters who are allowed to, as standard abilities, beat on gods by ripping out the courage of their underlings. That would totally fly as a character ability.

Really, it gets to the point where it doesn't matter about being crafty or clever in your dovetailing of abilities, it just kicks off the gloves and says "do awesome, ludicrous, imaginative things to beat the gods to a pulp".

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Very briefly, based on what I've seen (there's a Google Hangout session captured on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D68udqD3Szo), if you have a couple of hours), it works on the basis of rolling lots of dice. You start by rolling Storm dice, which earn you Thunder dice if they come up as successes. Next round, you roll your Thunder dice, plus the same number of Storm dice as before. Successes on Thunder dice give you Lightning tokens to spend.

Effectively, it's an upwards spiral of rolling more and more dice. Lots of dice. Handfuls of dice. Which is part of the design of the game. It's supposed to be epic in all scopes.Doesn't sound very entertaining to me.


The reason I consider this game to embody something like Tier 1 fighters? It's not the fact that there's godslaying, per se. It's how they slay gods. We're talking about characters who are allowed to, as standard abilities, beat on gods by ripping out the courage of their underlings. That would totally fly as a character ability.It's called Intimidate to Demoralize. It's already a mechanic in 3.5. I may have tinkered with it a little bit.


Really, it gets to the point where it doesn't matter about being crafty or clever in your dovetailing of abilities, it just kicks off the gloves and says "do awesome, ludicrous, imaginative things to beat the gods to a pulp".Well, if that is what floats your boat, you go for that. Not really my cuppa, though.

[NichG]

A small set of abilities consistent with this Mythender concept that give you a Tier 1 Fighter that no one will agree is a fighter anymore:

- Lv6: Challenge Fate. You can call to battle any extended effect or status condition that specifically applies to a target creature (e.g. you can do this for a disease, or a Ray of Enfeeblement effect, but not 'the sun is shining on me'. Wait for higher levels for that). It emerges as a creature appropriate to the severity of the condition - if slain, the condition is cured for that person.
- Lv10: Defeat the intangible. Now, instead of calling to battle an extended effect or condition, you can call to battle an abstract part of that being's existence. For instance, you could fight and kill someone's anger. Such things may recover given time. Yes, you can use this to buff (I defeated my weakness today...)
- Lv14: Banish the omnipresent. You can attack ambient environmental conditions to drive them away temporarily (1 hour). They retreat to a distance of 1000ft. Yes, with this you can put out the sun, at least for 1 hour in a 1000ft radius. You can also end a heatwave, stop a storm, etc.
- Lv18: Slay the ineffable. You may now target almost any aspects of the human condition and simply end them permanently. Doing so for an individual is generally feasible (i.e. the CR of the resultant encounter is no higher than 30, even for things like killing their ability to die). If you're feeling very gutsy, you can call out the cosmic concepts themselves and they must attend to do battle with you. Upon their defeat, the concept they represent is excised from your world. I recommend these not be anything close to CR-appropriate encounters, however.

[Saskia]

…or it’s about stabbing Odin in his good eye and telling him how much of a little punk he his.

So... It's D&D if Gary Gygax was Sam Harris?

Seriously though as interesting as the concept is, giving fighters mystical powers takes them out of the realm of Fighter and into the realm of psionics and ToB: It's LIKE something we know, but it's not the same thing. A fighter who makes his mark on the world using quasimagical abilities rather than just his weapon and grit in the way described by this guy is just a specialized gish, not a fighter. A fighter is a master of his body and his weapon. what makes him appealing is what makes the myth, if you will, of the citizen-soldier appealing; he doesn't need to be rich and powerful or charming and suave, he doesn't need to be the smartest and he doesn't need superhuman strength; he can change the world with just his will and a weapon. That's part of why first person shooter games like Call of Duty and such are popular. Not everybody can be born a psion or sorcerer and few are called to be paladins. Being a wizard is expensive, requiring expensive, extensive training and specialized tools and reagents that not everybody can afford. With the focus on taking opponents by surprise and holding charm and manipulation as virtues above bravery and drive, the life of a rogue isn't suited to everybody. Barbarians are unpredictable and ignorant. Warlocks make pacts with dark powers. But a fighter? Anybody can learn to fight, rich or poor, and they can do it for any reason. Whether it's for fame or money or to protect their home or for vengeance, a fighter in a D&D campaign is still the representative of normal people in extraordinary circumstances. As soon as you add magical powers to the mix it's no longer a fighter because it's no longer a normal person with guts, grit, and a weapon. Even when a character takes prestige into something like Anointed Knight where he get mystical assistance, he gets there out of why he fights and how well he does it and the magical assistance only augments his abilities; the magical assistance is secondary. He's still just a man, with a weapon and the will to use it.

Let's not forget, "I attack the divine presence with my great sword to dispel the influence of Hextor!" rings with the same silliness as "I cast Magic Missile at the darkness!" Just sayin'.

[Rejakor]

This is what a fight between a Tier 1 Fighter and a Gish looks like. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2xpR6c1qhw)

Note the portion at which the Fighter stops using power attack and switches to Combat Expertise with Robilar's up - and uses Blind-Fight to negate getting blinded - with Spell Stealing Strike and Dispelling Strike to rip buffs off the gish while stealing some of them for herself.

Also note the evasion mid-air dodge at 2:40.

And at 2:31, the Tier 1 Fighter uses the ability to move in a full attack to make a tumble check to not fall prone after being hurled as a counter (probably a Setting Sun counter), then a jump check to leap off the pillar, moving back into punch range.

At 2:54 the Tier 1 Fighter uses Dodge Anything to somehow dodge a spell that offers no saving throw - by picking up a chunk of ground and using it to deflect the spell.

And see how for every attack routine the Gish goes through, the Tier 1 Fighter does 2, or 3, or a trick special attack? That's because the Tier 1 Fighter has more actions than the gish every round, and spends those actions to power special attacks (like throwing someone through a pillar).

EDIT: At 4:04, the Tier 1 Fighter drops a stun-lock/flurry combination on the Gish, but the gish either uses an immediate action spell or makes a save, because it gets out of it after only about 14 hits.

[Darius Kane]

^This. Bravo. Superb analysis. Now do this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5qHxY_vX8o).

[Rejakor]

And for reference, this is a fight between a Tier 1 Fighter, a Tier 1 Swordsage, A Tier 1 Ninja, and a Tier 1 Barbarian vs a full Gish/Swiftblade, a Tier 1 Monk, Archerchivist, and a Celestial Cleric (and her cohort). (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCp24tan--o&feature=relmfu)

They're not all the same level (Fighter and Gish are higher than the rest of the initial 3, Barbarian and Cleric are slightly higher than that (1 or 2 levels)).

That's what tier 1 combat looks like.

[TopCheese]

What happens when you get T1 and T4 in the same party:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw


[edit]
Other than being mistaken about what makes casters T1, I am not really sure what your point is. What are you trying to say?

+1

Also a friend of mine yesterday was saying that the rogue and fighter were actually on par with the wizard and cleric in 3.5 D&D

I'm now going to send him that link until he watches it all and takes a 10 question quiz in which he has to get at least a 80% to pass.

:D

[Boci]

This is what a fight between a Tier 1 Fighter and a Gish looks like. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2xpR6c1qhw)

Note the portion at which the Fighter stops using power attack and switches to Combat Expertise with Robilar's up - and uses Blind-Fight to negate getting blinded - with Spell Stealing Strike and Dispelling Strike to rip buffs off the gish while stealing some of them for herself.

Also note the evasion mid-air dodge at 2:40.

And at 2:31, the Tier 1 Fighter uses the ability to move in a full attack to make a tumble check to not fall prone after being hurled as a counter (probably a Setting Sun counter), then a jump check to leap off the pillar, moving back into punch range.

At 2:54 the Tier 1 Fighter uses Dodge Anything to somehow dodge a spell that offers no saving throw - by picking up a chunk of ground and using it to deflect the spell.

And see how for every attack routine the Gish goes through, the Tier 1 Fighter does 2, or 3, or a trick special attack? That's because the Tier 1 Fighter has more actions than the gish every round, and spends those actions to power special attacks (like throwing someone through a pillar).

EDIT: At 4:04, the Tier 1 Fighter drops a stun-lock/flurry combination on the Gish, but the gish either uses an immediate action spell or makes a save, because it gets out of it after only about 14 hits.

Your analysis is impressive...but tier 1? Seriously? That looked a lot more like tier 3 to me. Possibly with a bunch of temporary hit points to keep themselves fighting longer than they normally could.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This is what a fight between a Tier 1 Fighter and a Gish looks like. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2xpR6c1qhw)

Note the portion at which the Fighter stops using power attack and switches to Combat Expertise with Robilar's up - and uses Blind-Fight to negate getting blinded - with Spell Stealing Strike and Dispelling Strike to rip buffs off the gish while stealing some of them for herself.

Also note the evasion mid-air dodge at 2:40.

And at 2:31, the Tier 1 Fighter uses the ability to move in a full attack to make a tumble check to not fall prone after being hurled as a counter (probably a Setting Sun counter), then a jump check to leap off the pillar, moving back into punch range.

At 2:54 the Tier 1 Fighter uses Dodge Anything to somehow dodge a spell that offers no saving throw - by picking up a chunk of ground and using it to deflect the spell.

And see how for every attack routine the Gish goes through, the Tier 1 Fighter does 2, or 3, or a trick special attack? That's because the Tier 1 Fighter has more actions than the gish every round, and spends those actions to power special attacks (like throwing someone through a pillar).

EDIT: At 4:04, the Tier 1 Fighter drops a stun-lock/flurry combination on the Gish, but the gish either uses an immediate action spell or makes a save, because it gets out of it after only about 14 hits.

No. You have a pair of Tier 3 swordsages going at it. Tifa has Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, they both have setting sun and diamond mind, and her opponent has some Stone Dragon as well.

When blinded, she switched up to Hearing The Air stance. The rest is maneuvers, mostly Tiger Claw (rapid flurries of punches) and Setting Sun (insane dodging and evasion).

All of the other examples are done similarly. There are no Tier 1 classes shown so far. I think you really don't truly comprehend what 'Tier 1' really means.

There are no real examples of Tier 1 in gaming, because they are boring. They would win every fight ever, never get challenged, and are impossible to beat.

About the closest to a Tier 1 in a video game would probably be Kefka post-apocalypse (pre-apocalypse, he's merely a Tier 2 sorcerer with a gimmicky spell selection). Unfortunately, even then, it wasn't played to its fullest potential, otherwise a bunch of Tier 2-4 characters couldn't take him down.

Tier 1 doesn't just mean 'badass'. Tier 1 means 'mechanically incapable of losing'. You are using the term wrong.

Everyone presented in Official Dead Fantasy are Tier 3. Why? Because it is entertaining to watch Tier 3 characters fight. Nothing is certain, they all have their moves, but no invincible counters.

A Tier 1 matchup would have ended in the existence of the arena in six seconds.

[awa]

its not that a tier one is incapable of losing its that they have the potential to have an ability that is perfect for any given situation.

clerics have every spell on their list and their list is big enough that for almost any problem their is a spell that is perfect for dealing with it. this will not help them if they are given no time to memorize it and confronted with overwhelming force.

a level 5 cleric is a tier 1 character a great wyrm red dragon will still eat him
with little difficulty

you will never be able to determine if a character is tier one from a fight becuase you would need to be able to see how they can handle non combat situations to really see if their tier 1 or not.

[Boci]

Tier 1 doesn't just mean 'badass'. Tier 1 means 'mechanically incapable of losing'. You are using the term wrong.

You're using the term wrong too. ToS Tier 0 is the always prepared wizard. A party of two wizards, a cleric and a druid, midium optimization is tier 1 gaming. Is it boring? No. Its not for everyone but it isn't boring. Can they never lose? Hell no. The DM may need to put extra effort into encounter planning, but they can still be challanged. A wizard does not need 19 contingency spells affecting them to be tier 1. They are tier 1 without being so crazily prepared.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You're using the term wrong too. ToS Tier 0 is the always prepared wizard. A party of two wizards, a cleric and a druid, midium optimization is tier 1 gaming. Is it boring? No. Its not for everyone but it isn't boring. Can they never lose? Hell no. The DM may need to put extra effort into encounter planning, but they can still be challanged. A wizard does not need 19 contingency spells affecting them to be tier 1. They are tier 1 without being so crazily prepared.

Wizards, Clerics, and Druids are Tier 1 because they have the potential to be mechanically unbeatable, because they have the potential to have every perfect counter, yes even 'bat shark repellent'.

It is up to the individual build to take advantage of that or not, as they see fit.

[Boci]

Wizards, Clerics, and Druids are Tier 1 because they have the potential to be mechanically unbeatable, because they have the potential to have every perfect counter, yes even 'bat shark repellent'.

But they won't always have just the right thing. As long as they only have the potential, they are not unbeatable. And that does not stop them from being tier 1.

[awa]

wizards and so on are only unbeatable at the very highest levels both character and optimization the tier system is not about optimization. and as i pointed out a mid level tier 1 is still tier 1 despite the fact that at that level they are far from unbeatable.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

But they won't always have just the right thing. As long as they only have the potential, they are not unbeatable. And that does not stop them from being tier 1.

The difference between potential and realized power is merely the will to wield it.

Push a Tier 3 class, they may be able to find synergies within their build to overcome a challenge, but mostly having a team of synergistic Tier 3 classes will be needed to pull through. Which is exactly what we see in Dead Fantasy.

Push a Tier 1 class, and they will, given sufficient motivation, be able to handle any situation. By themselves.

Tier 1 would be if Sephiroth could get Meteor to go off with a single round action. Tier 1 would be if Kefka simply said 'no', being the effective deity of magic and turned off everyone's magic, then proceeded to kick arse. Tier 1 would be X-Death if he was able to simply say 'Die now' and the party simply did.

Tier 1 isn't merely 'this is a strong and mechanically viable build'. Tier 1 is 'Do anything you want and get away with it'.

[awa]

no its not a level 5 druid cant stop a great wyrm red dragon with the abilities his class provides him

[Boci]

The difference between potential and realized power is merely the will to wield it.

Push a Tier 3 class, they may be able to find synergies within their build to overcome a challenge, but mostly having a team of synergistic Tier 3 classes will be needed to pull through. Which is exactly what we see in Dead Fantasy.

Push a Tier 1 class, and they will, given sufficient motivation, be able to handle any situation. By themselves.

Tier 1 would be if Sephiroth could get Meteor to go off with a single round action. Tier 1 would be if Kefka simply said 'no', being the effective deity of magic and turned off everyone's magic, then proceeded to kick arse. Tier 1 would be X-Death if he was able to simply say 'Die now' and the party simply did.

Tier 1 isn't merely 'this is a strong and mechanically viable build'. Tier 1 is 'Do anything you want and get away with it'.

No it isn't. A wizard played by a human where CoP does not impart perfect knowledge of the future will find himself in a situation where his spell selection is not the best. You're confusing tier 1 with tier 0, the prepared caster who always has the right spells prepared.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

no its not a level 5 druid cant stop a great wyrm red dragon with the abilities his class provides him

Shivering Touch. Next?


No it isn't. A wizard played by a human where CoP does not impart perfect knowledge of the future will find himself in a situation where his spell selection is not the best. You're confusing tier 1 with tier 0, the prepared caster who always has the right spells prepared.

That is not Tier 0. Tier 0 transcends 'prepared caster who always has the right spells prepared'. However, we are straying from the OP.

I will fully agree that Dead Fantasy represents what I think would be awesome in a fight. However, all of the characters represented there are upper Tier 3 or maybe lower Tier 2 for some of the gishes (or Yuna in #4, because... well... summon spam). None of them hit Tier 1.

I guess that's why I like Legend so much... this is the level at which all characters perform at, if they are at higher levels.

[HunterOfJello]

Tier System for Classes (by JaronK) (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0)

Why each class is in its Tier (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5256.0)

If a person in this thread has disagreed with your idea of what a "Tier" means, then please go read those threads. If you've read part of them before but not all of it, then I highly encourage you to reread them in their entirety.

[awa]

your druid dies before he even knows hes in a fight.
even if he realizes hes in a fight hes panicked with fear
even if hes not panicked the dragon kills him before he can get close enough to touch him.
even if he touches him he cant beat the SR
even if he beats the SR the dragons contingency/ other appropriate spell saves it

SR 32, reach, level 19 sorcerer, fly speed 200, frightful presence dc 38

[Boci]

Shivering Touch. Next?

So in order: survive long enough to get within touch range, succeed in casting defensivly, hit touch AC, beast SR and roll higher than the dragon's dex with 3d6.


That is not Tier 0. Tier 0 transcends 'prepared caster who always has the right spells prepared'. However, we are straying from the OP.

You said tier 1 is mechanically unbeatable. ToS defines tier -1 as mechanically ubeatable, and tier 0 as "An effectively unbeatable build, though it can actually be beaten by the higher Tiers". There is still tier 0.5 before you reach tier 1.

[Rejakor]

Wizards, Clerics, and Druids are Tier 1 because they have the potential to be mechanically unbeatable, because they have the potential to have every perfect counter, yes even 'bat shark repellent'.

It is up to the individual build to take advantage of that or not, as they see fit.

Alright.

Make me a tier 1 build that always has the perfect counter.

I was using 'tier' in the Jaronk's tier list, i.e. without serious optimization, sense, not in the 'heavily optimized wizard' tier 1 sense. But i'm curious, now. I would really like to see this character and how hard it is to kill it with a gish build that would approximate the abilities used in that movie.

Any level, all books, no tier 0 (pun pun, omniscificer, you know what tier 0 is).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So in order: survive long enough to get within touch range, succeed in casting defensivly, hit touch AC, beast SR and roll higher than the dragon's dex with 3d6.Precisely. Because that is possible, a Level 5 character has the potential to beat a CR 26 encounter.

Think about that a moment. CR 26. At level 5. Even having the cajones to contemplate NOT running away, and the potential to back that decision up... yea, that's pretty Tier 1, considering CR +4 is 'should not be able to win', and this is CR + 21.



You said tier 1 is mechanically unbeatable. ToS defines tier -1 as mechanically ubeatable, and tier 0 as "An effectively unbeatable build, though it can actually be beaten by the higher Tiers". There is still tier 0.5 before you reach tier 1.

I was going by his original tier system. Wizard is Tier 1. Regardless of the build. Because the class itself has the highest potential of any of the playable classes in the game. That was what Tier 1 defined.

Now, compare that to ANY melee class.

The Druid has the potential to one-shot a Great Wyrm Red Dragon, if he can bypass SR. The Melee, on the other hand, needs to deal 660 damage in one round to match that.

The Druid has at least a 5% chance of winning this encounter. The Melee... doesn't. That's the difference between Tier 1 and Tier 3.

[Rejakor]

So in order: survive long enough to get within touch range, succeed in casting defensivly, hit touch AC, beast SR and roll higher than the dragon's dex with 3d6.

Well, in order, make yourself so sneaky a dragon with sorcerer casting can't see you, cast spectral hand, quicken true strike, cast shivering touch (and hope to god he isn't wearing something that makes him immune).



Also, Schneekey, your games must have a lot of fluff-only effects in them. Because that video had like 4 quickened spells in a round, off-turn actions, attacks in response to spells, spell stealing, etc. Unless there were lots of turns where one character's action was 'delay'.

[awa]

your druid cant beat the SR even on a 20, hes dead a dozen times over so he can't beat the dragon and you know what even a monk can be successfully eaten by a dragon.

[Boci]

Well, in order, make yourself so sneaky a dragon with sorcerer casting can't see you, cast spectral hand, quicken true strike, cast shivering touch (and hope to god he isn't wearing something that makes him immune).

Druid, doesn't have access to those spells. And upon checking Frostburn, doesn't have access to shivering touch either.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, Schneekey, your games must have a lot of fluff-only effects in them. Because that video had like 4 quickened spells in a round, off-turn actions, attacks in response to spells, spell stealing, etc. Unless there were lots of turns where one character's action was 'delay'.

Go take another look at Tome of Battle. Specifically, look at some of the things you can do in Setting Sun. Shifting Defense: you can move around when opponent misses. Then you can generate misses with things like Baffling Defense or simply AC stacking to make it hard to hit you. None of the characters had less than a 30 Dex, so their touch AC was pretty damn impressive.

Also the 'quickened' spells are more along the lines of maneuvers like Burning Blade which is affecting all attacks in a round, or volley type spells like Magic Missiles.


Druid, doesn't have access to those spells. And upon checking Frostburn, doesn't have access to shivering touch either.

Magical Training + Versatile Spellcaster. Gotta love it.

So yea. That's the difference between Tier 1 and Tier 3.

If nothing else, a Druid 5 can Wildshape in something to escape where the Dragon can't get to. No non-tier1 class can manage that.

At that point, surviving against a CR 26 encounter, even if it is with fleeing, is what I would call 'handling' the encounter.

[awa]

the red can shape change into anything the druid can shift into and hes still dead.

even a monk can be eaten while failing to run away.

my point is your argument that a tier one caster can never be beaten by any thing ever is clearly false.

a level 9001 warrior is still tier 6 and he would find the dragon a trivial threat

edit also a wild shape ranger could get eaten while trying to hide in an animal burrow just as easily as a druid

[Frozen_Feet]

Awa is right here. Even Tier 1s don't get to complete unbeatability against equal level opponents until level 7 or so, and don't get to planet-shattering invincibility/immortality deal until much later. Though in my opinion, the only character who was clearly high-tier in addition to high-level was the chick with wings. Most of the others survived a whole lot, but they didn't do much, besides beat at each other.

[Rejakor]

Well, the first fight I linked is more demonstrative in that regard than the second.

But if you assume the attack routines are 'turns' you do end up with a small laundry list of quite impressive abilities that should probably be part of any tier 1 fighter (along with the ability to defend against such kind of abilities).

Keep in mind by my reckoning the first fight I linked is between a level 11 and level 13 character, and the second fight I linked is mostly level 8's with a couple of 10ish and one 15 (the cleric chick - dweomerkeeper'd a fimbulwinter).


EDIT: Keep in mind, in my mind a tier 1 fighter isn't as flashy as a wizard - they just do what it says they do on the box - be able to adapt to any situation and survive really well. So they have better saves, more actions, scaling damage, scaling defense, and the ability to shift their abilities around to combat nearly any conceivable threat.

[awa]

its still not tier 1 becuase tier 1 has out of combat abilities. no matter how good at hitting things you are if the only kind of encounter you can win is combat your still not tier 1.

[Rejakor]

Well, we're talking about what a tier 1 fighter would look like *in combat*.

Of course for it to be tier 1 it needs to sprout lands and castles through sheer manly charisma, punch open holes between the planes, and serendipitously hear about stuff in taverns that is exactly what it needs to hear about like an alcohol fueled CoP.

[limejuicepowder]

its still not tier 1 becuase tier 1 has out of combat abilities. no matter how good at hitting things you are if the only kind of encounter you can win is combat your still not tier 1.

This is entirely true. However, the FF characters can definitely do the following:

- run really really fast. for a really really long time. My best guess would be a base speed of 120+, con scores of 20+, with the run and endurance feats.

- jump really really far and high, and not be bothered by falling hundreds of feat (and I'm not talking about shrugging off 15d6 like a high level fighter can, but take no damage at all).

- casually smash through walls, cut mountains, create craters, etc.

- most importantly, perform feats of dexterity and agility that exceed human understanding. Changing directions in midair, running up walls, etc.

- supernatural senses. The most basic example is this: never have I seen a FF character actually be as a disadvantage because of they can't see.

All of these combine to mean that even if they can't cast fly, invisibility, displacement, etc, they can overcome those things with martial skill. It would also give them plenty to do in non-combat situations.

If a martial character could actually do these things, I would put them in tier 1.

[Rejakor]

Mythology has lots of tier 1 stuff that wasn't necessarily a 'spell'.

Dudes hiding mountains under their shirts, stealing concepts, drinking rivers... the point is, this is DnD, it's fantastical, these are not normal humans, they can do stuff like that and it works fine in the setting. Sorcerers cast spells through force of will and their bloodline, fighters have trained their body until it's essentially a sci fi suit of biological super armour and can also do things that are essentially impossible because they are folding time and space like a good swordsmith folds steel.

[Arbane]

For your consideration, a Tier 1 vs Tier 1 battle. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFA2jxoExYY)

And another (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvmbKkmqbSM).

[enderlord99]

+1 to this

Blue indicates sarcasm. Green sometimes indicates parodical statements that are not, technically, sarcastic. This post is totally not self-referential.

EDIT: Some people don't like ToB or 4e because they make mundane characters closer in power to magic users.

:smallbiggrin:

[Emperor Tippy]

In D&D 3.5 a fighter can never (regardless of build) hit tier 1 or 2 without the use of UMD or similar to fake casting.

You can be the bestest, most badass fighter ever; capable of killing armies of millions in 6 seconds with only your bare hands, capable of shattering a castle wall with a punch, and you still don't pass tier 2.

Tier 3 is "I am incredibly capable in my field, potential as good or better than a tier 1 at this single facet of the game; but outside my field I am barely more capable than a commoner.". Tier 2 is "I am incredibly capable in a field or collection of fields that allow me to utterly shatter the game but I can only shatter the game in a small handful of ways.". Tier 1 is "I can shatter the game in more ways than you can imagine, I can solve any problem at any time with trivial effort.".

There is a reason I maintain that a Focused Capitalist wizard is no longer Tier 1, it becomes a Tier 2 character because it looses the supreme versatility that makes a tier 1 a tier 1.

----
Is a martial type class that can hang with casters at higher levels thematically possible? Yes. Is it mechanically possible in RAW D&D 3.5? No.

[Darius Kane]

This is how I want a T1 fighter to look like. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ6agLrSBYM)

[Rejakor]

The Tier 1 Fighter that i'm referring to is a theoretical class that does not exist in 3.5.

It could, but it currently does not.

[awa]

the problem is a "fighter" is supposed to be mundane warrior who use grit and skill to overcome his enemies. Any character capable of doing every thing needed to be tier 1 really ceases to be mundane.


A swordsmen capable of breaking an enchantment with a sword blow, teleporting, flying ect is a gish who just happens to be able to function in an anti magic field.

even with the drastically redefined definitions of mundane that exists within the one piece universe white beard is still a magic user.

[INoKnowNames]

the problem is a "fighter" is supposed to be mundane warrior who use grit and skill to overcome his enemies. Any character capable of doing every thing needed to be tier 1 really ceases to be mundane.

Exactly. And exactly why I feel like the Tier List Ranks needs to at least be renamed, since it gives people, such as those arguing about what it means to be Tier 1, the wrong impression.


A swordsmen capable of breaking an enchantment with a sword blow, teleporting, flying ect is a gish who just happens to be able to function in an anti magic field.

Those aren't particularly broken techs anyway, in my opinion. Arbane's videos do a much better Tier 1 demonstration than Whitebeard (who I assume part of your coment is based off of). Besides, Whitebeard's only a Tier 1 Fighter because of his Devil Fruit, which gives him the power over Earthquakes. So it's like a Fighter capable of using an Artifact. Really, a Warblade with an Artifact, what with a few flashes of swordsmanship skills being used before he uses the power of his fruit.

[awa]

im not saying their anything wrong with a gish being able to fly, teleport or cut through enchantments im just saying they are not mundane.

As for white beard i don't think hes actually tier one.
incredibly powerful certainly but so is an uber charger. If the problem can be solved by breaking something hes your man but that all hes good at.
He has no way to cross large distances easily, such as flight or teleportation.

he has no real way to gather information about things that are going to happen in the future or are happening far off.

heck he cant even swim

sorry misread that.

In general it is nearly impossible to depict a tier 1 character with a short clip becuase a tier character is defined by the raw number of options they have.

Most show tier 2 who are just as powerful but in a smaller number of ways

[Darius Kane]

even with the drastically redefined definitions of mundane that exists within the one piece universe white beard is still a magic user.
I dunno why it should matter that he has "magical powers", considering that I said that he's how I want a T1 fighter to fight, at the least. And if that's too much then at least that's how an Epic fighter should fight, IMO.

[Frozen_Feet]

Mythology has lots of tier 1 stuff that wasn't necessarily a 'spell'.


They still don't do enough. If one of them would've picked up that tower and thrown it, that would've been on the same level as the winged chick. Alas, they didn't. So even if they were in the same tier, they were pretty low level compared to her.

[Rejakor]

The sheer number of attacks they survived and threw, the interrupts, counters, and spammed lower level abilities are something you are overlooking in favour of a couple of big spells, performed slowly in comparison to the lightning fast attacks of the other characters.

Also note how with about twice the amount of time it took the winged character to shoot off her spells, the ninja blew up the entire top of the tower.

A hulking hurler could have thrown that tower, and hurlers are only t2 with a very liberal reading of t2.

The point is, a tier 1 melee guy looks different in combat than a tier 1 spell guy. Spell guy shoots off spells, melee guy is immune to stuff and can take 3 rounds of actions for every 1 round of stuff spell guy does. They both get interrupts, SoDs, SoSs, damage, and mobility, but each spell is by thematic necessity, bigger than each punch the melee guy throws. The thing is, the melee guy gets more punches, and can do as much stuff with them as the spell guy can do with spells.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Well, we're talking about what a tier 1 fighter would look like *in combat*.

Of course for it to be tier 1 it needs to sprout lands and castles through sheer manly charisma, punch open holes between the planes, and serendipitously hear about stuff in taverns that is exactly what it needs to hear about like an alcohol fueled CoP.
Hmmm.

So....

Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann?

[Saskia]

This is entirely true. However, the FF characters can definitely do the following:

- run really really fast. for a really really long time. My best guess would be a base speed of 120+, con scores of 20+, with the run and endurance feats.

- jump really really far and high, and not be bothered by falling hundreds of feat (and I'm not talking about shrugging off 15d6 like a high level fighter can, but take no damage at all).

- casually smash through walls, cut mountains, create craters, etc.

- most importantly, perform feats of dexterity and agility that exceed human understanding. Changing directions in midair, running up walls, etc.

- supernatural senses. The most basic example is this: never have I seen a FF character actually be as a disadvantage because of they can't see.

All of these combine to mean that even if they can't cast fly, invisibility, displacement, etc, they can overcome those things with martial skill. It would also give them plenty to do in non-combat situations.

If a martial character could actually do these things, I would put them in tier 1.

If shrugging off 15d6 fall damage that would kill an unprepared wizard doesn't count as standing up to a great challenge, then you have failed your fight with the dragon if he's hit you with his claw/breath weapon/spells even though you're alive and the dragon's not. A greataxe or greatsword fighter with a magic adamantine weapon can easily cut down thick stone walls, even at relatively low levels, and even without adamantine weaponry a wood or brick wall to a mid level fighter is like celophane. The Blind Fight and Blind Sight feats allow you to effectively combat and neutralize invisible foes, and ranged weapons allow you to dispatch most flying enemies, often by injuring their wings and forcing them into a ground fight but there's no D&D legislation that says ballistae and bows can't kill flying foes. Even wizards don't move at 120+ speed nor does the range of their spells usually emulate that sort of range. Also changing direction in midair is a feat that can be accomplished via the tumble skill. If tiers are about versatility, then being able to overcome something and still be in fighting shape should count, not being able to overcome that challenge and specifically use the resource of spell slots.

Anyway fighter isn't even meant to be versatile, it's meant to be a fighter, and a soldiery type is itself a highly specialized role, so even with a versatility metric that wasn't skewed such that only casters could be versatile through some arbitrary demand that HP loss is not a valid means of dealing with a problem, fighters would still rank low because feats and skill points are finite resources in a way that scrolls and spells are not.

[Frozen_Feet]

The sheer number of attacks they survived and threw, the interrupts, counters, and spammed lower level abilities are something you are overlooking in favour of a couple of big spells, performed slowly in comparison to the lightning fast attacks of the other characters.


Scale is still a factor, and none of the other characters, save (briefly) for the pink-haired chick with the lightsaber, are even near what the winged chick is doing. Hence, they're either lower level or lower tier.

[Spuddles]

To me, T1 has always meant "that's a nice campaign world, DM. Mind if I use magic to totally restructure the politics, culture, and economics with a few months of crafting and the wealth of a couple dungeons?"


Mythology has lots of tier 1 stuff that wasn't necessarily a 'spell'.

Dudes hiding mountains under their shirts, stealing concepts, drinking rivers... the point is, this is DnD, it's fantastical, these are not normal humans, they can do stuff like that and it works fine in the setting. Sorcerers cast spells through force of will and their bloodline, fighters have trained their body until it's essentially a sci fi suit of biological super armour and can also do things that are essentially impossible because they are folding time and space like a good swordsmith folds steel.

+1

I immediately thought of Norse mythology when I was reading on the first page about fighting the essence of disease, etc.

[The Dark Fiddler]

A small set of abilities consistent with this Mythender concept that give you a Tier 1 Fighter that no one will agree is a fighter anymore:

- Lv6: Challenge Fate. You can call to battle any extended effect or status condition that specifically applies to a target creature (e.g. you can do this for a disease, or a Ray of Enfeeblement effect, but not 'the sun is shining on me'. Wait for higher levels for that). It emerges as a creature appropriate to the severity of the condition - if slain, the condition is cured for that person.
- Lv10: Defeat the intangible. Now, instead of calling to battle an extended effect or condition, you can call to battle an abstract part of that being's existence. For instance, you could fight and kill someone's anger. Such things may recover given time. Yes, you can use this to buff (I defeated my weakness today...)
- Lv14: Banish the omnipresent. You can attack ambient environmental conditions to drive them away temporarily (1 hour). They retreat to a distance of 1000ft. Yes, with this you can put out the sun, at least for 1 hour in a 1000ft radius. You can also end a heatwave, stop a storm, etc.
- Lv18: Slay the ineffable. You may now target almost any aspects of the human condition and simply end them permanently. Doing so for an individual is generally feasible (i.e. the CR of the resultant encounter is no higher than 30, even for things like killing their ability to die). If you're feeling very gutsy, you can call out the cosmic concepts themselves and they must attend to do battle with you. Upon their defeat, the concept they represent is excised from your world. I recommend these not be anything close to CR-appropriate encounters, however.

Since nobody (but Spuddles) will, I'll tell you that this sounds absolutely awesome, even if you were being facetious when suggesting it

[limejuicepowder]

If shrugging off 15d6 fall damage that would kill an unprepared wizard doesn't count as standing up to a great challenge, then you have failed your fight with the dragon if he's hit you with his claw/breath weapon/spells even though you're alive and the dragon's not. A greataxe or greatsword fighter with a magic adamantine weapon can easily cut down thick stone walls, even at relatively low levels, and even without adamantine weaponry a wood or brick wall to a mid level fighter is like celophane. The Blind Fight and Blind Sight feats allow you to effectively combat and neutralize invisible foes, and ranged weapons allow you to dispatch most flying enemies, often by injuring their wings and forcing them into a ground fight but there's no D&D legislation that says ballistae and bows can't kill flying foes. Even wizards don't move at 120+ speed nor does the range of their spells usually emulate that sort of range. Also changing direction in midair is a feat that can be accomplished via the tumble skill. If tiers are about versatility, then being able to overcome something and still be in fighting shape should count, not being able to overcome that challenge and specifically use the resource of spell slots.

Anyway fighter isn't even meant to be versatile, it's meant to be a fighter, and a soldiery type is itself a highly specialized role, so even with a versatility metric that wasn't skewed such that only casters could be versatile through some arbitrary demand that HP loss is not a valid means of dealing with a problem, fighters would still rank low because feats and skill points are finite resources in a way that scrolls and spells are not.

I'm not sure if I follow you whole post, but assuming I do.....that's kind of my point. For a martial character to be tier 1 (or even 2), they would need to be able to do all of those things without spending real resources. As it stands, a martial character can probably be to optimized to do 1 or 2 things on that list, but that's basically all they will do (see Jumplomancer), at the expense of everything else. That's why they're tier 3, at best.

Spellcasters have immense versatility built right in to the class; simply by being that class they have tremendous options. Martial classes need to pick one or two things they want to do and work on those things at the exclusion of all others from level 1 (note also the list of things they pick from to be good at is very small, while spellcasters can pick anything in the entire game).

[NichG]

Since nobody (but Spuddles) will, I'll tell you that this sounds absolutely awesome, even if you were being facetious when suggesting it

Actually I wasn't being facetious (well, maybe about the levels where you get things...), but I didn't have the time when I wrote it to put actual hard mechanics in. I actually played a martial character who had that Lv6 ability (though he was always a little hesitant to use it ever since he cut the fate of someone with a curse that had turned out to have been put on him by Hera, and she sent an avatar to deal with the problem). IMC I'd probably make this a 5 level PrC that's hard to get into before Lv15 (so the abilities come a bit closer together, rather than being really stretched out), but I think it works at least as inspiration for ways martial characters can have caster-like versatility.

Of course, the one point it really fails at is that this fellow can summon all these ills, but the abilities doesn't necessarily help him defeat them once he has them there...

[Saskia]

I'm not sure if I follow you whole post, but assuming I do.....that's kind of my point. For a martial character to be tier 1 (or even 2), they would need to be able to do all of those things without spending real resources. As it stands, a martial character can probably be to optimized to do 1 or 2 things on that list, but that's basically all they will do (see Jumplomancer), at the expense of everything else. That's why they're tier 3, at best.

Spellcasters have immense versatility built right in to the class; simply by being that class they have tremendous options. Martial classes need to pick one or two things they want to do and work on those things at the exclusion of all others from level 1 (note also the list of things they pick from to be good at is very small, while spellcasters can pick anything in the entire game).


Yeah, that was kind of rambly, sorry about that. I see what you're saying now though, it's not the ability for a class to theoretically be able to handle a situation but the ability of a single character, so having 500 feat choices to potentially handle any situation doesn't matter for a fighter. That makes a lot more sense, thanks!

[Rejakor]

Scale is still a factor, and none of the other characters, save (briefly) for the pink-haired chick with the lightsaber, are even near what the winged chick is doing. Hence, they're either lower level or lower tier.

Scale is not the only factor.


Speed is another factor, and versatility.

Combat does not show the entirety of the versatility of a character. It very specifically shows their best attacks and defenses, and big, flashy, wide area spells are NOT the strongest choice against enemies who (clearly) have both evasion and mettle and great saving throws.

What they ARE doing is executing a bunch of very strong attacks very very quickly. That those attacks are punches and not GIGANT FIREBALL doesn't mean that they are lower tier. Even the winged chick's big spells (and note how she doesn't do anything other than occasionally cast a big spell - while the rest of her team is taking hits to defend her) don't appreciably hurt the enemy party except by cleverness (uses windstorm domain to immobilize them, then hits them with a multiDMM'd mailman blast spell). If we're talking in terms of effectiveness, only that last thing, which is probably some stupid ****ing sanctified spell or epic spell or other [DM Fiat] crap, appreciably is out of tier with the others. She doesn't cause the enemy party to get staggered the way the swiftblade's combos with the other 2 do earlier in the fight.

And as for 'well lava would have killed them but the cleric stopped it' - the characters interrupted each other's attempts to fix the lava problem, and that is why they were going to take 20d6 each(which the cleric stopped).