Help with entry into Vassal of Bahamut PrC

[BowStreetRunner]

A while back I ran a backup character idea past my DM and he explained that in order to take the levels in Vassal of Bahamut that my build included, I would have to actually play through the encounter where the character must single-handedly slay a juvenile red dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#redDragon). Now my DM is not one to pull any punches with this sort of thing. If I go through with this, the DM will certainly do his best to put up a good fight.

So my request for the playground is to help me come up with a solid build that has a real chance to beat this CR 10 opponent without any outside help, and at as low a level as possible. The other requirements for the character are: LG, BAB+7, Craft (armorsmithing) 5 ranks, Diplomacy 5 ranks, Sacred Vow, Vow of Obedience.

This is a 28-point buy character. No setting-specific books are allowed (so no Eberron or Forgotten Realms), and Unearthed Arcana is banned. Otherwise most 3.5 books are available. Anything that ties in well thematically with a follower of Bahamut is a plus. Ultimately I will decide whether to go through with this or not based on how playable the overall build will be once the PrC is entered.

Edit 1: Oh, and gold should be standard for a character of the appropriate level.

[Sgt. Cookie]

3.0 and templates allowed?

If so, then become the host to a Dread Blossom Swarm. Read the story from my sig.

[BowStreetRunner]

3.0 and templates allowed?

If so, then become the host to a Dread Blossom Swarm. Read the story from my sig.

I'm not sure that is quite what I was looking for.

For race, from a thematic standpoint, either one of the Races of the Dragon races like Dragonborn of Bahamut, or perhaps one of the Dragon Magic races like Silverbrow Humans, or another draconic race like Dragonkin from the Draconomicon would be ideal. Of course, a solid racial choice doesn't have to be draconic, but I can't really see myself playing a Dread Blossom Swarm either.

As for classes, my initial expectation would be something martial, although I'm keeping an open mind and a gish build might be an alternative. While I don't know if it is reasonable to be able to pull this off by 7th level, I'd at least like to try to get in by 10th, which 3/4 BAB like cleric or rogue could certainly accomplish.

My first attempts all focused on the Crusader class, although I never found one I was confident could take a juvenile red dragon by 7th level or even 10th without party assistance.

[One Step Two]

Just a note for the dragonborn: talk to your DM first about the template, it strips alot of the versatility of anything you can bring to bare for the sake of otherwise moderate gains in terms of race. One thing we house ruled was making it a LA +1, and allowing you to keep your base racial abilities.

I'll post a build shortly for you that should be thematic.

Edit: While I am monkeying around with stats, and whatnot, have you seen the Platinum Knight Prc from Draconomicon at all? It's alot cleaner than the Vassal of Bahamut, but maintains much of the same flavour.

[Piggy Knowles]

Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 4. Use channel spell to charge your sword with shivering touch. Charge the dragon and whack it with said sword.

I'm sure it can be done by ECL 7 without too much work, but that was the easiest way I could think of. Requires making an Ordained Champion of Bahamut, as per the adaptation section on page 93 of Complete Champion.

[Medic!]

I always hated the "single-handedly" requirement to enter Vassal of Bahamut. Anything that requires you to side-line the rest of the party is just kind of....gross.

Unhelpful story-time:
When it was my turn to DM at our table, one of our players wanted to take Vassal of Bahamut. At our table we slant a lot of things in the player's favor, so I set up an elaborate session singling out each PC with a magical (read fiat) trip to the past to face their greatest regret as they are now. I won't go into the other players, because I would probably eat up the rest of the forum's database telling all the stories, but for our Vassal:

The player was a straight paladin, in his background his village was roasted by a red dragon when he was a child and he entered the Paladinhood to save others from a generically similar fate. When he approached the Altar of Regret he was taken back to the dragon's attack on his village. I'd like to say it was an epic battle, but he didn't even use his father's Frostbrand that I conviniently snuck within easy reach. He charged, smited, and in two rounds vanquished the Juvenile Red Dragon (as I recall he was around either level 6-7 or 10...been a while.) The player had some pretty respectable AC, the dragon had some bad rolls, and I played the dragon...less than optimally :smallamused: Meaning it blew its breath-weapon the round just before the paladin engaged, and it remained on the ground the entire time. When all was said and done I gave him his level in Vassal of Bahamut and let him have the hide for his armor, but no other treasure/encounter appropriate XP, etc.)

[One Step Two]

My apologies for the delay, but I realised I was running low on time and had to get to work.

Okay, while Piggy Knowles has given an excellent example, I wanted to shy away from the Shivering Touch route, because Lawful good types can be squeemish about taking out helpless foes, depending on how Noble you want your backstory to be.

So, for a Knight Errant, I give you

Silverbrow Human Fighter 1/ Paladin 6
If you have LA buyoff, I recommend getting the Draconic template from Races of the Dragon as well, for +1 LA, it has awesome benefits and synergy.

This build relies on some Dragon Magazine Material, so I hope thats cool.

Variants Used:
Domain Paladin (Dragon magazine 328), Giving up Turn Undead for a single Domain Granted ability, in this case, we want the Luck domain.
Drakkensteed Mount (Dragon Magic), Trade the normal Special Mount a paladin gets for a Drakkensteed, it has a fly speed, and is generally pretty neat.
Wyrmslayer Paladin (dragon magazine 332), replaces Know(nobility) with Know (arcana) and at 6th, instead of remove disease, it gives you Resist Energy 1/day

Feats:
Human: Mounted Combat
1st level: Ride by attack
Fighter 1: Spirited Charge
3rd level: Improved Initative
6th level:

I'm sure better optimiser than I can find something to do for you 6th level feat, I'd be tempted to add Celestial Mount from Book of Exalted Deeds, to give your mount a little more oomph, but if your DM is okay with it, Leadership, and have a cleric buff-o-matic.
oh, and once you get into Vassal, for the love of Bahamut, take the Holy Mount Feat from Dragon Magazine 325, so Paladin and Vassal stack for the sake of the mounts abilities.

WBL should be spent on:
+1 Dragonbane Lance (8000gp)
Masterwork Exotic Military Saddle (110gp, +2 circumstance to ride checks, +4 when trying to remain in saddle)
Armour of your choice, but I recommend Rhino's Hide from the DMG, for +2d6 damage on the charge. (5165gp)
As decent a shield as you want to spend the remainign GP on,
Several potions of Cure moderates, possibly kept in Potion Bladders (drow of the underdark)
A Potion of Bull's strength (or three)
There's a few other small things, but I am trying to avoid rambling.

The aim of this build is simple.
Using your Drakkensteed, you want to avoid remaining in the enemy dragon's threatened area, ride by attacks and spirited charges all the way.
With the build and a charisma of atleast 14, you should have 2 1st level spells per day, which you want to be Rhino's rush.
Using a Lance and Rhino's rush, you will deal 5x damage on a charge, (7x on a crit, remember, multipliers add, not stack)

So, with Strength 14 (18 after buffs) Your should be looking at:
Bab 7, +4 from strength, +2 from the charge, +3 weapon (Bane makes your weapon count as 2 higher vs dragons) for a total of +16 to hit.
Damage with Rhino's Rush and a Spirited charge nets you 1d8x5 + 35 + 2d6(bane) + 2d6 (Rhino's Hide Armour) for a total of : 44-99 damage

You can do this twice.

This may seem tricky, but with a 1/day Re-roll from the luck domain, you can make sure those Rhino's Rush attacks hit.

Otherwise you'll be dealing 1d8x3 + 21 + 4d6: 28-77 damage on a charge

Saving throws are your weak spot, the resist energy will only keep 10 points off you, a high level potion of resist energy is a better bet, but if you want to give yourself a better chance, replace the 1 level of fighter with 1 level of ranger for good reflex saves, and Favoured Enemy (dragons) for 2 more damage against them per hit, but lose 1 feat, and 2 Hp for it.
As a note: Wyrmslayer Paladin can cross-class with Rangers who have Favoured enemy (dragons), so it's definetly worth considering.

Edit: Some notes on Rangers
If I recall correctly, there's another variant for Ranger 1 that lets you skip getting an animal companion at level 4th, to get your Favoured enemy bonus to damage as a to-hit bonus as well, Dragon Magazine 347.
Good skills, and the fact that it too is a divine casting class, so it should count for Holy Mount as well, so your steed wont miss a thing.

Strategy and notes:
Ride: maxed out at all times, your ability to make a ride check as the AC for your mount can be super handy to avoid big nasty damage.
The aim of the game here is to ride-by-attack, and keep going past it, because you no-longer threaten while doing so, and charge charge charge.
If it charges you, smite, and get the hell away from it, staying in full attack range is so silly, I don't even need to point out the dangers.
Do not forget the feats your mount gets from paladin advancement, things like flyover, dodge and mobility are all very good for them.

Extra extra note: your mount can attack too, put that 23 Strength to work!

[BowStreetRunner]

I actually hadn't thought of a mounted character build. The whole 'single-handedly" thing had me figuring a mount, animal companion, cohort, etc. would not be allowed. But now I am not sure.

I am thinking it all depends on how the DM would interpret these additions. A cohort might be a hard sell, but a mount or animal companion might not be to difficult.

You've given me something to think about. Thanks.

[One Step Two]

I actually hadn't thought of a mounted character build. The whole 'single-handedly" thing had me figuring a mount, animal companion, cohort, etc. would not be allowed. But now I am not sure.

I am thinking it all depends on how the DM would interpret these additions. A cohort might be a hard sell, but a mount or animal companion might not be to difficult.

You've given me something to think about. Thanks.

You're a paladin, your mount is a class feature, it's part of what makes you.
Besides, who's ever heard of a Dragon-slaying knight who doesn't have a trusty steed? Just because your steed happens to be a twelve-foot long dragon horse isn't your fault!

[MarsRendac]

Unless the mount is disallowed, I'd go with One Step Two's build. As for a 6th level feat, Luck Devotion from Complete Champion just might be a dandy, as Luck is one of Bahamut's domains. It's a swift action, lasts for 10 rounds, and prevents your damage rolls from ever being below average. Given this build, that's pretty damn big, plus it could easily make the difference between a massive damage save (which he has a decent 20% chance of failing) and none. In any case, one of you is bound to die before the effect is over. :smallcool:

[One Step Two]

It never really occured to me that the mount might be disallowed, yes yes, unaided, I get it. While the exercise is to make a character who wanted to enter the Vassal of Bahamut class, what then for the player who made a mount-specialized character through normal play? They'd never really see their mount as much more than part of their build, to have the DM insist that the mount counts as having help seems somewhat inane.

[BowStreetRunner]

...to have the DM insist that the mount counts as having help seems somewhat inane.

I haven't actually posed this question to my DM yet. But it sounds like the kind of thing that could go either way (in fact, I've seen the playground argue both sides of issues that seemed a lot less ambiguous than this). Which would you think are okay within the 'single-handedly' reqirement?


Mount..........A mounted character, particularly one with feats invested in mounted combat, would seem fairly justified in asserting that this should be considered an extension of the PC. But there are a some pretty powerful mounts out there that could make the DM think twice.
Animal Companion..........An animal companion may be a little more independent than a paladin's warhorse in most cases, but some druids and rangers use these as mounts too. Where do you draw the line? Or is there even a line to draw, as you can easily argue that this is an extension of the PC, regardless of whether it is used as a mount.
Familiar..........Okay, this one I think goes without saying in the minds of most people. The DM would have to be a pretty big chump to deny a familiar.
Summoned Creature..........If your shtick happens to be summoning, then I would think that you should be allowed to use it. However, there are some pretty powerful creatures you can summon (or call) that could push this over the edge of reasonable.
Cohort..........Whether it is from the Leadership feat or one of the other Cohort feats, players would argue that the feat makes this an integral part of the PC. I still don't think a DM would be wrong to disallow this.
Follower..........For someone with the Leadership feat, could you really argue that a follower is an extension of the PC? I doubt many DMs would buy this one.
Hireling..........I would say absolutely no. The restriction cannot just apply to PCs but to NPCs as well.

[One Step Two]

I haven't actually posed this question to my DM yet. But it sounds like the kind of thing that could go either way (in fact, I've seen the playground argue both sides of issues that seemed a lot less ambiguous than this). Which would you think are okay within the 'single-handedly' reqirement?


Mount..........A mounted character, particularly one with feats invested in mounted combat, would seem fairly justified in asserting that this should be considered an extension of the PC. But there are a some pretty powerful mounts out there that could make the DM think twice.



I think for this instance there's three factors to consider:
1: How your DM view the Tier system, the Paladin's special mount is part of it's overall class build, it's very much similar to denying a Wizard their Third level spells.
2: How deeply the character is invested into the mount, taking the above example of the wizard, it's like taking away their spellbook. But worse, because all your feats were related to the mount, this is more relevant to say a fighter, who may have bought a mount and trained it, because the feats are all you got.
3: Relative power of the mount. You're right in that the DM may not be quite so willing to call the mount a part of the character when it can out-shine the rider, it's a fine line. Warhorse? No problem. Drakkensteed? Pushing it. Dire Lion, "It does what on a charge!?"




Animal Companion..........An animal companion may be a little more independent than a paladin's warhorse in most cases, but some druids and rangers use these as mounts too. Where do you draw the line? Or is there even a line to draw, as you can easily argue that this is an extension of the PC, regardless of whether it is used as a mount.



Yeah, this one is dicey, the animal companion of a druid, isn't very important, because, the Druid is a damned druid, that's about as much point as I need to make. For the Ranger, it's the same line as above, how invested is the character into it, and relative power. Got a Panther? Cool. A Fleshraker...




Familiar..........Okay, this one I think goes without saying in the minds of most people. The DM would have to be a pretty big chump to deny a familiar.



Improved familiar and other Therugic mount shenanigans aside, yeah, it's a Familiar, not gonna see combat if the owner can help it




Summoned Creature..........If your shtick happens to be summoning, then I would think that you should be allowed to use it. However, there are some pretty powerful creatures you can summon (or call) that could push this over the edge of reasonable.



Uuugh, yeah, look, it's your character spells that are enabling you to fight this thing, that's as technically true as you need it to be. It would really depend on the player, and what they were doing. If they are spamming celestial Badgers, then you can't say much, but if they're gate'ing in Solars, then they're over the line.




Cohort..........Whether it is from the Leadership feat or one of the other Cohort feats, players would argue that the feat makes this an integral part of the PC. I still don't think a DM would be wrong to disallow this.
Follower..........For someone with the Leadership feat, could you really argue that a follower is an extension of the PC? I doubt many DMs would buy this one.
Hireling..........I would say absolutely no. The restriction cannot just apply to PCs but to NPCs as well.


Yeah, Leadership, and it's ilk, that's help, NPC assistance, no matter what level is still assistance. Thrall Herd might be an exception, but other than some serious cheese, I really cant see leadership being "crucial" to the balance of a character class's over all effectiveness.