Versus #7!

[Cranthis]

I'm going to give you guys two 3.5 classes, sometimes drastically different, sometimes very similar. I want to hear your opinions on who would win between the two, and why. The only rule is "Don't use tiers as your only means of explanation". This isn't any sort of contest, it is just a side by side comparison of classes.

Today's versus: Paladin vs Knight

Assume both are level 6 (this will not always be the case)
Assume both are Mounted Combat focused.
Use your own logic, and your own builds if you want, and explain which side you think wins.

This thread is for gathering general opinions, and is not intended to copy anything similar that may have been done already, excluding my own posts.

[Venusaur]

I think the Paladin has the advantage in any mounted character contest vs. the Knight. The special mount is a huge advantage, especially if you get an alternate one. An archery focused Paladin could probably just get a hippogriff mount and fly around shooting the knight, with the knight helpless to do anything but fire back. The Paladin also gets several useful spells, and battle blessing is a fantastic feat.

[toapat]

Paladin.

here are the reasons:

Knight, although more stable and predictable, has these disadvantages with running mounted combat as compared to paladin:

1: Does not have a Special Mount like paladin
2: Does not have spellcasting like paladin
3: Has a much smaller list of alternate options then the paladin (Crystal Keep's Base Class Index has no ACFs or subsitution levels)
4: Is a dedicated tank, with a worse skill list then paladin
5: Does not have Spellcasting
6: Can Not Kill

as i said, Paladin vs Ranger is a real question

[Kelb_Panthera]

At level 6 the two are pretty close to even, but I'm putting my money down for the pally.

If nothing else, then the fact that a paladin can grab a wand, or even just a scroll, of shield other and pool his and his mount's hp, means he has dramatically more staying power than the knight.

Simply put, to drop the knight you have to kill either the knight or his mount, to stop the paladin with shield other you have to kill both.

[toapat]

At level 6 the two are pretty close to even, but I'm putting my money down for the pally.

If nothing else, then the fact that a paladin can grab a wand, or even just a scroll, of shield other and pool his and his mount's hp, means he has dramatically more staying power than the knight.

Simply put, to drop the knight you have to kill either the knight or his mount, to stop the paladin with shield other you have to kill both.

using Full optimization for the level, a CG planar Elfpaladin of Freedom, Champion of Mystra, would outright destroy a knight. you simply cant optimize knights, there are no options barring taking something like Knight Champion. and most of those PrCs wont be having any real effect at this level.

sure, the paladin has 3d10+3d8 +6x conmod, but a Unicorn mount, as well as ranged smiting and the immunity to compulsion effects, renders alot of the Knight already irrelevant. the Paladin's Celestial unicorn mount puts the knight's mundane horse (if he has even purchased a horse by this point) to shame.

Build overview:

Lily
Race: Elf
Levels: 6 Paladin
Attributes: Str: 8 Dex: 20 Con: 12 Int: 8 Wis: 16 Cha: 8
HP: 3d10+3 + 3d8+3 (40 HP)

Elf Paladin of Freedom 1: Point blank shot
Paladin 2:
Paladin 3: Serenity, Immunity to Compulsion Effects
Mystic Fire Knight 4: Extra spell slots
Mystic Fire Knight 5, Elf paladin 5: Unicorn Mount, smite buff
Mystic Fire Knight 6, Planar Paladin 6: Rapid Shot, celestial mount

[Draz74]

If mounted-combat focus is required, I think it should be taken for granted that the Knight has the Wild Cohort feat ...

It's probably still not as good as the Paladin's mount, but it's a whole lot better than just a standard warhorse, and prevents the Paladin from just cherry-picking the Knight's mount with a single attack.

I still think the Paladin is a stronger class. Spellcasting, ACFs/racial sub levels, Divine Grace ...

And in a 1v1, the Paladin wins pretty easily even vs. Wild Cohort. The Knight's best two class features -- Test of Mettle and Bulwark of Defense -- hardly matter in 1v1 combat.

I'd actually question whether Battle Blessing is worth taking at this level. Mounted builds are pretty feat-starved at low levels, and the Paladin doesn't have very many spells/day (or any spells above Level 1) at this point. If he does take Battle Blessing, he better also purchase a nice horde of Pearls of Power 1.

[docnessuno]

Considering both builds can make for competent mini-uberchargers, i think the victory would be a matter of engagement distance and initiative. Still a slight advantage in favor of the pally.

[LordBlades]

I'd give that to the pally. Better mount (even vs. wild cohort) and spells (which can become wizard spells with a bit of investment, although at level 6 it's probably a toss-up utility-wise between Nerveskitter and Rhino's Rush). Also, even in the context of this challenge, you can make a decent mounted archer out of Paladin.

[Kane0]

Assuming the whole alignment and conduct thing doesn't get in the way, I'd say Paladin.

Mount gives more power and flexibility and spells offer neat little things that the Knight can't really produce a equivalent for.

In terms of other class abilities though, they can turn out fairly even. The Knights' lockdown capability shouldn't be laughed at either, even if it isn't as good as say a Crusader.

So in a party a Knight would have an easier time fitting in than the Paladin, but the Paladin has the versatility to always get the same (or similar) position in the party every time.

[Wise Green Bean]

Some classes are designed to support the party. The bard is the famous example, with most of his abilities focused on making his buddies more effective. But really, the knight is the same. The knight's claim to fame is its ability to make others attack him. And that's worthless in one-on-one combat.

So yeah, paladin.

[Gwendol]

Knight. At this low level the spellcasting isn't doing the paladin much good. The knight gets bonus feats and abilities which for this particular challenge is more valuable than the paladins class features (if the knight isn't evil... etc).

Knight 6:
Fighting challenge +1
Shield block +1
Bulwark of defence (this is the big one)
Armor mastery (medium)
Test of mettle (kind of pointless here)
Vigilant defender (good against tumbling paladins (!))
Shield ally

Feats:
EWP: Spiked chain (human bonus)
Power attack (level 1)
Ride by attack (level 3)
Spirited charge (level 5 bonus)
Wild cohort (level 6)

If flaws are allowed I suggest taking combat reflexes.

Compare with:
Mounted combat (human bonus)
Power attack (level 1)
Ride by attack (level 3)
Spirited charge (level 6)

Limited paladin spellcasting + lots of useless class features + Special Mount

For sake of comparison let's say that both use a heavy warhorse.

Paladin special mount: +2 HD, +4 NA, +1 STR, INT 6, bunch of special stuff
Wild cohort: +3 HD, +3 NA, +1 STR/DEX, Evasion (+3 HD grants a feat)

I'd say it's fairly clear the knight comes out on top. He hasn't dumped DEX, and so can win initiative. Charge with lance, then draw the chain and lock the paladin down.

EDIT: For some reason I read this as being a head to head challenge, then realized that it may not be so. If not, what is the requirement for "winning"?

[toapat]

Knight. At this low level the spellcasting isn't doing the paladin much good. The knight gets bonus feats and abilities which for this particular challenge is more valuable than the paladins class features (if the knight isn't evil... etc).

Knight 6:
Fighting challenge +1
Shield block +1
Bulwark of defence (this is the big one)
Armor mastery (medium)
Test of mettle (kind of pointless here)
Vigilant defender (good against tumbling paladins (!))
Shield ally

Feats:
EWP: Spiked chain (human bonus)
Power attack (level 1)
Ride by attack (level 3)
Spirited charge (level 5 bonus)
Wild cohort (level 6)

If flaws are allowed I suggest taking combat reflexes.

Compare with:
Mounted combat (human bonus)
Power attack (level 1)
Ride by attack (level 3)
Spirited charge (level 6)

Limited paladin spellcasting + lots of useless class features + Special Mount

For sake of comparison let's say that both use a heavy warhorse.

Paladin special mount: +2 HD, +4 NA, +1 STR, INT 6, bunch of special stuff
Wild cohort: +3 HD, +3 NA, +1 STR/DEX, Evasion (+3 HD grants a feat)

I'd say it's fairly clear the knight comes out on top. He hasn't dumped DEX, and so can win initiative. Charge with lance, then draw the chain and lock the paladin down.

You apparently havent looked at the Paladin spell list. a Lvl 6 paladin with Charging smite and Rhino Rush will be able to do +36 damage on a charge at this point, nearly 3/4s of a Knight's HP at this level. Without a mount, or feats. Power Attack alone can be invested enough to, again, without a mount, get the +12 damage to wipe out all of the Knight's From Dice HP.

Wild Cohort actually has no limitations to being declared onto the paladin mount, Spiked Chains are entirely useless on a mounted combat build, because the only mounted weapon worth using are ranged or lances.

Innitive: Paladin wins. You cant make a Knight viable at range, if you need the innitive fight, paladin can just take Improved Initive on an Elf Paladin of Freedom build.

[Gwendol]

Smite still requires the target to be evil, no?

Wild cohort is applied to a wild animal, not a magical beast, so no the feat doesn't work that way.

The chain is good for close combat, but dropping the feat means the knight can pick up another one, like improved initiative.

Why isn't the knight viable at range? It's certainly not an efficient way to do combat, but his DEX can be higher than that of the paladin without sacrifying STR or CON.

[toapat]

Smite still requires the target to be evil, no?

Wild cohort is applied to a wild animal, not a magical beast, so no the feat doesn't work that way.

The chain is good for close combat, but dropping the feat means the knight can pick up another one, like improved initiative.

Why isn't the knight viable at range? It's certainly not an efficient way to do combat, but his DEX can be higher than that of the paladin without sacrifying STR or CON.

the Knight, like every melee class other then barbarian, has to use a mental attribute, in this case, Charisma. he needs a higher investment then paladin ever does in wisdom when playing paladin properly with printed material, so saying "paladin has lower dex" is completely wrong.

The Knight's class features have 3 huge problems upto this point against a paladin:
They are compulsion effects, and thus useless against a CG paladin
They are Melee only effects, at which a paladin doesnt need to be in melee range if they decide they dont want to ever be. comparitively, a Knight can not benefit from their class features at range other then a +1/+1 effect.

and Strength, with a bow? one thing DDO does well is showing how damage calculations actually effect gameplay. If you dont have precision damage, or bonus damage, its not worth bothering at all with bows, because strength doesnt scale with a bow like it does with melee weapons.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, I agree with Toapat's analysis. Paladins are better at charging thanks to their spells. IIRC, they also have Lion's Pounce as an option, which may or may not work with charging smite, but it can be pretty devastating if it does.

[toapat]

Yeah, I agree with Toapat's analysis. Paladins are better at charging thanks to their spells. IIRC, they also have Lion's Pounce as an option, which may or may not work with charging smite, but it can be pretty devastating if it does.

actually, i was disregarding Lion's pounce, considering smiting doesnt work without my homebrew on full attacks (because of stupid Designers)

[eggs]

Plus if we're talking level 6 PVP, the Paladin's mount could be things like a 8 HD Dire Wolf, a 6HD Healer-in-a-can Unicorn, a Flying/Blindsensing Dire Bat or a climbing/webbing/tremorsensing Large Monstrous Spider.

In many cases, it's very close to just adding another character to the field.

[Gwendol]

In this case, Test of Mettle is even more useless than usual, and pointless to start with (there is only one to attack, after all). That means CHA does not have to be high, and WIS is a dump stat for knights. Don't get me wrong; I like the paladin, but at this level even the knight will typically outfight him.

I wasn't looking at corner cases for the mount, just going with an equal animal base and building on either Paladin special mount level or Wild Cohort advancement. If considering a heavy warhorse the Wild Cohort variety comes out on top with more HD, although both gain a feat.

[toapat]

In this case, Test of Mettle is even more useless than usual, and pointless to start with (there is only one to attack, after all). That means CHA does not have to be high, and WIS is a dump stat for knights. Don't get me wrong; I like the paladin, but at this level even the knight will typically outfight him.

I wasn't looking at corner cases for the mount, just going with an equal animal base and building on either Paladin special mount level or Wild Cohort advancement. If considering a heavy warhorse the Wild Cohort variety comes out on top with more HD, although both gain a feat.

except, thats not the case. the Entire Knights Challenge ability requires you have high Charisma, for little benefit, where as a lvl 3 paladin will be getting everything except health from Wisdom.

Spells improve versatility alot, and then there is the fact that Wild Cohort can be applied to a pet, then trained into a mount, then declared as the special mount, to get a bonus of +5 HD, +7 AC, +3 Str

[eggs]

I wasn't looking at corner cases for the mount, just going with an equal animal base and building on either Paladin special mount level or Wild Cohort advancement. If considering a heavy warhorse the Wild Cohort variety comes out on top with more HD, although both gain a feat.
These are upgrades available in the core rules, which involve no investment on the Paladin's part. If we're assuming the Paladin's using the horse, we're assuming the Paladin's sandbagging.

And if spells are in the mix, all Paladins have access to higher damage or higher damage multipliers through spells like Rhino's Rush or Devastating Smite and extra layers of defenses like generally high saves + Resurgence for a reroll against effects. Casting/gishing-focused Paladins can have enough spells to last most of a day's fights, and can pick things like Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge Person (sharable with the Mount), Swift Resurgence or Swift Divine Sacrifice (again, shared with the mount); these can be supplemented with wands of Rhino's Rush and so forth, which would give the Knight trouble.

If the assumptions shift to tight mental stats AND no spell-trigger items, the paladin is still able to deal with those to a certain degree via the Holy Warrior ACF (trades spells for feats). Using HW with Domain feats still gives the paladin some powerful tricks, like Animal Devotion's +4 Strength/Flight/Con-damaging attack or Earth Devotion's Immediate action Difficult terrain creation/negation (break other characters' charges, tumbles and 5-ft steps; ignore conditions that would deny them to the paladin). Both of those are to give multiple daily uses without any decent mental stats.

The Paladin has a lot of resources to draw on. The knight has very few - especially outside a party setting. Unless a player just refuses to open a book beside the PHB, the Paladin's advantages look pretty overwhelming.

[Gwendol]

except, thats not the case. the Entire Knights Challenge ability requires you have high Charisma, for little benefit, where as a lvl 3 paladin will be getting everything except health from Wisdom.

Spells improve versatility alot, and then there is the fact that Wild Cohort can be applied to a pet, then trained into a mount, then declared as the special mount, to get a bonus of +5 HD, +7 AC, +3 Str

Except for smite evil, divine grace, lay on hands, and turn undead, which all depends on CHA. A knight however is completely viable with CHA of 10, and a vial of eagle's splendor for those rare occasions when Test of Mettle can be useful.
Spells are fantastic, but at level 6 the paladin doesn't have many.

As for Wild Cohort/Special Mount, you might just as well end up with a DM that rules you get both instead. Which isn't bad either, just different.

[Gwendol]

These are upgrades available in the core rules, which involve no investment on the Paladin's part. If we're assuming the Paladin's using the horse, we're assuming the Paladin's sandbagging.

And if spells are in the mix, all Paladins have access to higher damage or higher damage multipliers through spells like Rhino's Rush or Devastating Smite and extra layers of defenses like generally high saves + Resurgence for a reroll against effects. Casting/gishing-focused Paladins can have enough spells to last most of a day's fights, and can pick things like Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge Person (sharable with the Mount), Swift Resurgence or Swift Divine Sacrifice (again, shared with the mount); these can be supplemented with wands of Rhino's Rush and so forth, which would give the Knight trouble.

If the assumptions shift to tight mental stats AND no spell-trigger items, the paladin is still able to deal with those to a certain degree via the Holy Warrior ACF (trades spells for feats). Using HW with Domain feats still gives the paladin some powerful tricks, like Animal Devotion's +4 Strength/Flight/Con-damaging attack or Earth Devotion's Immediate action Difficult terrain creation/negation (break other characters' charges, tumbles and 5-ft steps; ignore conditions that would deny them to the paladin). Both of those are to give multiple daily uses without any decent mental stats.

The Paladin has a lot of resources to draw on. The knight has very few - especially outside a party setting. Unless a player just refuses to open a book beside the PHB, the Paladin's advantages look pretty overwhelming.

Yes, as we progress in level, the paladin is going to become more versatile, no doubt about it. The OP asked about level 6, and this is my assessment. I'm sure there can be builds that tilt the outcome this way or that, but for vanilla classes I think I have a strong case.

[toapat]

Except for smite evil, divine grace, lay on hands, and turn undead, which all depends on CHA. A knight however is completely viable with CHA of 10, and a vial of eagle's splendor for those rare occasions when Test of Mettle can be useful.
Spells are fantastic, but at level 6 the paladin doesn't have many.

As for Wild Cohort/Special Mount, you might just as well end up with a DM that rules you get both instead. Which isn't bad either, just different.

Except, that you completely ignore my point. Knights need a high charisma because their only class features need charisma to have duration or effect. A paladin just needs Con and Wisdom after lvl 3, at which point they get everything from it except HP and Innitive.


Yes, as we progress in level, the paladin is going to become more versatile, no doubt about it. The OP asked about level 6, and this is my assessment. I'm sure there can be builds that tilt the outcome this way or that, but for vanilla classes I think I have a strong case.

that does not make your assessment correct at all. Core +PHB2, the knight is better, except that Charging smite is still better then the entire knight in that scenario. just because you have a higher starting floor doesnt mean that the paladin's ruthless tier climb doesnt automatically outmode you

[eggs]

Yes, as we progress in level, the paladin is going to become more versatile, no doubt about it. The OP asked about level 6, and this is my assessment.
That was my level 6 assessment as well.

Even assuming the characters can only afford good Strength, decent Con and non-negative Charisma, a level 6 Paladin build could look like: Warforged Paladin (2nd & 3rd level racial subs), Dire Wolf mount, Mounted Combat, Animal Devotion, Earth Devotion. When it charges, it does the same damage as the Knight (wand of Battle Blessing; if pretending differing abilities with magic items are irrelevant, it can swap spellcasting and power attack for Spirited Charge for parity); when it does Battlefield control, it does it more flexibly than the knight (Earth Devotion doesn't require creatures to start their turns nearby to screw with them, and can be used to counter other creatures' battlefield control); when it makes saves, it makes them better than the Knight (Constitution applies to Fort and Wisdom, and it goes with a good Fort progression); and when the paladin sits on a mount, it sits on a stronger mount than the Knight's.

So starting at the same stat baseline, I think the Paladin can come out pretty soundly ahead. And when ability scores are raised, the Paladin gains more from them than the Knight (they open spellcasting, better save bonuses, more turning for the Paladin, and just increased DCs for the Knight).

If "Vanilla" means no effort on either build's part, I'll agree. The PHB doesn't give the Paladin very nice things. But since we're talking about this in an optimization context, I think we can accept the possibility that a player will crack open books like the DMG, Complete Champion or Champions of Valor and see what their Paladin can do.

[Gwendol]

Higher point buy for the knight means more strength and dex. Like the barbarian the knight can put the points where it counts. I really don't think they will be much separated powerwise. It will come down to a roll of the dice.

[Venusaur]

Except for smite evil, divine grace, lay on hands, and turn undead, which all depends on CHA. A knight however is completely viable with CHA of 10, and a vial of eagle's splendor for those rare occasions when Test of Mettle can be useful.
Spells are fantastic, but at level 6 the paladin doesn't have many.

As for Wild Cohort/Special Mount, you might just as well end up with a DM that rules you get both instead. Which isn't bad either, just different.

Serenity lets you shift pretty much everything on CHA to WIS.

[toapat]

Serenity lets you shift pretty much everything on CHA to WIS.

and considering how much that everything is, that is wisdom to everything but Damage and HP

[Kane0]

And that's worthless in one-on-one combat.


I still find it funny how everyone thinks these two classes are trying to beat each other into a pulp in PvP combat. Is anyone else comparing how they perform comparatively in the party or is it just me?

Edit: Doesn't matter, carry on!

[Gwendol]

Serenity lets you shift pretty much everything on CHA to WIS.

And that's close to a wasted feat in this context. I'm prepared to game it out if anyone's up for it?

[Gwendol]

I still find it funny how everyone thinks these two classes are trying to beat each other into a pulp in PvP combat. Is anyone else comparing how they perform comparatively in the party or is it just me?

Edit: Doesn't matter, carry on!

I asked about what the "winning" should look like some posts back but haven't got an answer yet. :-)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Higher point buy for the knight means more strength and dex. Like the barbarian the knight can put the points where it counts. I really don't think they will be much separated powerwise. It will come down to a roll of the dice.

2 questions:

1) why is the knight getting a higher PB? It's a patently unfair bit of favoritism whatever the reason. Unless you meant a higher point buy for both meant the knight could take better use of it?

2) One second level scroll effectively pools the paladin and his mount's hp into one figure, thanks to share spell. Using the warhorse example that's a total of 6d10+6X pally's con, plus another 6d8+6X horse's con. You can break the pooling by seperating the paladin from his mount by more than 5ft, but until you do, you're effectively dealing with 12HD worth of hp's for him. What can the knight do to counter or match this?

[toapat]

I asked about what the "winning" should look like some posts back but haven't got an answer yet. :-)

its not even a remote comparison, every advantage, barring getting things to hit you and a small number of bonus feats for mounted combat, is to the paladin.


2 questions:

1) why is the knight getting a higher PB? It's a patently unfair bit of favoritism whatever the reason. Unless you meant a higher point buy for both meant the knight could take better use of it?

2) One second level scroll effectively pools the paladin and his mount's hp into one figure, thanks to share spell. Using the warhorse example that's a total of 6d10+6X pally's con, plus another 6d8+6X horse's con. You can break the pooling by seperating the paladin from his mount by more than 5ft, but until you do, you're effectively dealing with 12HD worth of hp's for him. What can the knight do to counter or match this?

1: he means (because of a non-existant Knowledge (The Paladin) check) that a Paladin has more attributes into which the character needs to invest, yielding lower attribute scores

2: Braced Guisarme

[Lans]

The strongest paladin mount at this level is from sandstorm and has 9hd. Some kind of dinosaur wombat thing

[toapat]

The strongest paladin mount at this level is from sandstorm and has 9hd. Some kind of dinosaur wombat thing

A Diprotodon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diprotodon), 9hd, Trample, Improved claw.

and it has no EPL Penalty at that

[Kelb_Panthera]

its not even a remote comparison, every advantage, barring getting things to hit you and a small number of bonus feats for mounted combat, is to the paladin.



1: he means (because of a non-existant Knowledge (The Paladin) check) that a Paladin has more attributes into which the character needs to invest, yielding lower attribute scores

2: Braced Guisarme

That's a laughably bad idea.

It depends on Winning the initiative Counting on the paladin charging, when seeing someone ready for a charge is patently obvious, or otherwise taking the action he's readied against To successfully trip a character with very similar stats The mount to continue moving if he does manage to unhorse the paladin.

Got a better suggestion?

[toapat]

That's a laughably bad idea.

It depends on Winning the initiative Counting on the paladin charging, when seeing someone ready for a charge is patently obvious, or otherwise taking the action he's readied against To successfully trip a character with very similar stats The mount to continue moving if he does manage to unhorse the paladin.

Got a better suggestion?

No, but then, there is basically no advantages for the Knight, i just named a Pole arm i know of that is designed for unhorsing people

[eggs]

That's a laughably bad idea.
What if he has Steadfast Boots?

[toapat]

What if he has Steadfast Boots?

I realized that the Guisarm doesnt have brace as a property, besides that, a Halberd would be the choice for the combat.

doesnt make the Knight suck any less against the paladin

[Kelb_Panthera]

What if he has Steadfast Boots?

If you mean the knight, then he'll have an easier time avoiding the counter-trip. If you mean the paladin, then it negates the bonus from imp trip that the knight presumably has, making it even less likely to succeed and making that an even worse idea.

[Cranthis]

Versus #8 is out btw.

[Gwendol]

The diprotodon looks silly, and is comparably slow. It does have a huge HP pool though (and it looks like an editing error to allow it as a mount for a 5HD paladin). Like most other animals it suffers from 5' reach, which means the rider (and mount) will suffer an AoO for closing in on an opponent with reach.

In terms of usefullness to the party I guess it comes down to the type of campaign. Featuring undead and/or other mindless creatures the knight has a hard time making ToM work at all, and will have to rely on lock-down strategies.
Fighting hordes of minions, the knight should be able to make some use of his mind-affecting abilities and so can give his team tactical options the paladin simply cannot.
In terms of fighting efficiency when mounted the advantage goes to the paladin, unless we're limited to PHB, PHB II, on behalf of the special mount.
On foot I'd say the knight edges out ahead.