Gishing up in an all-Warforged party. [3.5]

[fishbrains]

A friend of mine recently invited me to play in an Eberron game. There are two other players, both who already decided they will be playing as a Warforged Artificer and a Psiforged Psion. I figured another Warforged with a top tier class (Wizard for me) was in order. I've never done a gish build, and it seems like a very fun role to fill. I am hoping you guys can help me out.

I want to maintain as much Wizard casting as possible while getting the earliest possible entry to Abjurant Champion. My problem is I'm unsure where to split the levels. The only other (nearly) full casting PrC I've found that also has full BAB is the Eldritch Knight. Are there any others I am unaware of? Eldritch Knight requires the ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells and Abjurant Champion requires a BAB of 5. What's the most efficient way to do this? :smallconfused: We're starting at level 7. So there should be plenty of room to work with here.

And for me second class I have no clue what to do. I was thinking Warblade at first, but I don't know if ToB is allowed yet. The general rule seems to be any source (with DM permission). I've already received the ok for my concept and PrC classes. If no Warblade, I am probably going to go for Barbarian to grab pounce via Lion Totem. I briefly considered Duskblade as the alternative class to have spellcasting from two classes and a few class features, but the real upside to the class (Arcane Channeling) will take a pretty hefty sink into it to make worthwhile.

Anyway, any help you guys can offer would be wonderful. :smallbiggrin: I know I have seen several thread dedicated to this sort of thing in the past. I just can't seem to find them.

[Flickerdart]

Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) is another take on full BAB + spells. It's from Eberron, too.

Generally gish builds take a level of Spellsword, too.

[Fable Wright]

Have you considered Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4)? Full BAB, almost full casting, and even a few class features, over Eldritch Knight. Plus, if you grab the Militia (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-guide-to-faerun--22/militia--1948/) feat (refluffing it and stripping the regional prerequisites), you don't actually need to dip into Fighter or Warblade at all. You could either go Wizard 5/Knight Phantom 2 if Militia is allowed, or Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Knight Phantom 1.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can google some gish handbooks and get a better idea of what you should be doing. Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) will give you a Fighter bonus feat in place of Scribe Scroll and your Wizard bonus feats. There are a few fairly standard Gish builds, aimed at getting 9th level spells and a +16 BAB by 20th level. Wizard 6/ Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 9/ Abjurant Champion 5 is fairly strong, but it's not my favorite. As a general rule, when using Abjurant Champion you want to be good-aligned to be able to cast (Greater) Luminous Armor from BoED, the only armor-bonus spell to benefit from the Abjurant Armor class feature.

For Wizard, I'd prefer Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ (Wizard PrC) 4/ Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) 4. That Wizard PrC can be anything that increases your Wizard casting at all four levels and gives at least +2 BAB out of the four levels. Some good choices include Incantatrix (overpowered), Divine Oracle, Paragnostic Apostle, and Master Specialist (Transmuter) if you can get Ability Enhancer. You could also get more EK/KP if you want a higher BAB, but strong class features would be a better choice. You can get the feat prerequisites for Incantatrix and Divine Oracle via the Otyugh Hole or Frog God's Fane in CS for gold instead of spending feats on them.

Get the Dungeoncrasher ACF for Fighter and learn Melf's Unicorn Arrow in PH2, otherwise there are a few alternatives, some race-specific. Human Paragon or Elf Paragon 3/ Fighter or Crusader 1/ Wizard 2 (not in that order) into Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion is extremely good. Replacing Fighter 2/ Wizard 4 with Crusader 1/ Wizard 4/ Crusader or Warblade 1 works, or even go Warblade 1/ Crusader 1/ Wizard 4 for Idiot Crusader shenanigans.

[Rejakor]

I personally hate gishing as a wizard because of how long it takes to get into any of the good gish classes.

All I can say is, completely ignore everything people say about BAB. BAB is worthless. It's only purpose is to get you into Abjurant Champion. That's it. Divine Power (gain via Arcane Disciple, other methods) is so much better than wasting feats and levels getting BAB. You don't need 16 BAB at level 20. Get your spells a level earlier instead. Triple Strike and other spells will give you free attacks, and free damage, and free to-hit - you don't actually need the other stuff.


What you DO want, though, is a way to freely persist some buff spells. (depending on optimization levels of your game). Incantatrix and some other ways will do it. Also you want to have a decent AC, so find a way to add your primary casting stat to AC (easiest for a sorc or bardchord, still doable for a wizard but harder). If you can maintain Exalted Good alignment, the sanctified spell Luminous Armour really helps, as does being an Abjurant Champion with a DM who houserules mage armour to be abjuration. But don't forget alter self can be used to scrounge up some good natural armour (and natural attacks, too), and then you use spiderskin or something to add a bonus to that natty armour, then you stack a deflection spell on top of it and you're now basically untouchable.

Oh, and polymorph alone makes you a gish. So if you add more spells + polymorph it becomes pretty obscene pretty quickly.

If you have spare feats, you can always become a tripper or an ubercharger, but don't worry, with stuff like Greater Mighty Wallop the damage stacks up quick enough in any case.

[eggs]

I want to maintain as much Wizard casting as possible while getting the earliest possible entry to Abjurant Champion. My problem is I'm unsure where to split the levels. The only other (nearly) full casting PrC I've found that also has full BAB is the Eldritch Knight. Are there any others I am unaware of?
Race makes some of these less relevant, but just because I think it would be useful to keep it all together somewhere for my own selfish use:

Full BA, Full Casting (usually just dips):

Abjurant Champion 5 (CM) - The ideal.
Spellsword 1 (CW) - Easy access, reduced spell failure.
Dragonslayer 1 (Drac) - Requires 2 feats that are common prerequisites elsewhere, grants big piles of proficiencies.
Bladesinger 1 (CW) - Locks too many feats and racial choices to be a useful option in most cases.
Thrall of Demogorgon 1 (BoVD) - Two feat requirements. At least they're not rare prereqs for other things (Willing Deformity, Thrall to Demon).
Thrall of Orcus 1 (BoVD) - Less frequently-shared prerequisites than Thrall of Demogorgon.

Full BA, 1 level casting loss:

Eldritch Knight 10 - Dry, but easy to enter and gets a feat (9/10 casting)
Knight Phantom 10 (5N (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4)) - Armored casting, interesting if not powerful class features, costs a feat.
Cyran Avenger 5 (5N (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050707b&page=2)) - Easy qualification for rangers, decent charisma-based smite-like effect. (4/5 casting)
Impure Prince 5 (MoE) - Guaranteed symbionts, lesser fortification and ranger-like skills. Feat tax for entry. (4/5 casting)
Swiftblade 3 (web (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)) - Painful feat requirements, but commonly shared with other classes (eg. Spelldancer, Dragonslayer) and three levels get some nice bonuses like auto-quickens and passive miss chances. Odds are that you'll be taking more than three levels though.
Jade Phoenix Mage 5 (ToB) - Honestly, you'd probably have lost another level before even starting, because maneuvers without recovery mechanics are a drag. And you'll probably be taking more than just 5 levels.

3/4 BA, full Casting:

Sacred Exorcist 10 (CDiv) - Turn Undead, alignment restriction, higher levels only
Ruathar 3 (RotW) - Easy access for any build
Master Harper 10 (Web (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20030604a)) - High skill and feat requirements, but solid rangery features.
Halfling Whistler 10 (Web (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20061121a)) - Easy Halfling access, good skills, dry but occasionally useful SLAs
Raumathari Battlemage 4 (UE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030413c)) - Nice gishy class features, but low HD. Frankly outdated.
Unseen Seer 10 (CM) - Easy entry for skillmonkey skirmishers/sneak attackers, basically requires Practiced Spellcaster.
Master of the Yuirwood 10 (UE) - A couple feat taxes, and Elf-only, but pretty accessible entry. Mechanics tied deeply to a FR region specifically.
Geomancer 10 (CDiv) - Has a terrible reputation, but actually has some really nice gish features (extra attacks, blindsense, armored casting, limited pounce). The trick is satisfying the divine casting requirement without wasting levels. Southern Magician is easiest.


I'm sure there are more, especially in the latter two groups, but I'm not able to dig around splatbooks right now.

[Fable Wright]

I personally hate gishing as a wizard because of how long it takes to get into any of the good gish classes.

All I can say is, completely ignore everything people say about BAB. BAB is worthless. It's only purpose is to get you into Abjurant Champion. That's it. Divine Power (gain via Arcane Disciple, other methods) is so much better than wasting feats and levels getting BAB. You don't need 16 BAB at level 20. Get your spells a level earlier instead. Triple Strike and other spells will give you free attacks, and free damage, and free to-hit - you don't actually need the other stuff.


What you DO want, though, is a way to freely persist some buff spells. (depending on optimization levels of your game). Incantatrix and some other ways will do it. Also you want to have a decent AC, so find a way to add your primary casting stat to AC (easiest for a sorc or bardchord, still doable for a wizard but harder). If you can maintain Exalted Good alignment, the sanctified spell Luminous Armour really helps, as does being an Abjurant Champion with a DM who houserules mage armour to be abjuration. But don't forget alter self can be used to scrounge up some good natural armour (and natural attacks, too), and then you use spiderskin or something to add a bonus to that natty armour, then you stack a deflection spell on top of it and you're now basically untouchable.

Oh, and polymorph alone makes you a gish. So if you add more spells + polymorph it becomes pretty obscene pretty quickly.

If you have spare feats, you can always become a tripper or an ubercharger, but don't worry, with stuff like Greater Mighty Wallop the damage stacks up quick enough in any case.

I don't get this argument at all. Really, I don't. I understand that caster levels are important, but I dislike doing this for 3 reasons.

1. This requires a rather high optimization level to be viable. Let's see what you want to bring to the table, here...
Incantatrix, one of the top 3 most broken PrCs of all time (next to Dweomer Keeper and Planar Shepard)
Polymorph and Alter Self. Really? If you're touching this, you're already breaking the game.
Persist tricks. Oh, if you're already Persisting Divine Power, what harm could it do to add on Heroics for Power Attack, and maybe a Wraithstrike? Persistant Cloud of Knives with Fell Drain?
2. It makes you extremely vulnerable to dispels. Normal Gish? He could still hold his own in combat. He has his BAB and swift action spells. This guy? He already used his daily Persists, and he can no longer fight his way out of a paper bag. Sure, he has more spell slots left over to do battlefield control with, but the Gish can still do his job of being in melee combat, in addition to the battlefield control he holds in reserve.
3. It's not fun. It's not innovative. It's just a Wizard going "I can do everything!", rather than someone who actually trained to do combat. It's a roleplaying choice, but if I'm playing a Gish, I'd rather be the Wizard who developed the skills to hold his own in combat, even without magic, than the Wizard who just throws up magic to do his fighting for him.

Doing this is Theoretical Optimization at most tables. This isn't practical optimization. This is plugging "Be good at melee combat" into "????" in the old formula of
Step 1. Break the game.
Step 2. ????
Step 3. Profit!


That said, it is the most efficient way of being good in melee combat as a Wizard. For reasons related to this, I like making builds with unique class features that Wizards pretending to be fighters can't emulate, such as using Swiftblade builds, Psionic builds, Duskblade builds, and Glaivelocks rather than being a Wizard/(Almost) Full casting classes with decent BAB/Abjurant Champion.

[fishbrains]

I just want to thank everyone for the responses so far. That Phantom Knight sounds pretty awesome. I like the fluff. I can probably come up with a good backstory for it.