Something doesn't make sense here.

[ReaderAt2046]

Ok, a big plot point is that the coordinates the Sapphire Guard held for Girard's Gate were the wrong ones, but how is that possible? Soon was there when the gates were sealed in the first place. He would have known that the coordinates Girard gave him were false. Did Girard use some kind of Mind Twist to change Soon's memories of the gate? Is that even possible?

[Morithias]

Ok, a big plot point is that the coordinates the Sapphire Guard held for Girard's Gate were the wrong ones, but how is that possible? Soon was there when the gates were sealed in the first place. He would have known that the coordinates Girard gave him were false. Did Girard use some kind of Mind Twist to change Soon's memories of the gate? Is that even possible?

Paladins don't get Knowledge (geography) as a class skill.

That's mainly all I can think of in terms of the comic's mechanics, and it's the answer I would give you if I was the DM.

I'm sure someone else can come up with a more plausible answer.

[prism6691]

Interesting point. It could be a few things. He was there when the gates were sealed. The making of the gates came afterward and was done separately by each member of the former party. Its possible the gates were moved to some limited extent during this gate process. We know the gates can't be moved now. But possibly in between the sealed rifts and the gates being made that may have not been entirely true.

[Douglas]

I imagine it's some combination of Soon not knowing enough about geography/mapping/navigation to be able to double check the coordinates and Soon trusting his teammate enough to not think a double check might be necessary.

[1chapelcredit]

I imagine it's some combination of Soon not knowing enough about geography/mapping/navigation to be able to double check the coordinates and Soon trusting his teammate enough to not think a double check might be necessary.

I think you guys are absolutely right. No doubt if Soon had gone to the gate himself, he could have pulled an Ackbar well before Girard's message was triggered. But just looking at a set of coordinates or a random X on a map of the desert, he was far less likely to recognize that anything was amiss.

[Tebryn]

Ok, a big plot point is that the coordinates the Sapphire Guard held for Girard's Gate were the wrong ones, but how is that possible? Soon was there when the gates were sealed in the first place. He would have known that the coordinates Girard gave him were false. Did Girard use some kind of Mind Twist to change Soon's memories of the gate? Is that even possible?

Have you tried to map a desert? Or even find that spot you were at years in the past in an environment that shifts around? It's not like they had the latitude and longitude of the place. He's also a Paladin, he's going to trust his companions because that's the Lawful Good we're supposed to believe is at play here. Also as others have said, Knowledge (Geography) and Survival are not class skills of the Paladin.

[factotum]

It's made pretty clear in the comic that Girard had some ranger levels, so he was probably the only one who'd studied geography or mapmaking in any way. The same would apply in real life--if I was to drop you in the middle of Dartmoor with a map but no idea of your actual location then you'd probably not be able to find your way out, and Dartmoor is considerably smaller than the desert we're talking about here!

[FujinAkari]

What are the latitude / longitude coordinates of your house? Do you know? I'd wager you don't, not even approximate... Soon certainly doesn't have any better understanding of global mapping coordinates than the rest of us :P

[Man on Fire]

Maybe he knew the coordinates were wrong but didn't care, because he had sworn to never approach the gates anyway? hell, he might have known, pretend he didn't and let these coordinates for his paladins, so if any of them had gone rogue and steal it, he would wander around empty desert.

[Boogastreehouse]

This has been discussed before, I think.

Soon made Girard responsible for all mapping duties. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html)

When Soon was at Girard's Gate, he didn't know what the coordinates were. Girard later gave him some coordinates, and Soon just assumed they were the right ones. I'm pretty sure it's just that simple.

[North_Ranger]

Yeah, I think it's as simple as that: Soon was there, but didn't know the exact coordinates. He wasn't the party cartographer; Girard was. So it was easy for Girard to pull a fast one on him. Especially so if Soon, being a paladin, did not expect Girard to fool him so.

And no, I don't know the coordinates of my home either...

[GunnDancer]

I strongly suspect that Soon just decided he wouldn't inform the Sapphire Guard of where the gate was beyond the coordinates given to him by Girard.

So even though Soon KNOWS the rift is at Windy Canyon, he had no reason to tell the paladins the name of the spot. And since none of the other paladins would dare go check out the gate, he had no reason to question the coordinates period.

But yeah... no clue what the longitude/latitude of my house is so if someone who had cartography skills said "Oh, the longitude/latitude of your house is 33 degrees by 47 degrees" I'd just nod my head and smile.

[Dr.Epic]

Ok, a big plot point is that the coordinates the Sapphire Guard held for Girard's Gate were the wrong ones, but how is that possible? Soon was there when the gates were sealed in the first place. He would have known that the coordinates Girard gave him were false. Did Girard use some kind of Mind Twist to change Soon's memories of the gate? Is that even possible?

Just because he was there doesn't mean he can locate the place on a map. Do you know the exact geographical location you are right now in terms of longitude and latitude on the globe?

[asphias]

also, remember that OOTS doesn´t have the internet, and google maps.

while nowadays its rather easy to know where in a country you are going, i'd say that back in the day, if you didn't like reading a map, then not knowing exactly where you are is not strange especially if you've delegated the duty to someone else.

at least, before i had unlimited access to the internet, i know i never knew were my parents took me on holidays. "mountains in France" is not specific enough, and though i looked at local maps for hiking, those weren't big enough to tell me where in France i was:smallwink:.

[snikrept]

Soon also may not have bothered to check.

:haley: A ruse that relies on the target's innate acceptance of the rules presented to him? Against a league of paladins? Easy money.



It occurs to me that even if Soon had discovered he was deceived at some point, he'd still sworn an oath not to contact Girard again for any reason, even to get the right coords. Not sure how Hinjo would avoid hearing about it if Soon knew, though.

[Dr.Epic]

also, remember that OOTS doesn´t have the internet, and google maps.

They have epic inside.:smallwink:

[King of Nowhere]

I know with some passable approximation where my home is and where i go in vacationbecause i like looking at maps and getting an idea. however, I would never be able to pinpoint a location i've been to once in the middle of a featureless desert.

However, now that I think about it, there is something that don't work. girard expected soon to come looking for the gate. and soon knew that the gate was in windy ccanyon, and even if he had no idea on where the canyon was, he would have had no problem asking around. And once he was in the canyon, he may have remembered the path - big maybe here. He probably would not have been able to remember exactly that at some point there was a passage where now is plain rock, but he could have brought some cleric with true sight. So soon may have been able too find the gate again if he had come looking for it in person. But since the name windy canyon was not passed to the paladin gang, they are unable to locate the gate without soon. I just don't understand how girard expected it to fool soon that way.
the best explanation I can think of is that soon never heard the name windy canyon in the first place. without that name, he only knew the gate was in a canyon complex somewhere in the desert.
Still it should have been possible for soon to locate it. there shouldn't be too many canyon complexes of that complexity in the desert. And only one of them has some divination-blocking spell going on.

Long story short: even if soon did not knew the coordinates, the informations he had - that the gate was in a canyon complex in the desert, and roughly a path into that complex - would have been enough for him to track down the gate, with time, some lackeys and a few gather information checks.

[factotum]

Depends how close he was to the canyon, though. This is a big, big desert we're talking--it occupies half of the Western Continent, after all--so there might be an awful lot of windy canyons around the place. I'm pretty sure it was stated that Nale and Tarquin took years finding the place, and think of the amount of resources they could bring to bear on the project; Soon would not be able to do that halfway across the world from his base of operations.

[GunnDancer]

Well again, I stand by my point that the only paladin that actually knew the location of the gate as being Windy Canyon was Soon himself. Given that he is a paladin and has sworn to leave Girard's gate alone, he'd have no reason to tell anyone the name of the canyon itself.

So if the only thing that gets passed down is the coordinates themselves, that's all the paladins would have to go off of.

[fictionfan]

It is possible that the canyon was not always called Windy Canyon. There a whole family of illusionists and a epic founder with there main line of defense being misdirection. They might do a big spell to misdirect or rename.

[Blue Lantern]

This has been discussed before, I think.

Soon made Girard responsible for all mapping duties. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html)

When Soon was at Girard's Gate, he didn't know what the coordinates were. Girard later gave him some coordinates, and Soon just assumed they were the right ones. I'm pretty sure it's just that simple.

Seconded, Occam's time.

[King of Nowhere]

It is possible that the canyon was not always called Windy Canyon. There a whole family of illusionists and a epic founder with there main line of defense being misdirection. They might do a big spell to misdirect or rename.


Well again, I stand by my point that the only paladin that actually knew the location of the gate as being Windy Canyon was Soon himself. Given that he is a paladin and has sworn to leave Girard's gate alone, he'd have no reason to tell anyone the name of the canyon itself.

So if the only thing that gets passed down is the coordinates themselves, that's all the paladins would have to go off of.

I agree with both of you. with soon dead, the sapphire guard has no other informations except the coordinates, and no way of locating the gate.
I just say I find strange that girard believed he could fool soon (remember, he was expecting soon to come knocking at his door in less than 3 months!) that way.

The idea that the canyon was just another nameless place and was named in the last 60 years would explain that. soon would have been able to track the gate only if he could ask around for windy canyon

[Kornaki]

As far as blowing up Soon, Girard is an illusionist. Soon would probably walk right to that spot feeling around for the entrance of the invisible canyon if he actually went

[Morquard]

Just look how hard it was for Haley to get information on Tyrania or whatever the name of that country was. Actually she didn't get the information. And that was just 5 years or so ago.

Now imagine trying to get information on some place in the middle of the desert that no one even cares about that might have changed it's name 40 times by then.

Also it's possible the gate is not even in the canyon, that that's just where the Draketooth HQ is. The gate might be somewhat outside.

Or... you know. Wizard. Epic. Even if Girard was an Illusionist he still has tons of "normal" wizard spells he can prepare when he has to. Maybe that canyon wasn't there before and he made it.

That way when Soon would swing by he'd say "No, we don't have to search here, the gate wasn't near any canyon".

[Winter]

Now imagine trying to get information on some place in the middle of the desert that no one even cares about that might have changed it's name 40 times by then.

Don't want to ruin your fun but places no one cares about usually do not change their name even once (aka getting one in the first place). :smallbiggrin:

[GunnDancer]

I agree with both of you. with soon dead, the sapphire guard has no other informations except the coordinates, and no way of locating the gate.
I just say I find strange that girard believed he could fool soon (remember, he was expecting soon to come knocking at his door in less than 3 months!) that way.

The idea that the canyon was just another nameless place and was named in the last 60 years would explain that. soon would have been able to track the gate only if he could ask around for windy canyon

You know, I've been thinking about this for a bit now and after pondering for a while I wouldn't be at ALL surprised to learn two things:

That Girard swapped the coordinates while Soon wasn't around because at this point he basically hates him. (Okay, maybe not HATES, but is mad enough at him to try and blow him up)

and secondly and probably more importantly

He KNEW that Soon would probably expect him to use illusions to hide the gate/canyon... hell Soon knew he would because that is how Shojo knew (remember, in the crayon drawings he talks about how Soon would use paladins to guard the gate, Girard illusions, etc. etc.) So, Soon would go to those coordinates and not see anything and then he'd cast detect magic or true seeing and find the rune and inadvertantly blow himself up, EXACTLY as the OoTS did.

They went to the coordinates, said "Hmm, that Girard guy is a master of illusions, let's use our detect magic, true seeing, etc. to find the gate... oh look! Magical rune symbol thingy!" *KABLAAM!*

So I predict that is how that would have gone down if Soon had gone looking himself or sent some paladins to find it.

[Clistenes]

I have wondered...maybe you can move the gates if they are small enough and bound to a portable object? Soon's gate was bound to a gem, so maybe he could move the gem to new location when needed; I doubt the gate was always located in Azure City's throne room, somebody would have noticed it ages ago (with the courtiers being obliterated by tendrils and all that, you know...).

[factotum]

I have wondered...maybe you can move the gates if they are small enough and bound to a portable object? Soon's gate was bound to a gem, so maybe he could move the gem to new location when needed; I doubt the gate was always located in Azure City's throne room, somebody would have noticed it ages ago (with the courtiers being obliterated by tendrils and all that, you know...).

It was made clear that the tower containing the throne room was built specifically to be able to contain the gemstone and the gate. The rift itself was a couple of hundred feet up in empty air when it was discovered, as the right-hand section of the third panel in #276 shows, so there wouldn't have been any courtiers taken out by tendrils--it was too high up!

[AshleyOliver]

But what are the major advantages of it? These are only built for the purpose of rigid support.

[Clistenes]

It was made clear that the tower containing the throne room was built specifically to be able to contain the gemstone and the gate. The rift itself was a couple of hundred feet up in empty air when it was discovered, as the right-hand section of the third panel in #276 shows, so there wouldn't have been any courtiers taken out by tendrils--it was too high up!

I dunno...Azure's castle and its throne room had existed for long time before the gem gate was created, and we don't know the reach of the Snarl's tendrils...did they really build a castle around the rift without noticing it? Also, Soon's wife perceived there was something weird before being killed; did the many court mages and high priest visiting and/or working in the throne room really never noticed the rift? I would expect them all to have their magic sensing spells "on" while in the throne room (searching for spies, scrying sensors, imposters, charmed people...etc.).

[Mike Havran]

I dunno...Azure's castle and its throne room had existed for long time before the gem gate was create, and we don't know the reach of the Snarl's tendrils...did they really build a castle around the rift without noticing it? Also, Soon's wife perceived there was something weird before being killed; did the many court mages and high priest visiting and/or working in the throne room really never noticed the rift? I would expect them all to have their magic sensing spells "on" while in the throne room (searching for spies, scrying sensors, imposters, charmed people...etc.).

No, it hadn't. The castle and tower and throne room were all build after the riff had been sealed. I recommend you to read strip #411 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html) again

[Clistenes]

No, it hadn't. The castle and tower and throne room were all build after the riff had been sealed. I recommend you to read strip #411 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html) again

True. I was confused by the fact that Soon was a paladin from Azure City who served its temporal ruler before learning about the rifts.

I guess the rifts/gates are immovable, then.

[Bulldog Psion]

The only problem is, that although Soon might not be able to find his way to the coordinates, he would definitely know the difference between a huge, flat plain of sand and Windy Canyon. So if he was there, he would know the plain where Girard's message was left wasn't the right spot, just by virtue of topography.

He might not be able to find Windy Canyon, but he'd have no reason to scrounge around out in that open plain.

[Belril Duskwalk]

The only problem is, that although Soon might not be able to find his way to the coordinates, he would definitely know the difference between a huge, flat plain of sand and Windy Canyon. So if he was there, he would know the plain where Girard's message was left wasn't the right spot, just by virtue of topography.

He might not be able to find Windy Canyon, but he'd have no reason to scrounge around out in that open plain.

Epic. Illusionist. Also, by virtue of being an Epic Illusionist: Epic. Wizard. If Girard wanted to hide the entirety of Windy Canyon in the flat expanse where he told Soon the Gate was, he almost certainly would have the magic to make it appear so and Soon would have good reason to believe such illusions to be in place.

If you are looking for something hidden by an epic level illusionist and your only clue is the coordinates you were given by a person you trust, you assume the coordinates are right and your eyes are wrong, because a full-power illusionist has more than enough magic to trick your eyes.

Of course, Soon should also have seriously considered that a Chaotic individual that does not like him is not a person to trust, but sometimes Lawful Good people make stupid assumptions concerning the honesty of others.

[blazinghand]

True. I was confused by the fact that Soon was a paladin from Azure City who served its temporal ruler before learning about the rifts.

I guess the rifts/gates are immovable, then.

There's a depiction of the rift pre-gate as well on comic #267 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) high in the sky.

[ReaderAt2046]

I guess the rifts/gates are immovable, then.

They definitely are. Hinjo says so in panel 8: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html)