Can the Heroics spell be used to qualify?

[RichardAK]

My question is whether the spell Heroics (Spell Compendium, p. 113) can be used to qualify for other things. To wit, certain feats are prerequisites for other feats, prestige classes, skill tricks, teamwork benefits, and other things besides. Could one use the Heroics spell to temporarily gain a fighter feat, and then use that to qualify for something else that requires that feat as a prerequisite?

For example, suppose one wanted to take the feat Rapid Shot, but did not have the feat Point Blank Shot. Could one cast Heroics to gain Point Blank Shot, and then take the feat Rapid Shot while the spell was in effect? Could one cast Heroics twice, once to get Point Blank Shot and then the second time to get Rapid Shot? If the answer to either question is yes, would the second feat, Rapid Shot in this example, continue to function after the Heroics spell that provided the prerequisite wore off? If not, would it disappear altogether, or would it only cease to function while the character did not have the prerequisite, only to start functioning again if the character cast Heroics again?

Or what about qualifying for prestige classes? Could Heroics be used for that purpose, and, if so, what would happen when the spell wore off? Would the character still have the class? Would the character still be able to advance in the class? Would the character lose the abilities of the class, but regain them if the spell were recast? How would that work?

Is there an actual rule on this somewhere? I've looked, but I haven't found anything. For the record, the spell description reads as follows:

The heroics spell temporarily grants the subject a feat from the fighter’s bonus feat list. For the duration of the heroics spell, the subject can use the feat as if it were one of those the creature had selected. All prerequisites for the feat must be met by the target of this spell.
Material Component: A bit of a weapon or armor that has been used in combat by a fighter of at least 15th level.
As you can see, it specifically says that it grants the feat, not that it allows the character to simulate having the feat.

[Curmudgeon]

Theoretically? Yes. Practically? Almost never.

If you read the LEVEL ADVANCEMENT rules (Player's Handbook, pages 58-59) you'll see that you "go up a level" immediately when you earn enough XP to do so. There's no preparation time to cast some spells or whatever else you want to do; it's immediate (unless you spend the XP for crafting or spellcasting, which must also be immediate). So basically this would only work if your DM told you that you're going to be awarded enough XP to level up, and explicitly gave you prep time beforehand.

Personally, if a player came to me with a character that had required such shenanigans to get to their current state, I'd immediately force them to use the retraining rules (Player's Handbook II) to change those class levels to something that didn't require shenanigans to acquire. It's just not fair to other players if one PC is built by playing fast and loose with the rules.

[chaos_redefined]

I'd allow the Heroicsx2 thing, but not Heroics at level-up.

[Draz74]

I'd allow the Heroicsx2 thing, but not Heroics at level-up.

Many people would agree with this ... but ironically, RAW is arguably the other way around.

As Curmudgeon already confirmed, theoretically Heroics can be used to qualify for something at level-up. (Although even if your DM allows this, he may rule that you lose all the benefits that you qualified for whenever you aren't affected by the spell. So watch out for that.)

On the other hand, whether you can gain two feats simultaneously from two castings of Heroics has been debated extensively, and I don't think the forum has ever really come to a consensus about it. That's regardless of whether one of the feats has the other feat as a prerequisite, or not. (It's really the same question as whether you can gain fire resistance and acid resistance at the same time from two castings of Resist Energy. Which is similarly devoid of consensus.)

[RichardAK]

Curmudgeon wrote:

Theoretically? Yes. Practically? Almost never.

If you read the LEVEL ADVANCEMENT rules (Player's Handbook, pages 58-59) you'll see that you "go up a level" immediately when you earn enough XP to do so. There's no preparation time to cast some spells or whatever else you want to do; it's immediate (unless you spend the XP for crafting or spellcasting, which must also be immediate). So basically this would only work if your DM told you that you're going to be awarded enough XP to level up, and explicitly gave you prep time beforehand.
I have read the level advancement rules. The obstacle you are describing is not a very strong one. At the lowest possible caster level, Heroics will have a thirty minute duration. If you know your character is close to having enough experience to level up, and if you reasonably expect an experience-yielding encounter to occur soon (and usually the party has a pretty good idea about these things), you cast Heroics right beforehand. It will easily outlast any battle; when was the last time you were in a battle that lasted anywhere close to three-hundred rounds? The spell will then be in effect when the experience gets awarded, at which point you will immediately, as you point out, level up. Furthermore, the rules do explicitly say that "A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite." (PHB, p. 87) That suggests that time does pass, so to speak, between leveling and feat selection, so that you could level up, cast Heroics, and then select another feat.


Personally, if a player came to me with a character that had required such shenanigans to get to their current state, I'd immediately force them to use the retraining rules (Player's Handbook II) to change those class levels to something that didn't require shenanigans to acquire. It's just not fair to other players if one PC is built by playing fast and loose with the rules.

I'd allow the Heroicsx2 thing, but not Heroics at level-up.

As Curmudgeon already confirmed, theoretically Heroics can be used to qualify for something at level-up. (Although even if your DM allows this, he may rule that you lose all the benefits that you qualified for whenever you aren't affected by the spell. So watch out for that.)
I'm not asking what any given DM would allow. I probably wouldn't allow it. I might not allow the spell at all. A second-level spell that grants you any fighter feat for at least half an hour? That seems way overpowered. What I'm asking is if anyone knows of a rule that says you have to have a feat permanently, by having selected it as feat upon reaching a level that permits you to select a feat, in order to use that feat to qualify for other things. I would expect such a rule to exist, but I can't find it anywhere.

All that being said, the rules do explicitly say (I just found this when I was looking for the rule about getting the prerequisite at the same level as the feat that it was the prereq for) that "A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite. For example, if your character’s Strength drops below 13 because a ray of enfeeblement spell, he or she can’t use the Power Attack feat until the prerequisite is once again met." (PHB, p. 87) That does suggest to me that the rules do contemplate a character losing a prereq; that would suggest that a character could cast Heroics to qualify for another feat, but that the second feat would stop working once the spell wore off, and start working again if the spell were cast a second time.

Is there a similar rule for prestige classes that I'm missing? I seem to recall reading that if you lose a requirement for a prestige class, you cannot continue advancing in it until you regain the requirement, but that you don't lose the existing abilities. Is that the rule somewhere?

[TuggyNE]

(It's really the same question as whether you can gain fire resistance and acid resistance at the same time from two castings of Resist Energy. Which is similarly devoid of consensus.)

Wait. That's actually a thing, people argue that you can't get fire resistance and sonic resistance at the same time? :smallconfused:

[Ashtagon]

My question is whether the spell Heroics (Spell Compendium, p. 113) can be used to qualify for other things. To wit, certain feats are prerequisites for other feats, prestige classes, skill tricks, teamwork benefits, and other things besides. Could one use the Heroics spell to temporarily gain a fighter feat, and then use that to qualify for something else that requires that feat as a prerequisite?

For example, suppose one wanted to take the feat Rapid Shot, but did not have the feat Point Blank Shot. Could one cast Heroics to gain Point Blank Shot, and then take the feat Rapid Shot while the spell was in effect? Could one cast Heroics twice, once to get Point Blank Shot and then the second time to get Rapid Shot? If the answer to either question is yes, would the second feat, Rapid Shot in this example, continue to function after the Heroics spell that provided the prerequisite wore off? If not, would it disappear altogether, or would it only cease to function while the character did not have the prerequisite, only to start functioning again if the character cast Heroics again?

Or what about qualifying for prestige classes? Could Heroics be used for that purpose, and, if so, what would happen when the spell wore off? Would the character still have the class? Would the character still be able to advance in the class? Would the character lose the abilities of the class, but regain them if the spell were recast? How would that work?

Is there an actual rule on this somewhere? I've looked, but I haven't found anything. For the record, the spell description reads as follows:

As you can see, it specifically says that it grants the feat, not that it allows the character to simulate having the feat.

Relevant SRD passages:


(Prestige classes) Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.

So you have to meet the prerequisites when you first enter the prestige class. But by strict SRD RAW, those prerequisites become utterly irrelevant once you have that first level in the class. Personally, I rule that if at any time you lose the prerequisites of the class (not counting losing those prerequisites as a result of features of that class), you lose all class features gained from the class (but retain hp, BAB, and save bonuses).

Whether the heroics spell can let you qualify for a prestige class really depends on how your DM handles levelling up. If your DM says levelling is instantaneous on gaining the required XP and you just happen to have the spell up with the right bonus feat, you technically qualify and the prestige class stays. But boy is that ever shenanigans. If like me your DM says levelling up is something that happens with a full night's rest (aka eight hours sleep or long rest) or longer (seek a mentor for training etc.), then the spell definitely wouldn't help.

Note that certain prestige classes have their own rules for becoming an ex-prestigeclass, which may modify the above for that class.


(feats): Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.

That last line is pretty clear. You must have the prerequisite at the time, both when you gain the feat and at any time when you use the feat.

If you have the spell up when you level, you could technically use it to qualify for a second feat. But again, shenanigans. However, the second feat would not function once the spell has expired, unless and until you either cast the spell again for the base feat, or get a more permanent way to maintain the base feat.

[Draz74]

Wait. That's actually a thing, people argue that you can't get fire resistance and sonic resistance at the same time? :smallconfused:

Yep. And as far as RAW goes, I actually agree with this interpretation.

Here's the relevant rule: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects)


Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

EDIT: Obviously you can have fire resistance and acid resistance at the same time if they aren't both being caused by the Resist Energy spell, e.g. if one of them is racial or from a magic item. The controversy is only when they are both from Resist Energy.

[TuggyNE]

Yep. And as far as RAW goes, I actually agree with this interpretation.

Here's the relevant rule: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects)

Yeesh, that is ill-thought-out. But to be fair, that does seem to be RAW....

*wanders off to edit homebrew spell*

[Ashtagon]

Yeesh, that is ill-thought-out. But to be fair, that does seem to be RAW....

*wanders off to edit homebrew spell*

If you look at the spell's history through the editions, you'll notice that it was originally a number of separate spells (protection from $energy_type)> I houseruled them all back out into separate spells.

[TuggyNE]

If you look at the spell's history through the editions, you'll notice that it was originally a number of separate spells (protection from $energy_type)> I houseruled them all back out into separate spells.

Either way works. But yeah, pretty sure the clear RAW here is idiotic and needs to be fixed.

[RichardAK]

Here's something interesting. The rebuilding rules in the PHBII say something that bears on this issue on pages 197 and 198:

If reallocating your character’s class levels disqualifies him for a prestige class in which he already has one or more levels, he loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by that prestige class. He retains the hit points gained from advancing in that class, as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that those levels provided. However, you can always use the class level rebuilding option to replace the now-useless prestige class levels as well—and you probably should, unless you’re sure that the character will be able to meet the requirements again soon.
And:

If a change of race disqualifies the character for a prestige class in which she already has one or more levels, she loses the benefi t of any class features or other special abilities granted by that prestige class. She retains the hit points gained from advancing in that class, as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that those levels provided. However, you can use the class level rebuilding option to replace the now-useless prestige class levels—and you probably should, unless you’re
sure that the character will be able to meet the requirements again soon.
In the rules on feat retraining, however, there is no such rule, but it also does not say the opposite. I suppose you could interpret this omission in two ways. You could hold that these stated rules should be models for how to deal with the issue of a character losing the qualification for a prestige class. Alternatively, you could hold that the fact that the rule is stated explicitly for these two cases, and only these two, indicates that they are exceptions, and that otherwise, no such rule applies.

[Emperor Tippy]

The easy way is to cast Heroics and then use Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos to turn it into a permanent feat that you want. You now qualify and per the RAW it's completely legal.

[Morcleon]

Yep. And as far as RAW goes, I actually agree with this interpretation.

Here's the relevant rule: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects)

EDIT: Obviously you can have fire resistance and acid resistance at the same time if they aren't both being caused by the Resist Energy spell, e.g. if one of them is racial or from a magic item. The controversy is only when they are both from Resist Energy.


Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).

Emphasis mine. Fire resistance and acid resistance are different abilities. Thus, one can have Resist Energy (fire) and Resist Energy (acid) can affect the same person at the same time.

[ericgrau]

Yep. And as far as RAW goes, I actually agree with this interpretation.

Here's the relevant rule: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects)



Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

EDIT: Obviously you can have fire resistance and acid resistance at the same time if they aren't both being caused by the Resist Energy spell, e.g. if one of them is racial or from a magic item. The controversy is only when they are both from Resist Energy.
I used to think the same thing until I read it more carefully, and checked the rule in the Player's Handbook and saw the example spell. The key section there is that the previous spells are irrelevant, not that they don't stack. Why would fire resistance be irrelevant with acid resistance? It isn't. The example I saw involved polymorph, where a 2nd polymorph makes the first one irrelevant. Furthermore this rule says "usually" not "always". If you change a creature into something else, give a creature a new command or put an illusion over an illusion then the previous spell becomes irrelevant.

What you're implying is that the same spell doesn't stack with itself regardless, which isn't the case. That's only if it has the same bonus twice.

[RichardAK]

The easy way is to cast Heroics and then use Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos to turn it into a permanent feat that you want. You now qualify and per the RAW it's completely legal.
I'm not sure that I see how that would work at all. Those two spells transform feats into other feats, but they don't say anything about making those feats permanent. I could see casting Heroics to get a fighter feat, then casting Embrace the Dark Chaos to transform into an Abyssal heritor feat, and then using Shun the Dark Chaos to transform into any other kind of feat, but I don't see why this new feat wouldn't disappear when the original Heroics casting expired. May I ask what your reasoning is on this?

[Emperor Tippy]

I'm not sure that I see how that would work at all. Those two spells transform feats into other feats, but they don't say anything about making those feats permanent. I could see casting Heroics to get a fighter feat, then casting Embrace the Dark Chaos to transform into an Abyssal heritor feat, and then using Shun the Dark Chaos to transform into any other kind of feat, but I don't see why this new feat wouldn't disappear when the original Heroics casting expired. May I ask what your reasoning is on this?

Because Heroics removes the feat it gave you (say you used it to gain Power Attack, when it's duration expires it removes Power Attack), a feat that Embrace/Shun has already removed. Heroics does not give you another feat slot, let you fill that with whatever feat you want (from the list of allowed feats), and then remove the feat slot when it's duration expires. It let's you pick a feat from that list, gives it to you, and then removes the same feat when it's duration expires.

[Ashtagon]

Because Heroics removes the feat it gave you (say you used it to gain Power Attack, when it's duration expires it removes Power Attack), a feat that Embrace/Shun has already removed. Heroics does not give you another feat slot, let you fill that with whatever feat you want (from the list of allowed feats), and then remove the feat slot when it's duration expires. It let's you pick a feat from that list, gives it to you, and then removes the same feat when it's duration expires.

Do you truthfully think this is RAI?

[Absol197]

Because Heroics removes the feat it gave you (say you used it to gain Power Attack, when it's duration expires it removes Power Attack), a feat that Embrace/Shun has already removed. Heroics does not give you another feat slot, let you fill that with whatever feat you want (from the list of allowed feats), and then remove the feat slot when it's duration expires. It let's you pick a feat from that list, gives it to you, and then removes the same feat when it's duration expires.

Uuuhhh...no.

A better way to think about it this:

Unless it has a duration of "Instantaneous," a spell gives the subject a trait. That trait could be positive, negative, or neutral, but it gives a trait. When the duration expires (or is dispelled, or supressed, or what have you), that trait goes away. After the traits goes away, you have the same stats as you did before you got that trait.

Heroics gives you the trait, "1 feat." The caveat is that it has to be a fighter bonus feat, but the basic effect is a feat. When the spell ends, you will lose that trait of "1 feat." It can't be any of the feats you had before it was cast, so it will have to be whatever additional feat you have, regardless of how you've changed that feat in the meantime with other abilities.

The moral of the story being, when a spell ends, you lose something. Otherwise, it gets rediculous.


~Phoenix~

[Aegis013]

Uuuhhh...no.

A better way to think about it this:

Unless it has a duration of "Instantaneous," a spell gives the subject a trait. That trait could be positive, negative, or neutral, but it gives a trait. When the duration expires (or is dispelled, or supressed, or what have you), that trait goes away. After the traits goes away, you have the same stats as you did before you got that trait.

Heroics gives you the trait, "1 feat." The caveat is that it has to be a fighter bonus feat, but the basic effect is a feat. When the spell ends, you will lose that trait of "1 feat." It can't be any of the feats you had before it was cast, so it will have to be whatever additional feat you have, regardless of how you've changed that feat in the meantime with other abilities.

The moral of the story being, when a spell ends, you lose something. Otherwise, it gets rediculous.


~Phoenix~

I suspect nobody will argue that it is ridiculous. It really is. But the Dark Chaos Shuffle is all about abusing the "Instantaneous" effect. And it does allow you to do that by RAW, from my understanding. Trade temporarily gained feats out for permanently gained ones.


Do you truthfully think this is RAI?

I doubt many people would argue anything involving the Dark Chaos Shuffle is RAI.

[Curmudgeon]

Furthermore, the rules do explicitly say that "A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite." (PHB, p. 87) That suggests that time does pass, so to speak, between leveling and feat selection, so that you could level up, cast Heroics, and then select another feat.
A character can gain a feat via Step 7. Feats of the level advancement process. However, there is no time in this schedule; it all happens immediately, in the specified order. The process does not afford any opportunity to cast spells.

Is there a similar rule for prestige classes that I'm missing? I seem to recall reading that if you lose a requirement for a prestige class, you cannot continue advancing in it until you regain the requirement, but that you don't lose the existing abilities. Is that the rule somewhere? Because Step 1. Choose Class is required for every level advancement, you must satisfy the entry requirements for the class every time you wish to add a level, whether it's your first level in a class or not. Additionally, there are two (substantially different) rules in Complete Warrior (page 16) and Complete Arcane (page 17) which require you to maintain the entry requirements for prestige classes in those two books continuously, or lose PrC benefits. See those two books for exactly what different benefits you lose.

Relevant SRD passages:


(Prestige classes) Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.
So you have to meet the prerequisites when you first enter the prestige class. But by strict SRD RAW, those prerequisites become utterly irrelevant once you have that first level in the class.
I don't see how that's "by strict SRD RAW" when you somehow read the rule which (correctly) stated that you must meet the requirements before your first level in a prestige class as if it (incorrectly) stated that you must meet the requirements before only your first level in a prestige class. As I noted in my response to RichardAK above, and you repeated in the blue text of your quote, you go through the same steps for every level advancement.

Here's the relevant rule: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects)
Actually, "Same Effect with Differing Results" is the irrelevant rule. The SRD, because it removes examples, is less useful than the Player's Handbook (page 172) here. The results differ from multiple Polymorph castings because each body is only capable of holding a single form at a time; the effects of repeated applications of this spell must necessarily differ/vary rather than stack. This rule isn't relevant to a spell when it produces different rather than differing effects, as Resist Energy does; a body is quite capable of holding both resist acid 10 and resist fire 20 at the same time.

[Draz74]

I used to think the same thing until I read it more carefully, and checked the rule in the Player's Handbook and saw the example spell. The key section there is that the previous spells are irrelevant, not that they don't stack. Why would fire resistance be irrelevant with acid resistance? It isn't. The example I saw involved polymorph, where a 2nd polymorph makes the first one irrelevant. Furthermore this rule says "usually" not "always". If you change a creature into something else, give a creature a new command or put an illusion over an illusion then the previous spell becomes irrelevant.

What you're implying is that the same spell doesn't stack with itself regardless, which isn't the case. That's only if it has the same bonus twice.


The SRD, because it removes examples, is less useful than the Player's Handbook (page 172) here. The results differ from multiple Polymorph castings because each body is only capable of holding a single form at a time; the effects of repeated applications of this spell must necessarily differ/vary rather than stack. This rule isn't relevant to a spell when it produces different rather than differing effects, as Resist Energy does; a body is quite capable of holding both resist acid 10 and resist fire 20 at the same time.

Yep, this is the counter-argument. Like I said earlier, big debates on this topic have never reached a real consensus.

The Polymorph example given in the PHB doesn't actually change the facts of the preceding text, which still states that multiple castings of the same spell aren't "relevant" simultaneously.

Frankly, RAW doesn't make a lot of sense with either interpretation, when applied to Resist Energy (or Heroics), because relevancy is a subjective thing ...

[RichardAK]

Because Heroics removes the feat it gave you (say you used it to gain Power Attack, when it's duration expires it removes Power Attack), a feat that Embrace/Shun has already removed. Heroics does not give you another feat slot, let you fill that with whatever feat you want (from the list of allowed feats), and then remove the feat slot when it's duration expires. It let's you pick a feat from that list, gives it to you, and then removes the same feat when it's duration expires.
As far as I can tell, it does nothing of the kind. Here again is the text of the Heroics spell:

The heroics spell temporarily grants the subject a feat from the fighter’s bonus feat list. For the duration of the heroics spell, the subject can use the feat as if it were one of those the creature had selected. All prerequisites for the feat must be met by the target of this spell.
Material Component: A bit of a weapon or armor that has been used in combat by a fighter of at least 15th level.
It specifically says that it temporarily grants the subject a feat. It does not say anywhere that it removes the feat it gave you. Rather, when the spell duration expires, its effect wears off. That's all.

Now, Embrace and Shun the Dark Chaos might transform that feat into another feat, but there is no reason to think they will make that feat permanent. Nothing in their spell descriptions says that they make temporary feats permanent.


Because Step 1. Choose Class is required for every level advancement, you must satisfy the entry requirements for the class every time you wish to add a level, whether it's your first level in a class or not. Additionally, there are two (substantially different) rules in Complete Warrior (page 16) and Complete Arcane (page 17) which require you to maintain the entry requirements for prestige classes in those two books continuously, or lose PrC benefits. See those two books for exactly what different benefits you lose.
That seems pretty clear Curmudgeon, but I do have a question about the rule in Complete Warrior:

Meeting Class Requirements: It’s possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class.
If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided.
Specifically, the phrase "the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability" suggests that one could qualify for a prestige class by having a magic item that granted one a requisite feat. You would lose the class' special abilities upon losing that item, or upon its effect wearing off, but you would presumably regain those abilities upon regaining the item, or upon the renewal of its effect. Would you say that that's accurate?

[WarKitty]

Of course, if we're talking fighter bonus feats...half the time you could just hand them out and not have it matter.

[Emperor Tippy]

Do you truthfully think this is RAI?

RAI? Not at all. The same with using the Chaos Shuffle to exchange the elven racial proficiencies, feats from locations, etc. But RAI is not RAW.


Uuuhhh...no.

A better way to think about it this:

Unless it has a duration of "Instantaneous," a spell gives the subject a trait. That trait could be positive, negative, or neutral, but it gives a trait. When the duration expires (or is dispelled, or supressed, or what have you), that trait goes away. After the traits goes away, you have the same stats as you did before you got that trait.

Heroics gives you the trait, "1 feat." The caveat is that it has to be a fighter bonus feat, but the basic effect is a feat. When the spell ends, you will lose that trait of "1 feat." It can't be any of the feats you had before it was cast, so it will have to be whatever additional feat you have, regardless of how you've changed that feat in the meantime with other abilities.

The moral of the story being, when a spell ends, you lose something. Otherwise, it gets rediculous.
Embrace and Shun are Instantaneous spells. Heroics says that you loose the feat it gave you when the duration expires. You, however, no longer have that feat.



~Phoenix~
Why do people do this? Your name is right next to your post, you have an avatar so we can visually identify you easier, you have a signature that is automatically attached to every post. Why do you type one (and in a different color at that) at the end of a post?

[RichardAK]

Of course, if we're talking fighter bonus feats...half the time you could just hand them out and not have it matter.
Well, that's the whole problem, isn't it? There are prestige classes that are worth taking that require certain feats that are, in and of themselves, worthless. The whole reason for this discussion is to determine if there are any ways around this problem, so that one does not have to waste scarce feat-slots on otherwise worthless feats just to qualify for a given prestige class.


Heroics says that you loose the feat it gave you when the duration expires.
Except it does not say that. It says that it temporarily grants a feat for the duration of the spell, not that you lose the feat when the duration expires. That's a critical difference.

[Absol197]

Embrace and Shun are Instantaneous spells. Heroics says that you loose the feat it gave you when the duration expires. You, however, no longer have that feat.

I'll admit, I don't know what Embrace and Shun are. I've never heard of them. Regardless, I believe you're making some false assumptions here. As posted above, the text of the Heroics spell is thus:


The heroics spell temporarily grants the subject a feat from the fighter’s bonus feat list. For the duration of the heroics spell, the subject can use the feat as if it were one of those the creature had selected. All prerequisites for the feat must be met by the target of this spell.

There are two important bits here. The first is the bolded bit. That is the primary effect of the spell, what it does. Everything else is explaination. And, like I said before, once a spell's duration ends, the effect goes away. It granted you a feat above and beyond those granted by your race, class, template, or any other static abilities. Once the spell ends, you will lose a feat, and be left only with those granted by your race, class, template, etc.

The second part (underlined) is also important here. "As if it was" means that the feat in question is not a normal feat that you select, but it is treated liek one for the purposes of using it. You do not actually have the feat, you can just use the effects. A fine line, perhaps, but an important one in discussions of rules minutia.

Finally, as mentioned before, it does not say that you lose the specific feat granted when the spell ends, only that you can use the feat granted while the spell persists. Once the spell is over, you can no longer use any feats other than the ones you have from (you guessed it!) your race, class, template, etc. Unless you have another spell or ability that grants you feats, but those would be tracked separately. You cast heroics, you can use a feat. Once it ends, you can no longer use a feat.


Why do people do this? Your name is right next to your post, you have an avatar so we can visually identify you easier, you have a signature that is automatically attached to every post. Why do you type one (and in a different color at that) at the end of a post?

It's a LGBTAitP self-identity affirmation thing. I'm sorry it bothers you so much; I'll refrain from doing so here.

[RichardAK]

Do I need to hyperlink you to the definition of temporary here?
No. Do I need to link you to the definition of the word politeness? Also, see Absol197's response. The entire argument that one could do this absurd thing with the Embrace and Shun spells rests on the notion that when the Heroics spell ends, it specifically removes the particular feat it granted you. It does not say that, and it does not do that.

[dextercorvia]

Except it does not say that. It says that it temporarily grants a feat for the duration of the spell, not that you lose the feat when the duration expires. That's a critical difference.

If it grants a fighter bonus feat for the duration, then what exactly does it stop granting when the duration expires.

[Aegis013]

I'll admit, I don't know what Embrace and Shun are. I've never heard of them.

Found your problem. They're in Fiendish Codex I. They're both 8th level spells on the Cleric and Sor/Wiz lists.

Embrace the Dark Chaos allows you to exchange any feat you have for any Abyssal heritor feat, and is an instantaneous spell.

Shun the Dark Chaos allows you to exchange any Abyssal heritor feat you have and replace it with any other feat you qualify for. This is also an instantaneous spell effect.

It's a very abusive trick, and like I said earlier, likely nobody will argue that it is RAI, but it does let you exchange temporarily gained feats (such as through Heroics) for permanently gained feats.

[Absol197]

If it grants a fighter bonus feat for the duration, then what exactly does it stop granting when the duration expires.

It doesn't grant a "Fighter bonus feat" for the duration. It grants "a feat" for the duration, with the caveat that that feat needs to come from the list of fighter bonus feats.

When the spell ends, it stops granting you the effect: 1 feat. If you have X feats before casting the spell, you will have X+1 feats while the spell is in use. After the spell ends, you will once again have X feats. Those you yourself selected for every 3 HD, plus those granted by your race, class, etc., cannot go away, so whichever feat is left goes away, no matter what you changed it to in the meantime.

Additionally, I'd like to point out again that it technically doesn't give you a feat as if you'd hit an even-numbered fighter level - this isn't a "bonus feat." Instead, it grants you the ability to use the effect of a fighter bonus feat "as if you had selected it" for the duration. Since you don't actually have the feat, you shouldn't be able to use it for prerequsites.

EDIT:


Found your problem. They're in Fiendish Codex I. They're both 8th level spells on the Cleric and Sor/Wiz lists.

Embrace the Dark Chaos allows you to exchange any feat you have for any Abyssal heritor feat, and is an instantaneous spell.

Shun the Dark Chaos allows you to exchange any Abyssal heritor feat you have and replace it with any other feat you qualify for. This is also an instantaneous spell effect.

It's a very abusive trick, and like I said earlier, likely nobody will argue that it is RAI, but it does let you exchange temporarily gained feats (such as through Heroics) for permanently gained feats. Edit: Assuming that you interpret Heroics to stop granting you the feat that it was used to grant you originally.

I expected as much. However, the exact wording becomes important here, because like I've said before, heroics doesn't really give you a feat, it grants you the ability to use the effects of a feat as if you had selected it (based on my interpretation; I suppose I could see how it could be interpreted the other way). So that would mean the "feat" gained likely wouldn't be a viable target for Embrace or Shun.

However, even if it did actually give you the feat in the exact same way as, say, leveling did, it still shouldn't work, as per what I explained above.

[RichardAK]

If it grants a fighter bonus feat for the duration, then what exactly does it stop granting when the duration expires.
It stops granting the extra feat. If the feat that it was granting had been transformed through Embrace or Shun into another feat, it is that new feat that it would stop granting.

Edit: Ninja'd once again by Absol.

[dextercorvia]

It doesn't grant a "Fighter bonus feat" for the duration. It grants "a feat" for the duration, with the caveat that that feat needs to come from the list of fighter bonus feats.

When the spell ends, it stops granting you the effect: 1 feat. If you have X feats before casting the spell, you will have X+1 feats while the spell is in use. After the spell ends, you will once again have X feats. Those you yourself selected for every 3 HD, plus those granted by your race, class, etc., cannot go away, so whichever feat is left goes away, no matter what you changed it to in the meantime.

Additionally, I'd like to point out again that it technically doesn't give you a feat as if you'd hit an even-numbered fighter level - this isn't a "bonus feat." Instead, it grants you the ability to use the effect of a fighter bonus feat "as if you had selected it" for the duration. Since you don't actually have the feat, you shouldn't be able to use it for prerequsites.

It says it grants you a feat from the fighter bonus list for the duration. So, it grants you the feat for the duration. You have the feat.

Embrace the Dark Chaos doesn't just trade you for one of your old feats, it says:

The subject immediately gains one Abyssal heritor feat for which it qualifies, chosen by you at the time of casting.
If the subject does not qualify for the designated feat, the spell fails.
This Abyssal heritor feat replaces one feat of the subject's choice that it already possesses.
The replaced feat need not have been an Abyssal heritor feat.
If the lost feat was a prerequisite for other feats or prestige classes, the subject loses access to those feats or prestige class abilities until it once again meets all the prerequisites.
Once the subject has the Abyssal heritor feat, only a miracle,
shun the dark chaos, or wish spell can reverse the change.

Heroics expiring can not get rid of the new Abyssal heritor feat. Once Heroics is gone, you use Shun the Dark Chaos.


Edit: To respond to the intervening posts. The feat is not transformed. It is lost, and a new one is gained in its place.

[Dragon Mage]

This combo does work based off the text. However I can't imagine the DM not ruling against this. I myself would rule in the way Absol197 described. If my players get extra feats with out limit it would break the game and ruin the fun.

[Tvtyrant]

You could craft a Heroics contingency for level gaining though. "When I am about to gain a level Heroics is cast and grants me this feat." Redo every single level for relatively cheap.

[Curmudgeon]

You could craft a Heroics contingency for level gaining though. "When I am about to gain a level Heroics is cast and grants me this feat."
I suspect most DMs would have some reservations about your character crafting a contingency based on player information. Level gain is one of those things that's visible to the players but not the characters.
Training and Practice: Characters spend time between adventures training, studying, or otherwise practicing their skills. This work consolidates what they learn on adventures and keeps them in top form. (That's from the "Level Advancement" section of Player's Handbook.) From a PC's perspective they're constantly training and learning; it's only from a player's perspective that there are jumps in capabilities from "going up a level".

[olentu]

I suspect most DMs would have some reservations about your character crafting a contingency based on player information. Level gain is one of those things that's visible to the players but not the characters. (That's from the "Level Advancement" section of Player's Handbook.) From a PC's perspective they're constantly training and learning; it's only from a player's perspective that there are jumps in capabilities from "going up a level".

Eh, if that fluff had any rules behind it we might have something there. But, you know, the mechanics are the mechanics and in this case you go up a level all at once. Or perhaps I should say "[T]here is no time in this schedule; it all happens immediately, in the specified order."

Though I suppose some DMs might have reservations. But I could say the same about lots of stuff.

[Hirax]

As an alternative, heroics is only a 2nd level spell with a 10 minutes/level duration. It wouldn't be that difficult to keep running all the time during adventuring hours. You certainly wouldn't to keep it running while you slept, I can't imagine you'd gain exp while doing that. Once you nab the feat (or whatever) you were using heroics to qualify for, you wouldn't need to be as stringent about keeping heroics up and running, as you only lose the ability to use a feat when its pre reqs go away, you don't lose the feat itself.