Epic Level Dual Wielding Swordsman

[megadranix]

Hi guys. First off, I'd like to emphasize that I'm an old 2e player who stopped a few years back. A few friends of mine started a D&D 3.5e epic level campaign where everyone starts at level 20. They asked me to join since they were short on people. I had some free time anyway so I thought it would be fun.

I'm still trying to make the transition to 3.5e (I know 4e is out but my friends prefer 3.5e for some reason). We haven't started the game yet so I couldn't observe them or ask them for tips yet. So far I've read the core books and some supplementary books but I'm rather having difficulty coming up with a template for my desired character.

Essentially, I'd like to create a swordsman that dual wields long swords. Someone who can dish out damage in quick succession, then back off just as quickly to avoid getting squashed by enemies. A friend of mine is willing to lend me some of his supplemental books for research but I don't know really where to start.

If you guys can just give me a few tips where to start off, it would be really great. Even if its just the concept of a character, I'd appreciate it.

[rockdeworld]

Emperor Tippy would probably be a good person to ask about this, since he has a lot of experience with epic levels. On the other hand, he might suggest you take epic spellcasting and get swords later.

Since it sounds to me like you haven't played 3.5 yet (and I have not played 2.0), I'll give you a quick run-down.

First, dual-wielding longswords doesn't work in 3.5. I mean it simply does not work with the rules. If you dual-wield longswords, you take -4 to hit (with both hands), you deal only Str damage with one hand and 1/2 Str with the other (as opposed to 2x Str when dual-wielding), and you don't even have a good weapon to boot.

As I understand it, in 2.0 you had to be somewhat careful in order to survive to level 20. Well, playing at epic levels in 3.5 is similar. If you start with a really weak character, you can get squashed by level-appropriate enemies without their even trying hard. So you might not want to use exactly that setup.

Now that said, let's work on what you actually want your character to do.

Essentially, I'd like <snip> Someone who can dish out damage in quick succession, then back off just as quickly to avoid getting squashed by enemies.
There is a build ready-made for your character concept that is a straight fighter, and badass to boot. Here's a link. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick)

Edit: I posted that so you'd have something to look at while I write the second part, and so I could be the first poster :smallbiggrin:

Here's the second half.

Second, Spring Attack is a feat that allows you to move in and out of enemy range each turn. And it's terrible. You need +14 tumble to make that move without being straight-up attacked while doing it, and then you can only move at half speed. So you had better hope "enemy range" is only 5' (hint: at epic levels, it isn't), otherwise you'll be stuck getting smacked around next turn, feat or no feat.

If you don't like the idea of using an axe with one hand, an unarmed strike, tripping enemies, and then hitting them 4 more times when they're down to deal a ton of damage in one round, meanwhile dodging their attacks and making them look foolish... Then you could play a rogue or scout.

Both rogues and scouts get extra damage on their attacks under certain conditions, which makes using two weapons at once worthwhile. For rogues, you have to be flanking the enemy or deny them their dexterity (flanking is more reliable). For scouts, you have to charge in, which also means you have to invest a level, feat, or item into getting Pounce, or else you won't be able to make a full attack and get all your damage in. Scouts also get only half as much bonus damage as rogues (5d6 vs 10d6), so you can guess which is better.

Here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871666/The_3.5_Rogue_Handbook&post_num=3#338408930) are some sample rogue builds.

Here is a sample scout build:
Reforged Melee Mobile Striker
Warforged Scout 4/Fighter 2/Highland Stalker 6/Tempest 5/Reforged 3
Taken Scout 4/Fighter 2/Highland Stalker 4/Tempest 5/Highland Stalker 5-6/Reforged 3. +18 BAB, 3d6 Skirmish damage, attacking with both weapons (at no penalty) on a Spring Attack, and being able to select three targets (or hit the same target six times) on a Spring Attack make for an effective offensive combination, while Elusive Target helps keep enemies from using leap attack/shock trooper power attack on you. Scouting skills are passable, and you get a few Scout goodies.

a couple other versions of this are Warforged Scout 4/Fighter 2/Highland Stalker 8/Swashbuckler 3/Reforged 3 or Warforged Scout 4/Fighter 2/Highland Stalker 10/Reforged 3. Neither of these would use Two-Weapon Fighting.

Level BAB Special Abilities (Feats)
1 +0 Skirmish (+1d6), trapfinding (Mithral Body => Rapid Blitz (Reforged 3))
2 +1 Battle fortitude +1, uncanny dodge
3 +2 Fast movement +10 ft., skirmish (+1d6, +1 AC), trackless step (Weapon Finesse)
4 +3 Bonus feat (Track [Scout])
5 +4 Bonus feat (Dodge [Fighter])
6 +5 Bonus feat (Mobility, Spring Attack [Fighter])
7 +6 Mountain stride
8 +7 Skirmish (+2d6, +1 AC)
9 +8 Swift tracker (Two-Weapon Fighting)
10 +9 Skirmish (+2d6, +2 AC)
11 +10 Two-weapon defense +1
12 +11 Ambidexterity (-3/-1) (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting)
13 +12 Tempest defense +2, two-weapon versatility
14 +13 Ambidexterity (-2/-0)
15 +14 Tempest defense +3, two-weapon spring attack Bounding Assault
16 +15 Surefooted
17 +16 Skirmish (+3d6, +2 AC)
18 +16 Extroverted, natural healing (Elusive Target)
19 +17 Reforged insight, magical healing
20 +18 Embrace emotion, final reforging

Now for the epic levels:
If you go with Jack B Quick, you'll have 4 iterative attacks in addition to your off-hand attacks, trip attacks, etc. That's better than if you picked a build with 15 Base Attack Bonus or less (which are none one of the builds I posted), because it would only get 3 attacks, not matter how high you get. That's because in epic levels, you only get Epic BAB, which doesn't increase your number of attacks.

Epic monsters hurt a lot, and in a lot of ways. Do not be tricked by feats like Epic Toughness (which, in fairness, is better than regular Toughness). Epic enemies will target your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves like the monsters they are, and lots of hitpoints won't matter when your soul is sucked into a gem by a demilich. Since your DM is running an Epic campaign, he will presumably not pull out the cheesy tactics, but you should be prepared for tough stuff nonetheless. The Epic Level Handbook is filled with it.

At this level, virtually every skill can be replaced by a spell. So can most feats. Even fighters can be replaced by spells at this level. If you want to play a sword user at epic level, you've got only a few things going for you:
1. Consistency. You won't disappear after a certain number of rounds, like a Gate'd in servant, and you won't try to stab your allies in the back after they've used you as a meatshield (presumably). Unfortunately, even this can be replaced with Epic Spellcasting, but if your DM is a sane person he won't allow the players to get away with that.
2. Availability. By this I mean that you are easier to come by than one of those Epic Spellcasting minions (and they get really good - Epic Spellcasting wasn't well thought out from a gameplay perspective). Presumably also because the DM won't allow them.
3. Damage. You can take it (when all else fails and the enemies actually go for hit point damage), and you can dish it out in spades. Yes, a certain spellcaster build known as The Mailman can deal more at one time, but you can keep it up for rounds on end. You are the target for buffing spells like Haste and Polymorph. You are the person who keeps the squishy spellcasters from dying by stopping the enemies from getting within 30 feet of them. Whether you do this by soaking up enemy damage or killing them before they can even get close is up to you.

Everything else is the territory of spellcasters. The people on these boards have a saying: the druid is a better fighter than the fighter. The cleric is a better rogue than the rogue. The wizard is a better everything than everything else (except cleric or druid). They're the first tier classes, and fighters are the 5th (I kid you not (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)).

Other people will be able to advise you better on what classes and feats to take at 21st level and afterwards. My only advice is: for Pete's sake stay away from the crappy feats that give you +1 to a single stat. Eesh.

And have fun!

[rweird]

Okay, your new to 3.5, some things you should know. This forum tries to make powerful characters, and Two Weapon Fighting (TWF or 2WF for short) in generally considered weaker that fighting with a two handed weapon (THF or 2HF for short). That said however, it still can work.

One thing that will help you greatly is the Tome of Battle (ToB for short) source book, the Tiger Claw discipline, it is based on TWF. I'd recommend something like Warblade 20, though dipping would be helpful, secondary build is Warblade 1/Spirit Lion Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/Warblade +18, when you level up, take warblade 1, then progress as Barbarian, Crusader, or caster of some sort (maybe wizard, then some gish [Caster/Warrior dual progression class]). There probably is a more powerful build than this, though this way, when you are TWF, you can pull of a time stand Still (ToB, Diamond Mind discipline, 9th level), with Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip (Tiger Claw, 8th) as a boost to go with it to full attack twice, if you're in a whirling frenzy, you'll have 16 attacks with that, if at least 8 hit, you'll do something like an extra 20d6 from Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip. Using Raging Mongoose (Tiger Claw 8th) as a boost with time stand still would give you 24 attacks in a round.

Using two long swords would give you -4 on all attacks unless you take Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (Complete Adventurer), which would lessen the penalty to -2. If you find a way to get extra hands (Girallions Bless spell, cleric 3, Sorcerer/Wizard 3, Druid 3 gives you extra hands, if you could get one of your allies to cast that on you) means that taking Power Attack feats might be helpful because you'd have decent Power Attack multipliers, though that and TWF would be really feat intensive.

Finding a way to make your attacks touch attacks would be useful or else you may suffer from the TWF swarm of miss problem, so you being able to make all those attacks won't matter. Remember, 24 attacks won't do you a bit of good if you can't hit with them.

[rockdeworld]

Finding a way to make your attacks touch attacks would be useful or else you may suffer from the TWF swarm of miss problem, so you being able to make all those attacks won't matter. Remember, 24 attacks won't do you a bit of good if you can't hit with them.
A custom magic item could do the trick, since an Amulet of continuous Wraithstrike costs only 12,000gp. It would make all your attacks into touch attacks.
Combine that with the (arguable) Goggles of continuous True Strike for 8,000gp to give all your attacks +20 to hit (or get a single item: Goggles of continuous Wraithstrike and True Strike for only 16,000gp at most) and you're gold.

[rweird]

A custom magic item could do the trick, since an Amulet of continuous Wraithstrike costs only 12,000gp. It would make all your attacks into touch attacks.
Combine that with the (arguable) Goggles of continuous True Strike for 8,000gp to give all your attacks +20 to hit (or get a single item: Goggles of continuous Wraithstrike and True Strike for only 16,000gp at most) and you're gold.

True, though that requires DM approval, and no DM I know of would allow that, and if it is, that would be a really cheesy option. WotC ruled that a item of true striking would be like a +20 sword in value (400,000ish GP).

Don't do this except in the most crazy high OP games where Wizards Chain-Gate Solars (Solars are powerful angels that have the power to summon other Solars, and can cast as a 20th level cleric, meaning that you can summon one, that summons another, that summons another, etc) to power there epic spells (Epic Spellcasting is a really powerful thing that should be banned by all sane DMs, an can be made really easy to use by having people contribute spell slots to your spells).

You should find the power level of your game so you don't come with a double 9th (has 9th level spells from two classes) build from the playground while everyone else is like Rogue 20, Ranger 20, Monk 10/Sorcerer 10, etc.

[docnessuno]

WotC ruled that a item of true striking would be like a +20 sword in value (400,000ish GP)..

Funny that in 3.0 a weapon with exactly that effect was priced at a couple thousands gp (and technically if it's not updated it's still 3.5 legal)

Back on topic, to be effective at high levels some spellcasting and/or some really neat class abilities are pretty much required. You could take a look here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256307) for three different builds i made a couple weeks ago for a friend, all focused around dex-based TWF.

[rweird]

Funny that in 3.0 a weapon with exactly that effect was priced at a couple thousands gp (and technically if it's not updated it's still 3.5 legal)

Back on topic, to be effective at high levels some spellcasting and/or some really neat class abilities are pretty much required. You could take a look here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256307) for three different builds i made a couple weeks ago for a friend, all focused around dex-based TWF.

I know that 3.0 had the Quiver of True Striking, though a later article said that the widget of true strike is like a +20 weapon. Typical WotC, but still, an item that broken is something you should think twice about before using.

[Eugenides]

First things first: look up how WotC built Drizzt, their flagship dual-wielding individual. Make sure you learn the build very well, see everything they did in it.



Then make sure you do nothing even remotely similar to it.

[starship1]

Would Jack B. Quik with the feat "Epic combat reflexes" work?

he uses a sword and an axe if I remember correctly.

[rockdeworld]

Would Jack B. Quik with the feat "Epic combat reflexes" work?

he uses a sword and an axe if I remember correctly.
I think you mean "Improved Combat Reflexes," and I can say this: that should probably not be the first feat you take. For reference, it requires Dex 21 (not undoable), and it gives a unlimited AoOs.

The problem is the level. Look at the CR 20 creatures:
Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm)
Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor)
Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend)
The weakest of those, the Pit Fiend, can create a Fear Aura with Will save DC 27. The others are worse, and that's just to fight them. You're expected to fight 4 of those per day. Jack B Quick is neither immune to fear, nor can he make a DC 27 Will save without a ton of help. Therefore, the first few feats you want are dedicated to survival.

It would be nice if you could somehow make a fortitude save in place of the other two. Sadly I can't find any, so perhaps Jack isn't the best build to start with. An epic rogue (or anyone with a good reflex save) can take Dextrous Fortitude and Dextrous Will to use their reflex in place of the other two saves, providing further support for that concept.

On the other hand, you can ask your party wizard to create an epic spell that gives you a permanent boost to all your saves. That would be a proper use of epic spellcasting, which sane DMs should and really must allow for a party to survive epic levels.

To reinforce the point: At CR 21 (which a level 21 party is expected to fight 4 times a day), we have the Chichimec (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#chichimec), who has 435 HP and permanently drains 2 Charisma (1 on a successful fort save, so probably 1 against you) on a full attack. How much Charisma does a normal fighter have?
Also CR 21 is the Mu Spore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/muSpore.htm), which deals 20d6 every 1d4 rounds on a failed DC 36 Reflex save, in addition to its other attacks.
For a non-epic example: The CR 21 Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm), who has both Charm Monster (Will DC 21) and Maze (Will DC 26), the latter of which his tactics section says he will use.

To put it all in perspective: Jack B Quick will probably have something like the following stats and saves at level 20 (with items):
Str 28 (12 base + 5 levels + 6 Item + 5 manual), Dex 22 (16 base + 6 item), Con 20 (14 base + 6 item), Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 8
Fortitude: 12 (levels) + 5 (Con) + 5 (Resistance) = +22
Reflex: 6 (levels) + 6 (Ref) + 5 (Resistance) = +17
Will: 6 (levels) - 1 (Wis) + 5 (Resistance) = +10

You can build him differently, but the point is that either way you'll be failing those weak saves about 50% or more of the time. And failure means death, so don't fail.