Tank + Skill Monkey

[prufock]

How would you go about building a character that is both "tank" (frontline combat that can take a licking and also dish it out) and skill monkey (able to search, disable, open locks and all that good stuff)? Is it possible to do this well without being spread too thin?

[Cranthis]

How would you go about building a character that is both "tank" (frontline combat that can take a licking and also dish it out) and skill monkey (able to search, disable, open locks and all that good stuff)? Is it possible to do this well without being spread too thin?

Chameleon prestige class. Races of Desitiny.

[HunterColt22]

Chameleon prestige class. Races of Desitiny.

I think you still need to get the trap finding ability from somewhere, which in most cases will require at least a starting point, of either ranger or scout. Both can get trap finding at lvl 1, scout via normal class ability and ranger as an acf. Or you could simply just got barbarian acf that replaces trap sense with trapfinding where you use your survival to search for them and then your ATT. bonus to disable it, brings new meaning to the phrase tripping a trap. :smallsigh:.

[prufock]

That's one way to do it, but how effective would it be? Stealth Focus is pretty limited; you get +2/+4 to the right skills, but they're all competence bonuses, and you don't have them as class skills. Same goes for Combat Focus. You can make up for BAB, but the skills fall behind your max ranks.

What would you use as the base class(es)?

[ZeroNumerous]

Human Rogue 3/Swashbuckler X with Able Learner.

All your rogue class skills are still class skills when you go into Swashbuckler, they simply cost more points to advance. Able Learner reduces it back to 1, and lets you advance your rogue skills as per normal. You already have all the skill-monkey requirements by Rogue 3. Swashbuckler X gives you full BAB and d10 HD.

From there, just take battlefield control feats(stand still, Ex. Weapon Prof: Spiked Chain, etc) and you'll have a tank-monkey.

[prufock]

Human Rogue 3/Swashbuckler X with Able Learner.

All your rogue class skills are still class skills when you go into Swashbuckler, they simply cost more points to advance. Able Learner reduces it back to 1, and lets you advance your rogue skills as per normal. You already have all the skill-monkey requirements by Rogue 3. Swashbuckler X gives you full BAB and d10 HD.

From there, just take battlefield control feats(stand still, Ex. Weapon Prof: Spiked Chain, etc) and you'll have a tank-monkey.

That's pretty fluid. Grab the Daring Outlaw feat too, I guess. Not bad...

Any other ways? Keep em coming!

[StreamOfTheSky]

S/He didn't start out as a tank, and his/her stat spread was VERY thin (high point buy helped), but I loved my Changeling. Level 1 in Rogue for the 10 + int skills multiplied by 4 and the social skill boons, then into Factotum. Forgot the exact order, but went up to Factotum 3 for Brains Over Brawn and Martial Rogue (no SA; gains Fighter feats) 3 or 4, then into Warshaper. Used a guisarme with trip feats, as well as Intimidating Strike and Imperious Command feats and Never Outnumbered skill trick. Warshaper gave him/her reach, crit immunity, a flat bonus to Str and Con....

So s/he had skills, lockdown ability via tripping and cowering, and once that +4 Con and crit immunity kicked in, was pretty sturdy, too. Made use of literally every stat except wisdom, though, not possible without good rolls or high point buy.

(Mixed pronoun use because I like my changelings to be of indeterminate gender.)

[TuggyNE]

How would you go about building a character that is both "tank" (frontline combat that can take a licking and also dish it out) and skill monkey (able to search, disable, open locks and all that good stuff)? Is it possible to do this well without being spread too thin?

inb4 Cloistered Cleric with Kobold and Trickery domains plus DMM:Persisting Divine Power etc.

But really, you're probably going to want casting to perform either of these to the fullest extent.

[Kane0]

Swordsage + Crusader? Or possible Swordsage + an Incarnum class?

ToB is nice in the way it still progresses Initiator level outside of initiator classes.

[gallagher]

How high of a level are we talking? Get a human cloistered who worships a concept and really hates kobolds (hence, you take the kobold domain. tenuous link, yes, but you can think up your own excuse), and you become a tank once you get 4th level spells.

kobold domain gets you trapfinding, cloistered gets you the skill points you need to invest in stuff

idk, worst case scenario i would make a bardsader

[LTwerewolf]

Can toss in a level or two of factotum.

[Jeff the Green]

A NG incarnate is basically this. Throw on a couple levels of crusader, maybe. There's an MoI/ToB theurge PrC lurking somewhere on the homebrew forum somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment.

Alternatively, a rogue/swordsage. Focus on Dexterity and miss chances, wield a spiked chain, and lock that **** down.

[prufock]

How high of a level are we talking? Get a human cloistered who worships a concept and really hates kobolds (hence, you take the kobold domain. tenuous link, yes, but you can think up your own excuse), and you become a tank once you get 4th level spells.

kobold domain gets you trapfinding, cloistered gets you the skill points you need to invest in stuff

Any level, really, but the sooner it's an effective combo the better. I'm really just surfing for ideas.

[eggs]

I'd go:
Human Trapfinding Ranger 1/Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 1/Warblade X
Feats: Darkstalker (1), Able Learner (Human), Extra Rage (3), Improved Trip (Barbarian 2), Combat Reflexes (Fighter 1), Knockdown (6), whatever (9+)

ACF stack on the Barb if you want, but it's probably not necessary.
No multiclass penalties, even if the rule's in place. So that's nice.

[Spuddles]

Dragonborn arctic mongrelfolk has +8con. Factotum with d8 HD and 22 con has nearly the same Avg hp as a dwarf barbarian with 18 con. if you put half minotaur on top of it, con jumps up to +14, but you lose int.

You could of course just stack int with faerie mysteries. That gets you int to hp. Factotum lets you trip, etc with int, so strength is less of a priority

[avr]

An Artificer could do it. They get trapfinding & the particular skills you're after, and with the right buffs, stats and items they can do melee.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=292794

Takes a while to pick up the tank thing, but it does!

[Amphetryon]

Swashbuckler 3/Incarnate 2/Warblade 5/Chameleon 10. Who do you want to be today?

[Wise Green Bean]

Factotum is quite good. As they are, they make excellent trippers. They can also give themselves a few buffs per day. d8 hitdie, so invest in some above average CON. And multiple times per day they can add their INT to their saves, like a limited, INT based divine grace.
Not to mention they are pretty much the best skill monkeys in the game.
So yeah. Out of combat he can use any skill with a fair to epic degree of proficiency, and in combat, he can buff himself with SLAs and UMD, then go in a knock over anyone who gets near him. And if someone(probably an archer, spell caster, or sneak) does actually land a hit on him, he'll live(though as mentioned, that gets a little dicey, good CON is a must).

[silverwolfer]

Am going to go a way diff way in suggesting something.


Human
Rogue 2 Levels
Cleric 3 Levels
ShadowBane Inquistor Complete Adventurer


Is a very nicely set up system, that gives you the ability to sneak in armor and reduce the penalties, also the only cleric friendly class, that has openlock and other skills, with very awesome fluff to help you make up a character.

[Rejakor]

I'll second the changeling idea.

Changeling Rogue 2/Crusader/Warshaper has that magical reach for Thicket of Blades and has decent skills with a high int.

You can go rogue 2/Swash X/crusader dip for thicket/warshaper if you really want lots of skills.

[roguemetal]

Factotum1/CloisteredCleric19

You get trapfinding, insight and knowledge bonuses, and access to ALL skills at first level. Take Able Learner and you're golden. Abuse DMM for the Cloistered Cleric, and you have the makings of a more than solid tank, assuming you don't suffer from MAD.

[Rejakor]

If you're going for a spellcaster build, going rogue2/wizard/crusader/spellsword/abjurant champion/incantatrix, focusing on utility spells like knock and instant locksmith etc, with the int focus of a wizard, works really well.

Alternatively, bard1/sorc/crusader/Abjurant Champion/Sublime Chord/more abjurant champion makes a killer gish, which can be set up as a tripper relatively easily, and has decent skills and skill-replacement-spells.

[Myrddin0001]

Just go straight up Factotum from Dungeonscape. It is the ultimate skill monkey and has extreme potential to be a tank. It's an all round epic class, I've played one several times.

[GoatBoy]

The barbarian ACF Trapkiller (Dungeonscape) lets you substitute Survival and attack rolls for Search and Disable Device checks when dealing with mechanical traps. You're still missing out on stealth and other important skills, but it's better than nothing if you're trying to fill a hole in your build.

Barbarian 3/Ranger 2/Deepwarden X (Races of Stone) gives plenty of skill points and class skills, and +Con to AC.

[Acidic]

I would either go:

1) Simplest: Straight Factotum 20, few feats on Fonts of Inspiration to keep that int to AC up almost all the time.

2) Moderately Optimized: Factotum for 1-4 levels, rest Warblade. At 1-2 Factotum levels, you get maneuvers 1 level late, and only 2 levels late if you choose 3-4 Factotum levels. Pick up Able Learner at level 1, and keep your skills up. Level 3 Factotum gives you Brains to Brawn, to get your int to str and dex skills. Pick up the feat Tactile trapsmith (lets you use dex for search and disable device), and BOOM! Dex and int for search, open lock, and disable device. You're better at traps than any rogue.

[prufock]

Thanks for all the responses! I am actually a big factotum fan. It's probably my favourite class.

[Arcanist]

Human Rogue 3/Swashbuckler X with Able Learner.

Replace Rogue with Factotum and instead of Swashbuckler go with Chameleon. Congratulations you may now buff yourself to to nigh invulnerability and are an able Skill Monkey :smallsmile:

If you want a more devoted tank go with Factotum/3 Something with a d12 hit die or something if you want to go through more mundane channels :smalltongue:

[prufock]

Stealth Focus is pretty limited; you get +2/+4 to the right skills, but they're all competence bonuses, and you don't have them as class skills.
I just realized the problem with this statement. Able Learner! Duh.

[ThiagoMartell]

Cloistered Cleric 1/Warblade 4/Chameleon 10/RKV 5 or something like that.

[prufock]

I'm going to add a new challenge!

How would you accomplish such a build if your only sources were core, Miniatures Handbook, and PHB2? Still doable?

[ThiagoMartell]

I'm going to add a new challenge!

How would you accomplish such a build if your only sources were core, Miniatures Handbook, and PHB2? Still doable?

Yeah. Beguiler gish.

[prufock]

Yeah. Beguiler gish.

Gishes are awesome. Got a build in mind?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Beguilers make terrible gishes, they don't have good buffing spells.

[ThiagoMartell]

Beguilers make terrible gishes, they don't have good buffing spells.

I used to think that way too, but then I played in a very restricted game with a Beguiler gish. They have expeditious retreat, mage armor, obscuring mist, blur, mirror image, see invisibility, spider climb, arcane sight, crown of veils, glibness, haste, invisibility, invisibility sphere and nondetection as buffs (up to level 3). Grab bladeweave from advanced learning, spam it.
My character specifically went into Dragon Disciple later. I just used my 3rd level spells over and over. It was pretty fun and I guess it would cut it in any low to mid OP game.

[prufock]

I used to think that way too, but then I played in a very restricted game with a Beguiler gish. They have expeditious retreat, mage armor, obscuring mist, blur, mirror image, see invisibility, spider climb, arcane sight, crown of veils, glibness, haste, invisibility, invisibility sphere and nondetection as buffs (up to level). Grab bladeweave from advanced learning, spam it.

How would something like Beguiler 6/Fighter (or Barb, or Ranger) 1/Eldritch Knight 10 fare? EK is the only real gishy prestige class in those sources.

BAB 14/9 at level 17, so I can afford to lose another point over my last 2 levels and still get all the iteratives.

CL 15, so I'm behind one level of spells. Not terrible, I'll still get my 9ths at level 20 if I don't lose any more. Tack on Beguiler levels 7 and 8, and then... hm, what for level 20? Need something with +1 BAB and +1 Spellcasting. Outside these sources you could grab Spellsword or Abjurant Champion or something (though if those were available Eldritch Knight would be kind of moot).

[nedz]

How would something like Beguiler 6/Fighter (or Barb, or Ranger) 1/Eldritch Knight 10 fare? EK is the only real gishy prestige class in those sources.

Well there is Havoc Mage.
Moving on now.

[prufock]

Well there is Havoc Mage.
Moving on now.
Three-quarters BAB and three-fifths spellcasting, getting neither at level 1? No thanks :)

[ThiagoMartell]

Three-quarters BAB and three-fifths spellcasting, getting neither at level 1? No thanks :)

That's why he said to move on :smalltongue:

[nedz]

Three-quarters BAB and three-fifths spellcasting, getting neither at level 1? No thanks :)

Well it does get to break the action economy, but yeah, like you said.
I only mentioned it because it is another Gish class from those source, even if not a good one.

[ThiagoMartell]

Rogue/Duskblade just kind of works, also.