[3.5] Swordsage Handbook: This one'll walk the whole Way {WIP, PEACH} [Archive]

RFLS

2012-10-28, 06:54 PM

The Basics

Abilities

This is a discussion of the mechanical benefits of individual abilities. This should not be taken as advice on character concepts, in any case, ever, unless you are building strictly for optimization. Swordsage is a versatile class, and can be built accordingly.

Dexterity - Pump this through the roof. It boosts your AC, many of your primary skills and/or school skills, and will generally be boosting your attack rolls, as well.

Wisdom - You should almost always be getting a positive modifier in here. As long as you're in light armor, it's added straight to your AC. Additionally, many of your maneuvers that allow a save scale off of your wisdom.

Constitution - This shouldn't need explanation. You're on a d8 hit-die, and death is generally something to avoid. Also, Diamond Mind maneuvers make use of the Concentration skill, making a bonus here a good thing.

Intelligence - Your class sets you up to be a skill-monkey, and this is where you get those points from. Be sure you're not taking a hit here, but most of the time, you'll be fine without the bonus, too. If you're the group's skill monkey, this goes straight to gold.

Strength - This is black in name only. In reality, it's either purple or cyan. You should consider what your Swordsage is doing before you dump or pump this.

Charisma - This is what the warning at the start was for. There's no mechanical benefit to pumping Charisma, but you shouldn't automatically dump it every time.

You may have noticed a slight anger management problem present in the class. That's right; it's super-MAD (For those of you who don't know, that's Multi-Ability-Dependent). HOWEVER. There is good news on this front- you generally get to ignore one or two of the blue scores, depending on what you're trying to do.

Races

Before I start the races section, it's worth noting a few things. First, these ratings are predicated on a Dex based build, but I have tried to note when a race would be better or worse than normal for a different build.

A few of the presented races have LA, racial HD, or both. In these cases, I've generally marked the race as black. However, if you can't do something to negate that, they'll generally fall at least one rating. Be aware of this when you pick your race.

Buomman - (Planar Handbook) Wis +2, Cha -2. I'm not really fond of these things without Dragonborn of Bahumat to get rid of the speech impediment thing, but they are one of the few LA +0 races that gets a Wis bonus.

Changeling - This is a kinda boring race, to be honest. You don't gain much, but you don't lose anything.

Domovoi - (FB) LA+2; RHD 2; ECL +4; Fey hit dice aren't great, but they are small, and have huge bonuses to dex/wis/cha/int, bonus to con, and penalty to str. They also pick up some natural armor and very minor SLAs. Might make an excellent stealthy, infiltrator type swordsage. If you can buyoff the LA, these guys go up to blue.

Dragonborn - This is an odd template. Most of the time, it will be purple. However, on certain races that have a +4 Dex, it can go to blue or even cyan. For instance, a Setting Sun-based Dragonborn Goblin might be entertaining.

Dwarves - Oddly, they're not that bad. You get a bonus to Constitution and a penalty to your dump stat, along with some other nice bonuses. The only thing that keeps them from being blue is the lower speed.

Elves - The core race (+2 Dex, -2 Con) is good, but the hit to Con, as always, hurts. The more common racial variants are below. Some of them are better, some are worse.

Painted Elf - (Sandstorm) The only reason these aren't gold is the hit to Intelligence; if you're not focusing on skills, it does go to gold.

Snow Elves - (Frostburn) These are an excellent race. Bonus to your pump stat, penalty to dump? Sign me up.

Star Elves - Gross. Avoid these forever. Bonus to Charisma and penalty to Constitution is just awful for you.

Githzerai - Black in name only, they're purple if you're playing without LA buyoff and gold if you are. The built in psi-abilities is just gravy.

Githyanki - LA+2, get boosts to dex, and con and a wis penalty, but they keep the power resistance and have an even more interesting list of tasty psi-like abilities. These are generally purple, but if you can negate the LA, they go up to black or blue.

Gnomes - They don't really do anything for you one way or another, at least as a base race. Whisper Gnomes, however, are outstanding.

Goblin - Very nice bonus to Dexterity, and the penalty to Strength can be dealt with. Small size is nice for the various bonuses, and, of course, Darkvision and Stealth bonuses are nice. Air Goblins (Unearthed Arcana) are a very nice variant for you. Adding the Dragonborn template leaves you with a Dex bonus and no penalty to Constitution. Either way you go, though, very nice things.

Goliath - An odd choice for Swordsage, but bear with me - with Powerful Build and a +4 to Strength, they're already tripping at a +6 over other Swordsages. For Setting Sun, they've got a racial bonus to Sense Motive. Finally, they're always treated as running for a Jump check - which goes really well with Tiger Claw. A solid, if odd, choice.

Hadozee - (Stormwrack) Free feat, bonus to Dex, hit to Cha? These are great.

Half Elves - Just....the definition of meh right here.

Half Giants - Largely similar to Goliaths. 2 PP for use to boost Concentration checks makes them an excellent choice for Diamond Mind Swordsages.

Half Orcs - The penalty to Intelligence might hurt a little, but Darkvision makes up for that. Somebody at WotC really hated this race, though. For a Setting Sun based Swordsage, these guys go to blue

Halflings - These guys are pretty great. Small size, bonus to Dex, bonus to saving throws. The only thing that kept them from gold is the 20 foot landspeed. These go to black or worse for a Setting Sun swordsage. The more common racial variants are spoilered below.

Jungle Halfling - (Unearthed Arcana) Basically the same as a normal halfling, but poison use can be a fun toy.

Strongheart Halfling - (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting) Bonus feat and Small size? AND a bonus to Dex? I'll take two, they're small. Anyway, they may go to cyan for a Setting Sun build.

Water Halfling - (Unearthed Arcana) They get a bonus to Con. What's not to like?

Humans - Feats are delicious. So are skills. A solid choice, as always.

Kenku - (MMIII) Bonus to Dex, hit to Str. They get claw attacks, which goes really well with Tiger Claw and Bloodclaw Master.

Kobold - Pretty decent non-ability buffs, but a net -4 to abilities really hurts. Desert Kobolds (Unearthed Arcana) are worth mentioning. They have the same problems as regular Kobolds, but the lack of a penalty to Con bumps them up.

Marrulurks - (SS) LA+1; RHD 3; ECL+4; These guys are quite powerful. They're small, they get monstrous humanoid HD big bonuses to dex/con/wis, bonuses to str/cha, natural armor, free 2d6 sneak attack, death attack, poison use, and a nauseating breath Su and some additional minor benefits from their marruspawn traits. Whoa. They do so much swordsage related work.

Orc - For an ordinary Swordsage, these guys go to purple. However, if you're playing a Setting Sun based Swordsage, they go to blue.

Shifter - These are, quite honestly, one of my favorite races, but they're very feat intensive to make work well for any build, and that doesn't play too well with Swordsage. However, they don't take any particular hits.

Thri-Kreen (non-psionic) - LA+1; RHD 2; ECL+3; Get tasty monstrous humanoid hit dice, increased movement, boosts to dex/wis/str and penalties to int/cha, natural armor and weapons, additional limbs (for MWF!) familiarity with a few interesting exotic weapons and a sick bonus to jump checks. These guys are begging to be Tiger Claw Jump/MWF focused swordsages.

Warforged - These guys are black. They get a boatload of nice traits, but the hit to Wisdom really hurts.

Xeph - These guys are right on the edge of black. A psionic warrior/swordsage multiclass might go quite nicely, though. If only soulknife had gotten nice things.....

Class Features

A simple listing of the toys and features of your class, color-coded for your convenience. The ratings are general-use; I'm sure some of these can be more powerful than how I've listed them.

d8 Hit Dice - Eh. Wish for more, be happy you got it.

Fort/Reflex/Will - Duh, duh, and duh. As a side-note, if you're following a normal Swordsage build, your good saves will have bonuses to them.

Skills - 6 + Int skill points is pretty nice. If you're new to the game, be aware that a Swordsage should probably not get (6 + Int) x 6 skill points at level 1. This is, however, a matter for the DM (literal bonus points if you talk him into it).

BAB - Average. You wish it could be good, but you get enough goodies without that.

Maneuvers - This is it. This is the reason you're here. Good luck, and enjoy.

Stances - They're sexy and they know it.

Quick to Act - Initiative is nice. This goes to gold if you're playing as someone with Sneak Attack or a similar ability. It's essentially a free feat at level 15.

Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus) - Hold your horses. This is blue because it means that, until level 5, you have the same BAB as a full BAB class. This is really kinda nice.

AC Bonus - This is pretty nice. It's free AC, and synergizes with the Discipline Focus stuff.

Discipline Focus (Insightful Strikes) - This is pretty cool beans. It's the other reason to pump Wisdom in this class, and, as a Swordsage, you should be making a great many strikes.

Sense Magic - This confuses me greatly. It doesn't make sense (to me) with the rest of the class. It's still free, though, so don't hate on it.

Discipline Focus (Defensive Stance) - This is, again, nice. It's a +2 to saving throws almost all the time if you pick the correct school. Pick the correct school.

Evasion and Improved Evasion - These come a little late, in my opinion, but they're still pretty nice. Reduced damage is reduced damage.

Dual Boost - This is a pretty sweet toy, but the limited number of uses per day kinda hurts, especially given the Swordsage's terrible recovery mechanic. This is one I generally make a point of talking to my DM about. YMMV.

RFLS

2012-10-28, 06:57 PM

Stances and Maneuvers

These are the bread and butter of the martial adept classes. This guide will be assuming a normally played Swordsage for the purposes of rating things, but I will do my best to note when a particular maneuver or stance changes rating under different builds. Most of these changes will be due to a Setting Sun/Stone Dragon focused Swordsage. Before I go into detail on individual maneuvers and stances, I will break down and explain the system. By doing this, I hope to make Tome of Battle slightly easier to understand for those new to the system. If you know this stuff backwards and forwards, skip this part.

Initiator Level

Initiator level is one of the most well designed things in Tome of Battle. Your initiator level is as follows:

Martial Adept level + Martial Adept PrC levels + 1/2 of any other class levels

Every single maneuver or stance has an Initiator level prerequisite, and this is how you figure that out.

Maneuver and Stance Level

The second of the two confusing parts of this system is maneuver and stance level. The simplest way to explain this is as analogous to spell levels. You don't get 9th level spells at level 9; likewise, you don't get 9th level maneuvers at level 9. To figure out what level of maneuver or stance you qualify for, you divide your Initiator level by two and round up.

Using Stances and Maneuvers

Stances

Stances are very, very easy to use. Here's how you do it:

1. Check your "Stances Known" list.
2. Pick the one you wish to gain the benefit of.
3. Use your swift action for the round to activate the stance.
4. Congratulations! You now gain the benefit of the stance.

That being said, stances are well-known for having a goofy progression in relation to when you receive a new one compared to when new ones are available. I will discuss ways to fix or overcome this in the PrC and Multi-classing section.

Maneuvers

Swordsages are well known for having the worst recovery mechanic of the three Martial Adepts. However, they do have the most maneuvers known and readied, which (somewhat) balances things out. Be aware that, with their recovery mechanic, you will be all about proper use of maneuvers, hitting fast, and getting out while you can. Your recovery simply does not allow goofing around, and definitely does not allow for a sustained fight.

You start combat with a number of maneuvers readied. These are the maneuvers you have access to without 5 minutes of meditation or a feat. When you use a maneuver, it's gone either until the combat ends or until you take a full round action to recover it. Yeah, that's right. You spend a full-round action to recover one maneuver. This recovery is red.

There are 3 (okay, 4, if you count "untyped") kinds of maneuvers: Strikes, Boosts, and Counters. Strikes are how you'll be doing most of your damage, and will make for the majority of your maneuvers known, most of the time. Boosts are either a bonus to an attack or a skill check; these are few and far between. They're generally a nice thing to have, though. Counters are what they say on the tin; they're made in reaction to opponents, and generally eat your immediate (and therefore swift) action for the turn.

List of Stances

Level 1 Stances

Flame's Blessing (DW): An undervalued stance. Yes, Desert Wind gets frequently picked on for only doing fire damage, which is the most common energy resistance/immunity you run into. Well, turnabout is fair play, and most of those things that are resistant or immune to fire *also* frequently do fire damage. Complete immunity to fire kicks in around ECL 16. Kinda useless if you're not taking any fire damage, but could be very useful to have around, depending on the campaign.

Stance of Clarity (DM): Might be useful for one-on-one battles (which happens how often?), but becomes a liability whenever there are two or more enemies on the battlefield. Most Swordsages already have an AC that's on the high end, so you don't really need this.

Step of the Wind(SS). Depends on how much your DM uses difficult terrain, and most of them don't bother to put it on the battlefield. May also depend on how your DM defines difficult terrain. For example, does this stance let you walk through grease and slippery ice as if it weren't there? Probably not. However, if either a) you have a way of making difficult terrain, or b) it lets you ignore slippery surfaces, this goes to blue.

Child of Shadows (SH): If you're focusing on Diamond Mind and other standard-action strikes, good for move + attack, and good for "just walking around" out-of-combat stuff. If you're of the TWF/sneak attack persuasion, it's not so good, since you probably prefer full-round attacks to move + standard attack.

Island of Blades (SH): This is only gold if you have a rogue in the party. Otherwise, it's pretty nice, but not quite there. If you're the only melee in the party, this goes to black.

Stonefoot Stance (SD): This is really just a meh stance for you. It inhibits mobility, and you're a generally mobile class. This would go straight to red if it weren't for the occasional utility.

Blood In The Water (TC): This really hurts me to write off as average, but I have to, despite my fondness for crit-fishers. Anyway. If you're not crit-fishing, skip it. If you are, this is the stance for you.

Hunter's Sense (TC): This is an odd one. It gives you scent, and you absolutely need to know the rules on scent to get the benefit you want from this. I'm more inclined to recommend bags of flour, but this can be a very useful stance to have on hand.

Level 3 Stances

Holocaust Cloak (DW): This has the same problem that a lot of Desert Wind has, namely, energy resistance. Also, the stance specifies that they have to hit you, which is just a bad idea for Swordsages. Skip it, unless you want to be the Dread Pirate Roberts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6Z9KqjSOko).

Pearl of Black Doubt (DM): This is an astounding stance. You should always have it in your repertoire, unless you have a really good reason not to. It makes you effectively immune to swarms of mooks, and gives other people a hard time in hitting you.

Giant Killing Style (SS): This might be a good stance for certain builds, but in general you're better off in another stance. The +4 untyped damage might be handy in a Confound the Big Folk/"I May Be Tiny But You're Dead" kind of build, works with Ubercharger multipliers, and has some possibilities with ranged attacks (yes, that bonus applies to ranged as well as melee), but ranged combat isn't exactly a strong suit for Swordsages or ToB in general.

Assassin's Stance (SH): #1 pick for most Shadow Hand Swordsages, and opens up feats like Craven and Staggering Strike (now if they only had feat slots available... hah). If you're doing anything with Shadow Blade, you'll probably spend 95% of the rest of your career in this stance. Arguably (as in, take it up with your DM) provides entrance to classes with Sneak Attack as a prerequisite.

Dance of the Spider (SH): At-will Spiderclimb, which is super-fun and super-useful unless you manage to get yourself a permanent fly speed. Requires a free hand to hold onto a wall, so may interfere with your combat style and may be only situationally useful in combat depending on the terrain available, but out-of-combat lets you walk around or over the most dangerous dungeon features.

Crushing Weight of the Mountain (SD): One of the few Stone Dragon stances that doesn't end when you move more than 5', and can be used anywhere (even flying). Also a fairly easy way to add Constrict damage to a grapple build. So, definitely a gold pick if you're a grappler, otherwise skip it.

Roots of the Mountain (SD): No. Just no. More seriously, you shouldn't be standing still, you should never be tripped, and DR 2/- is basically nothing.

Leaping Dragon Stance (TC): This is very, very nice for Tiger Claw based Swordsages, as it basically means you'll always hit those jump checks. If you're one of those guys, this is actually cyan.

Wolverine Stance (TC): How often are you ever in a grapple? Yeah, didn't think so. Skip it.

Level 5 Stances

Hearing the Air (DM): At-will blindsense 30', which allows you to pinpoint invisible stuff. From a utility standpoint, one of the best level 5 stances.

Shifting Defense (SS): This is strange. It's not nearly as good if your DM rules that you move after the attack, but remains blue. However, if you get to move before the attack, it goes up to cyan, and if you're AoO focused, it goes to gold.

Step of the Dancing Moth (SH): Somewhat situationally useful, depending on how often DMs use difficult terrain or expect you to walk across lava. Generally not worth getting... usually Dance of the Spider works just as well, or at this ECL you generally have some sort of temporary flight available.

Giant's Stance (SD): Not worth it. For most weapons, going up one size category is only +1 average damage. Also, it only works on your turn, so you have to recalculate your damage on AoOs, which is kind a PITA. If you need this, buy Strongarm Bracers from the MIC for 6000 GP.

Level 6 Stances

Fiery Assault (DW): Fail. Punishing Stance was doing this from 1st level, only this is fire damage, which a lot of creatures at this level will be resistant/immune.

Level 7 Stances

Prey on the Weak (TC): This stance is useful if you somehow have a long reach. When you read the text, you need to realize that when a foe is dropped, you're granted and AoO. That's it. Not "when you drop a foe." That makes this really, really great for fighting swarms of mooks if you have good reach *coughspikedchaincough*

Level 8 Stances

Rising Phoenix (DW): This is actually not a very good stance at all, since it may be closer to levitating than flying, and most PCs have been flying loop-the-loops around you for ages by the time you get this stance. But on the other hand, how many of those fliers can say they are flying on top of a superheated flamethrower of their own awesomeness? So that's got to be worth something, at least for the purposes of style. But also... Diving Charge/Battle Jump + Pounce = automatic fire damage to everything adjacent to you, so it may be a great way to take out a few armies.

Stance of Alacrity (DM): Counters eat up your swift actions, which at this level are extremely precious. Just to keep on top of the action economy, you'll probably spend the rest of your career in this stance.

Ghostly Defense (SS): Depends a great deal on whether your opponents have to roll for concealment/miss chance, and only works if there's another enemy nearby to take the hit. Also, you get punished for having a high AC, and lowering your AC to make this work seems counter-intuitive. Very difficult to get this to work reliably, so not really worth the bother.

Balance on the Sky (SH): At-will air walk, with the somewhat bizarre requirement that you keep one hand empty (...but why? This is never explained). Somewhat useless if you already have a permanent fly speed, but if not, then quite handy, because it's somewhat like a perfect fly speed and hovering all rolled into one.

Strength of Stone (SD): Meh. At this level, buying a buckler with heavy fortification or that gem of fortification from the Draconomicon is generally affordable.

Wolf Pack Tactics (TC): Might be interesting, but not nearly as useful as Stance of Alacrity. I'm quite tempted to switch this to blue, but can't quite justify it.

List of Maneuvers

Desert Wind

Level 1 Maneuvers

Blistering Flourish: This is kinda meh. Dazzled is not a big deal, and many things just don't care.
Burning Blade: It's not bad early on, when few things have fire resistance or outright immunity. Due to a lack of IL cap, this scales rather nicely.
Distracting Ember: Flanking is nice. Everyone likes flanking. Additionally, this can be used to check for traps, set things on fire, illumination, and basically anything creative you can think to do with a bit of fire.
Wind Stride: While a +10 foot speed boost is nice, you have a ton of swift action options available. Not your best choice for a boost.

Level 2 Maneuvers

Burning Brand: Eh, 5-foot reach is nice, but, as always, fire damage is not incredibly desireable.

Fire Riposte: It's fire damage, you spend your swift action for the round, and you have to get hit. Less than ideal.

Flashing Sun: This is near black, but the -2 on attacks kinda sucks, especially since you're spending a strike on it.

Hatchling's Flame: Strictly meh. It's like Burning Hands, but you're spending a maneuver known on it.

Level 3 Maneuvers

Death Mark: This is oddly nice, but it's very situational, and requires you to be in a less than ideal position to be used to maximum potential.
Fan the Flames: Like most direct fire damage, there's nothing special to see here. Move along.
Zephyr Dance: Somewhere between black and blue. On one hand, you shouldn't be getting hit, but on the other, it's nice to be able to just say "no" to an attack.

Level 4 Maneuvers

Firesnake: Just...don't. You're spending a maneuver known to be able to cast Flaming Sphere.
Searing Blade: Eh. Bonus damage, but it's fire.
Searing Charge: This is really pushing blue, to be honest. However, charging will generally not be your thing.

Level 5 Maneuvers

Dragon's Flame: See Hatchling's Flame.
Leaping Flame: This is blue because I'm intrigued, and it seems useful. However, I can't think of anything but the obvious situation where this is useful. The best I've got is going after casters who're throwing rays around. This will probably go to black.
Lingering Inferno: This is pointless and you don't want it.

Level 6 Maneuvers

Desert Tempest: This is a very useful ability. Making lots of attacks is nice; if you use this with Wind Stride it gets better.
Ring of Fire: At first, this seems really good. On first sight, I was inclined to give it blue. However, it requires a closed shape, which is a lot less area than you'd think, and many things at this level have an outright "no" button to this ability.

Level 7 Maneuvers

Inferno Blade; Same as before. Skip it.
Salamander Charge: Eh. It's a very strange ability. Not having to stay in a straight line on a charge is nice, though.

Level 8 Maneuvers

Wyrm's Flame: Boring. Skip it.

Level 9 Maneuvers

Inferno Blast: As put by my predecessors, the political power of being able to torch a small country every few rounds must be nice, but this is basically pointless against CR-appropriate challenges.

Diamond Mind

Level 1 Maneuvers

Moment of Perfect Mind: You're melee and you love this.
Sapphire Nightmare Blade: This combos very well with Assassin's Stance or any Rogue levels you might have. Even if you don't have those, flat-footed attacks are easier to make.

Level 2 Maneuvers

Action Before Thought: Never, ever get this. You should never fail a Reflex save.
Emerald Razor One of the best maneuvers. Making touch attacks is an incredibly valuable thing; cherish it.

Level 3 Maneuvers

Insightful Strike: This is a nice source of bonus damage. I'm inclined to place this in black, but I can't quite convince myself.
Mind Over Body: Given your low Fort save, this is a nice thing to have.

Level 4 Maneuvers

Bounding Assault: This lets you do many, many things that a charge specifically doesn't allow you to do, such as turning and going over rough terrain. Very nice to have.
Mind Strike: I am undecided on this; however, ability damage is always a good thing. The very worst is that you drop the critter's Will save.
Ruby Nightmare Blade: Double damage, you say? That sounds good. I'll take two.

Level 5 Maneuvers

Disrupting Blow: This is an oddly written ability. However, "no" buttons are a nice thing to have around, and this is one of them.
Rapid Counter: It's basically an extra AoO. Go figure.

Level 6 Maneuvers

Greater Insightful Strike: This can get very silly very fast.
Moment of Alacrity: Eh. You move up a little in turn. I suspect that there's a way to combine this with Time Stands still. If that's the case, then this goes to blue, because who doesn't love an absolutely stupid number of attacks per round?

Level 7 Maneuvers

Avalanche of Blades: This is nice. It goes to somewhere past gold if you're using Lightning Mace cheese.
Quicksilver Motion: It's basically free Spring Attack or Pounce.

Level 8 Maneuvers

Diamond Defense: Save bonuses are a very, very good thing to have lying around. The only reason this isn't gold is that it's an 8th level maneuver and therefore precious.
Diamond Nightmare Blade: Very nice damage; easily higher than the "you do 100 damage" 9th level maneuvers.

Level 9 Maneuvers

Time Stands Still: I can't make this gold enough. This is astounding and you have absolutely no reason to ever not take it. Ever.

Setting Sun

Level 1 Maneuvers

Counter Charge: It uses Dex or Str, which makes it pretty good for you. This is a good way to mess with, you guessed it, chargers.
Mighty Throw: This is a great repositioning strike, and prone is a good condition to inflict.

Level 2 Maneuvers

Baffling Defense: This is by far one of my favorite counters; I always find the fluff amusing. Anyway, it's blue because pumping a skill is stupidly easy. However, if you're not building a martial artist type, this is black or purple.
Clever Positioning: Honestly, this is black because I don't really know what to do with it. It's only situationally useful, but it does exactly what it's intended to do. However, it does make flanking easier. It's worth noting that your enemy provokes an AoO if he leaves a threatened square.

Level 3 Maneuvers

Devastating Throw: It's like Mighty Throw, but 2d6 points of damage. One of them is blue and the other is black; user's choice.
Feigned Opening: Situationally useful, but there are probably better uses of your immediate actions. That being said, this would combo well with an AoO build, and goes to blue in one.

Level 4 Maneuvers

Comet Throw: This is a great maneuver. It's similar to the previous 2 throws, with the exception that you get to try to knock another opponent prone, too.
Strike of the Broken Shield Automatic extra damage, and a chance to flank the opponent for 1 round.

Level 5 Maneuvers

Mirrored Pursuit: This is primarily used for lockdown builds. It allows you to stay on top of fleeing opponents.
Soaring Throw: This is eh. There are a bunch of throws you should already have, and this doesn't bring anything particularly new to the table.
Stalking Shadow: Unless I'm missing something, this is purple because it is, in every way, worse than Mirrored Pursuit.

Level 6 Maneuvers

Ballista Throw: The immediate draw is the damage, but you need to be aware that there are oh-so-many ways you can abuse a 60 foot throw.
Scorpion Parry: Fun ability, nice fluff. The RAW is unclear as to whether you can cause him to hit himself; however, the Fool's Strike 2 levels up suggests that it is not meant to allow redirection to the attacker.

Level 7 Maneuvers

Hydra Slaying Strike: If you're fighting stuff with a lot of attacks per round, this is a must have. This goes to purple if you're fighting mostly casters or single attack monsters.

Level 8 Maneuvers

Fool's Strike; This is a nice trick, but not that much greater than Scorpion Parry. It's black for the same reason.

Level 9 Maneuvers

Tornado Throw: Run around really fast and throw people? Yes please. This goes goes beyond gold if you're already a focused tripper build.

Shadow Hand

Level 1 Maneuvers

Clinging Shadow Strike: This leans towards blue, but it's only 1 round in duration and has a low save to beat.
Shadow Blade Technique: Basically, doubles your chances to hit, and gives a little bonus damage if you hit with both.

Level 2 Maneuvers

Cloak of Deception: This is a beautiful abilitiy. You should almost always have this in your repertoire.
Drain Vitality: It's okay. You won't be doing much HP damage through the Con damage at this level, though.
Shadow Jaunt: It's nice, and high utility, but it's less than awesome in combat because it's eating your standard action. It's an Ex ability, so enjoy teleports in anti-magic fields.

Level 3 Maneuvers

Shadow Garrote: This is pretty good, especially if you have a rogue in the party.
Strength Draining Strike: Strength damage is nice, especially since it's guaranteed to do at least some. Good for irritating chargers and heavy melee.

Level 4 Maneuvers

Hand of Death: This can go either way, really. The save is nothing special, but 1d3 rounds of paralysis is essentially a death sentence.
Obscuring Shadow Veil: Miss chance is nice, but you get this at level 7, when there are better status effects to be inflicting.

Level 5 Maneuvers

Bloodletting Strike: This is pretty good to take if you're a melee fighter; towards higher levels, that's a lot of HP lost from the Con loss.
Shadow Stride: Most enjoyable. You can teleport right next to an opponent and use one of your standard action strikes. Again, high out of combat utility. It's an Ex ability, so enjoy teleports in anti-magic fields.

Level 6 Maneuvers

Ghost Blade: Sapphire Nightmare Blade has been doing this since level 1.
Shadow Noose: Not too shabby. Be aware that it must be made against flat-footed opponents.
Stalker in the Night: This is...odd. I'm not quite sure what to make of it. However, if you've boosted your stealth skills, and you have Spring Attack, this goes to gold.

Level 7 Maneuvers

Death in the Dark: This is nice. It's always extra damage. Nothing to write home about, though. It edges towards black.
Shadow Blink: Swift action teleport? Holy crap, this is great. Wait, it's not Su or Sp? You're crazy if you don't take this.

Level 8 Maneuvers

Enervating Shadow Strike: Higher level than Enervation and offers a save. Still, negative levels are nice.
One With Shadow: This is leaning towards gold, but it's dependent on your ability to use your incorporeality to good effect.

Level 9 Maneuvers

Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike: This is really, really good. Take this. It hurts no mater what happens, as long as you hit on the attack.

Stone Dragon

Level 1 Maneuvers

Charging Minotaur: It's a reasonably good maneuver. Moves you and deals pretty good damage as a bull rush to a foe. Blue if you have a good strength score, black otherwise.

Stone Bones: This really isn't for Swordsages. It can provide some reasonably increased survivability for a single round, but you can do better elsewhere.

Level 2 Maneuvers

Mountain Hammer: As put my one of the previous guides, this is the Swiss Army Knife of dungeon redecorating. It lets you ignore DR and hardness, and deals bonus damage. It tends to be more of a utility maneuver for Swordsages than a combat one, though.

Stone Vice: Mediocre damage and save or be unable to move. Unfortunately it doesn't work against fliers. Not too bad.

Level 3 Maneuvers

Bonecrusher : Pretty good bonus damage and Fort save versus +10 to confirm criticals. If you're a crit fisher, this can be a boon.

Stone Dragon's Fury: Same damage bonus as Bonecrusher, but only against constructs and objects. Doesn't ignore Hardness, so Mountain Hammer will sometimes be better, you can use this in conjunction with Sunder.

Level 4 Maneuvers

Bonesplitting Strike Deal an extra 2 constitution damage. The best part? No Save. Constitution damage is nasty. This is a really good maneuver.

Boulder Roll: When's the last time someone you know used an overrun attack?

Overwhelming Mountain Strike: Just like Stone Vice, but at this point the damage has really failed to keep up. You could do better.

Level 5 Maneuvers

Elder Mountain Hammer: Just like Mountain hammer but does 6d6 damage. Nice.

Mountain Avalache: Hey, a trampling attack. That's cool. Too bad the damage is pathetic at this level, even if you have a good strength.

Level 6 Maneuvers

Crushing Vice: Just like Stone Vice. The damage component still isn't keeping up very well, but it's trying.

Iron Bones: A better version of Stone Bones, but still, you could do better. DR 10/adamantine for a round at the cost of your standard action is a steep price.

Irresistible Mountain Strike: Deals mediocre damage, but has a chance to deprive your foe of their standard action. If you have a good strength score to boost the DC, this is blue , otherwise it's black.

Level 7 Maneuvers

Ancient Mountain Hammer: As Mountain Hammer, except 12d6 bonus damage. That's a fistful of d6's. Where does that phrase come from? The only other place I've seen it is the Rogue Handbook.

Colossus Strike: Deals 6d6 additional damage, with a chance to knock the opponent back and prone. If you have good strength, this goes to blue.

Level 8 Maneuvers

Adamantine Bones: At this level, it's a terrible exchange. DR 20/adamantine is quite a lot, but the action cost is too steep.

Earthstrike Quake: This is good against swarms of mooks. If you can find a way to abuse that obstacles don't block line of effect it might be blue.

Level 9 Maneuvers

Mountain Tombstone Strike: No prerequisites. Does 2d6 con damage? No Save? Amazing!

Tiger Claw

Level 1 Maneuvers

Sudden Leap: This "isn't" Pounce *wink* *wink* In seriousness, this boost does wonders for your action economy, especially if you can be treated as running from a standstill for Jump checks.
Wolf Fang Strike: Blue in name only, this goes to cyan or possibly gold if you're TWFing. You see that boost right above this one? Do the math. At level 1, you can jump at your opponent, hit him twice, and then use your move action to get away. The only reason this isn't automatically gold for TWFers is that there's no way to apply iteratives.

Level 2 Maneuvers

Claw at the Moon: It's bonus damage, but not the best thing in the world.
Rabid Wolf Strike: Eh. Mediocre damage. The penalty to AC at this level really hurts, too. I would generally pass.

Level 3 Maneuvers

Flesh Ripper: Many melee opponents will be making this save without trying at this point. On the other hand, it inflicts some really fun penalties.
Soaring Raptor Strike: Nice damage, but too situational. This goes to blue or higher if you're a Small race, though.

Level 4 Maneuvers

Death from Above: Again, bonus damage, but not the greatest thing. You should always be able to hit the DC at this point, though.
Fountain of Blood: Too specific, easily beaten DC, and many things are immune to fear effects. Skip it. The only redeeming quality is the disturbing mental image.

Level 5 Maneuvers

Dancing Mongoose: Extra attacks are always nice. This goes to gold if you're TWFing.
Pouncing Charge: This is the only way other than Lion Totem Barbarian that I'm aware of to gain Pounce (outside weird races and Polymorph shenanigans). The only reason this isn't gold is that your chassis doesn't set you up to be a charger.

Level 6 Maneuvers

Rabid Bear Strike: The bonus to-hit and damage is nice, but the penalty to AC really makes this hurt.
Wolf Climbs the Mountain: This needs double checking, but it looks like you get nothing but good from this maneuver. The only reason I'm unsure about the rating is I'm not entirely clear on the rules about sharing a square.

Level 7 Maneuvers

Hamstring Attack: Guaranteed slowing and Dex damage on a hit? This is pretty great.
Swooping Dragon Strike: This goes to gold if you're maxing Jump. You can very quickly put the save DC outside anything possible to make, and stunned is a very powerful condition.

Level 8 Maneuvers

Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip: This is black in name only. In reality, it goes straight to gold for TWFers and straight to red for everyone else.
Raging Mongoose: Two extra attacks at full attack for Two Weapon Fighters.

Level 9 Maneuvers

Feral Death Blow: I'm torn on this. There are too many chances at failure in my opinion, but, on the other hand, if you beat the Jump DC and their flat-footed AC, it's really nice. You should always be beating the Jump DC, and flat-footed makes things easier on you. However, many monsters have a high Fort save. Anyway, end result is either instant death or ~70 damage. You'll never touch a tank with it, though.

RFLS

2012-10-28, 06:58 PM

Feats

Feats are where a lot of a character's definition comes into play. Do I grapple? Do I trip? Do I hide? Do I flail madly at everything in sight and stop only when it's all dead? Swordsages get all of those options and a ton more. For this reason, I will be dividing feats into (spoilered) groups based on what sort of character they go on. Some feats will appear on more than one list. If a feat appears on three or more lists, it will instead be at the start of this list in the general area. You should always read the general area before going anywhere else. Finally, it's worth noting that this is by no means an exhaustive list of feats - it's just a good starting place for the most common Swordsage types out there.

General Purpose

Adaptive Style: This isn't so much a feat you can take as a class feature that eats a feat slot. You should always, always have this in your build. I cannot stress that enough.

Weapon Finesse: Gold for Dex based Swordsages only (so, most of them). However, a more Setting Sun/Stone Dragon focused Swordsage can completely ignore this feat.

Shadow Blade: For a Dex based Swordsage, this is a nice source of bonus damage. Keep in mind that it stacks with your Strength modifier and that it's only for Shadow Hand stances.

Combat Reflexes: Generally, you should at least consider it, but it's not a must have most of the time. The exception, of course, is AoO builds.

Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack: Spring Attack is nice, but the prereqs are just awful. Only consider this for getting into Prestige Classes, and even then, think hard before you do.

Combat Expertise: For a skill monkey type Swordsage, this is a good feat to have. Otherwise, you can probably skip it.

Knowledge Devotion: Same as above, really. You'll appreciate the bonuses if you do take it, though.

Superior Unarmed Strike: Black in name only, this is red if you're using a weapon and cyan if you're using the unarmed variant.

Snap Kick: Black in name only, this is red if you're using a weapon and cyan if you're using the unarmed variant. Hm. That sounds familiar.

Steady Concentration: Take 10 on my saves? Yes, please and thank you, I'll come again.

Stone Power: I'm not entirely sure what to make of this. It's more of a tank feat, and you really, really shouldn't be tanking. In general, skip it.

Shards of Granite: This is a pretty good feat, but it seems to encourage standing around and taking a beating. I don't generally recommend it, but if that's the path you're taking, this is a good one to have around.

Sudden Recovery: Swordsages are the Adept most often put in the "Oh crap I need that NOW" boat for maneuvers. This is an excellent feat for you, as it largely solves that problem.

Desert Wind Dodge: By far better than Dodge. If you're going for Spring Attack, you need to use this.

Staggering Strike: This is a good option for Swordsages using Sneak Attack. Not much else to say.

Three Mountains: Not really your cup of tea.

Travel Devotion: As always, this is a great option. You should consider it if you have room in your build.

Tripper

Improved Trip: This is pretty much necessary for trippers. +4 and a free attack is a big deal.

Knock-Down: Free trip attempt whenever you deal a tiny amount of damage? This is a no-brainer. Debatably procs Improved Trip.

Jotunbrud: The wording is strange, and it's only available to first level humans. Be aware that it allows you to treat yourself as Large, not as one size larger.

EWP: Spiked Chain: The only reason this isn't orange is because I'd feel guilty recommending borderline cheese. Be sure it fits at your table's optimization level before taking it. Although...if you have a full caster at the table, go right ahead.

Defensive Throw: Free trips when someone misses? Sign me up. Combos well with Pearl of Black Doubt.

Great Throw: This is fun, but the prereqs and restriction to unarmed strikes make it less appealing. Still, it should be mentioned. It's found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060413a), for anyone having trouble finding it.

Sneaker

Gloom Razor: This is a beautiful feat for Sneak Attackers, especially given that the three options are synergistic with each other.

Craven: Free damage independent of your SA dice. Take it at some point if you're setting up for Sneak Attacking.

Darkstalker: This finally lets you avoid the various senses higher-level critters have - you're not out of look when you fight a dragon anymore. You'd think this would be built right into the Stealth skills, but nooooo.... Anyway, if you're intent on sneaking, you absolutely must have this feat.

Skill Monkey

Really, this section is more of a generic "How-To." I would highly recommend dipping Rogue or Factotum with such a character. Additionally, the feat Able Learner is excellent for UMD after a rogue dip. Finally, the Chameleon PrC should be looked at for a solid skill monkey cap.

Flurry of Death

Lightning Maces: This is part of a silly, silly feat chain I'll explain in greater detail in a bit. It does require Aptitude <Your Weapon of Choice Here>

Improved Critical: This goes up if you have a level of Warblade to retrain it for use with different weapons.

Two Weapon Fighting Chain Only blue because you need them. These feats kinda bite without bonus damage of some sort.

The above feat combos generate about 5.5 attacks per round with BAB 6. When combined with the feat Snap Kick and a pair of Adaptive weapons, this can generate an infinite amount of attacks. Don't take this all the way for anything but a high-OP table. The Lightning Maces + Aptitude Weapon is pushing it by itself.

RFLS

2012-10-28, 06:59 PM

Skills

Balance: You should put at least 10 ranks in this. Orange because Grease is a thing.

Climb: Definitely nice to have ranks in, but not mandatory.

Concentration: Generally black. If you're focusing on Diamond Mind maneuvers or gishing into JPM, this goes to cyan or even gold.

Craft: Boring, pointless. Take ranks as a prereq or for flavor reasons. Otherwise, skip it.

Heal: If you have leftover points, put one or two in here, I suppose. Stabilizing is better than dead, but honestly, just get a healer of some sort.

Hide: Variable. Generally cyan, but if you're focusing on Shadow Hand, it goes to gold. If you're tripping, it goes to blue or black.

Intimidate: You have no particular use for it, but it can be useful at times.

Jump: This is just a good skill to put points into. If you're focusing on Tiger Claw, this goes straight to and past gold.

Knowledges: Can be good, can be bad. Very DM dependent.

Listen: It's always confused me that Swordsages didn't get Spot on their list. Anyway, it's good to have ranks in Listen, because being surpised always sucks.

Martial Lore: Just no.

Move Silently: Variable. Generally cyan, but if you're focusing on Shadow Hand, it goes to gold. If you're tripping, it goes to blue or black.

Profession: It's a trap. Run away.

Ride: There's no real reason to ever take this.

Sense Motive: Nice skill to have, but not exactly a game-changer. It would be better if Setting Sun used it more.

Swim: This doesn't come up often, but when it does, you'll be happy if you put points into it.

Tumble: Great skill. Always max it. Getting hit is no fun.

RFLS

2012-10-28, 07:00 PM

Classes

Given the incredibly large number of roles that a Swordsage can fill, and the number of multiclass and prestige class possibilities, I will be assessing each class and prestige class as though the Swordsage was building to a role similar to the other class or prestige class. For instance, when considering Cleric/Swordsage, I would assume that the player was going for a self-buffing gish build, and possibly aiming for Ruby Knight Windicator. I would NOT assume that he was going to do something completely out of left field, like archery.

Multiclass Possibilities

Barbarian: Barbarian, as always, is a good 1 level dip for a melee build (Say it with me- "Lion Totem") Honestly, though, I wouldn't take it past 1 level, unless you're a tripping focused Swordsage (Wolf Totem + more Rages)

Cleric: As a 1 level dip, Cleric is a pretty astounding choice. You can pick up to domains or domain feats, and you've got Wisdom synergy. Travel domain would be especially recommended, as it lets you simulate Spring Attack. Cleric is also, of course, a prime entry method for the Ruby Knight Windicator.

Crusader: The two classes don't particularly synergize, but it can be a useful dip to qualify for certain PrCs. The extra maneuvers and Furious Counterstrike make it worthwhile, though.

Druid: Eh. Won't really synergize that well with you.

Factotum: This class is really great if you're trying to fill in the skill monkey roll. If you take it a few levels in, you pick up Sneak Attack.

Fighter: 2 level dip here. Nothing to see, move along.

Monk: This is generally a two level dip, as well. You get advanced damage die for your improved unarmed strikes, fast movement, flurry, and two bonus feats. It tends to vary from build to build whether a dip here is a good idea, so think before you dip in this one.

Rogue: 1 or 3 levels of rogue can't hurt for a sneaker build. Not the best, as rogue isn't the best, but not bad. This definitely qualifies you for the classes and feats that have it as a prereq, as opposed to Assassin's Stance, which is debatable.

Warblade: A little more synergistic than the Crusader, but not much. They're blue because you can load a level or two of them up with strikes you'll be using a lot, and then you'll be able to spam those strikes, while focusing on utility on the Swordsage side.

Prestige Classes

It's worth noting that due to the specific wording in ToB, all Prestige Classes are worth a full initiator level instead of the normal half, even if they don't advance maneuvers or stances. Many DMs will houserule this away, but, per RAW, PrCs all grant +1 IL per level.

Bloodclaw Master: This is most likely to see use (read as "only") in a Tiger Claw focused Swordsage. The Shifting is nice, as is Superior Two Weapon Fighting. However, keep in mind that you have to use Tiger Claw maneuvers and stances to use some of the class features, making this a rather poor choice for you if you want to retain those maneuvers for use later.

Chameleon: This class is great for Swordsages - it opens up a lot of versatility, and that floating feat? Yeah - you can use that for Martial Training. Great prestige class all around.

Eternal Blade: You won't get into this class for all 10 levels, meaning you don't get the goodness that is Island in Time. I'd recommend skipping it, to be honest.

Exemplar: This PrC is really solid as a 1 level dip for any skill-monkey Swordsage. The ability to take 10 on certain skills is invaluable (UMD and Tumble both come to mind.

Jade Phoenix Mage: This is a really solid PrC for the gish-sages. There's not much to say about it after that, but I do have two things to point out. The first is that this comboes really, really well with Desert Wind thematically. The second is that fluff is mutable; if you don't like Phoenixes, talk to your DM about being a "Marble Dragon Mage" or something. Don't pass on this class if you're gishing it up.

Master of Nine: This class almost requires dipping around, especially into Monk and Warblade. You can get in with only Swordsage levels, but I don't recommend it, as most of the prereq feats are trash. That being said, every level after the first gives you a pretty cool new toy, and you get the benefit of learning more maneuvers than ANYONE. I've only rated it blue because it tends to take a lot of effort to make it work.

Ruby Knight Vindicator: This requires either two feats for a Devoted Spirit maneuver and stance, or a 1 level dip into Crusader. However, it can make for a very interesting divine gish. It oddly has no spellcasting prereq, so you can enter with one level of, say, Cloistered Cleric. The ability to generate extra swift actions is killer. Other than that, you gain the ability to learn maneuvers from White Raven (Tactics!) and the ability to spend turn attempts to recover maneuvers (lifesaver for a Swordsage). Overall a very solid PrC for you, if you're willing to dip for it.

Shadow Sun Ninja: Strange abilities, but excellent flavor. The PrC is mechanically solid, so I don't have much to add here. If you want to be a ninja, use this class. Friends don't let friends play Complete Adventurer Ninjas.

This section is under construction. I will be perusing splatbooks and other handbooks, as well as taking suggestions for specific feats and general builds. Advice is much appreciated. 10-30-12

RFLS

2012-10-28, 07:02 PM

Swordsage Variants

Arcane Swordsage

The Arcane Swordsage is a variant that is very briefly mentioned in the Tome of Battle. There is no official material on it, so I will briefly present a few possible ways to do it. Be aware that this is entirely up to the DM for use at his table.

Allow the Swordsage to learn spells in place of maneuvers on a 1:1 exchange for maneuver to spell level. Consider Abjuration spells to be Stone Dragon, Evocation to be Desert Wind, Illusion to be Shadow Hand, and Transmutation to be Tiger Claw for the purposes of class features referencing the school of a maneuver. I'll say this now: This could get very broken very quickly.
Give the Swordsage a Bard spell progression, and access to Abjuration, Evocation, Illusion, and Transmutation spells from the wizard and sorcerer spell list. Remove access to maneuvers. This is probably much closer to balanced than the previous suggestion, but it takes a little more work.
Search for a homebrew version that's not one of these. There are at least half a dozen floating around; I'll try to post some links to the better ones at some point.

Unarmed Swordsage

This swordsage variant is a little better detailed, and that means it'll be easier to explain.

What it gains:

A monk's unarmed strike progression. This is the table next to the Monk class that lists how much damage its unarmed strikes do.

What it loses:

Light armor proficiency.

Per RAW, Swordsages don't get their Wisdom bonus to AC while unarmored. I generally recommend ignoring this anyway, but in this case, it becomes necessary. For this variant to work, the Swordsage MUST get Wisdom to AC while unarmored. The variant also fails to detail that the Swordsage receives Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. Give it to them. It's dumb not to.

Homebrew Disciplines

In general, I would recommend being very careful with allowing these. They only fit certain characters, and some of them are more than a little unbalanced. I'll present a few of my personal favorites, and welcome recommendations for others based on balance or flavor.

Dancing Leaf (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85614): It makes you that jackass that no one can ever hit.
Falling Star (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10707): The one by Fax Celestis, specifically. Very solid archery-based discipline.

Adapting Tome Of Battle to Pathfinder

Many people play Pathfinder instead of 3.5 by now, but want all (well, most) of the goodies 3.5 brought to the table. Much of it is very easy to port straight over, but Tome of Battle is a little more difficult, mostly because of the changes to skills that Pathfinder included. That being said, here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s7GQLBeyEP1FitOMikP_Kh8oRmKnzG_AKvaOPqjHqWk/edit) is an excellent guide to porting it over. I'll link that again, just to make sure (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s7GQLBeyEP1FitOMikP_Kh8oRmKnzG_AKvaOPqjHqWk/edit).

RFLS

2012-10-28, 07:05 PM

Post 8: Reserved for even MORE stuff that I forgot to account for.

Changelog
I'll be writing down what I change as opposed to what I add here.
10-30-12: Big update to the Races section. Also added the dual boost capstone.
10-30-12: Edited the Abilities, Races, and Class Features section to include the Cyan rating, as well as incorporating input.
10-29-12: Changed the Holocaust Cloak to its proper rating. I maintain that it is gold =P
10-29-12: Added a Cyan rating
1-29-13: It's been a while, huh? Added some multiclass ratings and resumed general work on the handbook.
4-3-13: Reformatted the race section to hopefully be a little more readable. I've also added the prestige class and variant sections.
11-30-13: Updated and reformatted skills, feats, and maneuvers. Rated prestige classes. Made minor spelling edits. Added a picture to the OP.

This section is under construction. I will be perusing splatbooks and other handbooks, as well as taking suggestions for specific feats and general builds. Advice is much appreciated. 10-30-12

Aegis013

2012-10-28, 07:08 PM

Here's the old handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196531), forever under construction.

I'm looking forward to seeing yours!

Lateral

2012-10-28, 07:31 PM

Yellow is really hard to read on some monitors. Try Dark Orange for Gold instead.

Darrin

2012-10-28, 07:40 PM

You're welcome to use anything I've posted in the previous thread (or Talya's stances thread). No sense in reinventing the wheel.

RFLS

2012-10-28, 07:59 PM

Here's the old handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196531), forever under construction.

I'm looking forward to seeing yours!

Yeah, me too xD and thanks for the link.

Yellow is really hard to read on some monitors. Try Dark Orange for Gold instead.

Noted and fixed; thank you for the reminder. Good catch.

You're welcome to use anything I've posted in the previous thread (or Talya's stances thread). No sense in reinventing the wheel.

Awesome, thank you very much. If and when I do that, I will be sure to cite you (and anyone else I borrow from).

HunterOfJello

2012-10-28, 08:34 PM

I would probably downgrade Intelligence to black since it isn't absolutely necessary for a Swordsage character. As long as they have 10 intelligence (or 13 to get Combat Expertise if they're going for that feat line), then they'll be fine.

Strength could use a half-blue/half-purple designation since it can be dropped for a character who uses their feats to become highly Dex SAD. Once again, a character who goes for Dex SAD really only needs 8 or 10 strength. Strength that's too low will harm the character, but 8 is fine if you have Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade, and a method for turning a few Str based skills to use Dex instead (like Boots of Agile Leaping from the MiC).

It's also worth noting that Wisdom is worth slightly more to a Swordsage than Int is to Warblades and Cha is to Crusaders. Swordsages have more maneuvers that have DCs in them. A number of those DCs are actually absed on Wisdom, instead of strength or dexterity, which makes the stat increase in importance if you're going after those.

Full clarity is probably something worth attempting for stat analysis, but isn't absolutely necessary since there are lots of odd Swordsage builds.

~

Good luck on this! The world needs a good Swordsage handbook.

RFLS

2012-10-28, 09:52 PM

Hmmm....I'm inclined to agree with you about Strength; it's very much a hit-or-miss ability for Swordsages. I'm not so inclined to agree about Intelligence, though. It's something that every Swordsage should at least consider, and it puts you in good stead if you have a positive modifier. I will definitely keep this in mind, though. I'm aware I have a bit of a...predilection for smart characters.

As for Wisdom, I am in full agreement that it's important (moreso than the other adepts) for a Swordsage, but I couldn't quite justify gold to myself and I can't be damned to make a more granular rating system.

The criticism is much appreciated, though, even if it seems like I'm rejecting it. I'll be replying to all advice I get on the handbook, and will do my best to take everything into consideration. If I disagree, I'll do my best to explain my reasoning, and I'm never, ever going to reject an argument out of hand.

eggs

2012-10-28, 10:49 PM

The current all-blue stat breakdown doesn't seem especially useful. It's very clear that Charisma should be dumped and Dex should be raised, but the details aren't clear. (The confusion makes sense, because a Swordsage can be built to fill one of a fair number of roles, but it doesn't help much in character-building.)

It might be more useful to divide the early stages of stats and feats according to specific concepts or build-goals, like the PF Bard guide (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/test2), and to address the stats more concretely that way.

For instance, it might be a bit more manageable if the sections went (the contents aren't supposed to be advice, I'm just putting concrete things in here to illustrate format):

The Blender

The Blender is all about making a lot of attacks and making them hurt. This fighting style is centered around Two-weapon fighting for maximum sneak attack damage, using boosts and counters to supplement the attack routine and to keep the character alive.

Attributes:
Strength: It doesn't hurt, but it's at best secondary in combat abilities
Dexterity: This is everything to you. It's initiative, attack, damage and most feat qualifications all wrapped up in one.
Constitution: You're a melee character. Stay alive.
Intelligence: Doesn't factor into your combat routine, does f
Wisdom: Keep your AC up, as well as Will and scouting skills.
Charisma: Charisma isn't helping you at all.

Feats:
Adaptive Style - A necessary patch for the swordsage's recovery mechanic.
Shadow Blade - Required to consolidate the Swordsage's combat abilities onto Dexterity.
Staggering Strike - For use with Assassin's stance. Even more rider effects on a Swordsage's attacks just get hilarious.
TWF - Multiple attacks.
Improved TWF? - [Mention of Gloves of the Balanced hand, plus a call one way or another.]
Craven? - [Mention of its legality with Assassin's stance, reference at least in the context of a Rogue dip.]
Weapon Finesse? - [Mention of Feycraft weapons and a call one way or the other.]
Lightning Maces? - [Cautious mention of Aptitude shenanigans.]

[little blurb about favoring Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand boosts, Diamond Mind counters and maybe a splash of Desert Wind, mention of Rogue levels for Craven if Assassin's stance doesn't qualify]

[B]The Controller

The Controller is about hitting hard and throwing your enemies where you want them. It uses a reach weapon and makes heavy use of Trip feats and power attack damage.

Str>Con/Int>Dex/Wis>Cha
Attributes:
Strength: Primary combat stat
Dexterity: Primarily for Combat Reflexes, but added bonuses for AC and Init don't hurt at all.
Constitution: Frontliners need con
Intelligence: Trip feats tend to need it
Wisdom: Not using strikes for the damage boost, using counters and AoOs to patch defense. Not high priority, but more is always better.
Charisma: Not needed, not helpful.

Feats:
Adaptive Style: blurb
Improved Trip: blurb
Knockdown: blurb
Combat Reflexes: blurb
Mage Slayer: blurb
Pierce Magical Concealment: blurb
Robilar's Gambit: blurb
Three Mountains: blurb
Shared Expertise: blurb

[Little blurb about favoring Setting Sun maneuvers, mentioning a dip out for Barbarian or Crusader goodies]

The Skirmisher

...

[Then going into the holistic maneuver breakdown]

EDIT: Looks like this was addressed while I was posting. :smallredface:

RFLS

2012-10-28, 10:59 PM

Zaq

2012-10-29, 12:07 AM

Always happy to see a new handbook. Handbooking is hard work, so kudos for starting, and I hope to see you finish.

If you're looking for more things to add (because you wanted to create MORE work for yourself, right?), you might add a section on useful items for specific builds. Swordsages are so broad that it'll be hard to nail down items that work for all of them, but I'm sure you can make it work.

Lateral

2012-10-29, 12:45 AM

Reread Leaping Dragon stance- it's not a +10 bonus, it's a +10-foot bonus. That's effectively a +40 bonus if you're trying to make a high jump.

RFLS

2012-10-29, 12:54 AM

Reread Leaping Dragon stance- it's not a +10 bonus, it's a +10-foot bonus. That's effectively a +40 bonus if you're trying to make a high jump.

That's a good point, and I will edit the post to reflect that. However, I don't think that it's worth taking, and, on reflection, I realized that the Wind Stride stance boost from level 1 seems to be better in every aspect. I may have to downgrade this to purple unless someone has a reason not to (I suspect I'm missing something).

EDIT: I posted this and immediately realized that the Wind Stride stance is, in fact, a boost.

Darrin

2012-10-29, 06:04 AM

I'm reposting this from an older thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11918094&postcount=16), which was originally reposted from an even older thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184495).

Here's some excerpts from a "ranged ToB" project I was working on and haven't quite finished yet:

Maneuvers that can be used with Ranged Attacks

Desert Wind:
Blistering Flourish 1 (dazzles 30' burst)
Distracting Ember 1 (flank ally)
Flame's Blessing 1 (fire resistance)
Wind Stride 1 (+10' speed)
Fire Riposte 2 (counter)
Hatchling's Flame 2 (30' cone of fire)
Fan the Flames 3 (ranged touch attack)
Holocaust Cloak 3 [stance]
Zephyr Dance 3 (counter)
Firesnake 4
Dragon's Flame 5 (30' cone of fire)
Leaping Flame 5 (counter)
Ring of Fire 6 (area effect)
Rising Phoenix 8 [stance]
Wyrm's Flame 8 (30' cone of fire)
Inferno Blast 9 (60' burst)

Devoted Spirit:
Shield Block 2 (counter)
Defensive Rebuke 3 (boost, attack you or provoke AoO)
Aura of Chaos 6 [stance]
Aura of Perfect Order 6 [stance]
Shield Counter 7 (counter)

Diamond Mind:
Moment of Perfect Mind 1 (counter, Will save)
Stance of Clarity 1 [stance]
Action Before Thought 2 (counter, Ref save)
Mind Over Body 3 (counter, Fort save)
Pearl of Black Doubt 3 [stance]
Hearing the Air 5 [stance]
Moment of Alacrity 6 (boost, +20 init)
Quicksilver Motion 7 (boost)
Diamond Defense 8 (counter, any save)
Stance of Alacrity 8 [stance]
Time Stands Still 9

Iron Heart:
Absolute Steel 3 [stance] (+10' speed)
Iron Heart Surge 3
Iron Heart Focus 5 (counter)
Iron Heart Endurance 6 (boost)
Lightning Throw 8 (30' line)

Setting Sun:
Counter Charge 1 (counter)
Step of the Wind 1 [stance]
Baffling Defense 2 (counter)
Feigned Opening 3 (counter)
Giant Killing Style 3 [stance] (+2 attack, +4 damage vs larger foes)
Shifting Defense 5 [stance]
Scorpion Parry 6 (counter)
Ghostly Defense 8 [stance]

Shadow Hand:
Child of Shadow 1 [stance] (concealment)
Cloak of Deception 2 (invisibility)
Shadow Jaunt 2
Assassin's Stance 3 [stance]
Dance of the Spider 3 [stance]
Shadow Garrote 3 (ranged touch attack)
Shadow Stride 5
Step of the Dancing Moth 5 [stance]
Shadow Noose 6 (ranged touch attack)
Shadow Blink 7
Balance on the Sky 8 [stance] (air walk)
One With Shadow 8 (boost, incorporeal)

Stone Dragon:
Stonefoot Stance 1 [stance]
Roots of the Mountain 3 [stance] (+10 vs bull rush, DR 2/-)
Giant's Stance 5 [stance] (weapon one size larger)
Earthquake Strike 8 (20' burst)

Tiger Claw:
Blood in the Water 1 [stance]
Hunter's Sense 1 [stance]
Sudden Leap 1 (boost)
Fountain of Blood 4 (counter)
Dancing Mongoose 5 (boost)
Raging Mongoose 8 (boost)

White Raven:
Bolstering Voice 1 [stance]
Leading the Charge 1 [stance]
Lion's Roar 3 (boost)
Tactics of the Wolf 3 [stance]
White Raven Tactics 3
Press the Advantage 5 [stance]
Order Forged From Chaos 6 (move action)
Swarm Tactics 8 [stance]

Here's a sample maneuver progression for a ranged-based Swordsage 20:

Swordsage 1: Blistering Flourish, Distracting Ember, Wind Stride, Moment of Perfect Mind, Counter Charge, Hunter's Sense [stance], Sudden Leap
Swordsage 2: Flame's Blessing [stance], Mighty Throw
Swordsage 3: Cloak of Deception
Swordsage 4: Shadow Jaunt, Baffling Defense (replacing Mighty Throw)
Swordsage 5: Shadow Garrote, Giant Killing Style [stance]
Swordsage 6: Fan the Flames, Mind Over Body (replacing Blistering Flourish)
Swordsage 7: Fountain of Blood
Swordsage 8: Firesnake, Zephyr Dance (replacing Distracting Ember)
Swordsage 9: Dancing Mongoose, Shifting Defense [stance]
Swordsage 10: Dragon's Flame, Shadow Stride (replacing Shadow Jaunt)
Swordsage 11: Shadow Noose
Swordsage 12: Scorpion Parry, Moment of Alacrity (replacing Dragon's Flame)
Swordsage 13: Quicksilver Motion
Swordsage 14: Shadow Blink, Hearing the Air [stance], Ring of Fire (replacing Firesnake),
Swordsage 15: Raging Mongoose, Martial Stance: Stance of Alacrity
Swordsage 16: One With Shadow, Diamond Defense (replacing Ring of Fire)
Swordsage 17: Time Stands Still
Swordsage 18: Inferno Blast, Fool's Strike (replacing Wind Stride)
Swordsage 19: Mountain Tombstone Strike
Swordsage 20: Feral Death Blow, Balance on the Sky [stance], Tornado Throw (replacing Counter Charge)

Ruby Knight Windicator build

1) Cloistered Cleric 1. IL 0.5. Feat: PB Shot, Human: Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion
2) Swordsage 1. IL 1.5.
3) Swordsage 2. IL 2.5. Feat: Rapid Shot.
4) Swordsage 3. IL 3.5.
5) Crusader 1. IL 3.0.
6) RKV1. IL 5.0. Feat: Extra Turning.
7) RKV2. IL 6.0.
8) RKV3. IL 7.0.
9) RKV4. IL 8.0. Feat: Manyshot.
10) RKV5. IL 9.0.
11) Swordsage 4. IL 10.0. Maneuver: Dancing Mongoose
12) RKV6. IL 11.0. Feat: Greater Manyshot. Stance: Aura of Chaos.
13) RKV7. IL 12.0.
14) RKV8. IL 13.0. Caster Level 7, Divine Power.
15) RKV9. IL 14.0. Feat: Imp. Rapid Shot. Stance: Stance of Alacrity.
16) RKV10. IL15.0. Caster Level 9.
17) Swordsage 5. IL 16.0. Raging Mongoose, Stance: ???
18) Swordsage 6. IL 17.0. Time Stands Still. Martial Stance: Immortal Fortitude.
19) Swordsage 7. IL 18.0.
20) Swordsage 8. IL 19.0.

Races for Ranged Swordsages:

Aasimar (MM, FRCS/PGtF, Savage Progression article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)). Better suited to Crusader or Paladin/RKV builds, but as outsiders they are proficient with all martial weapons, including ranged. The Wis bonus is also nice. Level Adjustment is a little more forgiving in melee builds than for spellcasters, but there are two options to play an Aasimar with no Level Adjustment. First, the Player's Guide to Faerun has a Lesser Planetouched version with the same ability score adjustments (+2 Wis, +2 Cha) but changes the Outsider type to Humanoid with an Extraplanar subtype. This means the non-outsider Aasimar loses its proficiency with all martial weapons, but you can get that back along with the Outsider type by taking the Otherworldly feat at 1st level.

The second option is a Savage Progression article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) on Level-Adjusted Races that breaks the Aasimar down into a weaker version and one racial class level that can be taken later to restore the Aasimar's full racial abilities. This option still retains the Outsider type, +2 Cha, and is still proficient with all martial weapons (including ranged). You can take the racial class level sometime later or never take it at all, but if you wanted to, you'd get the rest of your racial abilities (+2 Wis, but no BAB, hit points, skill points, or better saves for that level).

Air Goblin (Unearthed Arcana (http://srd.realmspire.com/unearthedElementalVariants.html#air-goblins)). No ranged proficiencies and small size, but great Dex bonus with no Level Adjustment (+4 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Con). You can shift the Con penalty to Cha with the Arctic racial template (Dragon #306, +2 Con, -2 Cha). Also, this is one of the few LA +0 Dragonborn of Bahumat options (flying + ranged attacks = Death From Above) that still leaves you with a Dex bonus, although you lose the Breathless (Ex) racial ability.

Azurin (Magic of Incarnum). Close enough to human that it gets a bonus feat, but instead of extra skill points it starts with 1 point of essentia. Incarnum can be tough to fit into a ToB build because there isn't a lot of room to multiclass without losing 9th level maneuvers, and with ranged builds there aren't any feats to spare on Shape Soulmeld. However, there are a few soulmelds that work well for ranged attacks: Incarnate Avatar (Chaos, +1/essentia insight bonus on ranged attacks), Lucky Dice (+1 luck bonus on attacks and damage), and Sighting Gloves (+1 insight bonus on damage, +1/essentia). There are also a few soulmelds that offer ranged attacks (Dissolving Spittle, Frost Helm, Manticore Belt, Yrthak Mask). If you can squeeze in a dip into Incarnate or a Shape Soulmeld feat, then Azurin gives you an extra point of essentia. However, you may run into multiclass problems, since Azurin's favored class is Soulborn (*ugh*).

Elf (various). Like Skittles, you've got a rainbow of flavors here, but this is another way to get proficiency with bows for a Swordsage. The Dex bonus is of course great for ranged builds, but the Con penalty can be troubling if you plan on using a lot of Concentration checks for Diamond Mind maneuvers. The best subrace for Swordsages is Snow Elf (Frostburn, +2 Dex, -2 Cha). Wood Elf (+2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int) is also nice if you need to dip Ranger and want to avoid XP penalties for multiclassing. You can also shift the Con penalty to Cha with the Arctic racial template (Dragon #306, +2 Con, -2 Cha). If you're dipping into Cloistered Cleric for the Knowledge devotion, there are also two elven deities with the Elf domain (Point Blank Shot) and the War domain (Martial Weapon Proficiency/Weapon Focus: Longbow): Solonor Thelandira (generic elf pantheon) and Shevarash (FR-specific). If you're looking for Elf Domain + Travel Devotion, then Sehanine Moonbow is also a good pick.

Drow (MM, PGtF, Savage Progression article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)). The +2 LA isn't worth it, but the Lesser version in the Player's Guide to Faerun is very similar to the standard elf (+2 Dex, -2 Con) if you want the whole "I am all angst and emo!" flavor. They are proficient with the hand crossbow instead of all bows, but that's at least something to start with. This also works very nicely with the Hand Crossbow Focus feat (Drow of the Underdark p. 50, which is a nice two-for-one deal: Rapid Reload and Weapon Focus (Hand Crossbow). The Savage Progression article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) breaks down the Drow into some basic racial abilities and two racial class levels (basically nerfing their Spell Resistance and more powerful SLAs). However, they start with +2 Dex, +2 Int, and -2 Con. They are also still proficient with the hand crossbow. And, uh... yeah... I'm sure there's sections of the Underdark in the Arctic... (Dragon #306, +2 Con, -2 Cha).

Hadozee (Stormwrack). On the upside, +2 Dex, -2 Cha, and gets a bonus feat like humans... on the downside, you're stuck with the much-reviled Dodge, although this is one of the prereq feats for Master of Nine if you're going that route later.

Halfling, Strongheart (FRCS). Like humans, the bonus feat is invaluable. The Dex bonus, +1 size bonus, and +1 thrown weapon bonus ("He's got a pebble! Run!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html)) are all nice perks, but the smaller size means your damage goes down a step, which for a ranged build can be a significant disadvantage. However, a small-sized Martial Adept can take advantage of several stances that work against larger opponents, such as Stonefoot Stance (Stone Dragon 1), Giant Killing Style (Setting Sun 3), and Giant's Stance (Stone Dragon 5).

Human (PHB). You're going to be starved for feats, so every feat you can get your hands on is going to be invaluable. Human is also your best pick for multiclassing, since there aren't any races with Martial Adept classes as their favored class. Silverbrow Humans (Dragon Magic p. 6) get a bonus feat and the dragonblood subtype, but I can't recall if that would be all that useful for a Swordsage.

Neraph (Planar Handbook). If you want to play an outsider without Level Adjustment but don't have access to Lesser Planetouched races or the Savage Progression articles, then go with a Neraph. As a native Outsider, neraphim gain proficiency with all martial weapons, including ranged. The +2 natural armor bonus, +5 racial bonus on jump checks, and Neraph Camouflage/Charge (target loses Dex bonus on first thrown attack or charge) are also nice perks for a Swordsage build.

Raptoran (Races of the Wild). Actually a pretty poor choice for a Swordsage, but the Raptoran eventually does get flight (a game-changing ability for any ranged build), and treats the footbow as a martial weapon... which stinks for a Swordsage, since they aren't proficient with ranged martial weapons. To pick up all ranged martial weapons, you'll need to dip something like Fighter, Ranger, or Crusader. A footbow isn't that much different from a composite longbow, except if you draw with both hands you can get 1.5 times your Strength bonus on damage.

Tiefling (MM, FRCS/PGtF, Savage Progression article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)). Decent pick for a Swordsage if you can live without the Human/Azurin/Strongheart bonus feat (the Int bonus makes this a more ideal pick for Warblades). Like the Aasimar, there are two options for playing a Tiefling with no Level Adjustment. First, the Player's Guide to Faerun has a Lesser Tiefling version with the same ability score adjustments (+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha) but changes the Outsider type to Humanoid with an Extraplanar subtype. You also lose proficiency with all martial weapons, but you can regain this along with the Outsider type by taking the Otherworldly feat at first level.

Also like the Aasimar, the Savage Progression article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) on Level-Adjusted Races keeps the Outsider type but breaks down the Tiefling into a weaker version (+2 Dex, -2 Cha) with one racial class level. You can take the racial class level sometime later or never take it at all, but if you wanted to, you'd get the rest of your racial abilities (+2 Int, but no BAB, hit points, skill points, or better saves for that level).

Weapons/Magic Items/Enhancements for ranged combat:

Bone Bow (250 GP, Frostburn). Mechanically this functions the same as a Composite Greatbow[S], but it accommodates any Strength bonus without having to pay for each +1. If you use a lot of spells/powers/effects that changes your Strength score (bull's strength, rage, enlarge person, expansion, etc.), then this could be well worth spending a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency. It also offers the option to treat it as a martial weapon, but treating it as a non-proficient exotic weapon is actually better: you still take a -4 penalty, but you're not limited to one attack as a full-round action.

Elvencraft Bow (+300 GP, Races of the Wild). There are a variety of combination bow/melee weapons out there, but this is the simplest and cheapest. 300 GP and you can treat your bow as a club or quarterstaff even if you're still using it as a bow. If you're looking for something fancier, the MIC features three types of Swordbows (free action to switch), a Bowstaff (swift action to switch), and a Bladed Crossbow (no action to switch).

Footbow (150 GP + 100 GP/Str bonus, Races of the Wild). Pretty much identical to a non-exotic composite longbow. However, if you can fly and can draw it back with both hands, you can get 1.5 times your Strength bonus on damage. If you're a raptoran crusader, you'll want to pick up one of these, otherwise stick with a composite longbow.

Greatbow, Composite (200 GP + 200 GP/Str bonus, Complete Warrior). I think the Bone Bow is a better choice (cheaper, auto-adjusts to your Str bonus), but CWar is a more popular sourcebook. The 1 point of damage increase over a regular composite longbow may not seem like it would be worth a feat, but for a ranged build, you need as much extra damage as you can get your hands on.

Hank's Energy Bow (22600 GP, Animated Series Handbook or available online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a)). One of the few ways you can get something similar to Power Attack on a ranged weapon (but unfortunately does not offer the same damage multipliers). On top of that, it's an extremely versatile weapon that does not require any ammo, does an impressive 2d6 force damage, can use regular arrows, and can accommodate any Strength bonus.

Precise Shot (+1 enhancement, MIC p. 40). No need to take Precise Shot as a feat.

Horizon Goggles (8000 GP, Complete Mage p. 133) or Helm of the Hunter (9000 GP, MIC p. 194). Provides the Far Shot feat.

Splitting (+3 enhancement, Champions of Ruin p. 42). I can haz moar arrowz.

Ranged shield (+1 enhancement, MIC p. 13). Say it with me: "Freedom Prevails!"

Pitspawned template (+1000 GP, DMGII). +2 untyped bonus to confirm criticals.

Glove of Taarnahm the Vigilant (10000 GP, PGtF p. 123). Any held melee weapon gains the Throwing and Returning property.

Strongarm Bracers (6000 GP, MIC p. 139). Increase your weapon damage up one size category without mucking around with Powerful Build or Monkey Grip.

Bracers of Lightning (11000 GP, MIC p. 206). Adds the shock property to all your attacks, including ranged. Although somewhat expensive, in most cases it's probably cheaper to buy these bracers than trying to add another +1 property to an existing magic weapon. The biggest drawback is it takes a swift action to activate, and most ToB builds are going to need their swift actions for something else.

Crystal of Energy Assault, Lesser (3000 GP, MIC p. 64). Another great way to add +1d6 energy damage to your ranged attacks without spending a lot of gold. I recommend the Acid Assault, since fire, cold, and sonic damage can be added with spells, and electricity can be added with Bracers of Lightning.

Quiver of Energy (15000 GP, MIC p. 172). Adds 1d6 acid/cold/electricity/fire damage to 20 arrows.

Spells to add more energy damage to ranged attacks:

Burning Sword (Spell Compendium p. 41, Sor/Wis 2). Flaming burst weapon 1 min/level.

Frost Weapon (Frostburn p. 95, Clr/Dru/Sor/Wiz 2). +1d6 frost damage 1 round/level.

Sonic Weapon (Spell Compendium p. 195, Brd/Sor/Wiz 2). +1d6 sonic damage 1 min/level.

Energy Surge, Lesser (PHBII p. 112, Sor/Wiz 2). Swift action (Wand Chamber! +100 GP, Dungeonscape p. 34), add +1d6 energy damage (acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic) for 1 round.

RFLS

2012-10-29, 06:14 AM

Hm...I will definitely add a section on ranged Swordsages, I suppose. I didn't even know that that was a thing.... Anyway, thank you for the recommendation. While you're at it, do you have any ranged homebrew disciplines that you find particularly well done?

God Imperror

2012-10-29, 06:28 AM

Darrin

2012-10-29, 07:33 AM

Races

Elves - Bonus to Dexterity, along with Low-light vision and their immunities makes these guys Blue. The only reason they're not gold is the penalty to Constitution.

Snow Elf (Frostburn, Dex +2, Cha -2) and Painted Elf (Sandstorm, Dex +2, Int -2) should be gold. Their UA equivalents, Arctic Elf and Desert Elf, also get rid of the Con penalty: Dex +2, Str -2. In Core, Wild Elf is nice: Dex +2, Int -2.

Goblin - Very nice bonus to Dexterity, and the penalty to Strength can be dealt with. Small size is nice for the various bonuses, and, of course, Darkvision and Stealth bonuses are nice. These are in consideration for gold.

Air Goblin (Unearthed Arcana) would probably be gold: Dex +4, Str -2, Con -2. You can also add Dragonborn of Bahumat to them and still have a Dex bonus.

Halflings - These guys are pretty great. Small size, bonus to Dex, bonus to saving throws. The only thing that kept them from gold is the 20 foot landspeed. Someone can probably justify them being gold to me, though. Additionally, I would like a judgement on Strongheart halflings, as I don't own that book.

They trade their +1 to all saves for a bonus feat, like humans. Thus, they are solid gold.

Jungle Halflings (Unearthed Arcana) make for some interesting swordsages: poison use, if you want to do the whole assassin thing, and they gain martial proficiency with the throwing axe, handaxe, and shortbow.

Water Halflings (Unearthed Arcana) are even better: Dex +2, Con +2, Str -2.

Kobold - Pretty decent non-ability buffs, but a net -4 to abilities really hurts. There are probably some variants out there that buff this to blue or gold, though.

Desert Kobold (Unearthed Arcana) is gold: no Con penalty. If you're using the RotD Web Enhancement, an Unarmed Swordsage Kobold is *nasty*. Four attacks: unarmed strike/bite/claw/claw. Add Dragon Tail for a fifth attack. This is at *level 1*, mind you. Add TWF + Shadow Blade and they are quisinarts of mayhem and death.

Orc - This is not the race you're looking for.

As usual, Water Orcs (Unearthed Arcana) are better. They get a Con bonus, which helps with Concentration checks. With 6 skill points per level, Int is almost a dump stat, so the only real worry is that Wis penalty.

Warforged - These guys are black. They get a boatload of nice traits, but the hit to Wisdom really hurts.

...but that Slam attack makes TWF/Shadow Blade oh so juicy...

Other races to consider:

Hadozee (Stormwrack). You are Sun Wu-Effing-Kong. Dex +2, Cha -2. Also, Dodge as a bonus feat (one of the prereqs for Master of Nine).

Kenku (MMIII). Medium size, Dex +2, Str -2, two claw attacks, and a +4 flanking bonus.

Buomman (Planar Handbook). Wis +2, Cha -2. I'm not really fond of these things without Dragonborn of Bahumat to get rid of the speech impediment thing, but they are one of the few LA +0 races that gets a Wis bonus.

Neraph (Planar Handbook). Proficiency with all martial weapons (including ranged), +5 racial jump bonus, +2 natural armor, darkvision 60', and that whole Neraph Camouflage thing goes along so well with Assassin's Stance.

Teifling. Blue, maybe? There are two versions you can play without LA: Lesser Planetouched from Players Guide to Faerun, or the Savage Progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) version.

Tibbit (Dragon Compendium). Turn into a housecat, and then tear people apart limb from limb. How can that not be gold?

Talya

2012-10-29, 07:42 AM

On Swordsages and Strength:

If you're going for full attacks, even with the Shadow Blade feat, you do not really want to dump strength. I wouldn't prioritize it high, but it's worth noting with Shadow Blade that it adds your dexterity modifier in addition to your strength modifier. That means that on your main hand attacks, 14 str. and 14 dex gives you +4 damage, just like 18 dexterity and 10 strength does, except it costs you only 12 points on the buy instead of 18. (That doesn't factor in the to-hit bonus, just making a point here.) Furthermore, if you're using a spiked chain (the only 2h weapon on the shadow blade list), your strength modifier is multiplied by 1.5, while your dexterity modifier is not. (Conversely, for a two weapon fighter, you have the opposite advantage...strength modifier for your off-hand is multiplied by 0.5, whereas dex gives you the full bonus.) You certainly don't want strength as low as 8, no matter what you do, because that's -1 to damage on both hands that does apply even if using Shadow Blade.

I'd hesitate to ever put strength above 14, but there are reasons to not to dump it completely. Of course, if you're relying heavily on strikes, you really don't need a damage bonus at all.

Lateral

2012-10-29, 08:50 AM

That's a good point, and I will edit the post to reflect that. However, I don't think that it's worth taking, and, on reflection, I realized that the Wind Stride stance boost from level 1 seems to be better in every aspect. I may have to downgrade this to purple unless someone has a reason not to (I suspect I'm missing something).

EDIT: I posted this and immediately realized that the Wind Stride stance is, in fact, a boost.

Wind stride gives you a bonus to your land speed. That's equivalent to a +4 Jump bonus. Leaping Dragon gives you a ten-foot bonus to your Jump distances. That's equivalent to a +10 bonus on long jumps, and a +40 bonus on high jumps. The whole 'doesn't need a running start' thing is nice too.

Azimov

2012-10-29, 09:00 AM

Re: 4th level maneuver, Diamond Mind, Bounding Assault.

Its a double move specifically, meaning you can do all the things you normally could with a double move such as jumping, turning corners and (arguably) tumbling and climbing and things, many of which you cant do in a charge without having some form of erratic charge ability, most of which are mid to high on otherwise worthless classes such as Duelist (DMG).

I still don't think its that useful for a pure classed Swordsage, but it has a great deal of use with a charging focused character because it removes one of the chargers greatest problems (not being able to charge due to terrain). Id probbably list it as purple, maybe black moving up to gold if on a charger chassis.

Hope this helps

Kazyan

2012-10-29, 09:32 AM

Gnomes are probably black. Con bonus and small size will both enhance survivability, but the strength penalty is annoying.

Tibbit (Dragon Compendium). Turn into a housecat, and then tear people apart limb from limb. How can that not be gold?

With that -8 Strength penalty and pitiful weaponry in housecat form, you basically have to use the Diamond Mind strikes to do any damage, and then there's the part about Tiny size and reach. So you basically need to hoodwink your DM into thinking Shadow Blade replaces your strength score and that Fabulous Cats! was intended for PCs.

If your group will let you be Chaotic Evil, a 2-level dip in Soulborn removes the Strength penalty without hurting your BAB or survivability. But you'll probably need to chant exactly 108 Hail Diamond Minds as you write it on your sheet in ashes.

RFLS

2012-10-29, 09:36 AM

Feats like Battle Jump (http://dndtools.eu/feats/unapproachable-east--33/battle-jump--187/), or Leap attack (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-adventurer--54/leap-attack--1741/) can turn leaping dragon stance in the goldest of stances. Still it is one of the best stances for tiger claw (the 10 feet bonus on the jump + all jumps as running jumps is awesome).

If you don't have a running start (of at least 20 feet) the DCs for the jumps are doubled, and most abilities of the tiger claw rely on succeeding on a jump check, leaping dragon takes care of that.

Edit: Consider to bold and color the comments that you make, for example, if crushing weight of the mountain is gold for grapplers and you mention that, color it so it will catch the eye. (and maybe give someone the grappler idea)

I've added those two feats to the list of feats to talk about, and I will edit the text for Leaping Dragon to reflect what you've said. Between you and Lateral, Leaping Dragon will probably be bumped up a place or two to where it belongs.

Snow Elf (Frostburn, Dex +2, Cha -2) and Painted Elf (Sandstorm, Dex +2, Int -2) should be gold. Their UA equivalents, Arctic Elf and Desert Elf, also get rid of the Con penalty: Dex +2, Str -2. In Core, Wild Elf is nice: Dex +2, Int -2.

Air Goblin (Unearthed Arcana) would probably be gold: Dex +4, Str -2, Con -2. You can also add Dragonborn of Bahumat to them and still have a Dex bonus.

They trade their +1 to all saves for a bonus feat, like humans. Thus, they are solid gold.

Jungle Halflings (Unearthed Arcana) make for some interesting swordsages: poison use, if you want to do the whole assassin thing, and they gain martial proficiency with the throwing axe, handaxe, and shortbow.

Water Halflings (Unearthed Arcana) are even better: Dex +2, Con +2, Str -2.

Desert Kobold (Unearthed Arcana) is gold: no Con penalty. If you're using the RotD Web Enhancement, an Unarmed Swordsage Kobold is *nasty*. Four attacks: unarmed strike/bite/claw/claw. Add Dragon Tail for a fifth attack. This is at *level 1*, mind you. Add TWF + Shadow Blade and they are quisinarts of mayhem and death.

As usual, Water Orcs (Unearthed Arcana) are better. They get a Con bonus, which helps with Concentration checks. With 6 skill points per level, Int is almost a dump stat, so the only real worry is that Wis penalty.

...but that Slam attack makes TWF/Shadow Blade oh so juicy...

Other races to consider:

Hadozee (Stormwrack). You are Sun Wu-Effing-Kong. Dex +2, Cha -2. Also, Dodge as a bonus feat (one of the prereqs for Master of Nine).

Kenku (MMIII). Medium size, Dex +2, Str -2, two claw attacks, and a +4 flanking bonus.

Buomman (Planar Handbook). Wis +2, Cha -2. I'm not really fond of these things without Dragonborn of Bahumat to get rid of the speech impediment thing, but they are one of the few LA +0 races that gets a Wis bonus.

Neraph (Planar Handbook). Proficiency with all martial weapons (including ranged), +5 racial jump bonus, +2 natural armor, darkvision 60', and that whole Neraph Camouflage thing goes along so well with Assassin's Stance.

Teifling. Blue, maybe? There are two versions you can play without LA: Lesser Planetouched from Players Guide to Faerun, or the Savage Progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) version.

Tibbit (Dragon Compendium). Turn into a housecat, and then tear people apart limb from limb. How can that not be gold?

I will make these additions and modifications to the races list; each of the main races (elves and halflings for now) will receive their own subsection devoted to subraces. I'll also mention that Dragonborn can be applied in certain areas for nice results.

On Swordsages and Strength:

If you're going for full attacks, even with the Shadow Blade feat, you do not really want to dump strength. I wouldn't prioritize it high, but it's worth noting with Shadow Blade that it adds your dexterity modifier in addition to your strength modifier. That means that on your main hand attacks, 14 str. and 14 dex gives you +4 damage, just like 18 dexterity and 10 strength does, except it costs you only 12 points on the buy instead of 18. (That doesn't factor in the to-hit bonus, just making a point here.) Furthermore, if you're using a spiked chain (the only 2h weapon on the shadow blade list), your strength modifier is multiplied by 1.5, while your dexterity modifier is not. (Conversely, for a two weapon fighter, you have the opposite advantage...strength modifier for your off-hand is multiplied by 0.5, whereas dex gives you the full bonus.) You certainly don't want strength as low as 8, no matter what you do, because that's -1 to damage on both hands that does apply even if using Shadow Blade.

I'd hesitate to ever put strength above 14, but there are reasons to not to dump it completely. Of course, if you're relying heavily on strikes, you really don't need a damage bonus at all.

I will be editing the Strength entry to reflect both this and the reliance Stone Dragon and Setting Sun place upon it.

Wind stride gives you a bonus to your land speed. That's equivalent to a +4 Jump bonus. Leaping Dragon gives you a ten-foot bonus to your Jump distances. That's equivalent to a +10 bonus on long jumps, and a +40 bonus on high jumps. The whole 'doesn't need a running start' thing is nice too.

Gotcha, I see it now. Thank you for being patient with me, I get obtuse when I'm tired =P Like I said earlier in this post, I'll be editing Leaping Dragon later today to reflect what you've said. You've made a very good case for its utility.

Re: 4th level maneuver, Diamond Mind, Bounding Assault.

Its a double move specifically, meaning you can do all the things you normally could with a double move such as jumping, turning corners and (arguably) tumbling and climbing and things, many of which you cant do in a charge without having some form of erratic charge ability, most of which are mid to high on otherwise worthless classes such as Duelist (DMG).

I still don't think its that useful for a pure classed Swordsage, but it has a great deal of use with a charging focused character because it removes one of the chargers greatest problems (not being able to charge due to terrain). Id probbably list it as purple, maybe black moving up to gold if on a charger chassis.

Hope this helps

Ah, I see it now. I'll be bumping that up to black to reflect that utility; double move without weird constraints is definitely nice.

Thanks to everyone who posted their help/criticism/clarifications! I'll be doing my best to keep on top of this for the next few weeks, but I do have school. I'll be sure to respond to anything that's posted in the thread so that if I get behind, I can go look at what I've said at a later date. I don't want anything to get lost in the pile. Like I've said before, any contribution or criticism is more than welcome.

RFLS

2012-10-29, 09:40 AM

Gnomes are probably black. Con bonus and small size will both enhance survivability, but the strength penalty is annoying.

Aight. I'll be leaving that entry alone for now, but I agree that they're looking like they're just average.

With that -8 Strength penalty and pitiful weaponry in housecat form, you basically have to use the Diamond Mind strikes to do any damage, and then there's the part about Tiny size and reach. So you basically need to hoodwink your DM into thinking Shadow Blade replaces your strength score and that Fabulous Cats! was intended for PCs.

If your group will let you be Chaotic Evil, a 2-level dip in Soulborn removes the Strength penalty without hurting your BAB or survivability. But you'll probably need to chant exactly 108 Hail Diamond Minds as you write it on your sheet in ashes.

What book are Tibbits in? It looks like I need to go read their racial entry before I include something one way or another.

Darrin

2012-10-29, 10:20 AM

With that -8 Strength penalty and pitiful weaponry in housecat form, you basically have to use the Diamond Mind strikes to do any damage, and then there's the part about Tiny size and reach.

This is a good example where the image in my mind completely overrules anything about the actual rules implications.

So you basically need to hoodwink your DM into thinking Shadow Blade replaces your strength score and that Fabulous Cats! was intended for PCs.

You are perhaps aware that article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) is the cornerstone (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8235936&postcount=8) to how I equip pretty much all of my PCs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101)?

I've added those two feats to the list of feats to talk about, and I will edit the text for Leaping Dragon to reflect what you've said. Between you and Lateral, Leaping Dragon will probably be bumped up a place or two to where it belongs.

Just be aware that Battle Jump is very poorly worded... it turns any fall of 10' or more into a charge attack. If you have Pounce, then that becomes a full attack. This lets you turn any kind of movement that might result in a fall (short-range teleports, such as the Shadow Jaunt/Step/Blink line) into a full attack. And, well... there's a reason the thread where I first encountered this idea was called 4500 lbs of stupid (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863510/4500_lbs._of_Stupid?pg=1).

Ah, I see it now. I'll be bumping that up to black to reflect that utility; double move without weird constraints is definitely nice.

Black?!?! I'd say Blue, and if you have Pounce, that is definitely GOLD. (I've been trying to wait on commenting on the maneuvers section until you've finished putting them all in.)

What book are Tibbits in? It looks like I need to go read their racial entry before I include something one way or another.

Dragon Compendium, which I mentioned in parentheses in the original post.

Kazyan

2012-10-29, 10:36 AM

This is a good example where the image in my mind completely overrules anything about the actual rules implications.

If we're talking about fluff, Tibbit is always gold. :smallwink:

You are perhaps aware that article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) is the cornerstone (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8235936&postcount=8) to how I equip pretty much all of my PCs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101)?

No. No, I was not.

I was talking about Don't Mind Me, but this works too.

RFLS

2012-10-29, 10:57 AM

Just be aware that Battle Jump is very poorly worded... it turns any fall of 10' or more into a charge attack. If you have Pounce, then that becomes a full attack. This lets you turn any kind of movement that might result in a fall (short-range teleports, such as the Shadow Jaunt/Step/Blink line) into a full attack. And, well... there's a reason the thread where I first encountered this idea was called 4500 lbs of stupid (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863510/4500_lbs._of_Stupid?pg=1).

Black?!?! I'd say Blue, and if you have Pounce, that is definitely GOLD. (I've been trying to wait on commenting on the maneuvers section until you've finished putting them all in.)

Dragon Compendium, which I mentioned in parentheses in the original post.

In order- I'll keep that in mind on writing up the entry, I don't know why my brain is convinced that that's not that great, but it is great, so I'll fix it, and derp. I should have seen that.

The moral of the story is that, when you have a speech to write for class, don't start a handbook and then pull an all-nighter XD

Essence_of_War

2012-10-29, 11:01 AM

mrcarter11

2012-10-29, 11:13 AM

Random opinion time.

As far as I know, Diamond Defense is really just a yes button for saves, which DM gives you at level 1,2, and 3. Now granted, that's three maneuvers instead of 1, but I think there's a fair case, that you only need the Fort save one, at which point Diamond Defense should really be marked as purple or black.

Talya

2012-10-29, 11:16 AM

Essence_of_War

2012-10-29, 11:22 AM

It's worth having a maneuver known, I might not ready it regularly though.

Sidenote to the OP:

I'm not sure if you wanted to rate all the maneuvers on your own, but Draz74 spent a lot of time rating maneuvers for the previous version.

In case it's helpful. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10849308&postcount=5)

INoKnowNames

2012-10-29, 11:33 AM

Random Question: If Swordsages have the good Will Save, why is Moment of Perfect Mind good for them, despite the fact that Action before Thought is bad for them, when they have n equally good Reflex Save?

Essence_of_War

2012-10-29, 11:37 AM

I think that the reasoning has to do with the fact that usually will saves are "save-or-die/turn on comrades/be removed from combat" while reflex saves are "save-or-take-more-hp-damage".

You have a good ref save, and likely a high dex, you'll probably make the reflex save, but even if you don't it's not that big of a deal. Although you have a strong will save, and usually a good wis, a natural 1 still completely removes you from a combat.

Talya

2012-10-29, 11:42 AM

You have a good ref save, and likely a high dex, you'll probably make the reflex save, but even if you don't it's not that big of a deal. Although you have a strong will save, and usually a good wis, a natural 1 still completely removes you from a combat.

And the Diamond Defense maneuvers remove the natural 1 from being problematic, too. If your concentration check is high enough, a natural 1 will still beat most save DCs, and skill checks do not fail on a natural 1.

Essence_of_War

2012-10-29, 11:57 AM

I think that may be backwards, Diamond Defense doesn't remove the natural 1 danger, but the save-to-concentration-check maneuvers at 1,2,3 do, right?

Hunter Noventa

2012-10-29, 12:00 PM

A bit of a not on Burning Blade/Searing Blade/Inferno Blade. I agree that they have a low rating because of how common Fire Resistanct is, but it is one of those situational things. When you're playing an Undead-heavy campaign, 3d8+Level fire damage on every attack is pretty awesome. But i'll overall agree that the Desert Wind school is on the low tier.

RFLS

2012-10-29, 01:03 PM

For races, it would be worth including the Githzerai, and potentially, the Githyanki (both from XPH) for the sake of completeness and/or for players who have access to LA buy off, or can shunt the LA into one side of a gestaltFor races,

Githzerai were BORN to be swordsages. Although they have LA+2, they have a huge bonus to dex, and a bonus to wis. They have a number of useful psi-like abilities (notably free-augmented inertial armor!) and built in power resistance that comes to ~25% magic resistance against comparably leveled threats. Below average normally, but if you can negate the LA somehow they rise to at least recommended

Githyanki have LA+2, get boosts to dex, and con and a wis penalty, but they keep the power resistance and have an even more interesting list of tasty psi-like abilities. Below average normally, but if you can negate the LA, these could be at least average choices and potentially as high as recommended!

Additionally, I would consider adding these somewhat off-the-beaten-path races that have racial hit dice:

Thri-Kreen (non-psionic) - LA+1; RHD 2; ECL+3; Get tasty monstrous humanoid hit dice, increased movement, boosts to dex/wis/str and penalties to int/cha, natural armor and weapons, additional limbs (for MWF!) familiarity with a few interesting exotic weapons and a sick bonus to jump checks. These guys are begging to be Tiger Claw Jump/MWF focused swordsages.
Domovoi - (FB) LA+2; RHD 2; ECL +4; Fey hit dice aren't great, but they are small, and have huge bonuses to dex/wis/cha/int, bonus to con, and penalty to str. They also pick up some natural armor and very minor SLAs. Might make an excellent stealthy, infiltrator type swordsage.
Gnoll, Flind - (MM3) LA+2; RHD 2; ECL+4; Humanoid hit dice aren't great, but they pick up large bonuses to str/con, small bonus to dex, and get natural armor and familiarity with the flindbar. Could be an excellent controller swordsage.
Marrulurks - (SS) LA+1; RHD 3; ECL+4; These guys are quite powerful. They're small, they get monstrous humanoid HD big bonuses to dex/con/wis, bonuses to str/cha, natural armor, free 2d6 sneak attack, death attack, poison use, and a nauseating breath Su and some additional minor benefits from their marruspawn traits. Whoa. They do so much swordsage related work.

Ratings will vary if LA buyoff, gestalt, starting @ mid-higher levels etc are on the table. Both the Thri-Kreen and Marrulurk are probably worth a look even if you DON'T have access to Buyoff/Gestalt and jump to recommended if you do. The flind/domovoi are probably below average if you don't, but average to good choices if you do.

Dang, thank you. I was not looking forward to diving through the psionics books to do these races up. Are you okay if I largely C+P this into the races section?

Sidenote to the OP:

I'm not sure if you wanted to rate all the maneuvers on your own, but Draz74 spent a lot of time rating maneuvers for the previous version.

In case it's helpful. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10849308&postcount=5)

I was indeed aware of this, and I did read through it. However, I disagree with some of the assessments, and....well, honestly, the editing was terrible and it bothered me >.< I can be a little bit nit-picky, but there you go.

Random Question: If Swordsages have the good Will Save, why is Moment of Perfect Mind good for them, despite the fact that Action before Thought is bad for them, when they have n equally good Reflex Save?

Actually, thank you for asking that- it's because Reflex saves generally don't have that terrible an effect, whereas Will saves tend to be Save-or-Suck or Save-or-Die. As a melee character, you're target #1 for Will saves. I will add a blurb indicating the reasoning here in the OP.

A bit of a not on Burning Blade/Searing Blade/Inferno Blade. I agree that they have a low rating because of how common Fire Resistanct is, but it is one of those situational things. When you're playing an Undead-heavy campaign, 3d8+Level fire damage on every attack is pretty awesome. But i'll overall agree that the Desert Wind school is on the low tier.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying, honestly =/ If you're saying that the discipline is, on average, too low tier, I have to disagree. I'm judging based on average opponents, and the discipline's focus on fire damage just makes it lower tier than many of the others. Let me know if I missed your point, though.

Aegis013

2012-10-29, 01:14 PM

Essence_of_War

2012-10-29, 01:21 PM

Dang, thank you. I was not looking forward to diving through the psionics books to do these races up. Are you okay if I largely C+P this into the races section?
...
I was indeed aware of this, and I did read through it. However, I disagree with some of the assessments, and....well, honestly, the editing was terrible and it bothered me >.< I can be a little bit nit-picky, but there you go.

C+P away, that's what I wrote it up for :smallsmile:

I think you're certainly right about the editing, I just wanted to make sure you weren't being forced to re-invent the wheel from scratch :smalltongue:

Draz74

2012-10-29, 02:10 PM

I was indeed aware of this, and I did read through it. However, I disagree with some of the assessments,
So do I (the primary author of the old ratings). :smallamused: In some cases, other people outvoted my opinions. In other cases, the Handbook author simply editorialized. In a couple cases, my understanding of maneuvers' mechanics was faulty, and in a few final cases, my opinion has just plain changed since I wrote those.

So there's nothing sacrosanct about those assessments.

Of course, I'm sure I'll disagree with some of your latest assessments, too. In fact, from what I've seen so far, I'll disagree with them more often than I'll disagree with my own old work. :smalltongue: But oh well, such is the nature of Handbooks.

and....well, honestly, the editing was terrible and it bothered me >.< I can be a little bit nit-picky, but there you go.

I tend to pride myself on my correct spelling, correct punctuation, correct capitalization, and fixing of typos. So I hope you're referring to stuff that got inserted by other authors and/or didn't get copy/pasted correctly. If you're referring instead to the nonuniform grammatical contexts used to express emotions about various maneuvers, I apologize.

RFLS

2012-10-29, 02:43 PM

Small typo alert: the Dragonborn entry says "this is not the class for you" however Dragonborn is a template. I would substitute the word template or race in place of class for clarity.

Also, sorry to nitpick, but I don't feel like the misleading coloration of Holocaust Cloak is a good thing. In my opinion, color it as it is, and then just comment on how it can let you be Dread Pirate Roberts (which is admittedly quite cool).

Lastly, if there was a Cyan rating (great, but not incredible) in your handbook, I'd push for Distracting Ember to be pushed to that level. It's an incredible utility maneuver. You can spawn it repeatedly down hallways to see if it triggers traps, you can use it to set flammable materials on fire by summoning it onto the materials. If your DM allows, you can use it to illuminate dark areas, since I don't see any clause in the fire elemental entry saying it provides light like a torch or anything, but it's not an unreasonable thing to allow (my DMs have allowed it when I played SS's). You could include these uses in Distracting Ember's entry if you want to.

Edit: Great work overall, though!

I will quite probably take all of this advice; I keep balancing between blue and gold as is.

C+P away, that's what I wrote it up for :smallsmile:

I think you're certainly right about the editing, I just wanted to make sure you weren't being forced to re-invent the wheel from scratch :smalltongue:

Thank you thank you

So do I (the primary author of the old ratings). :smallamused: In some cases, other people outvoted my opinions. In other cases, the Handbook author simply editorialized. In a couple cases, my understanding of maneuvers' mechanics was faulty, and in a few final cases, my opinion has just plain changed since I wrote those.

So there's nothing sacrosanct about those assessments.

Of course, I'm sure I'll disagree with some of your latest assessments, too. In fact, from what I've seen so far, I'll disagree with them more often than I'll disagree with my own old work. :smalltongue: But oh well, such is the nature of Handbooks.

I tend to pride myself on my correct spelling, correct punctuation, correct capitalization, and fixing of typos. So I hope you're referring to stuff that got inserted by other authors and/or didn't get copy/pasted correctly. If you're referring instead to the nonuniform grammatical contexts used to express emotions about various maneuvers, I apologize.

I'll definitely be taking advice and changing rankings of the various maneuvers. For the editing, I was put off by the stances in the most recent of the unfinished Swordsage handbooks. It was less than ideal. I don't think I've read your assessment of the maneuvers yet.

Essence_of_War

2012-10-29, 02:49 PM

I'm a fan of a Cyan. It gives you a little more 'resolution' to show those choices that are better than 'above average' but aren't quite 'ZOMG YOU LITERALLY HAVE TO HAVE THIS'.

RFLS

2012-10-29, 03:55 PM

Cyan's been added in, and I'll go back at a later date and edit earlier posts to include the cyan rating. Currently, I want to get everything looking at least sort of finished before I fine tune.

On another note, skills are up. I only covered class skills; I'm considering adding a separate section for cross-class. Thoughts, everyone?

Draz74

2012-10-29, 04:02 PM

I'll definitely be taking advice and changing rankings of the various maneuvers. For the editing, I was put off by the stances in the most recent of the unfinished Swordsage handbooks. It was less than ideal. I don't think I've read your assessment of the maneuvers yet.

My assessment of the maneuvers was (mostly) copy-pasted into all of the previous handbooks that had analyses of the maneuvers. And as far as the Stance formatting goes, it seems to be nonexistent rather than poor, at least in the two copies of the Handbook that I can re-locate at the moment ...

Anyway ...

As far as advice goes, here's the things that have made me raise an eyebrow so far in your posts. I'm not going to offer explanations in general, but if you're curious about any of these, I can elaborate.

Dexterity - If Strength is "purple," then Dexterity is indeed "gold." However, for builds where Strength is "blue," or maybe even "black," Dexterity should be "blue." (Contrary to popular belief, it's very possible to build a good Swordsage that doesn't have Weapon Finesse, let alone Shadow Blade. On such a build, Dexterity doesn't affect anything except its defaults: AC, Reflex, initiative, and skills.)
Intelligence - drop to "black."
Charisma - upgrade to "purple" due to Intimidate combos.
Elves - drop to "black," or "blue" for subraces without a Con penalty.
Shifter - I want to believe they're blue, but in my experience they always end up too feat-starved to actually be cool. I'd say drop to "black" at best. :smallfrown:
Stance of Clarity - upgrade to "black."
Holocaust Cloak - I love Princess Bride as much as the next fellow, but people read Handbooks so that they can make good choices very, very quickly just by looking at the color coordination. Drop this to "purple."
Pearl of Black Doubt - drop to "black."
Roots of the Mountain - actually the best Stone Dragon stance for non-grapplers, mostly because of the anti-Tumble ability. Upgrade to "black."
Leaping Dragon Stance - already has been discussed quite a bit. Basically, "gold" if you focus your build on various Jump tricks heavily; otherwise "purple." Not much middle ground.
Hearing the Air - drop to "blue." Blindsight would be "gold."
Blistering Flourish - if this isn't "red," it's hard to imagine a maneuver that would be "red." This eats your standard action, and causes a very weak debuff -- it wouldn't be worthwhile even if it didn't offer a low-DC save to negate the effect. A Fortitude save. You know, the best save for most monsters.
Wind Stride - sorry, speed bias aside, this just isn't a good use of your swift action. Too many other swift action options for ToB characters. Drop to "purple."
Burning Blade/Searing Blade/Inferno Blade - have you done the math to see how much fire damage these things can add? It's a lot, especially for Inferno Blade. I can't see these as "purple," and even "black" feels harsh.
Dragon's Flame - drop to "red."
Wyrm's Flame - drop to "red."
Moment of Perfect Mind - drop to "blue." It's not that much better than Action Before Thought, which you call "red." After all, Swordsages already have good Will saves and good Wisdom.
Action Before Thought - upgrade to "black" or at least "purple." Especially when you have Evasion but not Improved Evasion, passing a Reflex save can make a HUGE difference.
Emerald Razor - drop to "blue"?
Bounding Assault - already discussed; upgrade to "black" (or "gold" for Pouncers).
Disrupting Blow - drop to "black."
Quicksilver Motion - outclassed by magic items that do the same thing. Drop to "black."
Counter Charge - upgrade to "black" or "blue."
Baffling Defense - "Blue" is good. You don't need to explain the caveat about "being a martial artist type" -- it's pretty obvious that the maneuver is only good if your Sense Motive skill is good. In fact, without a good Sense Motive, the maneuver drops to "red" rather than "black" or "purple."
Scorpion Parry - nitpick - BAB should be "3/4" rather than "3/5".
Hydra Slaying Strike - nitpick - actually does not do what it says on the tin at all. Hydras don't use full attacks.
Shadow Blade Technique - even if you don't roll high twice, this can let you crit more often. Possibly upgrade to "blue."
Drain Vitality, Shadow Garrote, Strength Draining Strike - I'd probably drop these by one category each, but they're all iffy.
Ghost Blade - "blue/gold"? Really?!? I'd rather use Sapphire Nightmare Blade. For a Level 6 maneuver, I'd definitely give this thing a "red" rating.
Stalker in the Night - nitpick - what synergy does it have with Spring Attack?
Enervating Shadow Strike - drop to "black." It's like Enervation, except it's higher-level and it offers a save.

EDIT: These suggestions were all determined pre-cyan ...

Talya

2012-10-29, 04:12 PM

Shadow Blade Technique is an awesome strike at any level, and even better at level 1.

It is true that you miss with your extra damage a lot.
But the odds of hitting with your primary attack (and even critting with it) are almost doubled.

Think of it this way:

If the strike was simply, "Make an attack, roll 2d20 and pick the higher result for the attack" it would be an excellent strike.

This is almost the same thing, but better.

RFLS

2012-10-29, 04:13 PM

Heh, it's okay. I can split the difference when you say something is on the edge of blue or orange, don't worry about it. It's going to take me a bit to go through all of your suggestions for maneuvers and stances, but for the ability scores, I will be reworking that section to indicate different builds.

Also, looking back, I don't know why I put elves at orange. It's silly. I'll edit the post to reflect that.

Thank you for the input; it's going to take me a while to work through it all, but it looks really well thought out. The only thing that stuck out at me was dropping Pearl of Black Doubt to black. Is there a reason? Stacking AC is a really, really nice thing as far as I can see. Don't get me wrong, I can see dropping it to blue or cyan, but not all the way to black.

RFLS

2012-10-29, 08:06 PM

Hey, I'm struggling with the Stone Dragon discipline; it's not one I've ever used extensively. Is anyone here familiar enough to deal with ratings on this one?

Boci

2012-10-29, 08:23 PM

Reguarding SBT, this maneuvres also increasing the chance of your boost augmented attack (like burning blade) hitting.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-10-29, 08:47 PM

I would definitely boost Counter Charge. It completely negates ubercharging and Pouncing.

Here's the thing... opposed Str *OR* opposed Dex, and your opponent has to use the same stat you do. Sure, chargers have uber strength, but their dex is often lacking. Wheras Dex is like THE primary stat for Swordsages. You shouldn't be failing this often. Plus you get a +4 if you aren't the same size they are, either direction.

It is like waving red flag in front of bull... then skewering it. Particularly if you have Shifting Stance going. Double particularly if you have a Spiked Chain AoO Tripper ally, since the extra movement can trigger an AoO.

Clever Positioning is also good for fishing for AoO's, as his movement is not a 5' step, so provokes AoO if an ally is in reach.

You mention that 3/4 BAB keeps Scorpion Parry from being Blue, however I'd also like to point out that with Weapon Finesse, free Weapon Focus, and Dex dependency, this is actually a lot easier than it would seem. And hey, there's nothing more lulz-worthy than making an opponent hit himself. Oh, plus he just missed you, so Shifting Defense just activated. Again.

Also, I think you miss the point of Shadow Blade Technique. This is basically "Roll twice and take the higher of two rolls" kind of maneuver, so this is VERY useful for hitting hard-to-hit opponents. And if you make both, hey, bonus damage.

Shifting Defense can easily go Gold if done right, because it can literally make you immune to melee damage. With all the ways a Swordsage has to negate attacks or generate misses (not to mention all the other ways to generate a miss, like with Lesser Cloak of Displacement or Ring of Blinking), you can very easily be set up next to an opponent, then when he uses the Full Attack action (which is a full-round action), you simply generate a miss and step out of his reach. You've now just completely wasted his entire turn. have a nice day.

Aegis013

2012-10-29, 08:50 PM

Hey, I'm struggling with the Stone Dragon discipline; it's not one I've ever used extensively. Is anyone here familiar enough to deal with ratings on this one?

I'll give it a shot. These are mostly personal opinion based on theoretical conjecture, as I've not gotten to use most of these in actual game play.

Level 1
Charging Minotaur It's a reasonably good maneuver. Moves you and deals pretty good damage as a bull rush to a foe. Blue if you have a good strength score, black otherwise.

Stone Bones This really isn't for Swordsages. It can provide some reasonably increased survivability for a single round, but you can do better elsewhere.

Level 2
Mountain Hammer This is really good. Ignore DR, hardness, and deal bonus damage. You can use it to smash foes, doors, or all kinds of other objects.

Stone Vice Mediocre damage and save or be unable to move. Unfortunately it doesn't work against fliers. Not too bad.

Level 3
Bonecrusher Pretty good bonus damage and Fort save versus +10 to confirm criticals. If you're a crit fisher, this can be a boon.

Stone Dragon's Fury Same damage bonus as Bonecrusher, but only against constructs and objects. Doesn't ignore Hardness, so Mountain Hammer will sometimes be better, you can use this in conjunction with Sunder.

Level 4
Bonesplitting Strike Deal an extra 2 constitution damage. The best part? No Save. Constitution damage is nasty. This is a really good maneuver.

Boulder Roll When's the last time someone you know used an overrun attack?

Overwhelming Mountain Strike Just like Stone Vice, but at this point the damage has really failed to keep up. You could do better.

Level 5
Elder Mountain Hammer Just like Mountain hammer but does 6d6 damage. Nice.

Mountain Avalache Hey a trampling attack. That's cool. Too bad the damage is pathetic at this level, even if you have a good strength.

Level 6
Crushing Vice Just like Stone Vice. The damage component still isn't keeping up very well, but it's trying.

Iron Bones A better version of Stone Bones, but still, you could do better. DR 10/adamantine for a round at the cost of your standard action is a steep price.

Irresistible Mountain Strike Deals mediocre damage, but has a chance to deprive your foe of their standard action. If you have a good strength score to boost the DC, this is blue , otherwise it's black.

Level 7
Ancient Mountain Hammer As Mountain Hammer, except 12d6 bonus damage. That's a fistful of d6's.

Colossus Strike Deals 6d6 additional damage, with a chance to knock the opponent back and prone. If you have good strength, this is good, if not, it's still not bad.

Level 8
Adamantine Bones At this level, it's a terrible exchange. DR 20/adamantine is quite a lot, but the action cost is too steep.

Earthstrike Quake This is good against swarms of mooks. If you can find a way to abuse that obstacles don't block line of effect it might be blue.

Level 9
Mountain Tombstone Strike No prerequisites. Does 2d6 con damage? No Save? Amazing!

There. I think I got them all.

Boci

2012-10-29, 08:57 PM

You mention that 3/4 BAB keeps Scorpion Parry from being Blue, however I'd also like to point out that with Weapon Finesse, free Weapon Focus, and Dex dependency, this is actually a lot easier than it would seem. And hey, there's nothing more lulz-worthy than making an opponent hit himself.

That's Fool's Strike. Scorpion Parry redirects the attack to another target in reach.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-10-29, 09:06 PM

That's Fool's Strike. Scorpion Parry redirects the attack to another target in reach.

"You can choose an opponent adjacent to you within the target's threaten area". The guy attacking you is adjacent to you. He threatens the square he is in. So yes, you can make him hit himself.

Boci

2012-10-29, 09:10 PM

"You can choose an opponent adjacent to you within the target's threaten area". The guy attacking you is adjacent to you. He threatens the square he is in. So yes, you can make him hit himself.

Clearly against RAI given the existence of the higher level Fool's Strike, and I'm pretty sure by RAW you do not threatan your own square (only adjacent ones), so unlikely to work either way, unless I'm mistaken on the threatan rules.

From the SRD:

Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.

The italisized part supports you, but the bolded part creates enough ambiguity to give the GM a RAW leg to stand on. Overall, you're may be right, but its clearly probably abuse of RAW so use of it in such a manner should be cautioned.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-10-29, 09:57 PM

Clearly against RAI given the existence of the higher level Fool's Strike, and I'm pretty sure by RAW you do not threatan your own square (only adjacent ones), so unlikely to work either way, unless I'm mistaken on the threatan rules.

From the SRD:

Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.

The italisized part supports you, but the bolded part creates enough ambiguity to give the GM a RAW leg to stand on. Overall, you're may be right, but its clearly probably abuse of RAW so use of it in such a manner should be cautioned.

You can make a melee attack with a light weapon in a grapple, which is decidedly in your own square. You can also attack creatures with a Reach of 0 while they are in your square. So I fail to see how you cannot threaten your own square.

Fool's Strike is an auto-hit if your attack roll was higher than your opponents. Scorpion Parry still has to hit his own AC, so while you could use Scorpion Parry to avoid being hit, he might still miss himself due to rolling poorly and missing his own AC. Fool's Strike does not have this problem.

Boci

2012-10-29, 10:09 PM

You can make a melee attack with a light weapon in a grapple, which is decidedly in your own square. You can also attack creatures with a Reach of 0 while they are in your square. So I fail to see how you cannot threaten your own square.

Simple. 1. The bolded part of the text I quoted exludes your own square from those you threaten. 2. The fact that you can only hit your own square in special circamstances (being grappled, when fighting a tiny creature) could be interpreted as you cannot, by default, make an attack into your own square.

Draz74

2012-10-29, 10:12 PM

Thank you for the input; it's going to take me a while to work through it all, but it looks really well thought out. The only thing that stuck out at me was dropping Pearl of Black Doubt to black. Is there a reason? Stacking AC is a really, really nice thing as far as I can see. Don't get me wrong, I can see dropping it to blue or cyan, but not all the way to black.
I guess I could see "blue." Basically, it just ends up being pretty darn situational. It only kicks in in battles where AC matters at all, but where you still get missed often. (That's a surprisingly narrow tightrope.) And then it only gets good if a large quantity of creatures is attacking (and missing) you. And then every time you take your turn, it resets.

Reguarding SBT, this maneuvres also increasing the chance of your boost augmented attack (like burning blade) hitting.
True, but usually you'll want to save such Boosts for when you're going to get a full attack anyway. Although I guess at low levels you have a good point.

Hey, I'm struggling with the Stone Dragon discipline; it's not one I've ever used extensively. Is anyone here familiar enough to deal with ratings on this one?

Level 1: Charging Minotaur, Stone Bones
Level 2: Mountain Hammer, Stone Vise
Level 3: Bonecrusher, Stone Dragon's Fury
Level 4: Boulder Roll, Bonesplitting Strike, Overwhelming Mountain Strike
Level 5: Elder Mountain Hammer, Mountain Avalanche
Level 6: Crushing Vise, Iron Bones, Irresistible Mountain Strike
Level 7: Ancient Mountain Hammer, Colossus Strike
Level 8: Adamantine Bones, Earthstrike Quake
Level 9: Mountain Tombstone Strike

Let me know if any of these need an explanation.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-10-29, 10:44 PM

Simple. 1. The bolded part of the text I quoted exludes your own square from those you threaten.Generally means that sometimes it is not true
2. The fact that you can only hit your own square in special circamstances (being grappled, when fighting a tiny creature) could be interpreted as you cannot, by default, make an attack into your own square.

Or it could be citing examples of the only situations in which you would normally want to hit your own square.

Since you can attack your own square, you also threaten it. Which means Scorpion Parry can be used to make someone hit themselves, assuming their attack roll was sufficiently high enough to hit their own AC. At least this is the position I maintain.

I suppose you'd probably want a ruling from your GM about this in either case. However making an opponent hit his ally is almost as lulzworthy as making him hit himself, so it's still an amazing maneuver, easily Blue.

Boci

2012-10-30, 08:50 AM

Generally means that sometimes it is not true

Yes, it also means default. So the logical reading would be by default, you threatan all adjacent squares. With the exceptions being when you wield a reach weapon or increase yoursize, which extends the amount of squares you threaten, or wield a ranged weapon/reduce your size which means you don't threatan any squares. As I said, RAW is ambigous at best.

rollforeigninit

2012-10-30, 12:03 PM

You might want to add a note on the elf racial entry about being eligible for the Eternal Blade PrC.

Dusk Eclipse

2012-10-30, 12:07 PM

You might want to add a note on the elf racial entry about being eligible for the Eternal Blade PrC.

Despite being an awesome prestige class, Eternal blade isn't worth it for a swordsage, heck they can't enter it until level 15 and even if you enter earlier at say level 12 (7 levels of a full BAB class and 4 levels of swordsage) you probably aren't focusing on swordsage and you are still missing Island in Time.

rollforeigninit

2012-10-30, 12:42 PM

Fair enough. Im AFB today.

RFLS

2012-10-30, 01:24 PM

Snow Elf (Frostburn, Dex +2, Cha -2) and Painted Elf (Sandstorm, Dex +2, Int -2) should be gold. Their UA equivalents, Arctic Elf and Desert Elf, also get rid of the Con penalty: Dex +2, Str -2. In Core, Wild Elf is nice: Dex +2, Int -2.

Air Goblin (Unearthed Arcana) would probably be gold: Dex +4, Str -2, Con -2. You can also add Dragonborn of Bahumat to them and still have a Dex bonus.

Jungle Halflings (Unearthed Arcana) make for some interesting swordsages: poison use, if you want to do the whole assassin thing, and they gain martial proficiency with the throwing axe, handaxe, and shortbow.

Water Halflings (Unearthed Arcana) are even better: Dex +2, Con +2, Str -2.

Desert Kobold (Unearthed Arcana) is gold: no Con penalty. If you're using the RotD Web Enhancement, an Unarmed Swordsage Kobold is *nasty*. Four attacks: unarmed strike/bite/claw/claw. Add Dragon Tail for a fifth attack. This is at *level 1*, mind you. Add TWF + Shadow Blade and they are quisinarts of mayhem and death.

As usual, Water Orcs (Unearthed Arcana) are better. They get a Con bonus, which helps with Concentration checks. With 6 skill points per level, Int is almost a dump stat, so the only real worry is that Wis penalty.

...but that Slam attack makes TWF/Shadow Blade oh so juicy...

Other races to consider:

Hadozee (Stormwrack). You are Sun Wu-Effing-Kong. Dex +2, Cha -2. Also, Dodge as a bonus feat (one of the prereqs for Master of Nine).

Kenku (MMIII). Medium size, Dex +2, Str -2, two claw attacks, and a +4 flanking bonus.

Buomman (Planar Handbook). Wis +2, Cha -2. I'm not really fond of these things without Dragonborn of Bahumat to get rid of the speech impediment thing, but they are one of the few LA +0 races that gets a Wis bonus.

Neraph (Planar Handbook). Proficiency with all martial weapons (including ranged), +5 racial jump bonus, +2 natural armor, darkvision 60', and that whole Neraph Camouflage thing goes along so well with Assassin's Stance.

Teifling. Blue, maybe? There are two versions you can play without LA: Lesser Planetouched from Players Guide to Faerun, or the Savage Progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) version.

Tibbit (Dragon Compendium). Turn into a housecat, and then tear people apart limb from limb. How can that not be gold?

Gnomes are probably black. Con bonus and small size will both enhance survivability, but the strength penalty is annoying.

With that -8 Strength penalty and pitiful weaponry in housecat form, you basically have to use the Diamond Mind strikes to do any damage, and then there's the part about Tiny size and reach. So you basically need to hoodwink your DM into thinking Shadow Blade replaces your strength score and that Fabulous Cats! was intended for PCs.

If your group will let you be Chaotic Evil, a 2-level dip in Soulborn removes the Strength penalty without hurting your BAB or survivability. But you'll probably need to chant exactly 108 Hail Diamond Minds as you write it on your sheet in ashes.

For races, it would be worth including the Githzerai, and potentially, the Githyanki (both from XPH) for the sake of completeness and/or for players who have access to LA buy off, or can shunt the LA into one side of a gestaltFor races,

Githzerai were BORN to be swordsages. Although they have LA+2, they have a huge bonus to dex, and a bonus to wis. They have a number of useful psi-like abilities (notably free-augmented inertial armor!) and built in power resistance that comes to ~25% magic resistance against comparably leveled threats. Below average normally, but if you can negate the LA somehow they rise to at least recommended

Githyanki have LA+2, get boosts to dex, and con and a wis penalty, but they keep the power resistance and have an even more interesting list of tasty psi-like abilities. Below average normally, but if you can negate the LA, these could be at least average choices and potentially as high as recommended!

Additionally, I would consider adding these somewhat off-the-beaten-path races that have racial hit dice:

Thri-Kreen (non-psionic) - LA+1; RHD 2; ECL+3; Get tasty monstrous humanoid hit dice, increased movement, boosts to dex/wis/str and penalties to int/cha, natural armor and weapons, additional limbs (for MWF!) familiarity with a few interesting exotic weapons and a sick bonus to jump checks. These guys are begging to be Tiger Claw Jump/MWF focused swordsages.
Domovoi - (FB) LA+2; RHD 2; ECL +4; Fey hit dice aren't great, but they are small, and have huge bonuses to dex/wis/cha/int, bonus to con, and penalty to str. They also pick up some natural armor and very minor SLAs. Might make an excellent stealthy, infiltrator type swordsage.
Gnoll, Flind - (MM3) LA+2; RHD 2; ECL+4; Humanoid hit dice aren't great, but they pick up large bonuses to str/con, small bonus to dex, and get natural armor and familiarity with the flindbar. Could be an excellent controller swordsage.
Marrulurks - (SS) LA+1; RHD 3; ECL+4; These guys are quite powerful. They're small, they get monstrous humanoid HD big bonuses to dex/con/wis, bonuses to str/cha, natural armor, free 2d6 sneak attack, death attack, poison use, and a nauseating breath Su and some additional minor benefits from their marruspawn traits. Whoa. They do so much swordsage related work.

Ratings will vary if LA buyoff, gestalt, starting @ mid-higher levels etc are on the table. Both the Thri-Kreen and Marrulurk are probably worth a look even if you DON'T have access to Buyoff/Gestalt and jump to recommended if you do. The flind/domovoi are probably below average if you don't, but average to good choices if you do.

Just gathering up all the stuff on races; you can basically ignore this post. This'll be the last pass at the races section for a bit, so if you think something should be in there, say so now.

Zaq

2012-10-30, 02:33 PM

I'm going to make a race recommendation that I've made before in other places, because they're still obscure and I still love them. Muckdwellers, from Serpent Kingdoms. They're Tiny and have a penalty to STR (–6) and WIS (–2), but they also have a +6 DEX, +3 NA, a bite attack, a squirt attack, a swim speed, the ability to use DEX instead of STR for swimming, and Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat (which is a huge deal at level 1, since Swordsages can't otherwise get that then). Plus, Tiny isn't always a bad thing (it gives you a big bonus to hit and to AC, after all, and a Swordsage probably isn't relying on weapon dice for a majority of their damage). They're also ECL 0 (0 LA, 0 RHD).

Also, if I may offer my opinion on the rating scheme, I feel like you might be a little bit too free with your gold ratings. To me, gold is something that's basically class-defining (or perhaps at least character-defining). "You're flat-out doing it wrong if you don't take this" is the message I get from a gold rating, and I don't feel like everything you're rating gold deserves that. If something's simply "really good, useful on almost everyone (or killer on a specific, common/general build)," I'd call that sky blue. To me, if a player chooses not to take a sky blue option, they're probably less than optimal, but they might just be going for something unusual; if they choose not to take a gold option, they're actively gimping themselves, and they should have to defend their choice if they want to be considered to have a good build.

Options like that don't come up very often, and are usually really fundamental (e.g., Power Attack on a Barbarian or other full-BAB melee guy; the class/build just doesn't function well without it) or really, really stand-out relative to everything else around them (e.g., if I may pull from what you've been waiting for, Fog from the Void on the Truenamer's LPM list; no other LPM utterance even comes CLOSE to being as useful until level 20, when Conjunctive Gate kicks in—until then, it provides a huge benefit that the class otherwise completely lacks, and it does it well). I don't feel like that's the case with your ratings.

In the case of the Swordsage, I'd personally say that a good example of the split might be something like Shadow Blade and Adaptive Style. Shadow Blade is sky blue: it's very powerful, it's useful for at least a plurality of Swordsages, and there are many Swordsage builds that use it as a cornerstone, but it's not a no-brainer option for every character (you might have good STR and not really need it, you might not favor Shadow Hand stances/weapons, you might want to spend your feats elsewhere, etc.), and it's competing for feat space with plenty of other strong options. It's very strong, but it's not mandatory to be effective/optimized. Adaptive Style, on the other hand, is gold: there's nothing else that has quite as large an effect on your staying power for the same cost, it fixes a major flaw in the class, and it's pretty darn hard to call a Swordsage optimized if you don't have it.

Now, your value system may be different from mine. You may be 100% comfortable having the highest rating just mean "really good" and not "DEFINING AND NEARLY MANDATORY." It's your guide, and it's not like I'll respect it any less if you choose to keep your current ratings (handbooking is, as I have said, hard work, and you'll always get differences of opinion). That said, I feel like the guide might be stronger if the distinction between the two is made. If you want to break things down into conditionals (though I warn you that it's a LOT of extra work to do so consistently), I could see you saying "this is black for the general case, sky blue for this style of build, and character-definingly gold for this other style of build," thereby acknowledging that certain builds will treat maneuvers/stances/feats/etc. as more fundamental than others will (for instance, a high-DEX, high-STR build will get a nice boost out of Shadow Blade, while a high-DEX, low-STR build will find it basically required to keep their damage up), but I would find it easier (and probably more readable) to give something like that a blue or sky blue rating for the general case, perhaps just calling out that it's better for other builds.

I hope that what I'm saying still makes sense. I may have gotten bogged down a bit there. My main point is that I think gold should be reserved for the really incredibly important stuff, not just for everything that's good. Feel free to consider or dismiss my opinion as you will.

RFLS

2012-10-30, 03:59 PM

I hope that what I'm saying still makes sense. I may have gotten bogged down a bit there. My main point is that I think gold should be reserved for the really incredibly important stuff, not just for everything that's good. Feel free to consider or dismiss my opinion as you will.

I don't feel that you got bogged down, and I agree that it's an important distinction to make. I'll be leaving the races as they are, because there's never really a "right" race, but when it comes to stances/maneuvers/feats/skills and other character options, gold will be reserved for "even if it looks like an option (adaptive style), it's really a class feature." I have yet to edit the stances and first 4 maneuver sections to reflect the addition of cyan (which I should have included from the beginning), but I will indeed be downgrading quite a few golds, especially in the stance section (if memory serves, Stance of Alacrity is really the only one that earns it).

RFLS

2012-10-30, 05:23 PM

Tiger Claw maneuvers are up! Damn, I never realized how goofy that school was until now. Regardless, I had fun (and now I want to play a TWF Warblade). Hm...TWFing is broken. *originalthought*

RFLS

2012-10-30, 07:20 PM

Reread Leaping Dragon stance- it's not a +10 bonus, it's a +10-foot bonus. That's effectively a +40 bonus if you're trying to make a high jump.

Re: 4th level maneuver, Diamond Mind, Bounding Assault.

Its a double move specifically, meaning you can do all the things you normally could with a double move such as jumping, turning corners and (arguably) tumbling and climbing and things, many of which you cant do in a charge without having some form of erratic charge ability, most of which are mid to high on otherwise worthless classes such as Duelist (DMG).

I still don't think its that useful for a pure classed Swordsage, but it has a great deal of use with a charging focused character because it removes one of the chargers greatest problems (not being able to charge due to terrain). Id probbably list it as purple, maybe black moving up to gold if on a charger chassis.

As far as I know, Diamond Defense is really just a yes button for saves, which DM gives you at level 1,2, and 3. Now granted, that's three maneuvers instead of 1, but I think there's a fair case, that you only need the Fort save one, at which point Diamond Defense should really be marked as purple or black.

Lastly, if there was a Cyan rating (great, but not incredible) in your handbook, I'd push for Distracting Ember to be pushed to that level. It's an incredible utility maneuver. You can spawn it repeatedly down hallways to see if it triggers traps, you can use it to set flammable materials on fire by summoning it onto the materials. If your DM allows, you can use it to illuminate dark areas, since I don't see any clause in the fire elemental entry saying it provides light like a torch or anything, but it's not an unreasonable thing to allow (my DMs have allowed it when I played SS's). You could include these uses in Distracting Ember's entry if you want to.

Stance of Clarity - upgrade to "black."
Holocaust Cloak - I love Princess Bride as much as the next fellow, but people read Handbooks so that they can make good choices very, very quickly just by looking at the color coordination. Drop this to "purple."
Pearl of Black Doubt - drop to "black."
Roots of the Mountain - actually the best Stone Dragon stance for non-grapplers, mostly because of the anti-Tumble ability. Upgrade to "black."
Leaping Dragon Stance - already has been discussed quite a bit. Basically, "gold" if you focus your build on various Jump tricks heavily; otherwise "purple." Not much middle ground.
Hearing the Air - drop to "blue." Blindsight would be "gold."
Blistering Flourish - if this isn't "red," it's hard to imagine a maneuver that would be "red." This eats your standard action, and causes a very weak debuff -- it wouldn't be worthwhile even if it didn't offer a low-DC save to negate the effect. A Fortitude save. You know, the best save for most monsters.
Wind Stride - sorry, speed bias aside, this just isn't a good use of your swift action. Too many other swift action options for ToB characters. Drop to "purple."
Burning Blade/Searing Blade/Inferno Blade - have you done the math to see how much fire damage these things can add? It's a lot, especially for Inferno Blade. I can't see these as "purple," and even "black" feels harsh.
Dragon's Flame - drop to "red."
Wyrm's Flame - drop to "red."
Moment of Perfect Mind - drop to "blue." It's not that much better than Action Before Thought, which you call "red." After all, Swordsages already have good Will saves and good Wisdom.
Action Before Thought - upgrade to "black" or at least "purple." Especially when you have Evasion but not Improved Evasion, passing a Reflex save can make a HUGE difference.
Emerald Razor - drop to "blue"?
Bounding Assault - already discussed; upgrade to "black" (or "gold" for Pouncers).
Disrupting Blow - drop to "black."
Quicksilver Motion - outclassed by magic items that do the same thing. Drop to "black."
Counter Charge - upgrade to "black" or "blue."
Baffling Defense - "Blue" is good. You don't need to explain the caveat about "being a martial artist type" -- it's pretty obvious that the maneuver is only good if your Sense Motive skill is good. In fact, without a good Sense Motive, the maneuver drops to "red" rather than "black" or "purple."
Scorpion Parry - nitpick - BAB should be "3/4" rather than "3/5".
Hydra Slaying Strike - nitpick - actually does not do what it says on the tin at all. Hydras don't use full attacks.
Shadow Blade Technique - even if you don't roll high twice, this can let you crit more often. Possibly upgrade to "blue."
Drain Vitality, Shadow Garrote, Strength Draining Strike - I'd probably drop these by one category each, but they're all iffy.
Ghost Blade - "blue/gold"? Really?!? I'd rather use Sapphire Nightmare Blade. For a Level 6 maneuver, I'd definitely give this thing a "red" rating.
Stalker in the Night - nitpick - what synergy does it have with Spring Attack?
Enervating Shadow Strike - drop to "black." It's like Enervation, except it's higher-level and it offers a save.

Shadow Blade Technique is an awesome strike at any level, and even better at level 1.

I would definitely boost Counter Charge. It completely negates ubercharging and Pouncing.

Here's the thing... opposed Str *OR* opposed Dex, and your opponent has to use the same stat you do. Sure, chargers have uber strength, but their dex is often lacking. Wheras Dex is like THE primary stat for Swordsages. You shouldn't be failing this often. Plus you get a +4 if you aren't the same size they are, either direction.

Clever Positioning is also good for fishing for AoO's, as his movement is not a 5' step, so provokes AoO if an ally is in reach.

You mention that 3/4 BAB keeps Scorpion Parry from being Blue, however I'd also like to point out that with Weapon Finesse, free Weapon Focus, and Dex dependency, this is actually a lot easier than it would seem. And hey, there's nothing more lulz-worthy than making an opponent hit himself. Oh, plus he just missed you, so Shifting Defense just activated. Again.

Shifting Defense can easily go Gold if done right, because it can literally make you immune to melee damage. With all the ways a Swordsage has to negate attacks or generate misses (not to mention all the other ways to generate a miss, like with Lesser Cloak of Displacement or Ring of Blinking), you can very easily be set up next to an opponent, then when he uses the Full Attack action (which is a full-round action), you simply generate a miss and step out of his reach. You've now just completely wasted his entire turn. have a nice day.

Yet another post just gathering up all the replies on a specific topic. This one is to update the maneuvers and stances lists. Given that many of them were made before Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon were up, and a few before Setting Sun was up, I would appreciate some more criticism on those schools. Additionally, suggestions for feats would be ideal

zlefin

2012-10-30, 07:47 PM

Only in the average for power; the Great Cleave feat has synergy with a number of the tiger claw stances.
As with great cleave, it's mostly useful when there's a lot of mooks or lesser foes around; but when they're gumming things up it's handy.

Great cleave + wolf pack tactics can let you clear through a pile of mooks blocking your path to someone importan; and it doesn't even take up attacks (note that wolf pack tactics lets you move five feet, it's NOT a five foot step, and triggers AoOs differently).

There's also a particular though uncommon situation with the level 7 tiger claw stance: if you can get next to one important tough enemy, and also a bunch of mooks; you can great cleave through all the mooks, and for each one you kill with great cleave, you generate an AoO from the stance that you can use against the big guy.

another side note on wolf pack tac - if you hit with AoOs or have any other means of attacking outside your turn, you can use it to reposition when it's not your turn; there's bound to be some handy tricks with that.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-10-30, 08:21 PM

Feat Suggestions for a Swordsage:

Really, you have to look at feat synergies. You can very easily run yourself dry, the Swordsage is one of those classes who could benefit from a great many number of feats. However, some options:

Weapon Finesse. Depending on your build, this can be anywhere between red and gold. If you are planning on dumping Str, then this is pure gold, because it's an effective bonus of the difference between your Str mod and your Dex mod. For a Strongheart Halfling (one of my favorite choices), with a Str of 6 and a Dex of 20, this is a net gain of +7.

Shadow Blade. If you are dumping Strength, this can keep your damage output relevant, for many of the same reasons as above. However, many GMs will point out that you add your Dex , but not necessarily replace Str, to damage... thus if you have a penalty to Str, you could end up with a net +3 instead of a -2. Still a +5 damage on every swing, but not as amazing.

These two paired up means you can completely dump strength. Is it worth the two-feat investment? Well... that depends on how your dice liked you.

Two-Weapon Fighting. Normally a trap, but a Swordsage can make this work. Synergizes VERY well with Tiger Claw (more extra attacks) and Shadow Hand (more precision-based damage per swing). Also does very well with a Rogue dip for some more sneak attack. So anywhere from Red to Blue, depending on your build.

Snap Kick. Blue at least for Unarmed Swordsages. More attacks is more better, and this one lets you get additional attacks even with a standard attack or even maneuver initiation.

Stone Power. Highly situational. Taking a penalty on attack rolls can be painful for the 3/4 BAB Swordsage, but temporary hit points which renews every round is pretty compelling for defense.

Shards of Granite. Since you're already taking a penalty to get mitigation of damage every round, you might as well bypass all DR and Hardness while you are at it. If you get Stone Power, there is absolutely no reason to not pick this up. In general, however, Stone Power + Shards of Granite is more of a Warblade or Crusader kind of thang.

Sudden Recovery. Blue. Oh crap, I need that maneuver again, right now! Done.

Rapid Attacks. Red. +1d6 only on your first round of attacks is not worth a feat.

Desert Wind Dodge. Either black or Blue. Basically, this is in every way superior to Dodge, and can be used to qualify for Mobility. Generally used to qualify for Shadowdancer or similar PrC's with Mobility as a prereq. However, triggering Desert Wind Dodge is a LOT easier, and more generally applicable. Basically, it's an effective +1 to AC and +1 fire damage per attack.

Adaptive Style. Cyan. Swordsages, more than anyone else, can get screwed by poor maneuver selection. This lets you switch them out with a full round action. So, to compare, would you take a feat to let a wizard swap out his spells memorized list in a full round action? Yea, it's really kinda like that.

eggs

2012-10-31, 03:08 AM

On some of the feats, I often try to grab things like Knockback, Knockdown, Staggering Strikes and other rider effects that trigger on strikes, just to make them that much more problematic.

I don't want to say Dodge and Mobility aren't awful feats, but they might deserve to be vaguely gestured at as a special case of awful feats, since they're needed for quite a few abilities that the Swordsage can use well (eg. Elusive Target, Defensive Throw, Shadowdancer, Telflammar Shadowlord).

On classes and PrCs, the big ones I think of fall into a few categories:

Feats (Every Swordsage is starving for them; two levels can help enormously) - Feat Rogue, Monk, Psychic Warrior, Fighter, Barbarian (UA variants).
Stat Consolidation (The Swordsage can have some real problems with sprawling stat requirements) - Shiba Protector, Soldier of Light [+Serenity] (Unearthed Arcana Monks' and Barbarians' no-requirement bonus feats also, to a certain extent)
Skill-expansion (The Swordsage has a lot of skill points, but not usually the abilities or class skills to fill a scout role, unless it dips out early): Rogue, Feat Rogue, Trapfinding Ranger, Factotum, maybe Ninja (probably not).
Plus the just nifty PrCs that might suggest particular builds, like Telflammar Shadowlords, Nentyar Hunters, Unseelie Dark Hunters, Umbral Disciples, Chameleons, Warminds and so forth. Or Ur-Priest or Apostle of Peace, but they don't tend to really be about the Swordsage.

Darrin

2012-10-31, 07:55 AM

Burning Blade: It's not bad early on, when few things have fire resistance or outright immunity. This goes to purple or red later on, though.
[...]
Searing Blade: Eh. Bonus damage, but it's fire.
[...]
Inferno Blade; Same as before. Skip it.

I don't quite understand the hate for these boosts. Actually, at higher levels, there's a good chance your IL is going to be above "fire resistance 10", so they do stay useful later. And while fire resistance/immunity is the most common, these boosts are GOLD on anything that is vulnerable to fire. I'd grade these as maybe Cyan or Blue, but I guess I can live with Black.

Fire Riposte: It's fire damage, you spend your swift action for the round, and you have to get hit. Less than ideal.

Touch attack, though. I'd consider upgrading this to black. 14 average fire damage on a touch attack is pretty good for a level 2 maneuver. The biggest strike against it (other than the fire damage) is the damage doesn't scale.

Death Mark: This is oddly nice, but it's very situational, and requires you to be in a less than ideal position to be used to maximum potential.

I like this one more than I should. Good for clearing out mooks (so long as they're flammable). I'm not sure what you mean by "less than ideal position", though... however, Swordsages are very good at getting into ideal positions. The real headache with this strike is trying to determine where the blast originates from (the text is no help here), so you'll have to check with your DM on how he wants to handle that.

Searing Charge: This is really pushing blue, to be honest. However, charging will generally not be your thing.

I might knock this down to Purple. The extra damage is nice (barring resistance/immunity), but flying with perfect maneuverability is pointless if you still have to charge in a straight line. All this does is let you fly over pits, which you could just Jump over normally.

Leaping Flame: This is blue because I'm intrigued, and it seems useful. However, I can't think of anything but the obvious situation where this is useful. The best I've got is going after casters who're throwing rays around. This will probably go to black.

I'd keep it Blue. It's a teleport effect that causes archers and ray-casters to have an "I need to change my underwear" moment. Can also be used by allies to teleport you over obstacles (hopefully with blunted arrows/etc.).

Mind Strike: I am undecided on this; however, ability damage is always a good thing. The very worst is that you drop the critter's Will save.

No, the very worst is that your opponent makes his Will save, and you wasted a standard action doing normal damage when you could have been doing something more interesting. I'd consider downgrading to purple.

Avalanche of Blades: This is nice. It goes to somewhere past gold if you're using Lightning Mace cheese.

Also, unlike Whirlwind Attack, it doesn't have a clause preventing extra attacks, so you can perform the "Bag of Rats" + Cleave trick to get a bunch of free attacks.

Stalking Shadow: Unless I'm missing something, this is purple because it is, in every way, worse than Mirrored Pursuit.

Worse enough that it should probably be red.

Tornado Throw: Run around really fast and throw people? Yes please. This goes goes beyond gold if you're already a focused tripper build.

Didn't someone make a build that pumps up their speed to some ungawdly number, and then throws their opponent a few dozen hundred times?

Shadow Blade Technique: Basically, doubles your chances to hit, and gives a little bonus damage if you hit with both.

Note: If you have any weapons/abilities that trigger on a crit, this doubles your chances of activating it. Combine with the Better Lucky Than Good feat to turn natural 1's into 20's, and your Vorpal Nailclipper goes from a 5% chance to decapitate to... uh... (bad with probability)... 20%ish?

Bloodletting Strike: This is pretty good to take if you're a melee fighter; towards higher levels, that's a lot of HP lost from the Con loss.

I'd be tempted to call this one Gold... you're guaranteed 2 points of Con damage, so it's the equivalent of Bonesplitting Strike. At the very least, Cyan.

Shadow Stride: Most enjoyable. You can teleport right next to an opponent and use one of your standard action strikes. Again, high out of combat utility. It's an Ex ability, so enjoy teleports in anti-magic fields.

Gold. Of the three Shadow Jaunt/Strike/Step, this is probably the most useful, since it's a move action. While Shadow Stride as a swift might seem like the best of the three, it has to compete with all the other things you want to use a swift action for.

Stalker in the Night: This is...odd. I'm not quite sure what to make of it. However, if you've boosted your stealth skills, and you have Spring Attack, this goes to gold.

I don't see how this is compatable with Spring Attack.

Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike: This is really, really good. Take this. It hurts no mater what happens, as long as you hit on the attack.

I'm more Blue or Cyan on this... the 15d6 does an average of 52.5 damage, and the other effects depend quite a bit on a failed Fort save, which most CR-equivalents are going to make without breaking a sweat. The best feature of this attack is not the damage, but yelling out the name.

Bonesplitting Strike Deal an extra 2 constitution damage. The best part? No Save. Constitution damage is nasty. This is a really good maneuver.

I'd upgrade this to gold.

Wolf Fang Strike: Blue in name only, this goes to cyan or possibly gold if you're TWFing. You see that boost right above this one? Do the math. At level 1, you can jump at your opponent, hit him twice, and then use your move action to get away. The only reason this isn't automatically gold for TWFers is that there's no way to apply iteratives.

You might want to add a note about this one: the -2 penalty *supercedes* the normal TWF penalties. So you don't need the TWF feat to use this one. Even better, that's a -2 penalty regardless of whether your offhand weapon is light or not. And don't gimme any of that "Hey, I'm a two-hander!" BS. Do you have 50 GP? Yes? Armor spikes = offhand weapon.

Death from Above: Again, bonus damage, but not the greatest thing. You should always be able to hit the DC at this point, though.

One of my favorite TC strikes. I'd upgrade this to Cyan. Not only is it bonus damage, but bonus movement. While it's not exactly like spring attack, definitely useful for getting into flanking position.

Dancing Mongoose: Extra attacks are always nice. This goes to gold if you're TWFing.
Raging Mongoose: Two extra attacks at full atta/B][/COLOR]for Two Weapon Fighters.

Even if you're not TWFing... seriously, 50 GP = armor spikes.

Pouncing Charge: This is the only way other than Lion Totem Barbarian that I'm aware of to gain Pounce (outside weird races and Polymorph shenanigans). The only reason this isn't gold is that your chassis doesn't set you up to be a charger.

Magic of Incarnum. Shape Soulmeld: Sphynx Claws + Open Least Chakra: Hands = Pounce with natural weapons (great for Unarmed Variant Swordsages).

Hunter Noventa

2012-10-31, 07:58 AM

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying, honestly =/ If you're saying that the discipline is, on average, too low tier, I have to disagree. I'm judging based on average opponents, and the discipline's focus on fire damage just makes it lower tier than many of the others. Let me know if I missed your point, though.

Just that yes, in an average campaign it can be less than spectacular, but it might go up a tier in usability, depending on the focus of your game and the type of opponents you face more often. It suddenly becomes a lot more viable if you're facing no demons for example. It's just not all useless all the time.

It's mainly that many guides have disclaimers for campaign specific things. Like certain water-based abilities being more useful in an aquatic campaign. So just a note you may want on Desert Wind in general to bump up it's maneuvers if you're not going to be dealing with dragons and outsiders, etc.

Snowbluff

2012-10-31, 08:22 AM

Swordsage's can get Staggering Strike for when they are in Assassin's Stance. Three Mountains is also another good combat style for Str focused SS.

Telonius

2012-10-31, 08:41 AM

Couple corrections ...

I'm looking through Stormwrack, and I'm not seeing anywhere that Hadozee get a bonus feat.
EDIT: Huh, now that's weird. It has it in the monster entry on page 152, but not in the race description on page 42.

Minor correction on Discipline Focus: Weapon Focus does not modify your BAB, it gives you a +1 to attack. Effectively the same as far as hitting the enemy, but it does nothing to help you qualify for anything with a BAB requirement.

Essence_of_War

2012-10-31, 09:44 AM

I'm working on a multiclassing section based on Eggs' observations on how multiclassing breaks down for the swordsage.

Should have it mostly done by tonight.

Ryu_Bonkosi

2012-10-31, 10:30 AM

Just gave it a quick read through and I like it so far. My only complaint is, where was this 3 days earlier when a player of mine and I were building a Swordsage and spent 3ish hours looking through the maneuvers section trying to pick some good ones. :smalltongue:

Also, since a Dex based/Rogue-like Swordsage can be a bit feat starved, making mention of the Feycraft Template form DMG II could help relieve some feat stress in such builds. I mean 1500 gp per weapon for Weapon Finesse, for a TWF build this is about the same as going to an Otyugh Hole for Iron Will, only a little less cheesy.

God Imperror

2012-10-31, 11:14 AM

Since other classes seem to be under construction some comments that I found useful in the past.

When dipping for another classes try to keep the levels even (since two levels in a non initiator class grant you a net increase of 1 in your initiator level). You also want to dip as early as possible to be able to pick higher level maneuvers/stances

Classes that add feats are good for the feat starved swordsage:

-Fighter (2 levels dip): Allow the swordsage to get two bonus feats from the fighter list, in addition to some substitution levels. An ACF that it is probably worth it can be found in the drow of the underdark. A +2 to Initiative, and the ability to add the dexterity modifier to damage against flatfooted opponents).

-Feat rogue (2 levels dip): As the fighter above grants two feats, but it also gets more skill points and class features: EVASION

-Psychic warrior (2 levels dip): Again two feats, but this time complimented with some powers. This can be good or really good if the swordsage takes some psionic race with extra power points. Kalashtar (from eberron campaign setting) might really benefit from this.

-Monk (2 level dip): The unarmed swordsage is the one that benefits the most from this two level dip, quite a few extra feats, customizable with the fighting stiles from unearthed arcana. You can also get invisible fist (from exemplars of evil) which is certainly good.

-Barbarian (2 level dip): Lion spirit totem, wolf totem, whirling frenzy or other rage variants can really help the tiger claw focused swordsage or any swordsage for the matter.

Other classes are pretty darn good even if they don't give extra feats.

-Totemist (2 level dip): Incarnum might be dense to navigate, but what you want here is the options. From two levels on totemist you get 2 essentia, 3 soulmelds and a bind. What you might want here include (blink shirt, tactical teleportation), landshark boots (for the tiger claw focused swordsage), girallon arms (extra arms are cool), dread carapace (free power attack for natural attacks), sphinx claws (pounce for natural attacks if you expend your sixth level feat).

-Cleric (1 level dip): This has a handbook here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773)

Dusk Eclipse

2012-10-31, 11:30 AM

Invisible fist is an ACF for monk

God Imperror

2012-10-31, 11:31 AM

True, don't know why I did screw up there, thanks for spotting it.

Edit: I probably looked at it, went to write about it and then checked back the source and messed with feign death (that is also a rogue thing).

Dusk Eclipse

2012-10-31, 12:16 PM

Monk 2 is a very strong dip for many classes, you get decent HD, +3 to all saves, +1 BAB, decent skill list with decent Sp, 3 bonus feats, Wis to AC and evasion or invisible fist. If you are going Unarmed swordsage it is a good idea to ask your DM if he could let you stack monk and SS progression.

RFLS

2012-10-31, 01:13 PM

Cleave+Great Cleave recommendation

Two-Weapon Fighting. Normally a trap, but a Swordsage can make this work. Synergizes VERY well with Tiger Claw (more extra attacks) and Shadow Hand (more precision-based damage per swing). Also does very well with a Rogue dip for some more sneak attack. So anywhere from Red to Blue, depending on your build.

Snap Kick. Blue at least for Unarmed Swordsages. More attacks is more better, and this one lets you get additional attacks even with a standard attack or even maneuver initiation.

Stone Power. Highly situational. Taking a penalty on attack rolls can be painful for the 3/4 BAB Swordsage, but temporary hit points which renews every round is pretty compelling for defense.

Shards of Granite. Since you're already taking a penalty to get mitigation of damage every round, you might as well bypass all DR and Hardness while you are at it. If you get Stone Power, there is absolutely no reason to not pick this up. In general, however, Stone Power + Shards of Granite is more of a Warblade or Crusader kind of thang.

Sudden Recovery. Blue. Oh crap, I need that maneuver again, right now! Done.

Rapid Attacks. Red. +1d6 only on your first round of attacks is not worth a feat.

Desert Wind Dodge. Either black or Blue. Basically, this is in every way superior to Dodge, and can be used to qualify for Mobility. Generally used to qualify for Shadowdancer or similar PrC's with Mobility as a prereq. However, triggering Desert Wind Dodge is a LOT easier, and more generally applicable. Basically, it's an effective +1 to AC and +1 fire damage per attack.

On some of the feats, I often try to grab things like Knockback, Knockdown, Staggering Strikes and other rider effects that trigger on strikes, just to make them that much more problematic.

I don't want to say Dodge and Mobility aren't awful feats, but they might deserve to be vaguely gestured at as a special case of awful feats, since they're needed for quite a few abilities that the Swordsage can use well (eg. Elusive Target, Defensive Throw, Shadowdancer, Telflammar Shadowlord).

Swordsages can get Staggering Strike for when they are in Assassin's Stance. Three Mountains is also another good combat style for Str focused SS.

Just gave it a quick read through and I like it so far. My only complaint is, where was this 3 days earlier when a player of mine and I were building a Swordsage and spent 3ish hours looking through the maneuvers section trying to pick some good ones. :smalltongue:

At the last quote: My apologies, I forgot to turn Clairvoyance on :smalltongue:

Other than that, just gathering feat recommendations up. Nothing to see, move along.

Draz74

2012-10-31, 02:37 PM

Feats: Don't forget the basics, like Combat Reflexes.

Just gave it a quick read through and I like it so far. My only complaint is, where was this 3 days earlier when a player of mine and I were building a Swordsage and spent 3ish hours looking through the maneuvers section trying to pick some good ones. :smalltongue:
Well, if you'd Googled "Swordsage Handbook," the old ones would have shown up ... :smalltongue: They may have never gotten finished, but they did have guides to all the Maneuver choices.

Note: If you have any weapons/abilities that trigger on a crit, this doubles your chances of activating it. Combine with the Better Lucky Than Good feat to turn natural 1's into 20's, and your Vorpal Nailclipper goes from a 5% chance to decapitate to... uh... (bad with probability)... 20%ish?
19%, to be precise.

I'd be tempted to call this one Gold... you're guaranteed 2 points of Con damage, so it's the equivalent of Bonesplitting Strike. At the very least, Cyan.

[Bonesplitting Strike] I'd upgrade this to gold.
Lots of things are immune to ability damage and/or Constitution damage specifically. I think that's why these don't generally get rated Gold.

Gold. Of the three Shadow Jaunt/Strike/Step, this is probably the most useful, since it's a move action. While Shadow Stride as a swift might seem like the best of the three, it has to compete with all the other things you want to use a swift action for.
Never thought about it like that. Good point.

I don't see how this is compatable with Spring Attack.
I had the same question, earlier ...

One of my favorite TC strikes. I'd upgrade this to Cyan. Not only is it bonus damage, but bonus movement. While it's not exactly like spring attack, definitely useful for getting into flanking position.
Yeah, this one seems to consistently get underrated. The Jump check is really easy, the bonus damage is pretty good for a Level 4, and the bonus movement is surprisingly versatile.

Even if you're not TWFing... seriously, 50 GP = armor spikes.
The Mongoose boosts only work if you were already attacking with a weapon, though. Unlike Wolf Fang Strike, they don't supercede normal TWF penalties. So a non-TWF character with armor spikes isn't necessarily an awesome idea with the Mongoose line.

LTwerewolf

2012-10-31, 06:52 PM

Don't forget to check private messages.

Darrin

2012-11-01, 06:36 AM

19%, to be precise.

Muchas gracias.

The Mongoose boosts only work if you were already attacking with a weapon, though. Unlike Wolf Fang Strike, they don't supercede normal TWF penalties. So a non-TWF character with armor spikes isn't necessarily an awesome idea with the Mongoose line.

That's not my understanding of how Raging/Dancing Mongoose works:

"After initiating this boost, you can make one additional attack with each weapon you wield (to a maximum of two extra attacks if you wield two or more weapons)." (emphasis added)

A person wearing armor with armor spikes is "wielding" them, regardless of whether he has attacked with them that round or not. Also, if you're not using TWF to gain an extra offhand attack, the TWF penalties don't apply:

"These extra attacks are made at your highest attack bonus for each of your respective weapons. All of these attacks must be directed against the same opponent."

So, by my reading of the rules, if you're wielding a greatsword and wearing armor spikes, you can:

1) full attack, make your iterative attacks with your greatsword
2) activate Raging Mongoose as a swift action
2a) get another attack with your greatsword at your highest BAB
2b) get another attack with your armor spikes at your highest BAB

However, I understand that there's been some considerable argument over how to interpret the TWF rules, and my interpretation has not been universally embraced.

Saintheart

2012-11-01, 07:30 AM

Not really on feats/maneuver selections as such, but just some thoughts on the Unarmed Swordsage section of the handbook, maybe even some unhumble text for inclusion...? :smallsmile:

It's a common recommendation to substitute a Monk for an Unarmed Swordsage (US), the general advice being that a US fits the concept of a monk far better at least in concept. But you'd also think from that recommendation that it's as easy as dipping classes to do so, and nothing could be further than the truth.

The rules for adaptation are found at p. 20 of ToB. When you read them, you'll see what the main problem is: they're as vague as all get-out, and it's arguable they don't actually substitute a monk for a US. The only thing a US gets on a RAW ToB adaptation is "the monk's unarmed strike progression." You can argue to a DM that this must imply that a US gets Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, and the monk's steadily increasing damage dice, but it is not explicit. A miserly DM could well insist that you take Improved Unarmed Strike on your own and indeed that Flurry of Blows itself is ruled out. And that's leaving aside that the US loses his light armor proficiency for this.

In other words, the unique aspect of creating a US as opposed to a regular Swordsage is that it involves much more negotiation with a DM in creating the class - more than the standard "Okay, I'll not touch anything from the Forgotten Realms so long as you leave me access to Dragon magazine supplements." A vanilla Swordsage is hard to screw up, but a US you want to embody the best aspects of a monk depends to a large extent on the DM's whim. So you need to think a little ahead - particularly if you consider some of the stuff that Halfling Monks get as racial substitution levels.

Let's consider the monk's strengths and weaknesses. Its main strengths are that it inherently gets (in rough order of usefulness):
(1) Improved Unarmed Strike without expending a feat to get it
(2) Flurry of Blows which is TWF-lite
(3) Evasion and Improved Evasion seven levels earlier than the Swordsage
(4) All saving throws go up at the same rate
(5) Better movement
(6) Stunning Fist
(7) Ki strike
(8) Better unarmed damage dice as levels go on
(9) Some random bonuses to saves and situational stuff like Quivering Palm and Slow Fall
(10) An inherent Monk AC bonus which will never get to a significant number.

Its weaknesses are, basically, that it can't hit hard enough to make an impact, even if it is able to engage casters. To a large extent, the US makes up for these weaknesses by use of maneuvers and stances, obviously, but some of this stuff is actually good to get.

In my very unhumble and non-expert opinion, the ideal US to negotiate with your DM is obviously to negotiate all of this stuff into the US build. But failing that, convincing your DM to allow the US to pick up items (1), (2), (3), (4), and (5) on that list is workable. You can get by without the other options. Those better unarmed damage dice -- as any Ubercharger knows -- are functionally less useful than to have steadily increasing attack accuracy to trigger other effects, and magic items to a large extent make up for what you lose.

One Necklace of Natural Weapons (Savage Species) in particular is useful. Enchanted with a Sudden Stunning effect (PHB 2), you've basically shoehorned in Stunning Fist. Other stuff like +1 makes up for the various Ki strikes. If faced with having to trade off Swordsage class features for this stuff, consider trading out Quick to Act: the Warning weapon quality basically gives you Improved Initiative on said Necklace of Natural Weapons since your fists are always "drawn", and as a Swordsage without Improved Initiation you'll never get more than +3 out of Quick to Act.

If faced with a very stringent DM, I would at least get (1), (2), and (5) if nothing else since movement and unarmed combat are your bread and butter.

And lastly: particularly for halfling USes, look into negotiating over the Halfling Monk Racial Substitution levels, since these add some decent stuff that is actually useful for halfling monks -- and therefore, halfling USes -- and they do impact on the uppermost levels of the US.

Snowbluff

2012-11-01, 08:12 AM

Darrin

2012-11-01, 08:22 AM

The rules for adaptation are found at p. 20 of ToB. When you read them, you'll see what the main problem is: they're as vague as all get-out, and it's arguable they don't actually substitute a monk for a US. The only thing a US gets on a RAW ToB adaptation is "the monk's unarmed strike progression." You can argue to a DM that this must imply that a US gets Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, and the monk's steadily increasing damage dice, but it is not explicit. A miserly DM could well insist that you take Improved Unarmed Strike on your own and indeed that Flurry of Blows itself is ruled out. And that's leaving aside that the US loses his light armor proficiency for this.

I find it hard to imagine that anyone can interpret "the monk's unarmed strike progression" to include anything other than the "Unarmed Strike" class ability as listed in the Monk class description. The text even mentions the damage progression, and refers to two tables: the Monk class table, and the Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage table. Everything in the Unarmed Strike section should apply, just replace "Monk" with "Swordsage".

Flurry of Blows is easier to adjudicate: that is a separate class ability, and is not mentioned in the Adaptation section. Swordsages have TWF and Snap Kick if they want more unarmed strikes.

The AC Bonus thing is more difficult to deal with from a RAW standpoint, as it's fairly clear that the designer/editor bungled the adaptation text when they failed to realize that the Swordsage AC bonus doesn't apply if the Swordsage is wearing no armor. But there's a simple workaround for a strict RAW reading: wear light armor that doesn't have an ACP penalty.

But you're correct, a vague toss-away sentence in the Adaptation does not explicitly describe how exactly an Unarmed Swordsage is supposed to work.

Let's consider the monk's strengths and weaknesses. Its main strengths are that it inherently gets (in rough order of usefulness):
(1) Improved Unarmed Strike without expending a feat to get it

That's mentioned explicitly in the Monk's "Unarmed Strike" class ability. Thus, Unarmed Swordsages would get it.

(2) Flurry of Blows which is TWF-lite
(3) Evasion and Improved Evasion seven levels earlier than the Swordsage
(4) All saving throws go up at the same rate
(5) Better movement
(6) Stunning Fist
(7) Ki strike
(8) Better unarmed damage dice as levels go on
(9) Some random bonuses to saves and situational stuff like Quivering Palm and Slow Fall
(10) An inherent Monk AC bonus which will never get to a significant number.

None of these are mentioned in the Monk's "Unarmed Strike" ability or in the Adaptation section. Thus, by RAW they would not be part of the Unarmed Swordsage.

Saintheart

2012-11-01, 08:23 AM

It's pretty straight forward. You get the Unarmed Strike class ability. You lose your light armor proficiency. That's how I rule it, and I think many would agree. However, FoB should not ever be considered an option. FoB is a separate class feature all together.

Respectfully, I disagree; that's your personal DM ruling, not the myriad of possibilities that arise from that phrase. The RAW wording is not "you get the Unarmed Strike class ability". It's explicitly "the monk's unarmed strike progression", which is not the same thing by RAW and arguably not even RAI.

Is it the extra damage dice? They progress, get better with levels.
Is it the flurry of blows? They progress, get better with levels, and it's unarmed apart from monk weapons.
Is it the feat? This, I think, is more RAW against than for: Unarmed Strike is Improved Unarmed Strike + better than usual damage dice. Does it mean Unarmed Strike + the "combat style" bonus feats of Stunning Fist, etc., given a monk doesn't have to satisfy the prerequisites for any of those items?

The point being: this stuff does need to be negotiated. Adaptation is not covered explicitly; it is merely a suggestion or two, and someone contemplating a US should be thinking a bit more carefully about negotiating more than is given by RAW.

Assuming the RAW interpretations given, then I think the point to be made is this: the common suggestion that "US = D&D monk 2.0" is deeply flawed. By making a RAW US you will not make a (edit: the equivalent of, or a better) D&D monk. Even ToB itself does not make that claim. But most people just say US = Monk, and that's not so.

Saintheart

2012-11-01, 08:28 AM

Flurry of Blows is easier to adjudicate: that is a separate class ability, and is not mentioned in the Adaptation section. Swordsages have TWF and Snap Kick if they want more unarmed strikes.

Therein lies the conundrum, and another reason to negotiate US or at least think about it with the DM: a monk has no offhand attack by definition and thus it's not TWF per se; a US is necessarily unarmed and therefore does not have two weapons to fight with; and a monk can theoretically access Flurry of Blows every single round in a fight whilst a Swordsage only does so once, or does so once every two rounds or so depending on how enhanced its recovery techniques are.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-11-01, 09:41 AM

I thought it was pretty clear...

Unarmed Swordsage gets the Unarmed Strike and damage of a Monk. That's it. No Flurry, that's a separate ability.

Who needs Flurry of Misses when you have Tiger Claw?
Who needs Ki Strike when you have Shards of Granite?
Who needs Stunning Fist... at all? No one is going to fail the save anyways
Who needs better movement when you have Desert Wind?
Who needs Saving Throws when you have Diamond Mind to Just Say No(tm)
Who needs Evasion at level 2 when you don't have to worry about Blastomancy until around level 9 anyways?

This is why Swordsage is often suggested as a complete replacement for Monk. It can do everything Monk can do... and does it better. Strictly an upgrade.

RFLS

2012-11-01, 12:48 PM

Just posting to let everyone know that I haven't abandoned the handbook; I've been getting slammed with papers and tests. I'll be doing minor editing and whatnot for the next few days, including compiling all of the suggested feats. I'll do my best to have the entire feat section done sometime Sunday evening; after that I would appreciate submissions for builds (preferably in table format) that you think are good examples of a particular kind of Swordsage. I'll be doing a few basic ones, but I am not an expert on every single kind of Swordsage build (I doubt anyone is).

I'll also be taking suggestions for good homebrew disciplines to include; I've already selected Dancing Leaf and Sleeping Goddess to go in here. I'll be looking for very general, easy to use disciplines that scale well compared to the published ones.

As always, basically any suggestion is welcome. I see a lot of criticism of various bits of the guide so far in the last few pages, and I really appreciate it because it'll make the guide that much better. Like I've said, I'll listen to anything that's said as long as there's reasoning behind it.

Talya

2012-11-01, 01:56 PM

Just posting to let everyone know that I haven't abandoned the handbook;

So you haven't succumb to the Elfin-Hazzardevil curse, then.

kitcik

2012-11-01, 02:12 PM

Who needs Stunning Fist... at all?

The monk with the feat Pressure Point Strike (DR 336).

Arcanist

2012-11-01, 02:25 PM

The monk with the feat Pressure Point Strike (DR 336).

That feats only redeeming quality is that it lets you play a Chi (Spell) Blocker and even then it doesn't let you permanently take away someones Bending (Spellcasting)...

A Lobotomy is required to do that... (See Dragon Age: Origins)

Boci

2012-11-01, 02:28 PM

A Lobotomy is required to do that... (See Dragon Age: Origins)

Removal of all emotions isn't quite a lobotomy. It would be hard to imagine someone undergoing that proceedure and then becoming a master crafter of arcane items.

Arcanist

2012-11-01, 02:44 PM

Removal of all emotions isn't quite a lobotomy. It would be hard to imagine someone undergoing that proceedure and then becoming a master crafter of arcane items.

The designers of the game compare it to that of a Lobotomy, which is what I'm referencing. Personally, I can't imagine why anyone would ever willingly under go either of those (A Lobotomy or The Rite of Tranquility), but people see things differently I suppose... :smallfrown:

Boci

2012-11-01, 02:59 PM

The designers of the game compare it to that of a Lobotomy, which is what I'm referencing. Personally, I can't imagine why anyone would ever willingly under go either of those (A Lobotomy or The Rite of Tranquility), but people see things differently I suppose... :smallfrown:

Isn't the alternative to the Rite of Tranquility death, since the mage has been judged unable to resist demonic temptation? Its not exactly consentual.

Arcanist

2012-11-01, 03:02 PM

Isn't the alternative to the Rite of Tranquility death, since the mage has been judged unable to resist demonic temptation? Its not exactly consentual.

Some people willingly do it, but it is rare. Some Mages choose to become Tranquil even after passing the Harrowing... Which is, in my opinion, like scoring a 130+ on an I.Q. test and then choosing to become Lobotomized.

Boci

2012-11-01, 03:09 PM

Some people willingly do it, but it is rare. Some Mages choose to become Tranquil even after passing the Harrowing... Which is, in my opinion, like scoring a 130+ on an I.Q. test and then choosing to become Lobotomized.

That analogy only works if the indevidual knew with certainty that being Lobotomized would allow him to be a master at AI programming. A strange choice to make, but given the human race I can see some indeviduals volunteering.

Arcanist

2012-11-01, 03:10 PM

That analogy only works if the indevidual knew with certainty that being Lobotomized would allow him to be a master at AI programming. A strange choice to make, but given the human race I can see some indeviduals volunteering.

I'll PM you. Since this is completely off topic :smallsmile:

Draz74

2012-11-01, 04:02 PM

That's not my understanding of how Raging/Dancing Mongoose works:

"After initiating this boost, you can make one additional attack with each weapon you wield (to a maximum of two extra attacks if you wield two or more weapons)." (emphasis added)

A person wearing armor with armor spikes is "wielding" them, regardless of whether he has attacked with them that round or not. Also, if you're not using TWF to gain an extra offhand attack, the TWF penalties don't apply:

"These extra attacks are made at your highest attack bonus for each of your respective weapons. All of these attacks must be directed against the same opponent."

So, by my reading of the rules, if you're wielding a greatsword and wearing armor spikes, you can:

1) full attack, make your iterative attacks with your greatsword
2) activate Raging Mongoose as a swift action
2a) get another attack with your greatsword at your highest BAB
2b) get another attack with your armor spikes at your highest BAB

However, I understand that there's been some considerable argument over how to interpret the TWF rules, and my interpretation has not been universally embraced.
You make a sound argument. I was misremembering the exact text of the maneuvers, and in the face of your quote, I am forced to concede: Mongoose Boosts are awesome for any warrior who can afford Armor Spikes. :smallsmile:

It's pretty straight forward. You get the Unarmed Strike class ability. You lose your light armor proficiency. That's how I rule it, and I think many would agree. However, FoB should not ever be considered an option. FoB is a separate class feature all together.

As others have pointed out, this isn't entirely clear.

To offer my own 2 cp as a DM ... I would give the Unarmed Strike class feature (but not e.g. Flurry of Blows) like you say. But on the armor thing, I would not only take away proficiency, but also take away the Wis-to-AC bonus for any Unarmed Swordsage who wears (even light) armor. Just like the Monk, which I'm guessing was RAI. (I would of course also rule that Swordsages get this bonus in no armor as well, Unarmed Variant or otherwise. And that this feature doesn't stack with the Monk or Ninja features.)

danzibr

2012-11-02, 01:43 PM

RFLS: Best wishes with the schooling.

I'm excited for this. Especially the unarmed Swordsage builds. Mmm...

Phaederkiel

2012-11-14, 06:26 PM

I have tor protest about you even thinking about moving insightful strike into black. I'd rather have it cyan. Not only that it gives you a 1d20 dmg instead of, say 1d4+1, not only does it key of a skill which also boost all your saves (which every caster has high, too. Diamond Mind alone makes for the Swordsages incredible dippability) and which is pretty damn easy to boost (10 000 to add 10 damage to one strike every encounter sounds pretty good, and a masterwork tool is just insultingly cheap), but it does multiply after a crit. And here we are in sillytown, much earlier than with greater insightful strike.

imagine a keen katana (1d20 + 8 [skill points concentration] + 2 [constitution modifier] + 2 [masterwork tool], 15-20 x 2 ). There are some quite cheap bracers which let you reroll an attack, which make a crit even more probable. 2d20= average of 21 + 24. This is a very scary prospect for a CR 5 monster, even if you do not go out of your way to maximise.

(by the way, a factotum can add his classlvl to insightful AFTER he has seen that it will crit.)

( edit: I just edited my mistake of the katana's critrange. stupid dndwiki.)

I think what would be very good is a section about dipping.
as in:

Defense package with one attack option:

mind over body, Moment of perfect mind, baffling defense, counter charge, child of shadows, shadow jaunt, insightful strike.

dippable at lvl 9 (edit)

defense package without attack option and scent in place of 20% concealment:

mind over body, Moment of perfect mind, baffling defense, counter charge, hunters sense, shadow jaunt, cloak of deception.

dippable at lvl 9 (edit)(but only due to mind over body)

Sneak attack package

mind over body, Moment of perfect mind, Wolf fang, sapphire nightmare blade
Assasins stance, shadow jaunt, cloak of deception.

Dippable at lvl 7 (edit: needed to be 9, anyway), makes craven attainable (check with dm)
You can switch either wolf fang or sapphire nightmare blade against shadow garotte, which can sneak from a distance and has nice flavor to boot.

edit: oops, me stoopid. A single lvl cannot give you a lvl 3 stance. which means a second lvl in swordsage, or taking / retraining a feat the lvl you get there.

All those examples are made with someone reflex-heavy in mind, but they can easily accomodate a fortitude type, the second package is then usable at lvl 5.

one last thing:rapid attack is named rapid assault.

RFLS

2012-11-14, 06:42 PM

Hey guys, this hasn't been abandoned- I've been in the hospital for a week or so. Nothing serious, don't worry. I will be coming back.

Phaederkiel

2012-11-14, 07:22 PM

good to hear it was nothing serious !:smalleek:

there is a question that plagues me at the moment:
In my new campaign, a player wants to play a Raptoran reskinning
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14215726#post14215726
(I could need some clever people looking over it, btw :belkar:)

since raptorans / tengu get plus 10 to jump, she will be using a lot of tiger claw jumpy stuff.

How does these maneuvers (let us say, for example claw at the moon) intereact with

a) battle jump
b) leap attack
c) a piercer cloak, mic 118
d) the ability to glide after jumping

?

my guesses are:

a) if you jump high enough to drop down from five feet above your opponent (with "above" ill defined: does it mean above the place he stands on or above his head?) Battle jump makes it a charge. I am not sure if that would mean that the maneuver gets cancelled, since it has no "charge" in its descriptor; after all, battle jump lets you charge after you have moved, too.

b) the flavour hints at a charging feat, yet the benefit text does only say that your attack has to comply to the rules of normal jumping and charging.
I guess the feat should work only with charges, but perhaps it works with a normal attack. As in "i use sudden leap and then attack full". Or in "claw the moon does not specify adjacent, so I run and jump at this guy there, and get the benefit.

c) High ground is exceedingly ill defined, it seems. I am, at the moment, willing to rule that if she jumps 5ft high in her claw at the moon, she will have the d6.

d) that would perhaps need to disrupt the order of the maneuver into jump, then glide, then execute the attack. I do not know if that is acceptable.
Again, Claw at the moon does not define where the opponent stands.

Talya

2012-11-15, 08:25 AM

Hey guys, this hasn't been abandoned- I've been in the hospital for a week or so. Nothing serious, don't worry. I will be coming back.

... the Swordsage Handbook curse gave a warning this time?

Snowbluff

2012-11-15, 10:03 AM

Okay okay okay. Guys. I'll make one too. Just I have this lump that I should get checked out... XD morbid humor

Ryu_Bonkosi

2012-11-15, 01:24 PM

... the Swordsage Handbook curse gave a warning this time?

Is it bad that I was thinking the same thing?

RFLS

2012-11-15, 06:46 PM

Arcanist

2012-11-15, 06:47 PM

Is it bad that I was thinking the same thing?

You're not alone in the idea that this class is cursed to never have a complete handbook... :smalleek:

eggs

2012-11-15, 08:17 PM

Finished out some of the feats; I need help with the Tripping and Grappling feats in particular. I'm not very familiar with those kinds of builds (I bet you guys can guess which build I am familiar with, though).
The big relevant feats for a tripper build:
Improved Trip - Obviously.
Knockdown (here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown); originally Sword and Fist?) - Hit someone with a strike and knock them down with a trip at the same time. May prompt another attack from Improved Trip if successful (but I've never seen a group actually use it that way).
Jotunbrud (Races of Faerun) - Big size bonus to trips. Can become less useful at higher levels if using anything to increase the character's size (which frankly, is probably a good idea)
Combat Reflexes - Useful for most Swordsages to get maximum attacks at high attack bonuses despite low BA, but especially useful with a tripper's control element, and the AoOs provoked by creatures standing back up.
[Spiked] Chain Proficiency - 15ft reach, finesse-able, trippable. It's hoaky, but it's a great feat.
Defensive Throw - Free Trips when creatures miss you. Demands a lot of prerequisites, but beside Dodge, they're all prereqs a Swordsage can use anyway (unarmed SSs or those with Monk dips anyway).
Great Throw (supposedly from OA, really from the web (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060413a)) - Automatic unarmed damage and a bit of control on a successful trip. For unarmed Swordsages or Monk/Swordsages that can muster a decent base damage, it's makes a nifty combo with Knockdown. For straightclassed Swordsages, its feat requirements are just to strict.
Confound the Bigfolk (Races of the Wild) - A bit unusual in that it's more useful for Small sneak attack builds than it is for a more standard tripper, but gives a nifty trip option that completely disregards size, as well as a way to force flat-footed status on larger creatures. (And note that there's a Monk 1 sub level Champions of Valor Web enhancement that knocks one of its major prereqs out as a bonus feat)
Distant Horizon (ToB) - It seems appropriate on first glance, but it's probably worth mentioning that it's kind of terrible - the prereq feat keys off Stunning Fist, which is just a nasty path to invest resources in, the feat doesn't let you tank Intelligence in the way you'd probably like to, and the trip bonus is only circumstantial.

Wolf Berserker from Unapproachable East might also be relevant for cranking the modifier and circumventing Improved Trip's MAD problems, but it kind of dictates a specific build.

On grapplers, the Swordsage specifically doesn't add a whole lot beside constrict (12k market value for a similar graft), but there are some cool combos that can be fitted together with:
Improved Grapple - Again, obviously.
Scorpion's Grasp (Sandstorm) - Improved Grab, minus the size limit. So you can treat the grapple as an added control effect while you hit people with strikes or normal attacks as usual.
Jotunbrud (Races of Faerun) - Again, a size bonus, and size bonuses are good.
Mancatcher Proficiency (Complete Warrior) - I'm the only person I've ever see talk about this weapon/feat, but it's Improved Grab up to your own size category with a reach weapon (so the target can't necessarily hit back) and any miscellaneous bonuses you have to the attack roll apply to the grapple. So with Greater Magic Weapon on a Discipline Weapon, it's a ramped-up Improved Grab, and reach-grapple and +8 modifier, all for one feat.
Distant Horizon (ToB) - As with the tripper, but more so (since it requires some tripping proficiency as well).

Phaederkiel

2012-11-16, 09:21 AM

My complaint with battle jump (that "above" is ill defined) was made unjustly. The feat specifies quite sufficiently that above means above the head, and tha 10 ft jumps are needed for an medium sized creature.

could anyone comment on my questions, otherwise?
I would really like to know how those interactions work (DM next week) and I am sure that I am not the only one who is interested in making a jumpy swordsage work.

eggs

2012-11-16, 10:15 AM

How does these maneuvers (let us say, for example claw at the moon) intereact with

a) battle jump
b) leap attack
Both of those give options and benefits for a character using a charge action, which isn't usable with the jump-based tiger claw maneuvers, so there's no interaction.

c) a piercer cloak, mic 118
The charging benefit has the same problem as the previous abilities.

The higher-ground bonus is clarified a bit in Rules Compendium: if you're above your target, you get the bonus; that can be from a mount, a jump, whatever.

But how that interacts with Tiger Claw maneuvers isn't consistent specified: Death From Above and Swooping Dragon Strike describe jumping physically over the target, and would apply the higher-ground bonus; Soaring Raptor Strike might it describes jumping over the target's defenses, but that doesn't necessarily mean being physically above it; Claw at the Moon and Feral Death Blow don't give any parameters for jumping over the target, and probably don't confer the higher ground bonus.

d) the ability to glide after jumping
The speed given in the description of a raptoran's glide seems to indicate that gliding is treated like land movement for action costs. That means no movement between the jump and the attack, as it's a separate action which can't b used in the middle of another action.

As far as whether you can glide after a jump maneuver, it gets really messy because most of the maneuvers don't actually treat the jump checks used in the maneuvers as jumps - there's no description of physical distances, there's no relation between the height of the jump in the maneuver and the height of a jump that a character could normally make. The RAW don't give the necessary parameters for that movement to make a RAW-informed decision on how the glide works.

It comes down to a simplicity v. simulation decision:

I think the easiest and probably closest to intended use of the maneuvers is not to treat them as jump checks at all, and to disregard the vertical movement that's not explicitly laid out by the rules.

But if you want to keep the fiction of the raptoran's abilities consistent, it probably wouldn't be unreasonable to allow a character to glide after making one of the jump maneuvers, for the 40ft/move action movement, but this means winging a decision on how high the raptoran is actually jumping, which is completely unspecified in 3/5 relevant maneuvers, and only described as "above the target" for the other 2.

Phaederkiel

2012-11-16, 11:16 AM

First things first: thanks for the input. everything about c) and d) is really helpful. I am not yet sure how to make these things work, but I will probably make the jump height simply dependant from the jump DCs made against the AC.

And I will allow for gliding after the jump, if not before. THis makes some difficulties with her flyby-attack, but hey. (Apropos Flyby-attack: By RAW she should be able to fly to an opponent, do a jumping maneuver, and fly on.
Now is the question: what does she jump off while flying? magically of the air? Or off the opponent? Or is jumping a subset of gliding in this case? (as in "do tumble check instead") This is obviously a fluff problem mainly, but yet...

about a) and b)

a) battle jump
b) leap attack

Both of those give options and benefits for a character using a charge action

no, they do not really. Battle jump specifies that it makes your drop into a charge. (which leads to some shenanigans about having pounce and using your whole movement to jump 6 times and do 6 full attacks. Ripe Cheddar, but RAW.)

In my opinion, one of two things happen with battle jumps. Either the charge breaks off the maneuver (cause it is suddenly a charge, which it is specified not to be) or the maneuver becomes additionally a charge (which is okay, because simple dropping is usually no charge either).

I would momentarily probably rule for the latter.

With leap attack I would rule exactly vice versa. The Feat does not really contain crunch about charging, but fluff-wise, it is pretty much clear that a charge is always intended.

The feat is simply missing a "while charging..." in front of its rule text. A simple attack does comply the rules of charging, even if it is no charge, by not being against those rules. Ray attacks do, too, and diplomacy checks also. Its just really badly written.

eggs

2012-11-16, 12:16 PM

no, they do not really. Battle jump specifies that it makes your drop into a charge. (which leads to some shenanigans about having pounce and using your whole movement to jump 6 times and do 6 full attacks. Ripe Cheddar, but RAW.)
Yeah, I'm aware of that interpretation, and it relies on interpreting the "by" in "You can execute a charge by simply dropping ..." to mean something that "by" doesn't mean.

Per the OED, "by" expresses a means of achieving something, not an indication of causality. That means the "simply dropping" is a means of achieving the charge action, in the same way that moving at least 10 feet is a means of achieving the charge action - both included as components, rather than causes, of the charge action.

For that phrase to mean that dropping causes a charge, "by" has to mean "as a consequence of" or "as a result of," rather than "through the means of." This is acceptable in certain phrases like "by chance," but isn't a standard use of the word, and isn't applicable in this instance (the OED restricts it to uses "followed by a noun without an adjective").

Googling other dictionaries, those definitions and usage parameters seem pretty darn ubiquitous. The permissive "falling means charging" interpretation seems like a stretch against the rules, against game balance and against English, so I'm going to disagree.

In any case, even with the permissive interpretation, whether the maneuvers qualify or not wraps back around to the lack of parameters for treating Tiger Claw jump maneuvers as physical movement - it's up for interpretation how high these jump checks are making the character go.

If you're using the permissive interpretation and permitting the charge attack to trigger, I don't see why it wouldn't just resolve as a maneuver as normal, followed by a charge (including the jump check combined with the charge, as permitted by Leap Attack).

Snowbluff

2012-11-16, 12:24 PM

Your argument falls apart the moment any realizes that falling and dropping are synonymous. And that you drop for the second half of a jump trajectory.

EDIT: And it's balanced. You need to make a 40 take jump the 10 feet needed to use battle jump on a medium creature. Not many characters will be able to make it without significant expenditures in other areas. Finally, the effect or Battle Jump is replicated by other feat combinations as well.

Phaederkiel

2012-11-16, 01:55 PM

Your argument falls apart the moment any realizes that falling and dropping are synonymous. And that you drop for the second half of a jump trajectory.

whose argument and why does it fall apart?
we are nitpicking at the moment anyway...

and

EDIT: And it's balanced. You need to make a 40 take jump the 10 feet needed to use battle jump on a medium creature. Not many characters will be able to make it without significant expenditures in other areas. Finally, the effect or Battle Jump is replicated by other feat combinations as well.

80 if not running. That would obviously balance it. But skillpoints are quite easily expendable.

Snowbluff

2012-11-16, 02:14 PM

Skill points have very little to do with anything if you are trying to hit 80.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-11-16, 06:13 PM

whose argument and why does it fall apart?
we are nitpicking at the moment anyway...

and

80 if not running. That would obviously balance it. But skillpoints are quite easily expendable.

There's also a Tiger Claw Stance which gives +10' jump distance...

Phaederkiel

2012-11-16, 07:38 PM

Phaederkiel

2012-11-17, 06:45 PM

another interesting feat for trippers is sandsnare from sandstorm.
While it is only useful in campaigns where you can count upon having loose earth, ash or sand lying around, it gets quite good when you can use it.

Phaederkiel

2012-11-21, 06:23 PM

hey, RFLS, did you give up or did trying kill you?

I hope it is nothing bad.

Snowbluff

2012-11-21, 07:12 PM

Another great feat for an SS is Sand Dance. Require sand, but blinding for 1 round with no action = awesome. Not to mention Wis is already a stat for Swordsages.

Also, this will keep you from quadruple posting

DeltaEmil

2012-11-21, 07:27 PM

I should not have written anything about these dc 80 jumpchecks.
(and by the way, I am pretty sure the stance is meant to give plus 10 to jump, not 10 ft, since the difference between long and highjumping should be somewhere included)It was surely meant to only give a +10 enhancement bonus on Jump checks, and not a +10 foot enhancement bonus, but that's the way it's written, and there is no real errata (the one being provided by Wizards of the Coast suddenly turns into the errata for Tome of Magic).
As it is now, Leaping Dragon Stance makes it that you can always jump at least 10 feet high in the air without any problems.

Quite frankly, I do not see this a problem. It's cool, and it gives non-spellcasters a nice little trick that looks quite awesome.

At best, it can only be abused into doing hp damage, which ubercharging does anyway, and spells are always a superior application of I-Win.

RFLS

2012-11-21, 09:55 PM

hey, RFLS, did you give up or did trying kill you?

I hope it is nothing bad.

Haha, no, I'm definitely coming back. The end of the semester is coming up, and I'm in 19 hours of courses. Besides, if I try to get it all done in one go, the Handbook gods will notice someone trying to finish this one and smite me down.

Phaederkiel

2012-12-02, 07:02 PM

hmm, snowbluff, do you think it is okay to post again? I do not want to invoke your anger...:smallamused:

My Party, and thus my player playing the birdman-swordsage had a go this weekend. Since I now know some more of the maneuvers first hand and non-theoretical, I have some comments to make about them.

a) cloak of deception. It is gold already, but if you had a better colour, it should be made that colour. It is stupid good. At CR4, she was able to use it about 6 to 8 times in a single session, every time to great potential. One can run far in 6 seconds. The possibility to walk around a corner, make a spot check, walk back again even if there are 10 guards waiting is invaluable. The wujens invisibility (which nevertheless made an impression) looked like the poor mans version in comparision.

b) Burning Blade in combination with wolf fang is huge at cr4, and likely will be still big enough at cr6 to cr8. 2w6 plus 8 for a swift is a nice deal at lowlvl, especially since the 8 can be multiplied by criticals. Especially since, at that low level, you have not the dozens of swifts and immedieates you will have later. Obviously, both maneuver will get swapped out later on, but at first they are quite good.

so, come one. I `d like to see some prestige class options which are not coming from the TOB. Is there a way to get maneuvers out of the TOB?

Snowbluff

2012-12-02, 08:01 PM

hmm, snowbluff, do you think it is okay to post again? I do not want to invoke your anger...:smallamused:

Nah, I was doing you a favor. It's a forum rule not to overpost. Next time, it'd be better to just edit your post rather than posting a bunch of them.

so, come one. I `d like to see some prestige class options which are not coming from the TOB. Is there a way to get maneuvers out of the TOB?

Even though there are no Initiator Prestige classes in other books, the way your Initiator Level works you can use other classes in your build to little ill effect.

For example the Revenant Blade, easily one of the best TWF PrCs in the game.

Dusk Eclipse

2012-12-02, 11:01 PM

Snowbluff

2012-12-02, 11:40 PM

Revenant Blade is hands down the best TWF focused class in the game (there aren't many classes that focus on TWF)

Sworsage 5/Spirit Lion Barbarian 1/ Revenant Blade 5/ Swordsage +9 (not in that order) nets you IL 16 and 16 BAB + all the nice goodies from Swordsage.

Be a Snow/Painted Elf from Valenar to avoid the Con penalty and get proficiency with the double scimitar without spending a feat in EWP.

You could also grab some Eternal Blade, since you have all of the requirements. It's pretty hand if you need a Diamond Mind Maneuver you don't have. :smallsmile:

3 Blades style!

Dusk Eclipse

2012-12-02, 11:53 PM

Personally I don't think Eternal blade is worthwhile for Swordsages as the delayed entry (stupid BAB 10 pre-requisite) means you can't get the awesomeness of Island in Time).

Snowbluff

2012-12-02, 11:56 PM

Personally I don't think Eternal blade is worthwhile for Swordsages as the delayed entry (stupid BAB 10 pre-requisite) means you can't get the awesomeness of Island in Time).

Yeah. Also, the late entry limits the handiness of the Maneuver learning ability. :smallyuk:

Phaederkiel

2012-12-03, 06:32 AM

I just looked at revenant blade (and liked it, it is really good).

Are there other prestige classes that good which focus on a single weapon ?

and are here any classes that further the swordsages learning of maneuvers?
There was some class that did, i remember, but I cannot remember the name.
Nor if the rest of the class was useful.

Snowbluff

2012-12-03, 08:48 AM

and are here any classes that further the swordsages learning of maneuvers?
There was some class that did, i remember, but I cannot remember the name.
Nor if the rest of the class was useful.

All of the PrCs give you full IL for all your classes, and you can learnany maneuver from PrCs. For example, if you were a RKV, you could pick up Divine Spirit maneuvers from the Maneuvers Known for you Swordsage class, assuming you meet he prerequisites.

Draz74

2012-12-03, 02:56 PM

Yeah, no PrC explicitly improves "your Swordsage progression" (except for PrCs that continue any class feature progression, like Uncanny Trickster), but any PrC that grants maneuvers can be used to add maneuvers to your Swordsage repertoire. (Although I think Master of Nine is the only PrC that lets you pick from all six Swordsage Disciplines.)

All of the PrCs in Tome of Battle, with the exception of Bloodstorm Blade, give you full IL for all your classes, and you can learnany maneuver from PrCs. For example, if you were a RKV, you could pick up Divine Spirit maneuvers from the Maneuvers Known for you Swordsage class, assuming you meet he prerequisites.

Fixed that for you.

Phaederkiel

2012-12-03, 05:22 PM

argl. I put my foot in my mouth. I should have made more obvious that I knew about the initiator lvls the ToB prestiges give.

What I meant: are there prestige classes that further maneuvers exept those included in ToB (Like the trickster. Which i will look at now)

Snowbluff

2012-12-03, 06:03 PM

Techwarrior

2012-12-06, 03:29 AM

Might I suggest adding Zenthyri (Monster Manual 2) to the list of Races that are good for Swordsages? They're +1 LA Planetouched, but if you give them Lesser Planetouched they've got that weirdo half human half outsider thing and LA 0.

+2 Str, +2 Wis, +2 Dex, -2 Cha, Resistance to Sonic, True Strike 1/day.

Phaederkiel

2012-12-06, 01:12 PM

one thing that probably deserves a mention in the multiclass /prestigeclass section is how VERY well one lvl cleric synergizes with Swordsage in general and with Master of nine in particular.

one lvl cleric gives you

at least 2 domains (lets say: time and darkness)
which means blindfight and improved ini, true strike as a domain spell, lvl 1 cleric casting (probably meaning : 3 0th lvl, 3 1st lvl spells), turn attempts to fuel possible devotion /divine feats.

and probably also the ever-powerful Knowledge devotion.

which kills two of the prereq-feats from master of nine. Adaptive style is nearly as mandatory for swordsages as natural spell is for druids, and imp unarmed seems to be available by going unarmed swordsage. This leaves Dodge, which is easily affordable as a feat taxe, especially since there are much better replacements, such as expeditious dodge and desert wind dodge.
Note that these feat have no target, which means that elusive target RAW does not work anymore. Which is a shame.

Now, question to the great people here: how should an unarmed Swordsage look like? I know that this borders into homebrewland, but I think it is an issue that most Swordsage-players get confronted with. If you ask anything on these boards about master of 9, you get : "play an unarmed swordsage", even if nobody knows what it look like.
This handbook should at least contain suggestions.

Gharkash

2012-12-06, 06:01 PM

Seeing Craven in the feat list, and having seen Assasin's Stance used as SA for prereqs, i have to ask. Is there an official ruling that Assasin's Stance qualifies as the Sneak Attack class feature for prereqs?

Techwarrior

2012-12-06, 06:30 PM

(While you are in this stance) You gain the Sneak Attack ability, if you do not already have it, which deals an extra 2d6 points of damage.

It shouldn't need an official ruling. RAW gives you 2d6 Sneak Attack. The only question is whether your DM doesn't like you the RAW. There's even rules for you don't meet the prerequisites for a feat after taking it. I think they're in the DMG. Those state that you can't use the feat if you don't meet prerequisites anymore, but can after meeting them again. That means, by RAW you can't use Craven and the like when you don't have Sneak Attack, but if you get Sneak Attack again (by dropping into Assassins Stance) you can use the feats again.

Gharkash

2012-12-06, 06:34 PM

True. It states that you get the sneak attack ability. Unfortunately my DM ruled otherwise.

pHalcyon

2012-12-06, 06:53 PM

No, it doesn't.

One of the requirements of Craven is that you have the Sneak Attack class feature, while Assassin's Stance specifically gives it to you as an ability; nowhere on the Swordsage table or in its entry do I see it. Sure, you gain Sneak Attack from a stance, which is a class feature, but arguing that way is just bothersome.

Honestly, though, since it's just a bit more damage, I wouldn't rule against it. There are better options for your feats, and if you want to limit your effectiveness elsewhere to kill something in fewer hits, by all means, do it. Melee, even ToB melee, can still stand to have a few more nice things.

So bring it up with your DM.

Gharkash

2012-12-06, 07:33 PM

Are the terms ability and class feature defined? ability seems vague and/or ambiguous. Nothing to talk to my DM though, it came up in a Telfawhatever Shadowlord prereq conversation.

Draz74

2012-12-06, 07:33 PM

Snowbluff

2012-12-06, 07:53 PM

Yeah, whenever I read class feature I read "Ability called X from the X class". So if you have, let's say, Trackless Step fro Bamboo Spiritfolk as the Druid Class Feature, it works for prerequisites.

I also rule normal as "Before this effect has taken place", and not as "before ANY effect has taken place".

Phaederkiel

2012-12-07, 04:41 AM

I also rule normal as "Before this effect has taken place", and not as "before ANY effect has taken place".

What do you mean with that?

as to the craven debate: I am pretty sure that RAW (and probably RAI, too) assasins stance does not give you sneak attack as a prereq. This stance would else easily open up a lot of prestige classes(admittedly many of which are not so hot), and is easily gained by taking two feats.

btw: no love for unarmed swordsages?

Darrin

2012-12-07, 06:28 AM

as to the craven debate: I am pretty sure that RAW (and probably RAI, too) assasins stance does not give you sneak attack as a prereq.

Depends on the wording. If the prereq mentions "sneak attack as a class feature", then there may be an argument that it doesn't count. However, if the Swordsage got Assassin's Stance as one of his Swordsage stances (which *is* a class feature), then I would consider that as qualifying for the prereq.

This stance would else easily open up a lot of prestige classes(admittedly many of which are not so hot), and is easily gained by taking two feats.

Not that easy at all, as you still need an IL of 5. This means a non-swordsage generally can't qualify until ECL 10, or more likely, ECL 12 when a feat slot becomes available. That puts Craven at ECL 15, which is a bit of a slog for something that's supposed to be "easy".

Phaederkiel

2012-12-07, 06:44 AM

and by the way: a stance gotten via a feat surely is no class feature.

but seemingly, some prestiges are not worded as needing a class feature.
Arcane trickster for example just needs 2d6 sneak. And it is obviously vastly better to gain acces via 2 feats than to lose 3 caster lvls. Even 1 lvl swordsage at lvl 9 could be quite okay. 3 save-improvers, 1 damaging strike, cloak of shadows, a stance. Take a feat for assasins stance, you are good to go.

Still noone daring to throw in a concept for the unarmed variant?

pHalcyon

2012-12-07, 10:22 AM

Still noone daring to throw in a concept for the unarmed variant?

Blegh. I guess I could post the one I used myself earlier this year.

The adaptation section only says to give them the Monk's unarmed strike progression and remove their light armor proficiency.

This is silly, and for the purpose of why people suggest it as a dip to qualify for Master of Nine, no better than a straight Swordsage. Not to mention that making a Swordsage pick up Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat when they're one of the most feat-starved classes in the game is just a **** move. So give them IUS as a feat. Or better yet, the Monk's Unarmed Strike ability.

And I got my DM to let the Swordsage qualify as a Monk for the purpose of anything that requires Monk levels.

That's about it, really. Pretty much anything else a Monk could do that you'd like to have can be replicated better with maneuvers or feats that you'd want to be taking anyway. Flurry of Blows? Flashing Sun lets you do that with any weapon (and you can still use weapons), Snap Kick works whenever you make an attack, and the X-ing Mongoose boosts are just plain better.

So, that's..

Lose:
- Light Armor Proficiency

Gain:
- Unarmed Strike ability as a Monk
- Is considered a Monk for any effects that require Monk levels or advance Monk abilities.

Wisdom to AC was FAQd to also work unarmored, but you could make it only work unarmored if you want to be more Monk-like. Or just wear armor without ACP.

Phaederkiel

2012-12-07, 05:22 PM

Does "unarmed strike ability as a monk" not mean that he does not get Improved unarmed strike? It sounds as if he'd only get the increasing damage die.

and yes, I am afraid this is the problem: ToB says "monk's unarmed strike progression" and does certainly not say "bonus feats" which Improved unarmed strike is.

So that means that it is obviously not RAW and probably not RAI to get rid of the Mo9s prereq by taking unarmed swordsage.

I think it is better to ask your DM to be lenient and let another feat be prereq to master of nine than to present the cheese and rulemongerie which Unarmed swordsage seems to bring with it. Normally, weapon focus would probably be the feat to go for (nigh useless...), but unfortunately, Swordsages get it as a bonus.

edit: Iron will, lightning reflexes and combat expertise would be quite good (and often used )replacements.

pHalcyon

2012-12-07, 05:58 PM

It means you get this:

Unarmed Strike
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.
It grants IUS as a bonus feat, and if you're told you don't get damage progression, that's covered by the second part in that you're considered as a Monk for things like that. I prefer it because it opens up a few options that IUS doesn't.

That's just what I used, though. People are going to want different things; I just thought it was simple and elegant, and that much more would be clunky. I've seen people who play it as it's spelled out in the book and some who basically made it a gestalt with Monk.

I'm fairly certain any variation from the base class isn't RAW. Adaptation sections are just suggestions that can be used to make the game a bit more fun, or make a character concept a bit easier to realize. What the text says it gives you is RAW, but again, it's just a suggestion. But yeah. PrC prerequsites can be a bit ridiculous, and Mo9's are certainly no exception.

Draz74

2012-12-07, 06:00 PM

Does "unarmed strike ability as a monk" not mean that he does not get Improved unarmed strike? It sounds as if he'd only get the increasing damage die.

and yes, I am afraid this is the problem: ToB says "monk's unarmed strike progression" and does certainly not say "bonus feats" which Improved unarmed strike is.

On the contrary, Improved Unarmed Strike has nothing to do with the "Bonus Feats" section of the Monk class writeup. Rather, it is mentioned under his "Unarmed Strike" class feature.

It's rather ambiguous whether "the monk's unarmed strike progression" includes only the damage boost, or the whole "Unarmed Strike" class feature. I think most DMs would rule the latter, just because getting only the increased damage is obviously lame. (Of course, IMO it's likewise obvious to take away, not only armor proficiency, but the ability to add WIS to AC in light armor.)

EDIT: Swordsage'd. Which is appropriate.

Phaederkiel

2012-12-07, 08:17 PM

At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.

and note that there is (at least in the physical players handbook) some fluff between the title "unarmed strike" and the mention of getting the feat. To me, the whole passage sounds like "they are good at fighting, so they get this feat, and this progression of damagedice."

Swordsage on the other hand explicitely states (about the one thing this paragraph states explicitely) that you can interchange "the monk's unarmed strike progression" for his light armor proficiency. And progression means clearly the table for increasing dice, not the feat.

Think about it, giving up light armor proficiency for the progression AND a feat seems somewhat imbalanced. I, as a DM, could probably be talked into giving Imp unarmed in exchange for the weapon focus, but not for a problem which a single lvl in any other class easily removes.

pHalcyon

2012-12-08, 12:42 AM

Adaptation isn't the place to look for hard and fast rules; the other option given in the section, the Arcane Swordsage, is a great example of that, being either completely broken or a gimped Sorcerer that can be hardly playable, depending on how you interpret the text. I'm not putting any interpretations of the text against you, I'm just saying what I did. Adapting a class at all edges into house rules territory, and as far as the Unarmed Swordsage goes, what I did seems to be pretty common.

Sure, you can only do what it expressly mentions, but in this case it's a net drawback. You might be able to punch harder than usual, but you can no longer defend yourself as well, you deal non-lethal damage, and every time you try to hit someone, you provoke an AoO. Having to take IUS on an unarmed build that doesn't get bonus feats is a feat tax, and Swordsages already have at least one of those. I'd honestly rather dip Monk, and that's saying something (although I do like two levels of Passive Way Monk). And using weapons is still more effective.

Imbalanced? Nah. It may be better than the vanilla Swordsage a few pages before, but it's really not much. Again, punching things just isn't that good compared to stabbing, cutting, or hitting them with a stick. It's not even that much more base damage unless you put more of your resources into it, and if you do that I'm starting to wonder why you're playing a Swordsage.

If you want to alter the give and take, do it. By all means. You're the DM, and you decide what gets to your table. I feel like you're valuing the first discipline focus a little too highly, though.

Siosilvar

2012-12-08, 12:54 AM

Think about it, giving up light armor proficiency for the progression AND a feat seems somewhat imbalanced. I, as a DM, could probably be talked into giving Imp unarmed in exchange for the weapon focus, but not for a problem which a single lvl in any other class easily removes.

Giving up armor for a weapon that is somewhere near par and the ability to use it sounds completely reasonable to me.

Phaederkiel

2012-12-08, 03:58 AM

perhaps you are just right. NOT getting IUS is even worse that getting it for free.

(and, to disembowel my earlier argument: dipping one lvl in another class can give you not only the armor proficiency, but on the other hand also IUS, unarmed strike progression and three good saves...)

I think still it would be reasonable to take away the weapon focus. Not because I value it too much, but because both are quite small feats normally used to get into prestige classes.

Blkmge

2012-12-11, 06:21 AM

Any suggestions for a build a two-handed focused Swordsage, or is just straight Diamond mind?

Gharkash

2012-12-11, 06:36 AM

Any suggestions for a build a two-handed focused Swordsage, or is just straight Diamond mind?

I am currently playing such a character, str based two handed. It depends on what you want to do. I have a general focus on diamond mind for now (lvl 7), and will get some tiger claw later, with the shadow hand teleports etc. Not bad, but my group is mid op with new players in it.

I surely have done many mistakes so i won't go any further into my build, but i guess a Dex>Wis>Str finesse shadowblade two-handed spiked chain swordsage would be halfway decent if you pick some maneuvers that fit.

What do you actually want to do with the two hander?

Talya

2012-12-11, 10:48 AM

Any suggestions for a build a two-handed focused Swordsage, or is just straight Diamond mind?

Spiked Chain is a shadow hand weapon.

eggs

2012-12-11, 03:37 PM

Any suggestions for a build a two-handed focused Swordsage, or is just straight Diamond mind?
Tiger claw also has quite a few strikes and stances to help with damage output - Pouncing Charge and Dancing/Raging Mongoose are useful for any build trying to crank damage output with maneuvers, and the Soaring/Rabid X strikes' attack bonuses can make power attack more practical.

Phaederkiel

2012-12-12, 05:21 AM

I think there is quite some fun to be had with a setting sun tripping build. especially with feats like great throw (which i learned of in this thread), defensive throw, curling wave strike and maneuvers like baffling defense. On top of that, yo can still deal big damage via other maneuvers.

You do not even have to use the bloody chain of cheese. many polearms will do, too.

edit: this is, of course, considering that you play not that high OP. There are better schools than setting sun.

Blkmge

2012-12-12, 06:01 AM

I am currently playing such a character, str based two handed. It depends on what you want to do. I have a general focus on diamond mind for now (lvl 7), and will get some tiger claw later, with the shadow hand teleports etc. Not bad, but my group is mid op with new players in it.

I surely have done many mistakes so i won't go any further into my build, but i guess a Dex>Wis>Str finesse shadowblade two-handed spiked chain swordsage would be halfway decent if you pick some maneuvers that fit.

What do you actually want to do with the two hander?

Just every guide/suggestion I've seen has been "Go TWF, Assassin Stance/Shadow Blade" and I'd like to see how to make a character a little less rogue-ish, that's all :)

Phaederkiel

2012-12-12, 06:49 AM

well, I for one think that assasins stance is not that good. If you are not able to use it as a way to enter some prestige class, or get craven (which is still very arguable) it deals 7 points of damage more per attack, and only under certain circumstances.

obviously, when you are able to dump a full attack with two weapons on a flatfooted / flanked opponent, it becomes big.
But in my experience, even flanking comes up FAR less than people account for.
(Might be a special thing with my group, though).

I would always rather go for flat damage than sneak d6, since it scales with crits (which is why craven is good, in my opinion).

Obviously again, you have maneuvers which faciliate sneak attacks (cloak of deception as the most prominent), and other maneuvers which faciliate multiple strikes even after a move action. (sudden leap, wolf fang strike, flashing sun, and many more on higher levels).

But I think the true strength of the maneuver based classes comes with maneuverability (could not resist...). Maneuvers are balanced in a way which makes up for not using a full attack. So spring attack and its better brethren ride-by attack and fly-by attack become very valuable.
(The downside which makes spring attack tauted as a trap is that you cannot full attack with it)

you zoom in, hit someone as hard as you can, and zoom out.

Obviously a third, this is only useful when you have room to move, and it is easily foiled by your DM (who can foil all the sneak you can dish out with some uncanny dodging, too, btw. Or undead. Or plants. Or dragons).

So, to make a long story short, I would go dragonborn or raptorean (both give you a glide, thus a fly speed, which is enough to go for fly-by attack). One feat cost instead of the many feat needed for two weapon fighting, which gives you greater flexibility what else to do.

You give away a bit of damage potential but gain flexibility and safety (as in "not being where the enemies swords are").

edit: not that you cannot do the flying thing with two weapons and Dex to damage. But you can be good without two weapons.

Edit2: The outline above is in no way connected to the tripping above. Talk about anti-synergy...

Talya

2012-12-12, 08:17 AM

But I think the true strength of the maneuver based classes comes with maneuverability (could not resist...). Maneuvers are balanced in a way which makes up for not using a full attack. So spring attack and its better brethren ride-by attack and fly-by attack become very valuable.
(The downside which makes spring attack tauted as a trap is that you cannot full attack with it)

You can't use a strike with spring attack. Spring attack allows an attack in the middle, not a standard action.

Telok

2012-12-12, 09:12 AM

You can't use a strike with spring attack. Spring attack allows an attack in the middle, not a standard action.

Sadly true. But it can work with boosts and stances. I've long wanted to make a SS/spellthief with spring attack and really high movement, attacking from and retreatng to cover to hide every round.

Dusk Eclipse

2012-12-12, 09:43 AM

Gildedragon

2012-12-12, 12:10 PM

Been doing swordsage for a while in my RL campaign. I gotta say AS is good, lots of fun rolling all the extra D6s per attack, but my favorites are Shadow Child and Island of Blades, not getting hit and flanking with greater ease are damned useful; moreso than sneak attack dice, cause so many things are immune to sneaks.

Outside of shadow hand, the Setting Sun ignore difficult terrain stance is a boon to chargers I find

eggs

2012-12-12, 12:16 PM

Just every guide/suggestion I've seen has been "Go TWF, Assassin Stance/Shadow Blade" and I'd like to see how to make a character a little less rogue-ish, that's all :)
The thing that makes that tricky is that it's the kind of build the other ToB classes support better - Swordsage can do it, but there does become a question of why not use the other classes.

I mean, you could get a solid brute melee Swordsage build out of:
Swordsage 3/Barbarian 1/Crusader 1/Swordsage 1/Barbarian 1/Crusader 1/Swordsage 12
[Feats directed toward Knockdown and AoOs, with minimal investments in Barbarian-style melee combat]
But it becomes a bit questionable what so much Swordsage is doing there instead of Warblade or more Crusader.

That said, Swordsage definitely has a place in Wis-focused melee builds that aren't dex-focused, even if they wouldn't normally be considered "Swordsage builds" - things like:
Swordsage 2/Paladin 4/Warmind 10/Swordsage 4
Swordsage 2/Paladin of Tyranny 4/Disciple of Thrymm 10/Swordsage 4
Ranger 1/Swordsage 6/Nentyar Hunter 5/Swordsage 8
Ranger 1/Swordsage 6/Dark Hunter 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 9/Swordsage 1

Dusk Eclipse

2012-12-12, 12:26 PM

A dip into Shiba Protector makes it very Wis SAD

Draz74

2012-12-12, 01:53 PM

Just every guide/suggestion I've seen has been "Go TWF, Assassin Stance/Shadow Blade" and I'd like to see how to make a character a little less rogue-ish, that's all :)
IMO, the reason that it's hard to get an answer to this is that the answer is pretty easy. :smallwink: That is, it's pretty difficult to make a Swordsage that sucks, as long as you understand basic melee tactics and know about the Adaptive Style feat in case your encounters last longer than your Readied Maneuvers.

Yeah, there are literally too many decent Swordsage builds (who fight with sword-n-board or a two-handed martial weapon) for me to even know where to start enumerating them. And they aren't all that different from each other in power. You'll do fine with one who just specializes in all the Diamond Mind strikes. But you'll also do fine if you mix in some Setting Sun strikes, non-TWF-focused Tiger Claw strikes, and even Stone Dragon strikes. It all just depends what you want your character's favorite tactics to be.

well, I for one think that assasins stance is not that good. If you are not able to use it as a way to enter some prestige class, or get craven (which is still very arguable) it deals 7 points of damage more per attack, and only under certain circumstances.
To be fair, it gets a good deal better if you are depending on Sneak Attack anyway (e.g. a 1-level dip in Rogue, plus Craven) or if you have to spend most of your time in a Shadow Hand stance because you don't want your Shadow Blade feat to be wasted.

But yeah, +7 situational damage per attack isn't too amazing, and if I'm playing a Swordsage, I'd rather have a flexible build than a max-DPS build. So I tend to be underwhelmed by Assassin's Stance compared to how many recommendations it receives.

obviously, when you are able to dump a full attack with two weapons on a flatfooted / flanked opponent, it becomes big.
But in my experience, even flanking comes up FAR less than people account for.
(Might be a special thing with my group, though).
Probably. Most groups don't seem to have a hard time generating flanking -- and this should go double for Swordsages, with their mobility or such maneuvers as Distracting Ember. (Or, if their sneak attack damage comes from another source rather than Assassin's Stance, then the Island of Blades stance becomes amazing. And still compatible with Shadow Blade.)

Obviously again, you have maneuvers which faciliate sneak attacks (cloak of deception as the most prominent), and other maneuvers which faciliate multiple strikes even after a move action. (sudden leap, wolf fang strike, flashing sun, and many more on higher levels).
Nitpick: Flashing Sun doesn't work after taking a move action.

(The downside which makes spring attack tauted as a trap is that you cannot full attack with it)

You can't use a strike with spring attack. Spring attack allows an attack in the middle, not a standard action.
Spring Attack is tauted as a trap for many other reasons. Talya's comment here is the major one, but it also has Dodge and Mobility as prerequisites. Probably not worth it, even with Desert Wind Dodge as an option. Unless you're going for Master of Nine and you can get Mobility via magic armor. Then Spring Attack ... still isn't worth taking, thanks to Talya's insight.

Ride-By Attack isn't much better, since it can only be used while charging. IIRC, that makes it incompatible with most Swordsage maneuvers other than Bounding Assault and Pouncing Charge (and the latter brings us back to the full attack context anyway).

Flyby Attack, by contrast, is awesome, especially for ToB characters who pick up a lot of good Standard Action strikes.

Obviously a third, this is only useful when you have room to move, and it is easily foiled by your DM (who can foil all the sneak you can dish out with some uncanny dodging, too, btw. Or undead. Or plants. Or dragons).
Dragons? :smallconfused:

So, to make a long story short, I would go dragonborn or raptorean (both give you a glide, thus a fly speed, which is enough to go for fly-by attack). One feat cost instead of the many feat needed for two weapon fighting, which gives you greater flexibility what else to do.
Both good options, although I don't think gliding counts as a Fly speed by RAW, so you'll have to wait until you can actually Fly (Level 5 or 6 depending on race, IIRC) before taking Flyby Attack. Not a big deal, since you don't get an iterative attack until Level 8 anyway.

The reason Assassin's Stance is so valued is that it is the only worthwhile combat stance a Swordsage has access for most of it's career. Blood in the water can potentially have a higher damage; but unless you are using the "Sleeping Raven Blood Frenzy Trick" or somehowget a 2-20 threat range on your weapon it is even more situational than Assassin Stance, Hear the unseen can be useful against invisible enemies; but it is relatively easy to get permanent see invisibility or even blindsight with the Blindfold of true Darkness. the only other good combat stance is Stance of Alacrity and that doesn't comes online until level 15.
Eh. Swordsage stances might all be situational, but Assassin's Stance is no exception. As per above discussion, it's only awesome if (1) you trigger Sneak Attack, (2) you get a full attack, and (3) your target isn't immune to precision damage.

There are lots of Swordsage Stances that can compete with that, especially if you're not confined to Shadow Hand by your feats.
Stance of Clarity is decent in a boss fight, which are the most common "hard" fights for many playgroups. (It's worse than useless in a fight with a bunch of mooks, so don't take it as your first stance if you can help it.)

Hunter's Sense is decent utility. Hearing the Air too, and it's arguably a lower opportunity cost than similar magic items. (Blindfold of True Darkness does come with that horrible "unaware of anything outside 30 feet" restriction. And Hearing the Air does also grant a Listen bonus, which can be very nice.)

Pearl of Black Doubt ... can be awesome or useless, depending what kinds of monsters you fight. Or so I hear.

Step of the Wind is awesome if your DM actually uses difficult terrain in your battle areas.

Shifting Defense is just pure, unmitigated awesome, available at Level 9. Unless your DM is crazy and gives it one of the liberal interpretations that makes it broken-powerful instead of awesome. :smallamused:

Leaping Dragon Stance is decent if you are very Tiger Claw-focused.

Island of Blades is awesome if your party includes a Rogue, or if you have a Rogue dip + Craven. Even without these factors, a +2 bonus from near-automatic flanking can be a nice perk, especially with a reach weapon.

Child of Shadow is good defense if you have a mobile fighting style (e.g. Flyby Attack).

Roots of the Mountain (with a reach weapon) is decent battlefield control. Not as good as Thicket of Blades, but still pretty good.

Crushing Weight of the Mountain ... ok, I have to admit, if you're focused on grappling, I have no idea why you'd be a Swordsage rather than a Warblade. So maybe cross this one off the list.

Flame's Blessing is a good option to have in your pocket when you meet a fire-using monster or NPC.

The thing that makes that tricky is that it's the kind of build the other ToB classes support better - Swordsage can do it, but there does become a question of why not use the other classes.

Not really. The answer is pretty clear: "More skill points, cherry-pick from Setting Sun and Shadow Hand maneuvers." That can be enough to make up for the lower Hit Die and the Medium BAB. Then the inferior recovery mechanic is balanced out by the great flexibility of Knowing and Readying more maneuvers.

Phaederkiel

2012-12-12, 05:59 PM

oooos, you are right, neither spring attack nor ride-by work with maneuvers per raw. I'd say that you could probably getting your dm to allow maneuvers with spring attack as in "maneuvers were not invented when this was printed", but ride-by is seemingly off limits. Or can your mount move there and then you can attack? The only character I ever saw using ride-by was a centaur, who did not have the problem.

I have a flying Swordsage in my group and thougt the rest of the modes would work likewise. I´d say you gain a fly speed by gliding, but I am not really sure.
It is not really that good without the ability to really fly anyway. Shadow jaunt upwards can only make you glide that much.

A propos shadow jaunt. I noticed that the long text in the book does not mention how much you can bring with you in a jaunt (most similar spells do), simply stating "you". This can mean anything from you with the piano you are lifting over your head to you without clother or weapons....

say, is shifting defense as guano-crazy as i just read it? To me, it sounds like you do the step BEFORE you are hit...and probably will work against at ranged attacks and ranged touch attacks, too.

Or are there are even worse "liberal" interpretations?
edit2: well, obviously RAI it means you move after any missing attack. But its really sloppy written.

edit: BTW, at least dodge has millions of feats that require it and mobility has elusive target, which is so good that it really offsets two worthless feats.
It is the single best tactical maneuver besides the mighty shock trooper, is it not? Three godly options, all without much preparation. (and if you think cause overreach isn't godly, you haven't seen a single character running through a room tripping 7 opponents. stupid chain, eat your heart)

Phaederkiel

2012-12-15, 05:56 AM

In something unrelated to my above post (and since that post is 3 days old by now, so I do not want to edit it any more), the swordsage in my group has just decided to go craven.

So I have a chance to change my opinion on assasins stance based on real play.

I will write in later how that worked out for her.

Metahuman1

2013-01-11, 10:39 AM

With Regaurds to your comments about Pouncing Charge Maneuver.

There is also a spell in I believe the spell compendium for druids to get charge, and some wild shape forms also have it. Further, if Memory serves me, there is a Psionic Power that gives it to Psi-warriors, though I'm unsure if other Psionic classes have access to this power, and there is an Incarnum Soul Meld Which gives Totemists Access to Pounce. Don't know if Other Incarnum classes get it automatically or not, but characters who can sink a couple of feats or a dip there can get pounce that way.

And it's weird, I always though Swordsages got Iron Heart. Guess I really will be dipping Warblade when I have to build my martial arts one soon.

Don't suppose sections for unarmed variant are coming terribly soon are they?

Tokuhara

2013-01-11, 12:52 PM

As a small not (if you're not above using Dragon Magazine and a small sub-rule), there are two races that are pretty good for a swordsage.

Lesser Axani (from Dragon Magazine) get +2 Intelligence and Wisdom for 0LA, making them a scary-good skillmonkey with a decent AC.

Lesser Asimar are also good at +2 Wisdom and Charisma for the same 0LA, making them good at Diplomancy and with a good AC much like the Axani

Velikolepni

2013-01-26, 04:59 AM

bendking

2013-01-26, 06:29 AM

Hopefuly this guide is still getting updated, I used it to create my current character, and im having a blast.

Metahuman1

2013-01-27, 09:48 AM

Draz74

2013-01-27, 11:43 AM

Do you think that it would be balanced, if as a houserule one were to modify the desert wind stance fiery assault from "gain +1d6 fire damage" to "half the fire damage you do through desert wind maneuvers is searing and thus not affected by resistance/immunities" (similar to the feat searing spell)?
I like it. That stance is worthless right now, and this would make it a must-have ... but, unlike other homebrew fixes I've seen (usually involving a feat), making it a stance still means the Swordsage has to pay some cost for the ability.

Yes, I think it would be pretty balanced.

For a desert wind house rule, I'd be more interested in "When you choose your first desert wind maneuver, you enter a sub-school of desert wind. That Sub school comes with an energy type. You pick the energy type when you get your first maneuver form the desert wind school, and afterwords, all desert wind maneuvers use the selected energy type. this choice cannot be changed once made. "

And then just give them ALL the energy types to choose form, thus allowing Desert wind to get around the "Everything is resistant or immune to fire." problem.
Don't get me wrong: I have no problem with this option. But even if you're allowing Arctic Cold-Sages and so forth, an individual PC will still run into monsters that are immune to their chosen element, which still "nerfs" them beyond fun for that battle.

So even if you include this option, I still recommend changing the Stance as Velikolepni suggested.

Would that make Desert Wind over powered?

No.

Metahuman1

2013-01-27, 11:52 AM

I like it. That stance is worthless right now, and this would make it a must-have ... but, unlike other homebrew fixes I've seen (usually involving a feat), making it a stance still means the Swordsage has to pay some cost for the ability.

Yes, I think it would be pretty balanced.

Don't get me wrong: I have no problem with this option. But even if you're allowing Arctic Cold-Sages and so forth, an individual PC will still run into monsters that are immune to their chosen element, which still "nerfs" them beyond fun for that battle.

So even if you include this option, I still recommend changing the Stance as Velikolepni suggested.

No.

Even if I open up thinks like "Desert Dryness (Dessicaiton Damage.) Motions Energy (force Damage.) And Snapping Blows (Sonic based on the sounds of battle such as your sleeve and pant legs making a snap sound when you throw a punch of kick correctly or the snapping of your enemy's bones when you hit him hard enough.) "?

Draz74

2013-01-27, 11:59 AM

Even if I open up thinks like "Desert Dryness (Dessicaiton Damage.) Motions Energy (force Damage.) And Snapping Blows (Sonic based on the sounds of battle such as your sleeve and pant legs making a snap sound when you throw a punch of kick correctly or the snapping of your enemy's bones when you hit him hard enough.) "?

Desert Dryness would still be worthless against a construct. Snapping Blows would still by worthless against a Slaad. Motion's Energy ... well, actually, there are very very few RAW monsters with Force immunity, AFAIK. So that one might actually not need an immunity-piercing ability.

But if you include things like this, you have to ask yourself: would anyone ever play a good ol' classic fire-throwing Swordsage anymore?

Velikolepni

2013-01-29, 11:30 AM

Gharkash

2013-01-29, 12:12 PM

What if you remove the type completely, and let one chose the "particles" of his DW maneuvers? Maybe make it damage that does not get reduced from DR. How would this affect the power and usefulness of the discipline? (I had thought of this when i was trying to integrate DW to Shadow Hand and could not find a proper damage type)

Phaederkiel

2013-01-29, 12:13 PM

Is the problem not ultimately DM-dependent?

I mean, if he does not use a prescripted adventure, he puts the monsters in.

He should neither make all nor make no monsters fire immune, as to balance your abilities against the rest of the party.

And if your DM plays a prescripted adventure, the chances are far higher that you will see a lot of precision-immunes than fire-immunes.

Velikolepni

2013-01-29, 12:23 PM

I think that the following two tactical feats should be mentioned: Elusive Target and Clarion Commander.

The "Cause Overreach" part of Elusive target can be very useful for trip based build. Combine it with the maneuver desert tempest, move around the battlefield attacking people and use their attacks of opportunity to trip them.

Clarion Commander can only be realistically obtained by dipping into Crusader or Warblade but gives the option "perpetual flank" (DC 20 Intimidate check + attack to make the target flanked for 10 rounds) that can be very useful to sneak attack focused builds.

RFLS

2013-01-29, 01:47 PM

Hey, finally, an update! It's been three months, but I'm back, and I've updated the multiclass section. Suggestions for other classes to include there are more than welcome. I'll be going over the feats section a bit later, and then even later today is the adaptations section. If people would PM me or just write out here builds they've used as a Swordsage, I'll be picking examples of each type that I feel best do their job.

RFLS

2013-01-29, 01:56 PM

The big relevant feats for a tripper build:
Improved Trip - Obviously.
Knockdown (here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown); originally Sword and Fist?) - Hit someone with a strike and knock them down with a trip at the same time. May prompt another attack from Improved Trip if successful (but I've never seen a group actually use it that way).
Jotunbrud (Races of Faerun) - Big size bonus to trips. Can become less useful at higher levels if using anything to increase the character's size (which frankly, is probably a good idea)
Combat Reflexes - Useful for most Swordsages to get maximum attacks at high attack bonuses despite low BA, but especially useful with a tripper's control element, and the AoOs provoked by creatures standing back up.
[Spiked] Chain Proficiency - 15ft reach, finesse-able, trippable. It's hoaky, but it's a great feat.
Defensive Throw - Free Trips when creatures miss you. Demands a lot of prerequisites, but beside Dodge, they're all prereqs a Swordsage can use anyway (unarmed SSs or those with Monk dips anyway).
Great Throw (supposedly from OA, really from the web (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060413a)) - Automatic unarmed damage and a bit of control on a successful trip. For unarmed Swordsages or Monk/Swordsages that can muster a decent base damage, it's makes a nifty combo with Knockdown. For straightclassed Swordsages, its feat requirements are just to strict.
Confound the Bigfolk (Races of the Wild) - A bit unusual in that it's more useful for Small sneak attack builds than it is for a more standard tripper, but gives a nifty trip option that completely disregards size, as well as a way to force flat-footed status on larger creatures. (And note that there's a Monk 1 sub level Champions of Valor Web enhancement that knocks one of its major prereqs out as a bonus feat)
Distant Horizon (ToB) - It seems appropriate on first glance, but it's probably worth mentioning that it's kind of terrible - the prereq feat keys off Stunning Fist, which is just a nasty path to invest resources in, the feat doesn't let you tank Intelligence in the way you'd probably like to, and the trip bonus is only circumstantial.

Wolf Berserker from Unapproachable East might also be relevant for cranking the modifier and circumventing Improved Trip's MAD problems, but it kind of dictates a specific build.

On grapplers, the Swordsage specifically doesn't add a whole lot beside constrict (12k market value for a similar graft), but there are some cool combos that can be fitted together with:
Improved Grapple - Again, obviously.
Scorpion's Grasp (Sandstorm) - Improved Grab, minus the size limit. So you can treat the grapple as an added control effect while you hit people with strikes or normal attacks as usual.
Jotunbrud (Races of Faerun) - Again, a size bonus, and size bonuses are good.
Mancatcher Proficiency (Complete Warrior) - I'm the only person I've ever see talk about this weapon/feat, but it's Improved Grab up to your own size category with a reach weapon (so the target can't necessarily hit back) and any miscellaneous bonuses you have to the attack roll apply to the grapple. So with Greater Magic Weapon on a Discipline Weapon, it's a ramped-up Improved Grab, and reach-grapple and +8 modifier, all for one feat.
Distant Horizon (ToB) - As with the tripper, but more so (since it requires some tripping proficiency as well).

Just quoting this over here where I can use it. Nothing to see, move along.

Actana

2013-02-05, 08:28 AM

I'd like to argue that Flashing Sun is better than Purple. While it's not terribly great on it's own, you can combine it with TWF and Insightful Strike, which gives the wisdom bonus to all the attacks made in the round. The bonus damage can quickly get very high. With TWF it's already 3 attacks for a x3 Wisdom modifier damage, and that only gets higher as you gain more Wisdom and iterative attacks. The -2 penalty does hurt, but can be mitigated by Cloak of Deception or other similar bonuses.

My level 8 swordsage dealt some 150 damage in one round with Flashing Sun, Burning Blade, TWF and Assassin's Stance. Granted, I had a fair bit of luck with the rolls, but regardless, Flashing Sun can be really powerful with the right combination.

Greenish

2013-02-05, 08:34 AM

Just quoting this over here where I can use it. Nothing to see, move along.Spiked Chain (like other reach weapons) doubles your reach, so medium creatures would have just 10 ft. reach. Wolf totem barbarian is from Unearthed Arcana.

[Edit]: Also, yay for handbook!

Talya

2013-02-05, 09:52 AM

[Spiked] Chain Proficiency - 15ft reach, finesse-able, trippable. It's hoaky, but it's a great feat.

Spiked Chain has only 10' reach for medium creatures.
(Everything else is right.)

Phaederkiel

2013-02-13, 10:41 AM

after 2 sessions in which the swordsage in my party never was able to sneak even once (mainly due to really rotten luck, every other character would have been disabled too, so it is not the "difficult to set sneaks up"-argument), she now had a session where she could do the following routine two times:

win ini / surprise foe
be in assasin stance already
activate burning blade
flyby with wolf fang strike
hit twice, dealing (3d6 plus 10 plus 1d8 plus 5) and (3d6 plus 10 plus 1d4 plus 2)

thus dealing once 59 and once 52 dmg, defeating two encounters before they even could move or, in one case even roll for ini.

This is quite good damage on lvl 5, so color me impressed.
Important is, though, that burning blade is nearly excactly as good as craven and asssasins stance are combined.

And it is easier to set up.

(obviously, craven and assasins stance are MUCH better if you only use swordsage as a dip)

Gildedragon

2013-02-13, 05:21 PM

It may be worth talking equipment and non swordsage stance acquisition.
Personally I've found that shadowsilk hide armor is pretty nice for a sneaky type; a mithral tumbler's breastplate can be quite good but it does require exotic armor proficiency.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-02-16, 12:55 AM

For a desert wind house rule, I'd be more interested in "When you choose your first desert wind maneuver, you enter a sub-school of desert wind. That Sub school comes with an energy type. You pick the energy type when you get your first maneuver form the desert wind school, and afterwords, all desert wind maneuvers use the selected energy type. this choice cannot be changed once made. "

And then just give them ALL the energy types to choose form, thus allowing Desert wind to get around the "Everything is resistant or immune to fire." problem.

Would that make Desert Wind over powered?Perhaps make it so that they can use either fire or cold damage (hot desert day, cold night). Perhaps the characters are still only immune to fire damage at higher levels.

I don't know if it solves the entire problem, or if it's too powerful. I can't image that there are too many creatures that are immune/resistant to both fire and cold damage, though.

Greenish

2013-02-16, 03:02 AM

I can't image that there are too many creatures that are immune/resistant to both fire and cold damage, though.Most demons and devils, for one. Angels too, for that matter.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-02-16, 04:41 AM

Most demons and devils, for one. Angels too, for that matter.Always with the extra planar things, ruining the fun. But really, unless someone could change their energy type to whatever they wanted it to be, they're going to run into problems against those creature types.

Among other things
Devils are immune to fire and have cold resist 10
Demons have fire and cold resist 10
Angels are immune cold and have resist fire 10

Well, at least you would have options that would allow you to ignore immunities? It would also be more effective than poison >.>

Douglas

2013-02-20, 02:03 PM

I disagree with your rating for Flashing Sun. It is one of precisely three* ways to get Discipline Focus (Insightful Strikes) to apply to a full attack. For that reason, its low level, and that it adds an extra attack to get the bonus, I consider it quite good.

* The other two are Pouncing Charge and Time Stands Still.

Phelix-Mu

2013-03-10, 01:00 PM

I shall have to check out this "Flashing Sun." It's the talk of the town.

RFLS

2013-04-02, 12:22 PM

Added most of the PrCs from ToB in. I'd really like PrC suggestions from other books, but I'm content to leave it with just what's there.

RFLS

2013-04-02, 12:50 PM

Updated the variants, homebrew disciplines, and porting to pathfinder bit. I'm seriously considering leaving the builds section out, as it's hard to go wrong in a Swordsage build, but it's equally hard to pick the best ones.

RFLS

2013-04-03, 03:56 PM

Re-formatted the races section. Hopefully it's a little more readable now.

Shining Wrath

2013-04-03, 04:27 PM

As a comment about multi-class, the Warblade bit also works in reverse: have a Warblade, but dip 2 levels of Swordsage to gain utility maneuvers and stances.

Phelix-Mu

2013-04-03, 04:48 PM

Added most of the PrCs from ToB in. I'd really like PrC suggestions from other books, but I'm content to leave it with just what's there.

I think Exemplar deserves mention. Any class that gets good utility out of skills can use a dose of Skill Mastery, and access to all skills is always nice. More than one level in the PrC isn't that great for a swordsage, though.

Talya

2013-04-05, 08:31 AM

I think Exemplar deserves mention. Any class that gets good utility out of skills can use a dose of Skill Mastery, and access to all skills is always nice. More than one level in the PrC isn't that great for a swordsage, though.

It should be noted that a literal interpretation of the wording on PrCs in TOB, is that all PrCs from any source give full initiator level to Swordsage/Warblade/Crusader, rather than the half-progression base classes get. While they don't progress maneuvers known or other class features, this has a benefit with TOB classes - the level of maneuvers you can select is entirely dependant on your initiator level.

(Spellcasters don't get the same advantage from feats and such that only boost caster level, since their spell selection is based on class level progression.)

RFLS

2013-04-05, 03:59 PM

Phelix-Mu

2013-04-05, 08:27 PM

Douglas

2013-04-05, 09:27 PM

It should be noted that a literal interpretation of the wording on PrCs in TOB, is that all PrCs from any source give full initiator level to Swordsage/Warblade/Crusader, rather than the half-progression base classes get. While they don't progress maneuvers known or other class features, this has a benefit with TOB classes - the level of maneuvers you can select is entirely dependant on your initiator level.

(Spellcasters don't get the same advantage from feats and such that only boost caster level, since their spell selection is based on class level progression.)
This is incorrect. The book states that "in most cases" PrCs give full initiator level advancement, not all. And then it gives no explicit guideline for which ones - except that 7 (out of 8, and the exception is also the only one that doesn't give maneuvers known) of the PrCs in the same book explicitly and individually state that they grant full initiator level. Considering that the sentence in question is immediately followed by an instruction to see the PrC chapter in the same book for details, it is clear that the intended meaning is merely an observation about the set of PrCs in the same book. PrCs from other books do not give full IL advancement unless they specifically say so.

super dark33

2013-04-06, 04:55 AM

This handbook, even though its unfinished, helped me with my swordsage
Thank you :smallsmile:

Maybe you can include good gestalt options?

Jopustopin

2013-04-08, 10:17 AM

This handbook, even though its unfinished, helped me with my swordsage
Thank you :smallsmile:

Maybe you can include good gestalt options?

Can't imagine it gets much better than Druid // Swordsage

RFLS

2013-04-08, 10:46 AM

Maybe you can include good gestalt options?

Gestalt and multiclass options tend to be roughly on par, with the general exception that you can afford to be caster//non-caster

Talya

2013-04-08, 05:30 PM

it is clear that the intended meaning is merely an observation about the set of PrCs in the same book.

No argument from me here, however...

PrCs from other books do not give full IL advancement unless they specifically say so.

The book does not specify this. It does say that (most) PrCs give full IL advancement, then the single one that does not specifically mentions it. Extrapolating this, since it doesn't mention PrCs in other books as being somehow different from PrCs in TOB, when you assume literal "Rules-as-Written", Divine Crusader from CDiv gives you full initiator level. While I generally favor "obvious intent" over semantical wrangling, I occasionally change my mind when it comes to giving melee nice things.

Phelix-Mu

2013-04-08, 08:18 PM

No argument from me here, however...

The book does not specify this. It does say that (most) PrCs give full IL advancement, then the single one that does not specifically mentions it. Extrapolating this, since it doesn't mention PrCs in other books as being somehow different from PrCs in TOB, when you assume literal "Rules-as-Written", Divine Crusader from CDiv gives you full initiator level. While I generally favor "obvious intent" over semantical wrangling, I occasionally change my mind when it comes to giving melee nice things.

I'm starting to like your thinking. That gives my epic character an IL of...13th, instead of 11th. I think. Wait. 14th? Yeah. Wow. That opens up a couple of nice options. Shadow Blink, here I come?!

Phelix-Mu

2013-04-14, 06:50 PM

It would be really, really great if, in the list of maneuvers, you put the number of pre-req maneuvers for each. This is also an important aspect in ranking the relative usefulness of one maneuver or another.

thanks

Hyena

2013-05-07, 02:27 PM

Is improved trip even worth is for a swordsage, who dumps his strength?

Callin

2013-05-07, 02:31 PM

No argument from me here, however...

The book does not specify this. It does say that (most) PrCs give full IL advancement, then the single one that does not specifically mentions it. Extrapolating this, since it doesn't mention PrCs in other books as being somehow different from PrCs in TOB, when you assume literal "Rules-as-Written", Divine Crusader from CDiv gives you full initiator level. While I generally favor "obvious intent" over semantical wrangling, I occasionally change my mind when it comes to giving melee nice things.

That has always been my RAW interpretation of PrCs and IL.

Ace Nex

2013-05-08, 02:38 AM

Very solid handbook, I love it!

Manly Man

2013-07-08, 05:04 PM

I realize this comes across as kind of necromantic, but bear with me please, as it is relevant to the thread.

One of the homebrew disciplines I'd recommend to put on the list is the Falling Anvil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122824), for the flavor of being a complete lunatic in battle. It might mesh well with a few others, like Setting Sun, in the sense that it involves trickery and has a good few counters.

That, and being bat$#!% crazy is an unbelievable amount of fun, even if it comes across as a slightly weak discipline.

Adverb

2013-10-31, 09:49 AM

I put even odds on whether we get a full, uncursed Swordsage handbook before D&D 5 hits shelves.

In the hopes of tipping those odds, some thoughts to add based on the ToB stuff I've played so far:
* Goliaths. The dex penalty makes them unappealing to the must-pump-dex crowd, but I think they're a solid choice, and with LA buyoff they're in the same tier as Whisper Gnomes and Humans. They get an effective +6 on all trip checks, making them possibly the best choice for the optimized tripper, and if they want to Baffling Defense they have a racial bonus to it. They're twice as good at Sudden Leap as anyone else. More damage per swing due to str and bigger weapons - +6ish avg on 2h weapons, +3ish avg for TWF types. A low dex hurts at low levels, but at low levels strength can be more important than every other stat combined. A Con boost never hurts anyone.
From the same book,
* Steady Concentration. Yeah, there's other stuff to do with your feats, but this plus the DM save counters means you can take 10 on your first save-or-suck. Possibly less efficient than taking Exemplar 1.
* Burning Blade. This scales surprisingly well due to the lack of a max-IL cap on a level 1 maneuver. It's not the why-didn't-you-take-this that Moment of Perfect Mind is, but it stands the test of time.
* Emerald Razor. This is good for a melee dipper who's going full-bore power attack. For a full SS, the idea of being able to reach out and tap someone and do full damage is neat as a flavor thing, but there is a tremendous opportunity cost in not being able to dash out some other maneuver. I'd rather drop 3k on a Heartseeker Amulet.
* Comet Throw. IMO, this is a top-tier move for any Swordsage that's not terrible at tripping. Prone is a nice debuff to any monster. 4d6 damage isn't bad. But then you get to do another 4d6-and-prone to a second opponent, which makes it good. Where this really shines, though, is when you're fighting a mixed group of opponents. Most monsters are good at Reflex saves *or* good at trip checks, but not both. With this maneuver a halfling can trip a Nightmare. The save DC doesn't scale well over your career, but almost no strikes scale well anyway. If your DM believes that all Mighty Throw maneuvers get the free Improved Trip swing, I think Comet Throw becomes gold in the 'Seriously, justify not taking this' kind of way - there are only two other L4s that are competitive, and you'll get to take three overall.
* Charging Minotaur. IME, published modules almost always have one or two scenes where there's a cliff and a villain and you wish you had Improved Bull Rush just this once. The homebrew campaign DMs I've played with don't set up these encounters too often, though. This is a good candidate for taking at ECL 1, then swapping out ASAP and keeping a martial script in your back pocket.
* Half-Giants. See most of what I said about Goliaths, minus 2 Str, plus 2 power points. Expending psionic focus to take 15 on Concentration is always nice, but with Diamond Mind it gives you a once-per-encounter "I win at this" button to be used on saves or damage, your choice.
* Sense Motive. This skill is never gold. Is it a nice thing that makes you more relevant out of combat? Yes. But there is exactly one maneuver that uses it, despite it being a "key skill" for a discipline.
* Shadow Sun Ninja: This class is generally weak in that it lacks maneuvers and most of the class abilities are less cool than what you'd get if you just took more Swordsage. But if you're playing a character with scaling unarmed damage - i.e, the ubiquitous-but-unclear Unarmed Swordsage variant - taking 1 level of this becomes very, very good. +2 to all saves is good for anyone, and level 1 comes with a maneuver, and around the time you become eligible for SSN is a time where there's very good SH/SS maneuvers anyway. The clincher here is the CustServ ruling that if you don't use the healing on someone else, it automatically goes to you as a free action on your turn. At a super high-op table in-combat healing doesn't really work, but for a Tier 3 class this is pretty sweet.
* Master of Nine: Swordsages get the most maneuvers known and readied but the worst recovery mechanic. Crusaders and Warblades get less maneuvers but much better recovery mechanics. With swapping up, a Swordsage gets 3 new maneuvers known every 2 levels, and 1 new readied. Mo9 gets a slight upgrade in known/readied over SS. If I were going in to Mo9, Swordsage is not the chassis I would use. Dual Stance and Counter Stance are fun toys, though, and the class is almost full-BAB once you hit level 5.

Hooray for Swordsage handbook!

RFLS

2013-11-30, 01:19 AM

RFLS

2013-11-30, 01:23 AM

Alright, looking around for solid Prestige Class options. Anyone got suggestions? I'm going through the following books first:

DMG
Complete Champion
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Warrior
Races of Stone

Tvtyrant

2013-11-30, 01:29 AM

I really like most of your handbook, it does a great job. I do wish with some of the options you would remove the snark and just make an honest assessment. Just because most people reading the handbook will know why improved trip and human are good doesn't mean everyone will, especially as you put them both in gold.

In general I think a little more emphasis on exactly what things (like Dark Stalker) do would make the handbook a little better, but again it is quite excellent overall.

Edit: On prestige classes I would mention Fist of the Forest for Unarmed Swordsages. It is a level feat intensive, but a 1 level dip for a step up in unarmed damage, con modifier to AC (on top of your wisdom and dex!) and a rage effect that boosts dexterity instead is pretty great. On a dexterity focused Swordsage it is amazing, less so on a strength focused one.

RFLS

2013-11-30, 01:37 AM

I really like most of your handbook, it does a great job. I do wish with some of the options you would remove the snark and just make an honest assessment. Just because most people reading the handbook will know why improved trip and human are good doesn't mean everyone will, especially as you put them both in gold.

In general I think a little more emphasis on exactly what things (like Dark Stalker) do would make the handbook a little better, but again it is quite excellent overall.

I've incorporated the specific suggestions made here, and will be evaluating the rest of the handbook in this light as I go on. Thank you.

RFLS

2013-11-30, 01:57 AM

List of PRCs for me to evaluate in the morning:

Arcane Trickster
Exotic Weapons Master
Fist of the Forest
Kensai
Ordained Champion
Shadowdancer
Telflammar Shadow Lord
Uncanny Trickster

Until then....sleeeeeeep.

Adverb

2013-11-30, 03:03 AM

I find Swordsage to be one of the least prestige-friendly classes. A lot of the class's oomph comes from maneuvers known/readied, and the most maneuver-heavy PrC costs five feats to get in and... well, see what I said about Mo9 above. If "+1 initiator level" classes were as common as "+1 spellcaster level" classes, this'd be different, but as it is, PrCs seem like they are mostly for dipping. I agree wholeheartedly with your thoughts on Exemplar, and I think Chameleon can be awesome if you don't mind burning 20 skill points on stuff most swordsages aren't into.

That said, some stuff that might work:
Exotic Weapon Master 1 (for Flurry with your spiked chain)
Occult Slayer 2 (for Vicious Strike)
Shadowdancer 1 (for the usual reasons)
Thief-Acrobat 1 (sub-optimal, but neat increase in mobility)

Kensai has the right feel, but is a pretty sucktastic class. Cloaked Dancer has a similar problem, though if I had a DM who would let me turn +1 spellcasting into +1 maneuver progression, I would probably try to play one.

Uncanny Trickster is interesting. The usual half-IL plus Legacy Champion shenanigans apply here, so you don't lose much maneuver-wise. Bad will save, and if you're not using fractional you lose a point of BAB for walking in to the class. And skill tricks are marginally less useful when you have tons of other stuff to be doing with your swift actions. But the mobility skill tricks feel swordsagey, and the UnT skill list includes UMD, so if you want to slap that on your Swordsage, this is the way to do it.

IME, the best dips for a Swordsage are base classes - Crusader, Fighter, Monk, Warblade, mix and match two levels of those as you like. Basically, I agree with your multiclass list except as follows:
Crusader - Furious Counterstrike is a good deal for any melee class, even at low levels.
Druid - black, or delete.
Rogue - I haven't seen any builds that I'd want to play that rely on Rogue/Swordsage combinations - not sure why. For the skill list I'd rather take Exemplar or UnT, as mentioned above.

Lastly, Barbarian needs a big warning sign on it. Sure, it's the most frontloaded class in the PHB. But raging means no:
Diamond Mind save counters or Concentration-based strikes
Tumble (also Hide and Move Silently, but this is likely less of a problem)
Recovering maneuvers, even with Adaptive Style

Speaking of Adaptive Style, a fun trick mentioned in older handbooks that I don't see in yours - fire Moment of Alacrity, then use Adaptive Style. Your maneuvers get fully readied in whatever configuration you want, and you go first next round. If you were far down in the initiative order, this is essentially free.

Manly Man

2013-11-30, 08:26 AM

Lastly, Barbarian needs a big warning sign on it. Sure, it's the most frontloaded class in the PHB. But raging means no:
Diamond Mind save counters or Concentration-based strikes
Tumble (also Hide and Move Silently, but this is likely less of a problem)
Recovering maneuvers, even with Adaptive Style

Actually, if your DM allows [Exalted] feats, there's Righteous Wrath, which lets you do things that require concentration and clarity of mind while raging.

Adverb

2013-11-30, 04:46 PM

Manly Man

2013-11-30, 10:12 PM

That sounds awesome!

...except, now that I look at it, you'd need a very friendly ruling for it to be useful here. It says "unusual clarity of mind", but then goes on to say you can do things which any Barbarian can do while raging.

:confused:

Yeah, it's not the best with giving examples. Apparently, they thought that it was obvious just what they meant.

Considering the ways it can be explained, I'd say that the feat makes your anger become far more internalized, kind of like how the maenads are fluffed.

123456789blaaa

2013-11-30, 10:29 PM

TiaC

2013-11-30, 11:59 PM

A Gravetouched Ghoul (template from Libris Mortis) swordsage could be fun. The Contagious Paralysis feat from LM makes anyone that touches the paralyzed target paralyzed themselves. Make a Setting Sun tripper ghoul.

I've played one before, with Improved Paralysis I was able to make a good assassin-type character. Another obscure race that's good for swordsages is Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale. Big boosts to the stats you care about and NA, size large, and blindsight. 3RHD, no LA.

Adverb

2013-12-03, 06:27 AM

Another obscure race that's good for swordsages is Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale.

A mystical ninja whale is possibly the most ridiculous build concept I have heard.

Essence_of_War

2013-12-03, 06:47 AM

Warmind can be a very interesting PrC for the right type of SS's.

It's not hard to qualify for if you're the right race (Half-Giant, Xeph being obvious choices) or willing to take a psionic class dip, and it provides independent power progression (or psywar progression if you're using pathfinder stuff), full BAB, generous hit die, two potentially useful free action buffs and a very neat class ability at 5th level.

Basically if you like std. action strike maneuvers (and the SS has lots), Sweeping Strikes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm#sweepingStrike) can be pretty silly.

Phaederkiel

2013-12-03, 08:05 AM

I just checked the handbook again and saw that a lot of my comments and suggestions have failed to make it....:smalleek:

I hope, this stems from me mainly posting while you were in hospital or had finals:smallbiggrin:

so, i thought iw ould organize some of the better stuff i wrote, perhaps you wil use it:

1. races: I do not see raptorean and dragonborn on your list. Both give a fly speed, which means that they open up the way to fly-by attack, which should be amongst the most golden feat for any maneuver user. Both races are very decent, otherwise.

2. Feats:

Fly-by attack. Not listing it would be madness.
Sandsnare from Sandstorm is interesting for the tripping section
(sand dance, as snowbluff mentioned, is also a nice feat with wis synergy)
elusive target needs a mention (especially since it shares feat tax with master of nine, also good for trippers)
Knowledge devotion is great, especially since you can get it via dipping cleric and have some wis-synergie to first lvl spellcasting.
defensive throw is somewhat cool, but has a stupid amount of prereqs
curling wave strike can be really good with the throwing maneuvers

3 maneuvers:

I still think that insightful strike needs a better rating. It is such a good weapon to have.
Same with burning blade. This should be cyan.

and then I made you a nice list of dipping swordsage packages in this post:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14223988&postcount=107

the other posts i made which i think might be relevant:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14703813&postcount=194
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14333377&postcount=142

Manly Man

2014-01-31, 05:17 AM

This may have been almost two months since the last post, but something you should definitely consider including is the Sleeping Goddess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98409) homebrew discipline. It's Wisdom-focused, has a very fitting theme, and is fantabulous. It makes psionic races all the more viable, and if you multiclass (say, as an Ardent or Psychic Warrior), you have even more points to spend on augmenting maneuvers.

Yes, that's right. There are maneuvers you can augment.

As I said. Fantabulous.

Adverb

2014-05-24, 05:34 PM

I couldn't sleep, and I started writing some stuff. Then I couldn't sleep again, and I finished writing some stuff.

RFLS, you still have time to finish this handbook before D&D 5 comes out!

There's some great unofficial errata here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13292.0

Maneuvers:
Level 1:
Blistering Flourish: 0/5. If this was an at-will class feature that was a swift action it might get used once or twice in an adventurer's career, it's not remotely worth spending a maneuver choice on being able to spend a standard to do this. If you want to inflict the "dazzled" effect, bring JJ "I love lens flares" Abrams with you.
Burning Blade: 3/5. If you'll be doing a lot of full attacking in your life, this is worth taking. The best thing about it is that there's no cap on IL-to-damage, so at high levels this is still worth your time.
Distracting Ember: 3/5. Flanking buddy as a swift! Not bad, especially at low levels when you don't have a lot of other swift actions. And if you're going to be a sneak-attack Swordsage it's even better. The main draw, though, is using this as a 30-foot pole to check for traps with, all day long.
Wind Stride: 1/5. I can't imagine a circumstance where this would be really worth it. There's a better "swift action for a little more move" in Tiger Claw.
Moment of Perfect Mind: 5/5. Take this and move on with your life.
Sapphire Nightmare Blade: 3/5. If you have a very good con check, and difficulty hitting normal ACs and/or bonuses for hitting flatfooted targets, this is very good. The flavor and feel of the strike is awesome. The actual benefit lacks luster.
Counter Charge: 3/5. If your DM likes charging foes, this is a must-have, because you can stop someone else's entire round cold with an immediate action. If your DM forgets that charge exists, you can spend a dozen sessions with this counter wasting a "readied" slot. Know your DM!
Mighty Throw: 4/5. If you're a tripper build, this is where you eat. If not, this is still some decent BFC.
Step of the Wind: 3/5. Know your DM again. When I DM, I suck at terrain and everything is flat and this is a waste for my PCs. For DMs that actually do terrain... well, there's not a lot of stuff in 3.5 that lets you ignore terrain without flying.
Clinging Shadow Strike: 2/5. A respectable debuff for a major threat, but I'd probably rather knock someone prone.
Shadow Blade Technique: 3/5. As D&D 5 optmizers will tell you, "roll 2 d20s, take better" is about +3.5, statistically. So that and the d6 means this is +3.5 to hit or +3.5 to damage, whichever you need more. Neat.
Charging Minotaur: 2/5. This won't come up much. And, yes, at some point in your life there will be a cliff or a ledge or an energy field, and you will be glad to have this club in your bag. But by then you'd probably rather use a Setting Sun throw?
Stone Bones: 3/5. Amazing at low levels! Scales poorly, no surprise. Consider taking this and then keeping it (but never readying it) for Elder/Ancient Mountain Hammer prereq purposes.
Sudden Leap: 2/5, 4/5 if you have the skill points to sink into Jump. This is your non-Travel Devotion way of moving and full attacking.
Wolf Fang Strike: Mandatory/5. This is the only L1 Tiger Claw maneuver that doesn't require you to have other Tiger Claw maneuvers already. The two L2 no-prerequisite strikes are both terrible. This strike being generally quite nice is one of the reasons that L4 Swordsages usually pick Discipline Focus: Tiger Claw.

Level 2:
Burning Brand: 2/5. If it were reach and didn't make you deal fire damage, it'd be better.
Fire Riposte: 3/5. Great when you're actually level 3/4, but rapidly less useful after that. A good maneuver to swap out later.
Flashing Sun: 1/5. If this is what you want out of your PC, start with Monk 2 and go into Swordsage from there.
Hatchling’s Flame: 1/5. Meh.
Action Before Thought: 3/5. Concentration save counters are great! Reflex is usually the least important save - certainly the save on which you care the least about definitely succeeding on one particular save.
Emerald Razor: 1/5. This is what a Heartseeking Amulet is for. Special exception for certain types of Sorcerer-fueled JPM gishes, but even *then*...
Baffling Defense: 2/5. Works on touch AC, which is nice. Scales with your level (if you have the skill points). Is weird. Ultimately, doesn't seem that useful for the average Swordsage, though I'd give it 3/5 for Goliaths, maybemore.
Clever Positioning: 1/5. Mighty Throw is much better.
Cloak of Deception: 4/5. Many, many uses. Shadow Hand continues to be the best school, though definitely not the only school.
Drain Vitality: 2/5. Con damage is always nice, but I'd rather deal HP damage here.
Shadow Jaunt: 3/5. Extreme out-of-combat utility. In-combat not so much.
Mountain Hammer: 5/5. Take this and move on with your life.
Stone Vise: 1/5. Neat idea, doesn't pay off in practice. Spells with standard save DCs can be boosted in a bunch of ways, maneuvers have way fewer.
Claw at the Moon: 2/5. If you really want to get into Tiger Claw, and you really want to never fight with two weapons ever, then this is your way in. Or if you take Swordsage 1 with an IL of 3 or 4, then I might take this over some level 1 stuff.
Rabid Wolf Strike: 1/5. Mechanically, a poor choice. Don't take it unless your concept it the all-out offense guy who gets creamed whenever it's not his turn.

Level 3:
Death Mark: 4/5 at the levels you can first take it, but doesn't scale as you level, so swap it out later, or don't take it at all if you're starting at high level.
Fan the Flames: 2/5. Having a ranged option is super useful for those times when you can't, or don't want to, close to melee. Scales poorly with level, but most importantly Shadow Garrote is way better.
Zephyr Dance: 4/5. Bonus AC only when you need it is like bonus AC all the time.
Insightful Strike: 2/5. Healthy damage, but you probably want to be spending effort on boosting your normal damage, and this ignores that effort.
Mind Over Body: 5/5. Take this and move on with your life.
Devastating Throw: 2/5. If you want to be Throwmaster, Master of Throwing, you're taking this anyway. If you're playing Small or otherwise want to avoid this stuff, you're not taking this. If you're on the fence, wait a level and take Comet Throw, which is way better than plus-one-level should be.
Feigned Opening: 3/5. Of particular interest to tripper builds, or to characters in parties full of flankers that like to gang up on foes. Unarmed Swordsages, take this. Make a non-Improved disarm check, and when they miss on the AoO (due to Clinging Shadows or just your AC), trip them before you disarm them. Walking up to a humanoid, taking their weapon *and* knocking them on their ass all in one round is damn fun.
Shadow Garrote: 4/5. Ranged option is good. Untyped damage is better than fire damage. The range is higher than Fan the Flames. The damage is 1d6 lower, but that's a small price to pay for all that plus an add-on save-or-be-flatfooted. Might not be worth taking in undead-heavy campaigns.
Strength Draining Strike: 2/5. Neat! There are better options.
Bonecrusher: 3/5. +4d6 ain't bad. It's not interesting, but it's not bad. I guess the crit-confirming thing is a thing?
Crushing Weight of the Mountain: 1/5. If you're a grappler, you probably found a way to get Monk damage and find this stance a waste of time.
Stone Dragon’s Fury: 0/5. This strike exists so that you can feel good about noticing that Bonecrusher is strictly better.
Flesh Ripper: 1/5. If this was no-save, or had bonus damage, or something, I might like it? If it had a save penalty, or if it broke DR for a round. As it is, you have to hit, *and* they have to fail their save, and for something like that, I want a payout like Disintegrate.
Soaring Raptor Strike: 3/5. If you encounter larger foes reliably, 4/5. If you are Small and Jump-focused, take this and move on with your life.

Level 4:
Firesnake: 3/5. More if you get into fights with mooks a lot. The damage is okay, and the flexibility of the line is unheard of for AOE damage, but for a maneuver at this level you can do better. On the other hand, maybe this is supposed to stick around like a Flaming Sphere? The text could use some errata.
Searing Blade: 1/5. If you're using Burning Blade in every encounter, upgrade it. Otherwise, burning a level 4 maneuver choice isn't worth +1d6 damage.
Searing Charge: 2/5 if you have flight but not pounce. If you have pounce, 6/5 - take this and grab the Sudden Recovery feat to use it twice. If you don't have pounce or easy/reliable access to flight, this is 4/5. You will start to run into flying opponents, and you'll want to do something about them. A trip or grapple will help a lot, and the damage is nice too. Searing Charge does not include a feather fall effect, so consider having a plan for falling damage other than "well, I have a lot of hit points, I guess."
Bounding Assault: 1/5. There's very little that this does that you can't get "cheaper" with the Twisted Charge skill trick.
Mind Strike: 3/5. Amazingly useful in some circumstances, a waste of time in others. More often the latter, but a Swordsage has room for sidebar maneuvers.
Ruby Nightmare Blade: 3/5. Double damage, 'nuff said.
Comet Throw: 4/5 unless you suck at trip attacks. 4d6 damage to 2 targets, inflict prone on one-or-two targets, and reposition one of them. This is pretty great.
Strike of the Broken Shield: 1/5. The damage is nice, but Reflex-or-flatfoot is sort of disappointing when White Raven Strike inflicts the same effect with no save.
Hand of Death: 3/5. Save-or-flatfoot is okay, but save-or-paralyze is amazing. Attack-and-then-save is usually disappointing since it's two chances to fail, but this attack is a touch attack which can only target flatfooted opponents, so you're probably hitting on a 2. Only being able to target flat-footed opponents is a bit of a downer, though.
Obscuring Shadow Veil: 3/5. Some nice damage, and the debuff is respectable. It'd be nicer if it wasn't a Fort save, but you can't have everything. (Unless you take White Raven Tactics. That's basically like having everything.)
Bonesplitting Strike: 2/5. The no-save con damage is an upgrade over Drain Vitality.
Boulder Roll: 0/5. First, this needs an errata, because it's a full-round action boost, which is confusing. Second, I have been playing D&D3 since it came out, and I have observed precisely zero overrun attempts at my gaming table, ever.
Overwhelming Mountain Strike: 1/5. As many have observed, this should be called "Underwhelming Mountain Strike."
Death From Above: 4/5. If you have the Jump check for it, this is your best pure-damage strike at this level. It's only +4d6, but it's versus flat-footed AC. You're more likely to hit, and you can deal sneak attack damage if you're in Assassin's Stance, which you probably are. The Jump DC is flat so running starts don't matter, and if you have max ranks in Jump and a Haste spell on you, you can make this check even if you roll a 1 and have 4 Strength. Lastly, you get a free reposition after the strike, so if you are sneak attack buddies with the party rogue, you can land on the other side and give her an easy flank.
Fountain of Blood: 2/5. This maneuver is called FOUNTAIN OF BLOOD which is the best thing about it. Fear effects stack (unless they say they don't), so if you have party members who inflict fear, this can break an enemy party, making half of them run uncontrollably, and the other half run controllably once they realize they've lost the fight. If you're the only one putting the fear on, you would probably rather take one of the other super good maneuvers at this level.

Level 5:
Dragon’s Flame: 1/5. This is yet another Desert Wind strike that provides too little AoE damage for too much cost.
Leaping Flame: 3/5. You are a melee character. You want to have an option for dealing with ranged attackers you might not be able to get to otherwise. Take this *or* Mirrored Pursuit but probably not both.
Lingering Inferno: 2/5. +8d6 total damage is good, but fire damage is the worst damage, and the thing you want to damage most is usually the thing you want to kill fastest.
Disrupting Blow: 2/5. Pick the meanest thing on the field with the worst will save, and take it out of commission for a round. Not bad.
Rapid Counter: 2/5. Taking a swing as a swift/immediate can be nice, but I rarely see DM opponents provoke AoOs. A lockdown build could make great use of this, but Swordsages generally don't go for that.
Mirrored Pursuit: 3/5. Take this or Leaping Flame. This allows you to move up to a caster type, ready an action to Mountain Hammer them in the spleen when they cast, and then follow them when they try to get out of your threat range with an immediate action, which doesn't break your ready. Finally, you're the magekiller we all wanted Monks to be back when 3.0 first came out! Leaping Flame is better for situations when you otherwise couldn't get to your target, so know your campaign/likely opponents.
Soaring Throw: 3/5. All the throws are good, but Comet Throw was better.
Stalking Shadow: 1/5. I wouldn't.
Bloodletting Strike: 3/5. 4 con damage is nothing to sneeze at, unless you get sick because your con dropped.
Shadow Stride: 3/5. Yay teleportation! Especially valuable to "all the maneuver" Mo9-ish builds, because it is the only move-action maneuver in all of ToB.
Elder Mountain Hammer: 5/5 if you meet the prerequisites. But most SD strikes that aren't Mountain Hammer aren't very good.
Mountain Avalanche: 1/5. Repeat after me: "I am not a horse."
Dancing Mongoose: Are you a TWF build y/n? If you're not particularly TWF but you do have *some* offhand weapon, it's still two attacks at full bonus as a Swift.
Pouncing Charge: 5/5. I've never seen a build that was eligible for this maneuver, didn't have Pounce already, and had good enough reason to take something else. (Counterexamples welcome.)

Level 6:
Desert Tempest: 1/5. If you could strike a single target more than once, this would be great, even if you had to move extra to do it. But a single full-round action to move your normal speed and still provoking... this is useful in very few battlefield configurations, and most of those configurations are actually Fireball-shaped problems.
Ring of Fire: 3/5. 12d6 is respectable for a zone you can shape, and you can reflect on Johnny Cash's tortured marriage while you do it.
Greater Insightful Strike: 4/5. By now, you have 2/3 DM save counters, and enough cash to go in on a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting. This gives you a concentration check of (14 ranks + 5 competence + 2 con mod) +21, plus 10 on the die, all times 2 is 60 damage. This is respectable, and the damage will scale linearly as you level.
Moment of Alacrity: 5/5. Often gives you an effective extra turn. Paired with an Adaptive Style refresh, once every combat you can burn that extra turn to reshuffle your maneuvers as you see fit, restoring/readying whatever seems best for this fight. Or you can use that turn for more stabbing.
Ballista Throw: 2/5. This is a nice idea! With 2 foes who have line-of-effect to each other, this is a slightly different Comet Throw and thus not worth it. With 3 foes in a line, okay, that's some AoE. With 4+ foes in a 60-foot line, this is great, but that doesn't happen too often.
Scorpion Parry: 4/5, because it works on everything, including Disintegrate.
Ghost Blade: 1/5. Unless you have some supreme source of Sudden Strike damage or something, "ha ha you are flat-footed" isn't worth a maneuver at this level. If this was a boost, I'd for sure take it.
Shadow Noose: 3/5. If you have a valid (already flat-footed) target for this, this is some ranged guaranteed 8d6 plus chance to stun.
Stalker in the Night: 2/5. Super cool idea. Not actually very powerful, unless you're running a solo ninja adventure.
Crushing Vise: 2/5. This should be called "whelming mountain strike".
Iron Bones: 1/5. Oooh, a round of Stoneskin in exchange for not using a good maneuver. Becomes better in a game that's particularly low magic and/or high encounters-per-day.
Irresistible Mountain Strike: 3/5. I have a moral objection to something that allows a save and is called "Irresistable" anything.
Rabid Bear Strike: 3/5. That's a lotta d6... but unless you deal a whole lot of base damage, Greater Insightful Strike is probably better. Sensei Morita says, "Great insight is deadlier than even a rabid bear."
Wolf Climbs the Mountain: Are you Small? Did you enjoy playing Shadows of the Colossus?

Level 7:
Inferno Blade: 1/5. See comments on Searing Blade, plus the plethora of awesome choices here.
Salamander Charge: 2/5. I want this to be awesome, but it isn't. It's Firesnake, plus duration and a single charge attack. Though you *can* Tumble through your opponent's square as part of the charge (DC 25, your Tumble check is unlikely to be below +20), and once the wall is up, you can Setting-Sun people into it.
Avalanche of Blades: 3/5. If your to-hit is really grossly high, hooray! But if it is, you've sort of already won at melee anyway. This is super great for Stormguard Warblades, and less good for Swordsages. Such a cool idea though.
Quicksilver Motion: 1/5. There are magic items that do this.
Hydra Slaying Strike: 4/5 in a low-op game where you fight a lot of Big Scary Monsters.
Death in the Dark: 1/5. Deal a fat pile of d6s if your target is flat-footed, vulnerable to crits, *and* fails a save. With Ancient Mountain Hammer and Swooping Dragon Strike right next door and much less conditional...
Shadow Blink: 4/5 Why hello there, teleport-and-full-attack.
Ancient Mountain Hammer: 5/5 if you meet the prerequisites.
Colossus Strike: Are you a strength-based swordsage that doesn't believe in tripping? This might be for you. But generally, you want the smaller-and-squishier-than-you types to *stay* in melee with you.
Hamstring Attack: This strike might look good if it were not standing next to Swooping Dragon Strike.
Swooping Dragon Strike: 5/5. If you are Jumpy McJumpsalot, this is a lot of damage, plus "roll a 20 or be stunned". If you are not Jumpy McJumpsalot, um, I guess you could do something else with your life, but this is still pretty decent.

Level 8:
Wyrm’s Flame: 1/5. Ooh, a 30-foot cone of fire that deals less damage than Ring of Fire did four levels ago. Might be worth it as a swift action, but it's a standard.
Diamond Defense: 4/5. Saves are now what keep you alive. Being alive is good.
Diamond Nightmare Blade: 3/5. Quadruple damage is pretty sweet.
Fool’s Strike: 3 or 4/5. Depends on how your DM interprets "Range: Melee attack."
Enervating Shadow Strike: 4/5. Consider having someone around with a casting of Alter Fortune handy.
One With Shadow: 4/5. You can't see me, I'm not here. (Doo-dah, doo-dah.)
Adamantine Bones: 2/5. Hit points have sort of stopped being important.
Earthstrike Quake: 1/5. Prone is a cool effect and all, but this is just not up to par for a level 8 strike.
Strength of Stone: 3/5. This is a good way to save money on a +5 armor mod, but... Stance of Alacrity.
Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip: 3/5. The damage is nice, the flavor is nicer.
Raging Mongoose: 4/5 if you TWF. This probably deals more damage than the cooler-sounding Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip.

Level 9:
Inferno Blast: I forgive you, Desert Wind AoE damage. In the end, you came through for me. I sort of wish you'd done that before half my opponents were fire-immune, though.
Time Stands Still: You are a melee character. You are good at melee attacks. Consider carefully what to do with your swift action in the round you use this, and if your game is going to see play at this level, plan for one or two options. Inferno Blade? Cloak of Deception? Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip? A magic item? If there was ever a time for 1-round melee buff effects, this is it.
Tornado Throw: If you have 5 Setting Sun maneuvers and are eligible for this, it might be so up your alley that you take it before you take Time Stands Still. Otherwise, not an option.
Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike: Be sure to shout the name.
Mountain Tombstone Strike: +2d6 Con damage no save, no prereqs. The latter is considered by some to be a typo.
Feral Death Blow: Save or die. Not dead? Take a cube of d6 of damage. Crit immunity is common at this level (though this problem can be solved with weapon crystals and the like), but the worst is that this is a full-round action which requires you to start next to them.

STANCES

Level 1:
Flame’s Blessing: 2/5. There are a lot of ways to gain fire resistance, and the other stances do things that you can't get as easily. But this starts working instantly, and there's something to be said for having your resistance/immunity inherent to your character rather than from an item or spell.
Stance of Clarity: 1/5. Awesome idea! Don't do it. If you only care about one opponent in a fight, it's because you've effectively already won the fight, or you're fighting a single BBEG so badass that +2 AC isn't going to matter too much. If this scaled with CL - based off ranks in Concentration, maybe? then I'd probably take it, just because the "fighting through concentration" shtick is so cool. As it is, this doesn't change things around like I want a rare-and-precious stance to do.
Child of Shadow: 4/5. 20% miss chance? Given that I get two first-level stances as a Swordsage, I can't imagine ever not taking this.
Island of Blades: 4/5. Being able to flank someone even when they're in a corner is amazing, and if there's another way to get the effect of this stance anywhere in 3.5, I don't know about it. Let's hear it for Shadow Hand stances.
Stonefoot Stance: 2/5. If your DM loves to trip you, ok! If you're Small, 3/5. Otherwise, meh.
Blood in the Water: 1/5. If you're playing the dual-wielding kukri machine, this is for you. But don't play the dual-wielding kukri machine, because every combat round will consist of you rolling a million dice to achieve about the same as anyone else does in way less table time. In terms of damage output, it's a respectable plan, but IMO it's rude to your fellow players.
Hunter’s Sense: 3/5. There are not a lot of simple ways to get scent as a humanoid. On the other hand, you could just buy a horse or something.

Level 3:
Holocaust Cloak: 1/5. At most gaming tables, if you're playing melee, you want to be hit. There might be a Mo9 build which uses this and Defensive Rebuke together, but that's probably not a popular option.
Pearl of Black Doubt: 1/5. Bonus AC only when you don't need it is like bonus AC never.
Giant Killing Style: Are you Small?
Assassin’s Stance: 4/5. Probably the most popular stance prior to Stance of Alacrity. Goes well with Craven and all the other sneak attack stuff. A solid choice, but the main reason it's chosen sooften is that just about all the other L3 stances suck. If this and Giant Killing Style both don't work for you, take another look at the level 1 stances.
Dance of the Spider: 0/5. Don't waste a stance slot on being trumped by a second level spell.
Roots of the Mountain: Know your DM. Can be amazing, can be not so amazing.
Leaping Dragon Stance: 2/5. If you care about jumping a lot, this is great! Always-running saves you the trouble of taking Leap of the Heavens or being a Goliath. And it's phrased as a 10-foot bonus to jumps, rather than a +10 bonus to jump checks, so that's potentially great. But chances are good that you don't care about jumping quite that much.
Wolverine Stance: 1/5. This is a neat idea, but chances are very good you'd rather just not be grappled at all... and the odds that you're fighting with at least 1 1-handed weapon and no light weapons are pretty much zero.

Level 5:
Hearing the Air: 3/5. Blindsense is good, but you probably want to get this with a magic item and not a stance.
Shifting Defense: [number of AoOs you get per round]/5. 'Nuff said.
Step of the Dancing Moth: 2/5. I loved the fight scene in Hero as much as anyone else, and the idea of a character who can do this innately is just awesome. But, really, just get a flight speed already.
Giant’s Stance: 3/5. More damage, no muss, no fuss.

Level 6:
Fiery Assault: 1/5. If you're straight Swordsage, you can't take this until you get stance #5 at level 14, unless you blow your L12 feat on it, which you shouldn't do. After all that, it gives you a tiny damage boost of the worst damage type. Boooooo.

Level 7:
Prey on the Weak: 0/5. See comments on the "cost" of Fiery Assault, increase that cost, and then think about how useful Cleave and/or Whirlwind Attack usually is at ECL 13+, then think about how many AoOs you can actually take in a round.

Take two levels of not-Swordsage (Monk 2's a favorite), or 1 level of any full-IL PRC before taking Swordsage 14. Then you can use the stance you get then to pick up a sweet 8th-level stance.

Level 8:
Rising Phoenix: 3/5. Rocket boots!
Stance of Alacrity: 5/5. You have a minimum of 19 maneuvers known, 9 readied. Of those 9, many of them will be counters, and some of them will be boosts. A Swordsage has more uses for their swift slot than any other class does out of the box, except possibly Wizard. More actions, please. If you have Adaptive Style, this is 6/5. If you don't have Adaptive Style... I am really curious about your build.
Ghostly Defense: 3/5. You know the ninja who defeats an army without ever striking? Want to be that ninja? Here you go.
Balance on the Sky: 1/5. Get a friend to cast a spell, or buy a magic item. You have cash and your friends have spell slots. If for some reason those things are not true and this is your only way to get flight... you pretty well need it.
Wolf Pack Tactics: 3/5. Ask your DM how this interacts with Whirlwind Attack type stuff, then consider getting a +1 Whirling weapon and killing entire platoons when you full attack. Then take Stance of Alacrity instead.

Feats:
Adaptive Style: This is a feat tax. Until you have it, ask yourself carefully with every feat you get, "is this really better than Adaptive Style?" You can live without it, and if you really enjoy the Wizard-esque "I plan carefully for every encounter" style of play, it's not the end of the world. But think carefully.
Improved Trip: Swordsages make good trippers, especially with a Setting Sun focus. Ask your DM if the free attack on successful trip turns Mighty Throw into Mighty Drop-Kick. Since Int is mostly a dumpable stat and Swordsages are feat-hungry, you probably want to be a tripper by starting with Monk 2 (Passive Way variant) and not burning 2 feats and Int 13. You also probably want to be a Jotunbrud human, or a Goliath. You could also be a Half-Minotaur Half-Ogre, but I recommend options that still leave room for self-respect.
Shadow Blade [ToB]: Dex SAD. Whisper Gnome and Strongheart Halfling swordsages who spend their whole life in SH stances take this and Weapon Finesse and probably load up on TWF and Tiger Claw.
Gloom Razor [ToB]: If you're all-in on Shadow Hand, you want a way to flat-foot your opponents as often as possible. Gloom Razor provides that in two different ways.
Snap Kick [ToB]: A worthy choice for any AoO-heavy build which has a feat to spare.

You have Weapon Focus anyway, so:
Sense Weakness [Draconomicon]: If you do get Combat Expertise, this is super in-genre for wuxia types.
Sanctify Martial Strike [BoED]: If for some reason you are a Swordsage with 15 Charisma, I assume you are building your character around this and things like it.

A word on Cleave:
If you squint while turned sideways and holding your nose, there is an argument that Cleave attacks triggered from strikes should give you the effect of the strike again and not just a free vanilla attack. This is probably the wrong call for your DM to make, but if you insist on playing a melee character at a table where everyone else is playing Contingent Celerity Cloistered Cleric Venerable Dragonwrought Jungle Kobolds, it might not be so bad.

Magic Items:
You're going to want to check out Lists of Necessary Magic Items: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items and Bunko's Bargain Basement: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=350.0

+1 discipline[ToB] (Shadow Hand) Weapon: Most Swordsages will spend most of their combat rounds in a Shadow Hand stance, until they get Stance of Alacrity. Would you like +3 on all attacks? If you know you'll be in a different stance (because your campaign takes place in the demiplane of difficult terrain, or the Pyromaniac Freehold, or in the Land of Giants), get a different Discipline on your weapon.
For crit fishers:
+1 keen discipline (Tiger Claw) kukri (2): Take these, go into "Blood in the Water" stance. Say, "Look ma, no hands!" and then do your impression of a chainsaw on legs. Works best in long fights.
+1 keen discipline (Shadow Hand) aptitude[ToB] kukri (2): Probably the better critfisher option for the discriminating Swordsage, though the price of two +4 kukris means you can't take this until ECL12 or so. Take Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade for Dex SAD, then put "Aptitude" on your weapons so they qualify for Shadow Blade. You don't get the escalating bonus from Blood in the Water, but you do get Dex to damage from attack 1, which is probably better. Since you have Weapon Focus(kukri) from Swordsage 1, you get an untyped +1 hit/damage.
Bracers of the Hunter [SoX]: Hide, init, sneak attack, 8500.
Mantle of the Predator: Hide, Move Silently, 1d6 sudden strike, 8000.
Blindfold of True Darkness: Blind kung-fu master! Reasonably useful and very cool, 9000.
Headband of Conscious Effort: 1/day, get the Mind Over Body effect even when you don't have the maneuver readied, for the low price of 2000. Ask your DM if you can go slotless and/or get more uses per day for more gp.
Heartseeker Amulet: Spend a swift to turn your next melee into a melee touch. Made for ToB types. 3000. Ask your DM if you can go slotless and/or get more uses per day for more gp.
Vampire Torc: If you want in-combat healing, this is more useful for you than for non-ToB characters. 5000.
Fanged Ring [DrM]: A must-have for any unarmed-focus PC who can afford the 10k.
Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis [ToM]: 11k for the Dark template is cheap, though you have to pay 22 if you want it on always instead of 10m/day. A should-buy for stealth-focused Swordsages.

Tooth of Dahlver-Nar (Leraje) [ToM]: Casts Greater Magic Weapon, 1/day, at CL 20. Slotless and a bargain at 21600, but not without drawbacks - consult the book.

For trippers:
Armbands of Might: Constant +2 to tripping, 4100.
Third Eye Surge: +2/3/4 to tripping 3/2/1 times per day, 2100.
Torc of Titans: +5 to tripping or damage 3/day, 5000.
Ring of the Darkhidden: Invisibility to darkvision can be super handy, if you're the sneaky-sneaky type.
Belt of Battle: Listed because you actually might not want one. For people who want to turn swift actions into moves or standards, this is a great item. But you have enough maneuvers readied to be using a boost and strike every turn, and getting an extra full attack is great as a swift, but you'd really rather boost first. You don't have much better to do with your belt slot (unless you're unarmed), but you might actually have better things to do with the 12k.