Trying to get into Star Trek

[blackspeeker]

So recently I found that pretty much every star trek is on netflix, and I had never really watched any of them when they aired the original was before my time, as were the first few years of TNG, and I remember when I was around 11 watching voyager and liking it.

Anyway, I figured I wouldn't like the original because I've heard it was episodic as opposed to having long story arcs and I prefer arcs in my TV. So I went straight into TNG and after the first episode I found myself really disappointed. So first is there a point when I get what I want out of TNG like arcs and the borg (I think what I really want is the borg), should I just do DS9 because I have heard they do more arcs, or am I too picky.

I'm probably too picky...

[Devonix]

Yes you are picky but also season one and most of season two TNG just aren't very good. Late season two and onward are when the show starts getting good. BAsically once Roddenberry stopped having direct control over the franchise.

[Gamer Girl]

If you want arcs, then you want DS9 and Enterprise. The rest of Star Trek are just episodes. With like TNG they do have a couple vague story arcs, but they are spread over half a dozen shoes spread over the seven seasons.

You could just watch the Borg ones, I think there is even a TNG ''Borg Collective Collection''.

[turkishproverb]

DS9 is best for Arcs, but loses something of the "spirit" the older shows had. There were some arcs, if only in the background in TNG, though. The trick there is knowing what to watch.

[Joran]

Echoing what other people said, Star Trek is particularly well-known for being episodic in nature. Although there are some recurring charcters (you've met Q), some callbacks to previous episodes/events, and some back to back cliffhanger episodes, most episodes can be watched without knowing what happened previously. DS9 broke the mold, with some 6-8 episode arcs, but most of the shows are still episodic in nature.

For the Borg, from TNG

Q Who - S2E16
Best of Both Worlds - S3E26 and S4E1
I, Borg - S5E23
Descent - S6E26 and S7E1
Star Trek: First Contact

If you're looking to cherry pick the best episodes, I'd recommend:
The Inner Light - S5E25
Darmok - S5E2
The Measure of a Man - S2E9

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Watch DS9. It is better in every way compared to the other series.

Also TNG 3rd season onward (especially the Borg episodes), and a number of TOS are still very good.

Voyager and Enterprise are putrid. Skip entirely. If you have to see Enterprise, skip the first three seasons, and then stop before the finale.

[blackspeeker]

Alright I wont give up on TNG, I may have to jump ahead to when Roddenberry left if that is about where the quality steps up. I just want some good sci fi, and I've never given Star Trek the time of day.

[0Megabyte]

Okay... let's start with TNG.

Yes, you won't find arcs, per se. In those days, shows were all about syndication, where one can throw any random episode up at any time. So the common method was to have completely self-contained episodes, for the sake of said syndication.

Star Trek, especially in its later years, strained against that. DS9 had to sneak their main series protagonists' introduction into a filler episode to keep it under the radar. Voyager intended the "Year of Hell" story arc to be a season long... but it got cut to a two-parter due to that same difficulty. People wanted to push the boundaries, but in many cases the higher-ups just wouldn't let them, because television was different in the early nineties.

You can't fault them for their historical placement, anymore than you can't fault silent films for their lack of impressive CGI... since again, they weren't at a point in history where computers even existed yet.

But I digress. For TNG, there are some truly excellent episodes. Here's the short list of the best of the best, the stuff you ABSOLUTELY want to see:

Episode 125: Conspiracy - The goriest episode of Star Trek, and one of the creepiest. See for yourself!

Episode 203: Elementary, My Dear Data - this is a fun holodeck episode. Yes, that's usually a contradiction in terms, but bear with me. It's amusing and enjoyable to see Data get Sherlock Holmes wrong, and the friendship between Data and Geordie is great. Fun and silly.

Episode 208: A Matter of Honor - A Klingon ship and the Enterprise begin a crew exchange program, and Riker is assigned to the Klingon ship. Hilarity ensues. In a good way. It's an action-packed, exciting episode. Top 20.

Episode 209: The Measure of a Man - this episode is excellent and well written, perhaps one of the very first well-written TNG episodes. It's about Data and whether he has rights, or is just a machine. Excellent as actual science fiction. Top eleven.

Episode 215: Pen Pals - An ethical dilemma based on the high-falutin so-called morals of the Prime Directive gets a healthy dose of personification in the form of a little girl Data talks to. It's alright, if you can stand the Prime Directive crap.

Episode 216: Q Who - This is it, the very first Borg story. It's well written, well acted, and all around excellent, introducing a truly frightening opponent. Top 20.

Episode 305: The Bonding - Ronald D. Moore's first script on the show. It's about a boy who's mother was a redshirt and, well, did what all redshirts do in Star Trek. Only this redshirt had a family. And now the crew must deal with the emotional trauma. Plus a hackneyed alien messing with them, as usual. It's very good, even in its diluted state.

Episode 313: Deja Q - So, Q loses his powers, and is exiled aboard the Enterprise. Excellently acted, and well-written. John de Lancie steals the show. Top 20.

Episode 314: A Matter of Perspective - Riker is charged with murder. The holodeck is used for forensic recreations of crime scenes. It's actually good.

Episode 315: Yesterday's Enterprise - When the Enterprise encounters a temporal rift, all of reality is changed... and the Federation is now at war with the Klingons. Retroactively makes Tasha Yar's stupidly done death, and Denise Crosby's departure from the show, worth it. Contender for best episode in the series, or at least in the top five.

Episode 316: The Offspring - Data creates himself a daughter. Becomes a tear jerker, somehow, and convinces me that Data DOES have emotions... even if he doesn't express them or experience them the same way humans do.

Episode 317: Sins of the Father - An episode focusing on Worf and Klingon politics! It eventually gets old, but not in this episode. The beginning of one of the only story arcs in TNG.

Episode 321: Hollow Pursuits - Introduces Reginald Barclay, one of the best characters of the show. A rare comedy episode that works, and focuses, basically, on video game addiction, albeit through holodecks. Great stuff.

Episode 326: The Best of Both Worlds, Part 1 - Contender for best episode in the series, or at least in the top five. The Borg have finally come. End of line.

Episode 401: The Best of Both Worlds, Part 2 - If you don't want to watch this after seeing part one, then there's no hope for you. Top eleven.

Episode 402: Family - Not a regular episode, it deals with the aftermath of the two-parter, and gives Picard some greatly needed extra characterization.

Episode 405: Remember Me - A "puzzle" episode. Something strange is going on, as Doctor Crusher is the only one to remember various people... who soon disappear, never to have existed. Including main cast members. I won't be recommending a lot of these puzzle episodes... but this is a good one.

Episode 412: The Wounded - Introduces the Cardassians, their previous war with the Federation, and a big retcon. Regardless, it gives O'Brien a lot of screentime, and deals with a rogue admiral with PTSD from that war threatening to break a treaty the Federation REALLY doesn't want to have broken... Top 20.

Episode 413: Devil's Due - This isn't so much a great episode as a good piece of actual science fiction. The Enterprise comes to a planet whose god has returned to them... but is all as it seems?

Episode 414: Clues - Another "puzzle" episode, but a good one. The Enterprise crew soon realizes that they've lost an entire day... except for Data. Who refuses to admit it happened. This one's pretty fun, too.

Episode 415: First Contact - Not the eighth film in the franchise. Riker is on a planet observing the populace, who are just about to invent warp drive. He gets caught. A great examination of the human condition, by way of aliens, and the ways humans would react to encountering aliens the same way. This one, again, is actual science fiction worthy of the name. Top eleven, easily.

Episode 421: The Drumhead - Suspicions of terrorism leads to a show trial, and Picard must make the best speech of his career. Very relevant social commentary, scarily accurate in regards to post 9/11 fears. Top eleven.

Episode 425: In Theory - Data gets a girlfriend. Another comedic episode that works, and has (ironically) a very human feel to it. Top 20.

Episodes 426 and 501: Redemption 1 & 2 - Worf's story arc continues, as he gets embroiled in the Klingon Civil War! Top 20.

Episode 502: Darmok - Excellent piece of science fiction, about the difficulties of communicating with a truly alien being, and the joy that comes from learning to understand one another. A contender for best episode of the series, or at least one of the top five.

Episode 503: Ensign Ro - Continues the Cardassian metaplot, introducing the Bajorans and an interesting new minor character. (Hint: she's in the title.)

Episodes 507-8: Unification I and II - Leonard Nimoy and Denise Crosby guest star. Spock, Romulans and the Yesterday's Enterprise/Klingon Civil War metaplot collide!

Episode 509: A Matter of Time - A time traveler from the 26th century comes to observe the crew of the Enterprise as they try to stop a calamity from happening. He won't tell them whether they succeed or not... this is one of the only good time travel episodes in Star Trek history, and decent science fiction as well, dealing with actual themes and such.

Episode 516: Ethics - After a terrible accident, Worf becomes paralyzed from the waist down. He decides he wants to commit suicide... while an unscrupulous doctor wants to perform untested experimental surgery on him. Like the Drumhead, this is an excellent social issues episode, arguing well for all sides.

Episode 517: The Outcast - By modern standards incredibly problematic, not to mention cowardly as heck, but the episode tries to deal with another serious ethical topic: The treatment of homosexuals. Without ever referring to homosexuality once. I actually find the episode reprehensible in its cowardice, but darn it, it was 1992...

Episode 518: Cause and Effect - The third of four "puzzle" episodes I'm going to recommend. This time, the crew of the Enterprise is caught in a time loop, that inevitable ends in the Enterprise's destruction. Can they ever escape? Or will this retroactively be Endless Eight all over again?

Episode 519: The First Duty - Wesley Crusher gets what's coming to him. A court marshal. Finally! Enough said. (Also, the character of Tom Paris, important to Star Trek: Voyager, is introd- wait, what? That's just a character with the exact same backstory, played by the same actor, and NOT Tom Paris? Oh, because it would have meant paying the writer of this episode royalties for every episode of Voyager? Huh. Well, anyway, it's the same person, whatever.)

Episode 523: I, Borg - The Enterprise discovers a single Borg drone, stranded. They begin, uh, talking to him. Very good episode, really.

Episode 525: The Inner Light - Picard is struck by a mind-affecting probe, and wakes up in a world where he's known as someone else. I don't want to spoil it for you, but this, too, is excellent science fiction. It even won an Emmy. A contender for best episode in the series, or at least one of the top five.

Episodes 526 & 601: Time's Arrow 1 & 2 - 19th century period piece, as Data tries to get back to the 24th century. Kinda silly though, I mean, he is an android. Maybe he could go back the long way...

Episode 602: Realm of Fear - Barclay returns in his third, and second best, episode. This time, Starfleet's Most Neurotic Officer must come to terms with his transporter phobia... the hard way.

Episodes 610 & 611: Chain of Command 1 & 2 - Are you noticing a trend here? The two-parters are actually pretty good, up until now, and we're getting them even outside of season finales. This one is excellent, as it continues the Cardassian metaplot, and Picard gets captured, and a new, hard-line captain takes the helm of the Enterprise. Chain of Command 2 is a top eleven episode.

Episode 615: Tapestry - Captain Picard dies on the operating table. Q sends him back to relive his Academy days. Q stops being a trickster, and finally lives up to his promise to be something... profound. Top eleven episode.

Episode 624: Second Chances - Re-examining a site where Riker almost got trapped eight years before, the Enterprise discovers... another Riker, stranded all this time? An excellent character piece on how differing circumstances changes a man. I'm tempted to put this in the top eleven, but... well, definitely top 20.

Episode 625: Timescape - The fourth and final "mystery" episode that I'll recommend. After going to a conference on planet Whatever, Picard, Geordie, and Troy discover the Enterprise frozen in time... and apparently being attacked by a Romulan War-Bird!

Episode 711: Parallels - Worf returns to the Enterprise after winning a tournament, only to find that reality keeps shifting, in small but slowly growing ways... great character piece for Worf, and has one of the most chilling moments in all of Star Trek, when you see what would have happened had the Borg won. It's in the top 20.

Episode 712: Pegasus - Riker is faced with his past when his first captain -now an admiral- comes on board the Enterprise on a secret mission... one that may fray the relationship between Picard and Riker.

Episode 715: Lower Decks - This episode focuses on a group of lower-rank officers. For once, we get to see how the stars of the show are seen by the people under their command. Stars a character from The First Duty, and continues the Cardassian metaplot. Top 20.

Episode 716: Thine Own Self - While venturing amongst a primitive race, Data is damaged, losing his memory. And the understanding that the metal material he's carrying with him is radioactive.

Episode 724: Preemptive Strike - Ensign Ro finds herself conflicted between Starfleet and the Maquis, in this continuation of the Cardassian metaplot.

Episode 725-726: All Good Things... - The finale of Star Trek: The Next Generation spans from the beginning of time to Picard's own future, as we discover that the Trial Q started in the series premiere continues to this day, and Picard must save all of time and space. A contender for best episode of the series, or at least in the top five.

---

Now I know what you're asking yourself: "Why top 11?" Because, like the Nostalgia Critic was wont to say, I go one step beyond.

To finish up, I'll also list my absolute favorite episodes, in order:

The Top Five: Any of these could be the best episode, and all far exceed expectations. They are the heights that this franchise can accomplish. They are Star Trek at its absolute best.

1.) The Best of Both Worlds part 1

2.) Yesterday's Enterprise

3.) The Inner Light

4.) Darmok

5.) All Good Things...

The Top Eleven: To round up the rest of these, you've got some excellent character pieces and works of science fiction in general. Any show would be lucky to have them.

6.) Tapesty (Was only edged out by All Good Things... because it's the series finale. Otherwise this episode is easily it's equal)

7.) The Measure of a Man

8.) Chain of Command 1 & 2

9.) The Best of Both Worlds part 2 (Unlike other two-parters, I count this one separately. Still excellent, but it has to compare to the first half...)

10.) First Contact

11.) The Drumhead

The Top Twenty: Not quite as excellent as the very best... but some of them are contenders. I can see other people placing many of them in their own personal top ten lists. Don't put their number to heart, they're all about equal to me.

12.) In Theory (I love this episode, personally. It was a contender for 11.)

13.) The Lower Decks

14.) Parallels

15.) Redemption

16.) Q Who

17.) Deja Q

18.) Second Chances

19.) A Matter of Honor

20.) The Wounded.



Edit: Notice that only one of the episodes I consider even above average are from the first season. There's a very good reason for this.

Edit 2: Bonus Round! 0Megabyte's Top Five Most Hated TNG Episodes!

In descending order of badness:

Episode 102: The Naked Now - The crew of the Enterprise is infected with a virus that makes them act out of character in "silly" ways. This is the second episode of the series, before we've really had time to establish said characters. It's also a total retread of an Original Series script. Pain. Just pain.

Episode 201: The Child - Pretty horrid, when you think about it. Troy is impregnated against her will, and it's treated with all the sensitivity of a pie in the face.

Episode 714: Sub Rosa - Sorry, Jonathan Frakes. I like you well enough as a director, but this was probably the third most boring hour of television I've ever encountered. Dr. Crusher hangs out on a planet modeled on Scotland. And gets seduced by a ghost who's haunted her family for genera- zzz...

-Oh! Sorry, I fell asleep there.

Episode 122: Skin of Evil - Killed off Tasha Yar, because Denise Crosby didn't believe in the series. Considering how terrible the first season was, who can blame her.

Yes, Yesterday's Enterprise and the future episodes following the metaplot DO redeem the fact that Tasha Yar died... and if Denise Crosby had stayed on, one of the very best episodes of TNG could not have existed. And at the same time, had she stayed on, Michael Dorn as Worf may not have been able to develop the way he did.

And yet... Crosby showed later that she could be a very good actress, and having her around when the show was good, when great stories could be made about her... it's sad to think about what might have been.

Episode 104: Code of Honor - This episode is part of the reason Denise Crosby could think of leaving this series. It's incredibly offensive, for reasons that enter real-world territory.

Edit 3: C-c-c-combo Breaker! 0Megabyte's Top Five Most Hated TNG Episodes 2: Dishonorable Mentions!

In no particular order:

Episode 222: Shades of Gray - This isn't actually an episode of TNG. This is a clip show made up of other episodes of TNG. Even the bad ones are better than this. It would be in the top five... but alas, it doesn't count as an episode. Heck of a season finale, I'll say...

Episode 719: Genesis - All I have to say is this:

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/207/592/morbo-evolution.jpg

Good night!

Episode 217: Samaritan Snare - Possibly the most annoying race in Star Trek history is introduced here. Later on, Lore, Data's brother, is found by this race, and reappears years later wearing their clothes.

For the record, Lore is a mass-murdering creep with daddy issues.

And yet I can't help but feel a little sorry for him... he did have to spend years with the Pakleds. Isn't that punishment enough for any crime?

Episode 212: The Royale - Incredibly boring. the crew finds a thingie in space that does a thingie and some of them get trapped in the thingie and I dunno, stuff happens I guess? I can't seem to pay any attention to it. It's like a run-of-the-mill Voyager episode, but sillier, somehow.

Episode 218: Up the Long Ladder - Wow, incredibly annoying and offensive Irish stereotypes, and blatantly cruel actions by Captain Picard, that go against the spirit of the only good parts of the Prime Directive. (You know, the part about not using your greater power to take advantage of less powerful cultures, or interfere with them for your own gain... yeah, that part can be trod all over. But in other episodes, heaven forbid you try to give a vaccine to a civilization facing extinction if you don't. That would be wrong. *snerk* )

[comicshorse]

What 'Angel One' doesn't make the worst list ! It was terrible and yes another Season One episode unsurprisingly

[Water_Bear]

If you like arcs and don't like self-contained episodes, then Star Trek will not appeal to you. The whole point of it was to be a "planet of the week" show, and as the series went on there was less episode-to-episode continuity. The Original Series, The Next Generation, Voyager and Enterprise all followed this formula.

Deep Space Nine, while a good show, was easily the least popular of the series for a reason; it ditched a lot of the Trek formula and tone in favor of new experimental ideas, and while they mostly worked out it still didn't feel like Trek to most fans. If you like DS9 but not TOS, I would suggest watching Babylon 5 instead; DS9 was inspired by/plagiarized from B5's Story Bible, and the tone of the two shows is similar.

[blackspeeker]

Big list

Thats quite an amazing list, I have been enjoying the episodes you've listed.

[Dr.Epic]

I'd just start with the original. Sure, they're flawed, but they're campy and fun and they do convey some good themes and messages. I mean, I'm entertained by the original series as unlogical as it sounds. But then again, I'm a doctor, not a critic.

[The Glyphstone]

I like any episode with Q, though he didn't get a lot of screen time. Yes, even Q-pid.

[Caesar]

That was an awesome list and I copy pasted it into my notes for picking out good old episodes on boring nights. Thanks!

Id have to agree with it for the most part as well, and while TNG is more or less episodic, the character development is not, and either way it is light years beyond ANY of its successors if you ask me. DS9 was ok if you could get past every single episode almost being stuck on a space station, but it all went downhill so fast after that..

In conclusion, I offer this final argument: Jean Luc Picard

[0Megabyte]

What 'Angel One' doesn't make the worst list ! It was terrible and yes another Season One episode unsurprisingly

There's a reason for that: I haven't seen it since I was six years old or so! :smallbiggrin:

And from hearing the sound of it, I don't plan on it.

[Traab]

That was an awesome list and I copy pasted it into my notes for picking out good old episodes on boring nights. Thanks!

Id have to agree with it for the most part as well, and while TNG is more or less episodic, the character development is not, and either way it is light years beyond ANY of its successors if you ask me. DS9 was ok if you could get past every single episode almost being stuck on a space station, but it all went downhill so fast after that..

In conclusion, I offer this final argument: Jean Luc Picard

I wonder, picard versus sisko in a debate. Picard has the diplomacy, the smooth talk, the right emotion when it is needed, sisko has fire and passion and the kind of spirit you just want to believe in. Who would win? Honestly, I am not sure, picard is the statesman, the noble. He has this air of certainty about him, that he knows the right thing and will lead you to it. But sisko can inspire you with his enthusiasm, he stands tall and strong, ready to fight for what he feels is right, (seriously, his speeches have given me goosebumps from the delivery) he is the warrior, the man who could set fire to an army of klingons with a speech if he wanted.

[The Glyphstone]

Avery Brooks doesn't have a knighthood.:smallsmile:

[kpenguin]

Avery Brooks doesn't have a knighthood.:smallsmile:

argumentum ad verecundiam :smalltongue:

[Ravens_cry]

I don't like Avery Brook's impassioned speeches as much as I enjoy Sir Patrick's.
He sounds very choppy, almost Kirk-esque, and not in a good way.
When he is brooding however, "In the Pale Moonlight" for example, oh, then, then he has a wonderful voice and tone.
But Picard is my first love, and I personally think he has a better range.

[The Glyphstone]

argumentum ad verecundiam :smalltongue:

No, argumentum ad awesomium.:smallwink: Sir Patrick Stewart does not have any additional authority, he's just cooler, and by extension that makes his character cooler.

Okay, so technically an inverse ad hominem?

[JoshL]

I also adore DS9, but can't get into TOS or TNG. I've tried. I've WANTED to. There are things I like about them, but I just don't like them.

But DS9? Hits all the right buttons for me. Great stuff!

[Traab]

I don't like Avery Brook's impassioned speeches as much as I enjoy Sir Patrick's.
He sounds very choppy, almost Kirk-esque, and not in a good way.
When he is brooding however, "In the Pale Moonlight" for example, oh, then, then he has a wonderful voice and tone.
But Picard is my first love, and I personally think he has a better range.

I agree, his speeches are a bit choppy, but he speaks them with such passion that its easy to get swept up by them. And oh hell yes, his dark brooding monologues... goosebumps. There is just a quality to his voice, I have a hard time putting it into words, but there just feels like there is a power to them that eclipses picard. Its almost like youth and power versus age and experience.

When SIR jean luc speaks, you can feel the weight of experience and knowledge behind it. When he unleashes his emotions, you can feel his passion for the subject, and its compelling, when sisko speaks its always with passion fire and conviction. He is bold, emotionally engaged in the subject, you can feel his sincerity and the strength of his convictions. Youth and fire versus age and wisdom. Spock would likely side with picard 9 times out of 10, sisko could convince the entire klingon race to go to war. Hell, he would likely punch out any klingon who dared disagree and THEN verbally set fire to the rest. Dude decked Q, he doesnt hold back or put up with BS.

[Ravens_cry]

Picard was no sissy when it came to Klingons (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJuHgBFZOSU) either.
As for speeches, well, besides the ones he forms one half of a trope for, he can say just as much quietly (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjJN08uqt70) as Sisko could loudly.

[Kitten Champion]

Sisko is, I think, somewhat at a disadvantage. His arguments in DS9 frequently dealt with issues in such a way as to leave them unresolved or open-ended, so that the viewer is left to consider their own position. He also has to deal with the consequences of what he says. Sisko can't just get on his high horse, decry people for their wicked ways, and fly off into the sunset. It's a lot harder to say what you want when you're genuinely in a position of interstellar diplomatic, religious, and political significance.

Now, on pure style points, Picard trumps Sisko. Sisko gets better and more assertive as the series goes on, both due to character development and Brooks getting more comfortable in his role. Whereas Picard is firmly Picard throughout the series.

But... by the beginning of the Dominion War, I'd say it's a draw. Picard has the eloquence and conviction in his positions, while Sisko has the empathy and insight into people's motivations.

[Cikomyr]

If you like arcs and don't like self-contained episodes, then Star Trek will not appeal to you. The whole point of it was to be a "planet of the week" show, and as the series went on there was less episode-to-episode continuity. The Original Series, The Next Generation, Voyager and Enterprise all followed this formula.

Deep Space Nine, while a good show, was easily the least popular of the series for a reason; it ditched a lot of the Trek formula and tone in favor of new experimental ideas, and while they mostly worked out it still didn't feel like Trek to most fans. If you like DS9 but not TOS, I would suggest watching Babylon 5 instead; DS9 was inspired by/plagiarized from B5's Story Bible, and the tone of the two shows is similar.

I don't mind if you didn't like the show. But don't go and say stupid things like "DS9 is the least popular of the series", you just look ridiculous.

[Traab]

Sisko is, I think, somewhat at a disadvantage. His arguments in DS9 frequently dealt with issues in such a way as to leave them unresolved or open-ended, so that the viewer is left to consider their own position. He also has to deal with the consequences of what he says. Sisko can't just get on his high horse, decry people for their wicked ways, and fly off into the sunset. It's a lot harder to say what you want when you're genuinely in a position of interstellar diplomatic, religious, and political significance.

Now, on pure style points, Picard trumps Sisko. Sisko gets better and more assertive as the series goes on, both due to character development and Brooks getting more comfortable in his role. Whereas Picard is firmly Picard throughout the series.

But... by the beginning of the Dominion War, I'd say it's a draw. Picard has the eloquence and conviction in his positions, while Sisko has the empathy and insight into people's motivations.

Honestly, that was one of the things that bugged me about tng. The characters remained static. There was very little actual character growth. The closest we got was cast changes. Like tasha yar, wesley, and doc crusher. Picard in season 1 was almost the same as picard in season, I dunno, 7. You had a brief arc about locutis and him dealing with the after effects, but then nothing. In ds9 or even voyager, there was character development, some way to differentiate between the seasons.

[Ravens_cry]

Having mostly unchanging characters fit its episodic nature. It also, in my view, makes TNG a lot easier to dive into. Even if it's not completely your cup of tea, (Early Grey, Hot!) another reason to watch it is because it helps one appreciate what DS9 was subverting as well.
I really like DS9, the love story between Odo and Nerys is one of my favourite in fiction total, but Picard is still my captain.

[Traab]

Having mostly unchanging characters fit its episodic nature. It also, in my view, makes TNG a lot easier to dive into. Even if it's not completely your cup of tea, (Early Grey, Hot!) another reason to watch it is because it helps one appreciate what DS9 was subverting as well.
I really like DS9, the love story between Odo and Nerys is one of my favourite in fiction total, but Picard is still my captain.

Oh I know it fits the episodic nature and such, its just, the cast doesnt really change at all no matter what happens. Aside from death and reassignments, the cast stays almost identical, (oh wait, riker and his facial hair) and nothing has any lasting effect on the crew, so yes, you can jump in at any point and follow along, but you also are dealing with an identical setup for years on end.

[Joran]

Honestly, that was one of the things that bugged me about tng. The characters remained static. There was very little actual character growth. The closest we got was cast changes. Like tasha yar, wesley, and doc crusher. Picard in season 1 was almost the same as picard in season, I dunno, 7. You had a brief arc about locutis and him dealing with the after effects, but then nothing. In ds9 or even voyager, there was character development, some way to differentiate between the seasons.

I'd disagree that Picard Season 1 is the same as Picard Season 7. Picard Season 1 was uncomfortable with his crew and held himself at a remove. Through all 7 seasons, Picard got closer and more familiar with his crew. I doubt Picard Season 1 would have went to play poker with his subordinates like he did in Season 7.

Riker changed a bit too, not just in the facial hair department. At the beginning, he was kind of Kirk, hard charging, ambitious. He mellowed out a bit to the point that they were contrasting his character with Shelby's in Best of Both Worlds.

Wesley Crusher changed a lot too; he suddenly grew a beard, embraced his geekdom and is generally an awesome guy now... wait, that's Wil Wheaton...

P.S. I think that was one of the best parts of All Good Things is where they went back to the beginning and Picard didn't have the trust of his crew anywhere near what he had in the future, just to show how much had changed in 7 years.

[mjames]

Nerdist has a new podcast called Mission Log. http://www.nerdist.com/podcast/mission-log-a-roddenberry-star-trek-podcast/

They are going through every episode of Star Trek, starting at the beginning. It's an interesting way of keeping up. An episode a week so you don't burn out and you can bribe yourself by waiting to listen to it until after to you watch the episode. :-)

[Ravens_cry]

Oh I know it fits the episodic nature and such, its just, the cast doesnt really change at all no matter what happens. Aside from death and reassignments, the cast stays almost identical, (oh wait, riker and his facial hair) and nothing has any lasting effect on the crew, so yes, you can jump in at any point and follow along, but you also are dealing with an identical setup for years on end.
That's not a bad thing necessarily, and there is changes, however subtle. Been assimilated temporarily had a lasting impact on Picard's character, for example.
Worf found out there was much more than just his fairy tale version of Klingon culture,as well as what it meant to be a father, though the former was explored more in DS9.
Besides growing the beard, Riker also grew from being a Kirk wannabe to a much more mature, centered, individual.

[Gnoman]

If you like the concept of Star Trek, but dislike the episodic nature, you might want to try the Starfleet Corps of Engineers or New Frontier series. The former is a series of novellas (each of which is similar in content and concept to a ST episode) featuring a dedicated engineering ship running around dealing with crises after the Dominion War, while the latter is a novel series featuring an entirely new captain and crew. Both feature a number of underlying storylines, and the fact that there are very few characters from the shows make them ideal for someone less familiar with the universe.

[Traab]

Ok, you guys were right, I had honestly forgotten about picard and his serious levels of hesitancy when dealing with the kids especially on his ship. Early on he was different. As far as worf goes, the thing is, all those lessons he learned? They really only apply in specific episodes. Thats really the case with a lot of the big character stories, like locutis, worf and his klingon encounters, riker and his beard, they are these big life changing events, but after the episode is over, its almost like they never happened.

Take picard and the episode where he lived an entire life in his head of someone else. The Inner Light I think it was? At the end of the episode, he picks up a flute and starts playing it, a habit his other life had. It shows there are marks left on him from the experience, not visible, but there. But then its never mentioned again. As far as I know, nothing to do with it is ever brought up afterwards. I dunno, maybe we see the flute on a display in his office or something.

[Hands_Of_Blue]

The flute actually does show up again in the sixth season in the episode that Picard tries to have a relationship with one of the science officers.

[Cikomyr]

The flute actually does show up again in the sixth season in the episode that Picard tries to have a relationship with one of the science officers.

1-episode continuity... woopie-doodad.

I mean, it's great they acknowledged it, but if this was BSG, they'd spend at least 5 episodes with the Capitain in rehab trying to cope with the life he never had, remember the real one.

That can be a powerful trauma, to have live, love and had children. And then realizing it wasn't even your life.

[turkishproverb]

1-episode continuity... woopie-doodad.

I mean, it's great they acknowledged it, but if this was BSG, they'd spend at least 5 episodes with the Capitain in rehab trying to cope with the life he never had, remember the real one.

That can be a powerful trauma, to have live, love and had children. And then realizing it wasn't even your life.

1. Yea, but mental health care in the federation is implied to be better than in the colonies.

2. So then, it's more like Pickard's "Assimilated" arc, which was back referenced frequently and took a lot for him to truly "get over" if you agree he ever did (some debate).

[Cikomyr]

1. Yea, but mental health care in the federation is implied to be better than in the colonies.

2. So then, it's more like Pickard's "Assimilated" arc, which was back referenced frequently and took a lot for him to truly "get over" if you agree he ever did (some debate).

Good point. Picard's character arc regarding his assimilation and dealing with it was better done, but again rather underplayed. I cannot believe only SISKO grudges him for heading the borg's invasion fleet an nearly annihilating earth.

... damn it, now you make me wanna merge these two elements together. Imagine if the Borg learned of Picard's experience with the Probe, and wants to assimilate him so they can forever preserve the knowledge about that Lost Civilization. They'd think that this knowledge is important (any civilization are important, in their own way), and they believe said knowledge will lost with Picard.

So they hunt him down specifically, for he is the only remnant of this civilization. Hell, Picard could actually be tempted between preserving the knowledge of his lost world forever, or losing his individuality..

And then, you'd have Data show up and give HIM a Patrick Stewart speech:


It is not enough to know the facts, sir. I am not merely the summation of the things I know, but the summation of the things I lived. The people of Kataan did not gave you a technical analysis of their civilization; they gave you a life to live and remember. It is how they chose to be passed down unto history, and I doubt the Borg will do them justice.

Edit: Altough you could argue that "The unrelenting force pursuing the protagonist to steal information that has been implanted into his brain" is a repeat of Farscape's Season 2 plot.

[Traab]

Good point. Picard's character arc regarding his assimilation and dealing with it was better done, but again rather underplayed. I cannot believe only SISKO grudges him for heading the borg's invasion fleet an nearly annihilating earth.

... damn it, now you make me wanna merge these two elements together. Imagine if the Borg learned of Picard's experience with the Probe, and wants to assimilate him so they can forever preserve the knowledge about that Lost Civilization. They'd think that this knowledge is important (any civilization are important, in their own way), and they believe said knowledge will lost with Picard.

So they hunt him down specifically, for he is the only remnant of this civilization. Hell, Picard could actually be tempted between preserving the knowledge of his lost world forever, or losing his individuality..

And then, you'd have Data show up and give HIM a Patrick Stewart speech:



Edit: Altough you could argue that "The unrelenting force pursuing the protagonist to steal information that has been implanted into his brain" is a repeat of Farscape's Season 2 plot.

Yes, there is a solid set of episodes dealing with the ramifications of locutis, he tries to retire, goes home to visit with his crotchety brother in france, the works. But its like, once he goes back to enterprise, aside from a few random comments from time to time, its like it never happened. Something like living an entire lifetime in a half hour, or being assimilated SHOULD have some sort of permanent effect on your personality. Even something as simple as a visible phobia about the borg would do, but I dont think picard has even that much of a permanent change.

I LIKE to see a gradual change in characters as a series goes on. DS9 is the best example of this, you can clearly see the personalities of the main characters changing as the series flows on. I dont think anyone is the same in the last season as they were in season 1, in some cases not even close. Even in an episodic series like tng there should be room for real character growth. Instead its treated more like an entire series of filler arcs, where none of it counts as canon, none of it gets mentioned again, and none of it has any lasting effect on the main storyline. Some changes do stick, I will grant you. But mainly they are few and far between.

[Cikomyr]

I LIKE to see a gradual change in characters as a series goes on. DS9 is the best example of this, you can clearly see the personalities of the main characters changing as the series flows on. I dont think anyone is the same in the last season as they were in season 1, in some cases not even close. Even in an episodic series like tng there should be room for real character growth. Instead its treated more like an entire series of filler arcs, where none of it counts as canon, none of it gets mentioned again, and none of it has any lasting effect on the main storyline. Some changes do stick, I will grant you. But mainly they are few and far between.

Not only character changing, evolving, but also they are put into different perspectives. After all, this is what "Lower Decks" was all about; showing exactly how true Titans the main cast are.

SFDebris addressed this a bit in his review of "Field of Fire", where Bashir came off as a mentor figure to Ezri.

BASHIR. The young doctor who in the first episode was greener than Aldebaran whiskey, obnoxious, womanizing and arrogant all around, probably even more of a tenderfeet than Simmons in "Firefly".

Had became this hardened, warm, powerful and yet still very human figure. His genetical engineering never took away the humanity from the man.

The only character you could argue lacked deep development in the course of the series was O'Brian, and that's because he was too busy being the universe's chewtoy.

[Traab]

Not only character changing, evolving, but also they are put into different perspectives. After all, this is what "Lower Decks" was all about; showing exactly how true Titans the main cast are.

SFDebris addressed this a bit in his review of "Field of Fire", where Bashir came off as a mentor figure to Ezri.

BASHIR. The young doctor who in the first episode was greener than Aldebaran whiskey, obnoxious, womanizing and arrogant all around, probably even more of a tenderfeet than Simmons in "Firefly".

Had became this hardened, warm, powerful and yet still very human figure. His genetical engineering never took away the humanity from the man.

The only character you could argue lacked deep development in the course of the series was O'Brian, and that's because he was too busy being the universe's chewtoy.


I tend to think it was more because he came to the series prehardened. Wasnt he one of the grizzled veterans from the start of the series or something?

[Cikomyr]

I tend to think it was more because he came to the series prehardened. Wasnt he one of the grizzled veterans from the start of the series or something?

Indeed. I wanted to bring that up, but it still doesn't make any sense. Sisko was also a grizzled veteran. Picard have known so much in his time as captaining the Stargazer (btw, what happened in his time between losing the Stargazer and taking command of the Enterprise?!).

Yet O'Brian doesn't evolve beyond his relationship with Bashir. He never comes to term with the projection of his self-hatred unto the Cardassians (you may think he did so in The Wounded, but I see it more as overcoming the flaw, now dealing with it).

He is an veteran soldier, family man who likes manly thing. You can describe this at the beginning of the series as well as in the ending of the series. No evolution whatsoever, sadly. You could make the argument that the DS9 Relaunch did more to help improve his character when

He accepts to follow his wife to go live on Cardassia, as she receives a big promotion and accept to compromise his own career for her sake, just as she did when he got appointed to DS9

Hell, you could make the argument that KEIKO had more character development than O'Brien. If only he had slept with Preggy Kira, that would have made things interesting!! :smallbiggrin:

[Traab]

Too be honest, obrien seemed to be more of a secondary character to me. One that faded into the background as time went on. He was mr fixit while the station was royally screwed up, he then started to kind of be the tagalong friend, or the guy who answers questions about engineering, and he just seems, I dunno, unimportant to the overall series somehow. He is more than an extra, but less than a full blown main cast member.

[McStabbington]

O'Brien was unchanging because he was the Everyman. He's the friendly guy whose always there to fix your dishwasher when it breaks, knows how to stop a drain, and with a couple of paper clips and an Exacto blade can fix most anything. He's a major stabilizing force in the series that allows other people to play off of and grow. Honestly, characters don't need to grow to be realistic. They can be stable, well-rounded characters, which is exactly what he was.

And as a side note, mention was made of how Deep Space Nine is a plagiarized copy of Babylon 5. This is something that Babylon 5 fans have been repeating to themselves to explain why Babylon 5 wasn't the breakout hit that TNG was since it's inception, but it's not true. Yes, JMS provided the story bible to CBS, and they ultimately did turn him down to develop Deep Space 9. And there are similar names and a lot of actors are used on both series. But most of the production of Deep Space Nine was already well underway when JMS provided his Bible, and looking at the plans we can see that many of the "suspicious similarities" between the two series aren't really similarities at all.

Just to toss off an example, Fivers love to say that Deep Space Nine's first officer, Kira Nerys, is a ripoff of Babylon 5's first officer Susan Ivanova. In point of fact, the original plan for Deep Space Nine was to make Ro Laren the first officer, and Ro Laren was an established character on TNG before B5's first episode came out. When Michelle Forbes, the actress who played Ro Laren, didn't want to sign on to a six-year television deal, they created an Expy of her in the form of Kira Nerys. What's more, the only way Kira and Ivanova could be considered clones of one another is if you don't know the difference between Lawful Good and Chaotic Good. A story wherein Susan Ivanova learns that sometimes being a good bureaucrat means standing up for the system and making dissenters hate you in the name of the greater good wouldn't make a lick of sense, because Susan has spent her entire adult life in the military; tolerating dissent just isn't done. By contrast, that same story revolving around Kira Nerys forms the A-plot of one of Deep Space Nine's best first season episodes.

[Wardog]

I've been watching TNG reruns recently, and



Episode 201: The Child - Pretty horrid, when you think about it. Troy is impregnated against her will, and it's treated with all the sensitivity of a pie in the face.


Oh God, that episode was horrible.

I really hope that alien didn't go away thinking that that was an acceptible way to behave towards people. Or that anything it experienced taught it anything meaningful about human interactions.

(Also, it was lucky for it that it existed in the Trek-verse, and impregnated Troi. In another reality, it could have tried it on Ellan Ripley).



Episode 212: The Royale - Incredibly boring. the crew finds a thingie in space that does a thingie and some of them get trapped in the thingie and I dunno, stuff happens I guess? I can't seem to pay any attention to it. It's like a run-of-the-mill Voyager episode, but sillier, somehow.

Is that the one with the planet based on a bad novel? (Literally - as in an Alien Force had constructed a world for a lost astronaut, based on a terrible novel he had in his ship). Worst. Planet-based-on-a-specific-aspect-of-human-culture. Ever. And definitely the worst episode based on that trope, ever.

[Joran]

Is that the one with the planet based on a bad novel? (Literally - as in an Alien Force had constructed a world for a lost astronaut, based on a terrible novel he had in his ship). Worst. Planet-based-on-a-specific-aspect-of-human-culture. Ever. And definitely the worst episode based on that trope, ever.

But it's a tried and true Star Trek episode concept! TOS had the planet based on gangsters and another planet based on Nazis!

[The Glyphstone]

But it's a tried and true Star Trek episode concept! TOS had the planet based on gangsters and another planet based on Nazis!

" was stranded on a planet, Just me and Spock
We met a nasty nazi alien who locked our asses up
We found a hunk of crystal and a metal piece of bed
We made a laser phaser gun and shot him in the head..."

[Kitten Champion]

TNG didn't get good until they stopped emulating TOS and started a more natural feel. Doing more day-to-day things like playing poker, having interpersonal relationships which weren't necessarily melodramatic, having people actually doing their job and that being interesting, and not sending Picard out on every away mission pointlessly. TNG took the grandious space opera themes and softened them, they didn't fight battles or face life-and-death situations every week -- people in TNG have families, and occasionally life was actually boring, or seemed that way. It simply took time to get that way.

The "planet of the hats" idea was thankfully reigned in with Trek writers mid-90's -- Voyager and Enterprise still had a few in their less successful moments, whereas DS9 brought depth into alien societies by its very nature.

[Aotrs Commander]

Funnily enough, the Child, the Royale, and the Outrageuous Okana didn't bother me as much as some (though the former I found uncomfortable, even as a kid in the eighties); the one that really gets my goat and I find I just can't watch was Justice (which, was again, one of the very early episodes). Something about that episode just really grated on me; the mostly-naked promiscuous population, the ludricrous "death for any crime, where crime means 'accidental' damage", the alien-space-god fraktard... It all just repelled me. I hated that episode.

I think the only other episode in the whole of ST I found as objectionable was the DS9 one where a recurring character (not naming names in case of spoilers) got his memory wiped, because I consider that worse than murder and hypocrasy of the highest order, more so given the circumstances.

(As you can imagine, I wasn't amused when they espoused that as being preferable a punishment to execution in B5, either, but at least in B5 a) it was a punishment for serious crimes like murder, b) there were people with different opinions (Lichemaster bless dear Mr. Garibaldi), and c) they showed what a fracking horrid mess you can get out of it when you do that and do it wrong.)

[Gnoman]

I had much the same reaction to the DS9 episode in question, but the TNG era one that bothered me most was the one where a planet started worshiping Picard.