Quick Fixes: Bite-Sized Revisions for Your Favorite Classes

[Lonely Tylenol]

Good morning, Playground!

I've been thinking (a dangerous pastime) about the nature of 3.0/3.5/P for awhile, and the fact that, with the exception of Pathfinder, there really hasn't been official content released for this game in five years. This has led to two things invariably being true: first, by way of experience, the median level of system mastery with third edition and offshoots can only increase as time passes (and a lot of time has passed since the last official release), and second, by way of necessity, revisions and updates are constantly happening in the way of nerfs, buffs, fixes, and homebrew content. Often, this involves increasingly convoluted mechanics, subsystems, and elaborate schemes for world domination creating a more comfortable class balance for the player, but recently I've been asking myself:

Why not go simple, instead?

The spirit and intent of this thread, which is build on that principle, is thus:

You may suggest any fix, buff, nerf, revision of a class feature, class, ability, spell, spell system, item, and so on... But you must do so in few enough characters that you can tweet it. Ideally, these revisions will happen on a smaller scale, affecting a single aspect of a single class or feature as opposed to a broad, sweeping change that is grossly oversimplified for the purposes of meeting the character limit (so "ban all tier 1, 2, and 6 classes" would be against the spirit of the thing). These can either be revisions of existing mechanics (such as changes to the way a class's spellcasting works) or an entirely homebrewed change, but cannot exceed this character limit. The culmination of this will, hopefully, be a set of simple revisions which can be referred back to in the future, and give people quick and easy options for how they can change something that isn't working in the future.

I'll start:

(Duskblade/Healer buff) The Duskblade and Healer know every spell on their list of every level which they can cast and can spontaneously cast them, as the Beguiler. (140 characters)

(Warlock buff) At 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a Warlock learns a blast shape or eldritch essence in addition to their normal invocations known. (138 characters)

(Monk buff) Starting at 8th level, a Monk can make a full attack action (but not a flurry of blows) as a standard action. (109 characters)

(Fighter buff) The Zhentarim Fighter alternative class feature is rolled into the standard Fighter loadout. (92 characters)

Your turn, Playground! What suggestions (large or small) can you make in less than a tweet's space?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ranger (buff): Rangers who select two weapon fighting combat style add their full strength bonus to both weapons ()7 characters)

[Curmudgeon]

Rogues gain Camouflage at level 14 and Hide in Plain Sight at level 20, a la Ranger, but not limited to natural terrain. (120 characters)

[Dusk Eclipse]

Isn't that a too late? I mean you can get (SU) Hide in plain sight as early as ECL (Dark Template from Cormyr) or more likely at ECL 6 (Shadow Dancer) with some heavy investment or ECL 13 (Assassin) with little investment.

[Saidoro]

Might I suggest a table?
{table=head]Class|Buff/Nerf|Change
Duskblade|Buff|The Duskblade knows every spell on their list of every level which they can cast and can spontaneously cast them, as the Beguiler
Healer|Buff|The Healer knows every spell on their list of every level which they can cast and can spontaneously cast them, as the Beguiler
Warlock|Buff|At 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a Warlock learns a blast shape or eldritch essence in addition to their normal invocations known.
Monk|Buff|Starting at 8th level, a Monk can make a full attack action (but not a flurry of blows) as a standard action.
Fighter|Buff|The Zhentarim Fighter alternative class feature is rolled into the standard Fighter loadout.
Ranger|Buff|Rangers who select two weapon fighting combat style add their full strength bonus to both weapons.
Rogue|Buff|Rogues gain Camouflage at level 14 and Hide in Plain Sight at level 20, a la Ranger, but not limited to natural terrain.
Ranger|Buff|Rangers gain both two-weapon and ranged specializations
Ranger|Buff|Rangers can take battle blessing and apply it to their ranger spells
Monk|Buff|Monks gain skirmish as a scout of their level
Monk|Buff|Monks Gain Full BaB.
Monk|Buff|Monks can enchant their skin and unarmed strikes as though they were masterwork armor and weapons.
Fighter|Buff|Fighters get 6+int Skill points and can add any 4 skills to their class list.
Fighter|Buff|At third level Fighters become proficient with all Exotic Weapons
Fighter|Buff|Fighters gain weapon aptitude as warblade
Fighter|Buff|Fighters add half their fighter level to their ability scores for the purpose of meeting feat prequisites
Paladin|Buff|Paladins gain good will saves
Paladin|Buff|Paladins gain turn undead at 3rd level rather than 4th[/table]
This is kind of fun.

[Menteith]

Dragon Shaman - At level 8, a Dragon Shaman may have two Auras projected at the same time. This improves to 3 Auras active at 16th level.

[Amnestic]

Dragonfire Adept - Double invocations, Dragon Shaman auras, free Draconic feat every 4-5 levels. Explicitly qualify for metabreath feats.

137 characters! :p

[Piggy Knowles]

Fighter: At level 12, fighters may select martial Epic feats in place of fighter feats, ignoring level or skill based requirements. (122 chars)

[Zdrak]

Fighter [buff] All Fighters are mechanically Warblades

Paladin [buff] All Paladins are mechanically Crusaders

Monk [buff] All Monks are mechanically Swordsages

On a more serious note:

Paladin [buff] Smite Evil is per encounter instead per day

Warlock [buff] new invocation each level; +1d6 Eldritch Blast each odd level

[eggs]

Ranger/Paladin/Spellthief/Hexblade: Bard's spontaneous casting, spells known, and spell per day progression. (Paladins keyed off Cha). [98 characters]

Dragon Shaman: Bard's spontaneous casting, spells known and spell per day mechanic. Sorcerer spell list, Charisma-based. [105 characters]

Divine Mind: Extra Mantle at level 1, steal the Psychic Rogue's PP and Powers Known progression. Manifesting is Charisma-based. [114 characters]

Monk/Soulknife: Steal the Psychic Rogue's PP and Power Known progression. (Monk:PsyWar spell list, Wisdom-based; Soulknife: PsyRogue power list, Int-based.) [140 characters]

Soulborn: Full meldshaper level, Totemist-rate Soulmeld/Essentia/bind progression (no Totem bind). [88 characters]

[nedz]

Ranger's Combat Style feats can be any related Fighter feats. [63 chars]

Wizard's don't get Scribe Scroll or any bonus feats. [52 chars]

[hisnamehere]

- All classes: Add Knowledge (Local) as a class skill. (52 characters!)

- Rgr: Able to choose specific classes as Favored Enemies.

- Rgr: Able to choose your own race as a Favored Enemy, regardless of alignment.

- Rgr: Gains Speak Language as a class skill with all Favored Enemies.

- Rog: Gain Knowledge (Dungeoneering) as a class skill.

- Bbn: Gain Knowledge (History) as a class skill, representing their oral storytelling tradition.

- Clr: Lose Armor Proficiency (Heavy). (36 characters!)

- Drd: Gain Knowledge (Geography) as a class skill.

- Drd: Does not provoke attacks of opportunity for attacking unarmed.

- If you gain an ability from a 2nd source, you add ½ of the lowest bonus to the highest bonus to determine your total bonus with the ability. (140 characters!)

- Fighting Defensively & Total Defense grants a save bonus (+2 or +4) to a single save type chosen at the time of action, until you next turn. (140 characters!)

- Familiars’ abilities are determined by character level, not class level.

- All spell saves are DC 10 + 1/2 Caster level + spellcasting ability modifier.

- Shield bonuses to AC should count vs. touch and ranged touch attacks.

- Deflect Arrows: If you beat the DC of the Ref save for the feat by 10 or more, you can choose to catch the missile.

- Disarm: If you beat the DC of a disarm attempt, you can choose to catch the weapon with a free hand.

- Initiative: You gain a bonus to Initiative equal to your Wis modifier, rather than your Dex modifier.

[TuggyNE]

Adapted from RACSD (:smalltongue:):
Swordsage [b]: AC Bonus applies in either light or no armor.

DN [n]: Fear Aura lasts one round/level.
Scarlet Corsair [n]: Frightening Lunge lasts one round/level.


- Rgr: Able to choose your own race as a Favored Enemy, regardless of alignment.

I believe that's already the case in 3.5.


- Drd: Does not provoke attacks of opportunity for attacking unarmed.

I don't understand the point of this. Natural weapons don't provoke AoOs anyway, and a druid who specializes in actual unarmed strikes will presumably take Improved Unarmed Strike, which also removes AoOs.


- All spell saves are DC 10 + 1/2 Caster level + spellcasting ability modifier.

Wait, why remove Heighten Spell?

[hisnamehere]

I believe that's already the case in 3.5.

Possibly. I've seen 'Arcanists' before, but nothing other. Just a short tweek that I like.


I don't understand the point of this. Natural weapons don't provoke AoOs anyway, and a druid who specializes in actual unarmed strikes will presumably take Improved Unarmed Strike, which also removes AoOs.

But that costs a (valuable) feat. Just a flavorful ability. Seems that if a druid gains proficiency in "all natural attacks", that should also include her natural form's natural attacks, i.e. fists. But giving the druid a complete free feat when the druid is stacked already seems overboard. Therefore, a toned-down version of Imp Unarmed Strike is what I like.


Wait, why remove Heighten Spell?

I guess it would. I just don't like the idea of spells never increasing in save DC regardless of the caster's caster level. E.g. A 20th level wizard's sleep spell should be harder to save against than a first level caster's.

Right?

[TuggyNE]

I guess it would. I just don't like the idea of spells never increasing in save DC regardless of the caster's caster level. E.g. A 20th level wizard's sleep spell should be harder to save against than a first level caster's.

Generally speaking, it is, if only because of ability score increases and so on. (Moving from 18 Int to 30+ is not unknown.) I don't think it's worthwhile to buff casters like this, when approximately the same trend already exists in a limited form.

[Zdrak]

Ranger: Can use Knowledge: Nature against favored enemies regardless of creature type.

(It always ticked me that a ranger who takes Favored Enemy: Undead doesn't actually know anything about Undead)

Barbarian: can use Balance when raging (5 words)

Cleric: no DMM (2 words, 5 letters!)

[Saidoro]

Cleric: no DMM (2 words, 5 letters!)

I object to this one. DMM does have legitimate uses, it's just when you use it with persist, quicken or irresistible that it becomes broken.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Actually I think the problem with DMM is how easy it is to get a stupidly high amount of turn attempts , an ACF plus a dip into a pretty neat prestige class gives you 6+ (cha*2) attempts, easily enough for 2 persisted spells which isn't as bad; but add in an Extra Turning feat? 8 more turn attempts add in nightsticks? 4 or even 8 (depending on the reading) more attempts. Nevermind that is stupidly easy to get more pools which are all affected by Extra turning (which BTW you can select more than once).

[MesiDoomstalker]

General: Iterative attacks are gained at the same progression but only take a cumulative -2 penalty.

After trying to count those characters, I realize how bad my attention span is. Anyone care to tell me if I made the character limit? I think I did...

[Zdrak]

Actually I think the problem with DMM is how easy it is to get a stupidly high amount of turn attempts , an ACF plus a dip into a pretty neat prestige class gives you 6+ (cha*2) attempts, easily enough for 2 persisted spells which isn't as bad; but add in an Extra Turning feat? 8 more turn attempts add in nightsticks? 4 or even 8 (depending on the reading) more attempts. Nevermind that is stupidly easy to get more pools which are all affected by Extra turning (which BTW you can select more than once).
Which brings me to another fix I always wanted to try:

You number of Turn Undead attempts is limited to your character level.
[[ A level 6 cleric is limited to 6 turn undead attempts , regardless of feats or nightstick schenanigans. Still allows ultimate power at high levels, but high levels are powerful anyway. At least it keeps tabs on low- to mid-level clerics]]

[WarKitty]

Druid: No "natural spell." ACF replace wild shape with bonus hybrid forms that allow casting.

All: Point blank shot and precise shot no longer exist. Are assumed with proficency.

[Bakkan]

Classes
Sorcerer (buff): Gains spell levels at the same rate as the Wizard
Sorcerer (buff): Uses the Favored Soul's spells known table
Swordsage (buff): Gains Adaptive Style as a bonus feat at 1st level
Druid (nerf): Choose two of Wildshape, spellcasting, or animal companion
Ranger (buff): Gain both Combat Style feats at 2nd, 6th, and 12th level rather than just one
Monk (buff): Has full BAB, can Flurry as a standard action
Warlock (buff): Eldrtich blast continues its +1d6/2 levels progression for the entire class progression
Paladin (buff): Gain Battle Blessing as a bonus feat at 4th level

Races
Elves (buff): Have -2 Strength instead of -2 Con
Half-Elves (buff): Gain a bonus feat a la Human
Half-Orcs (buff): Gain +2 Con

Game Mechanics
Multiclassing (buff): Multiclassing penalties do not exist
Metamagic (nerf): Metamagic mitigation cannot reduce the adjustment of any individual metamagic feat to lower than +0

[toapat]

Monk Buff: Monks are now proficient with Unarmed Strikes, Noose Proficiency


Paladin Buff: Smite Evil Applies to all attacks upto your next turn, Casting attribute of Charisma

[TuggyNE]

Monk Buff: Monks are now proficient with Unarmed Strikes, Noose Proficiency

OK, the chutzpah behind this little bit of snark is rather admirable. Still, doesn't quite fit most of the rest of the list?

[nedz]

Favoured Souls get Domains (26 chars)
By RAW Favoured Souls can't even cast spells from their deities domains, which is counter intuitive. If anything this should be the other way around.

Metamagic Reducers do not exist (31 chars)

[Gwendol]

TWF feat grants an off-hand attack also on standard action (58 chars)

Monk FoB is a standard action attack (36 chars)

Casting defensively is not an option (36 chars)

[roguemetal]

(Mechanic Change) No one free action can be used more than once a round. (54)

(Mechanic Change) Costs to craft an item using Metamagic are doubled. (51)

(Mechanic Change) PrCs must be completed before entering a new PrC. (49)

[sdream]

All classes: After every 8 hour rest, can exchange one feat, skill point, or class feature (such as spell known) for another they qualify for.

Prepared Casters: Spells are prepared as normal, but only one can change per day as above.

[Curmudgeon]

(Mechanic Change) No one free action can be used more than once a round. (54)
This is a terrible idea.
When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action

[Wyntonian]

(Mechanic Change) PrCs must be completed before entering a new PrC. (49)

Um. Why? the hell?

[SimonMoon6]

Fighter - Buff - Get Spell Resistance 20 at 10th level, +1 SR each level after

Wizard - Nerf - All are specialists who can't cast spells/use items unless spell is from their school of specialty.

Sorcerer - Nerf - No sorcerers. Or when using items, they treat their class spell list as the spells they actually know.

Cleric - Nerf/Buff - Their class spell list consists purely of their domain spells which can be cast as normal spells. Extra domain at 10th&20th level.

Paladin - Nerf/Buff - There are no paladins, only multi-class fighter/clerics.

[Scots Dragon]

All Classes: Iterative attacks incur no to-hit penalties. At all.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Fighter - Buff - Get Spell Resistance 20 at 10th level, +1 SR each level after

Wizard - Nerf - All are specialists who can't cast spells/use items unless spell is from their school of specialty.

Sorcerer - Nerf - No sorcerers. Or when using items, they treat their class spell list as the spells they actually know.

Cleric - Nerf/Buff - Their class spell list consists purely of their domain spells which can be cast as normal spells. Extra domain at 10th&20th level.

Paladin - Nerf/Buff - There are no paladins, only multi-class fighter/clerics.


There is a difference between a nerf and soft-banning by making unusable.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I still don't see reason why to ban/nerf wizards, the problem with wizard isn't that he gets bonus feats every 5 levels... the problem is that some of the spells he gets are game-breakers.

Mostly the same with Clerics and to a lesser degree druids. I am pretty sure they would still be very powerful with only Wildshape (unchanged) and Animal companion, definitely not tier 1 material; but possibly a really strong tier 3 class.

[Zdrak]

There is a difference between a nerf and soft-banning by making unusable.

You'd be surprised, but a wizard who casts only conjuration spells is still plenty usable.

[Sgt. Cookie]

@Dusk Eclipse: Unless I'm mistaken, Wild Shape on it's own is Tier 3. Anyway some of my own.

Sorcerer: All Sorcerers are Battle Sorcerers, but don't loose spells known/per day and gain a Wiz/Ftr Bonus Feat every 4 levels. (99 Characters)


Ranger: Favoured Enemy: Humanoid no longer requires a subtype. Aberrations are a blanket choice, but Humanoid is not?

[danzibr]

Can't believe nobody said these...

Soulknife (buff): full BAB, + total weapon bonus = level/2 round up.

Bard (buff): music uses/day = Cha modifier + lvl.

[Gwendol]

Knight: DC for Knight's challenges scale with Knight level (not /2).

[Piggy Knowles]

General Spell Nerf: All polymorph spells (incl Alter Self, PAO & shapechange) can only change you into one form, chosen at start of day or when spell is prepared. (142 chars - I was close!)

[roguemetal]

(Mechanic Change) No one free action can be used more than once a round. (54)

This is a terrible idea.
Would you please indulge me by explaining why? I haven't seen any reason to use the same free action more than once a round unless you plan on either A) creating an infinite loop or B) making a speech during the course of what is supposed to be 6 seconds.

[God Imperror]

(Mechanic Change) No one free action can be used more than once a round. (54)

Would you please indulge me by explaining why? I haven't seen any reason to use a free action twice a round unless you plan on either A) creating an infinite loop or B) making a speech during the course of what is supposed to be 6 seconds.

Or you are planning on drawing arrows more than once a round.

(as curmudgeon pointed)

[Piggy Knowles]

(Mechanic Change) No one free action can be used more than once a round. (54)

Would you please indulge me by explaining why? I haven't seen any reason to use the same free action more than once a round unless you plan on either A) creating an infinite loop or B) making a speech during the course of what is supposed to be 6 seconds.

Eh, there's some silliness to be done with Sleight of Hand, which allows you to take a -20 penalty to the check to perform it as a free action. But I'd rather see that changed to a swift action than see the entire rules around free actions re-done.

[toapat]

OK, the chutzpah behind this little bit of snark is rather admirable. Still, doesn't quite fit most of the rest of the list?

The first half is that monks gain Natural Weapon Proficiency, the second half is the joke, which i think you got confused about.

[WarKitty]

Druid (nerf): No wild shape

Wild shape ranger: This is now its own class, focused on shapechanging.

[Zdrak]

Or you are planning on drawing arrows more than once a round.

(as curmudgeon pointed)
Easily fixed with:

[general] When attacking with a bow, drawing an arrow is part of the attack action

[Kane0]

Casting - Nerf - To use spell of level 4-6 you need spell focus in that school. Levels 7-9 requires greater spell focus.

Melee - Buff - Full attack is standard action, but you can only perform one other action that round (Move or swift).

Paladin - Buff - one smite lasts one round, not one attack

Fighter - Buff - get extra 1d4 per round per 4 levels to use on any d20 roll

Warlock - Buff - EB progresses at 1d6/2 levels. Blasts can be iterative without shapes/essences. More invocations.

Archery - Buff - Compress all archery feats down to less than half a dozen.

TWF - Buff - Compress all TWF feats down to less than half a dozen.

Shields - Add Str bonus to AC instead of Dex. Max Dex turns into max Str.

Paladin - Casting is Cha based

[Piggy Knowles]

Casting Nerf: All casters only go up to 6th lvl spells as bard. Create ritual versions of iconic hi-lvl spells w/ long cast times, multiple participants, &c. (143 characters)

[Zdrak]

[general] TWF automatically grants ITWF/GTWF when eligible.
[general] Shield bonus applies to touch AC & opposed rolls vs trip, disarm, bull rush & “reflex half” saves

[Curmudgeon]

Easily fixed with:

[general] When attacking with a bow, drawing an arrow is part of the attack action
No, that doesn't solve the problem. You have addressed bows. Now what about other ammunition (crossbow bolts, shuriken, & c.), and the Quick Draw feat with throwing daggers, javelins, darts, or any number of other ranged weapons?

Restricting free actions causes lots of problems, so what exactly is improved by this change? While I've seen all sorts of things this breaks, I have yet to see anything it fixes. What's the aim here?

[GoatBoy]

Taking a metamagic feat requires you to be able to cast unmodified spells of the level equal to the feat's spell level increase.

Fighters may ignore any stat prerequisites for [Fighter] feats.

Lurks gain Search and Disable Device as class skills, and the trapfinding ability.

Soulborn gains about 50% more essentia, soulmelds, chakra binds per level.

All classes gain 4+int skill points per level, minimum.

Natural Spell is now a metamagic feat.

Swashbuckler receives [Fighter] feat every 4 levels.

Spellthief/Shadowcaster receive bonus spells/mysteries from high Intelligence.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Duelist (DMG), Buff: Canny Dodge: AC bonus is not restricted by your level.

Duelist (DMG), Buff: Canny Dodge: A Monk may use this ability unarmed.

[Arkanist]

Mechanic Fix: Task based prereqs mandatory for PRCs.
Wizard Nerf: Ban orb spells.
Warmage Buff: Base warm age edge off CHA.
AA buff: Give 1/2 caster progression.

[Fable Wright]

Fighter: Move the level requirement for ACFs up one level, with Zhentarim in the chassis. (Dungeoncrasher for level 3 & 7 class features, etc.)

Druids: They are now Wildshape Rangers.

Cleric: They become Adepts with Turn Undead or Paladins, player's choice.

Wizards: You are a (non-focused) specialist who banned everything but Conjuration, Transmutation, or two other schools of choice.

Paladins: Smite Evil is uses per encounter. Spellcasting is based off Charisma. You're also a Mystic Fire Knight with Battle Blessing.

[Kazyan]

Wu Jen: No Core spells on spell list. Spells are known and cast as the Beguiler. Expand Spell Secret metamagics to all +0 or +1 metamagics.

(140 characters.)

[Gigas Breaker]

Swordsage: Adaptive Style is a level one bonus feat. Swordsages choose which 6 disciplines they get access to at 1st level.

[Kesnit]

Mechanic Fix: Task based prereqs mandatory for PRCs.

What do you mean? :smallredface: :smallconfused:

[Chambers]

Ninja: Ki Powers are used per encounter not per day. Ki Pool refills after 5 minutes rest. Replace all mentions of Sudden Strike with Sneak Attack.

[MesiDoomstalker]

What do you mean? :smallredface: :smallconfused:

Basically adding some kind of RP, specific challenge to enter a PrC. Some PrCs have this already. The one off the top of my head is Master of Masks which says you have to impersonate a person, fooling even their friends and relatives, for a set period before you can take the class. Arkanist simply suggested all PrCs get one of these. Which I don't think does anything but become bothersome to take PrCs. If your build is qualified to enter the class sans task requirement, the task should be rather simple for your skill set.

[Namfuak]

*Paladin removal addendum - Paladin is no longer a base class, instead use Prestige Paladin.

[Talionis]

For all classes and prestige classes: For every level you do not advance casting you gain a bonus feat. If you already gain a bonus feat at that level you gain an additional bonus feat.

[Aricandor]

Shadowcasters: Double mysteries learned on each level.

[TuggyNE]

For all classes and prestige classes: For every level you do not advance casting you gain a bonus feat. If you already gain a bonus feat at that level you gain an additional bonus feat.

That ... only has a limited effect on game balance, and suffers from massive feat overload. :smallsigh: (Also, what bonus feats do Rogue levels grant?)

[Dusk Eclipse]

DM (Buff) If I am afraid of casters breaking my game, I’ll ask my players to play nice. 88 characters:smallannoyed:

Seriously guys, all this nerfs to casters aren't needed if you talk to your players before the game starts, assuming of course said players aren't jerks.

[Lans]

That ... only has a limited effect on game balance, and suffers from massive feat overload. :smallsigh: (Also, what bonus feats do Rogue levels grant?)

My issue is that it buffs warblades and not paladins or rangers. Otherwise it kind of sets the bar to tier 4 with commoner maybe not making up that far. Unless monsters hd counts as class levels in which case the party is a bit screwed.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Actualy, since Paladin's and Ranger's caster level is equal to half class level, this could mean that you gain a bonus feat every other level.

[toapat]

Actualy, since Paladin's and Ranger's caster level is equal to half class level, this could mean that you gain a bonus feat every other level.

with a 3 level island Beachhead of bonus feats

[Curmudgeon]

That ... only has a limited effect on game balance, and suffers from massive feat overload. :smallsigh: (Also, what bonus feats do Rogue levels grant?)
I doubt it's possible to get "feat overload", given the literally thousands of feats available in the game. The obvious intent is to give non-spellcasters something extra in order to level the playing field somewhat. I would assume Rogue bonus feats are any that they qualify for, as usual.

[toapat]

I doubt it's possible to get "feat overload"

Fighter//Feat Rogue gestalt would like to talk to you

[Curmudgeon]

Fighter//Feat Rogue gestalt would like to talk to you
Should I make a list of the feats I'd choose, and the dozens of others I'd also like to have, then? As I stated, there are thousands of feats available in the game.

[Zetapup]

Fighter (Buff): Fighters can take any feat for their fighter bonus feat.
Rogue (Buff): Rogues gain a bonus feat every four levels.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I think the point they are getting at is that despite the number, the quality of these feats are questionable. Naturally, the most useful feats will be taken immediately, as soon as they are available. Then, your left with "well that was fun, anything else worth it?" and the answer is a resounding "Nope."

In that same vein, every build will start looking similar. All Rogues would have room for Darkstalker, everyone would have Weapon Focus in their preferred weapon, etc. All the good feats, that are desperately squeezed into most builds, will fall into every build. It's no longer a difficult choice of this or that, its a easy choice of now or later.

[TuggyNE]

I think the point they are getting at is that despite the number, the quality of these feats are questionable. Naturally, the most useful feats will be taken immediately, as soon as they are available. Then, your left with "well that was fun, anything else worth it?" and the answer is a resounding "Nope."

Pretty much this, yeah. (See also: Exalted feats and VoP.)

Also, the increased number of feat slots means that many more choices to make between thousands of feats, which tends to increase choice overload to some extent.

Basically, while it's not the worst thing ever, it a) doesn't fix balance (though in some cases it improves it somewhat); b) has some significant negative side effects; and c) has odd and imbalancing interactions with partial caster base classes. Overall, I'd call it a wash, and houserules that have no net positive effect aren't good design.

[Talionis]

First off, I'm glad I got everyone talking about feats and non-casters.

Limitations on the number of feats is really really overrated. Almost no feats affect action economy, so at best you can only do so much in one round.

Feats have long chains and often completing even one of those feat chains makes you a very narrow character. Because of action economy, feats really don't get out of hand.

People don't get "Spell Overload," from having thousands of Spells to choose from, in fact Wizards relish their choices. Why would people get feat overload. Heck people might actually find some fun combinations, but they won't be more broken than Pun Pun.

On the Ranger/Paladin, I actually meant for them to get a few extra feats, neither are in a tier that makes them dangerous they only get a couple extra. Paladins would just be a little more interesting. Bards wouldn't get more feats, since they get spells on every level. This will change some classes and make some better than they are now, but not better than tier three ish.

Having more feats wont allow you to do anything you couldn't do before only this and that. Giving characters that gain their power from feats more options makes them more versatile and more fun to play. It also doesn't push you over tier three or so.

Having a feat a level would be like any other Spellcaster always getting access to new spells every level. In general spells are still more powerful and spells still get progressively more powerful as level increases, while feats really don't get too much more powerful.

It's a joke if you don't think with the very few feats even a fighter gets, that only a small percentage of feats ever get used. Yes, every rogue would probably take Darkstalker, but now you might see more builds include Arterial Strike because they can actually fit some combination into their build that they think is useful on top of the strongest possible feats. Having more feats will only increase variance not narrow it. People could take more feats for Role Play without self nerfing.

Its already been Beta tested since E6 hardly breaks because characters get endless feats.

Some feats might need level requirements because you would get access to them earlier. But really, this would not raise non-casters a tier above casters, but it would make for a lot more choices in building and playing non-casters.

[toapat]

Its already been Beta tested since E6 hardly breaks because characters get endless feats.

Some feats might need level requirements because you would get access to them earlier. But really, this would not raise non-casters a tier above casters, but it would make for a lot more choices in building and playing non-casters.

1: In E6, Fighter is a horrible choice of class, because they essentially level faster then everyone else as far as it is concerned.

2: E6 has a set of feats specific to it to rebalance the game to a lvl 6 maximum.

3: 20 feats is still nearly excessive

[Talionis]

1: In E6, Fighter is a horrible choice of class, because they essentially level faster then everyone else as far as it is concerned.

2: E6 has a set of feats specific to it to rebalance the game to a lvl 6 maximum.

3: 20 feats is still nearly excessive

Still no example of how it "breaks the game" , they can just can do more different things.

[toapat]

Still no example of how it "breaks the game" , they can just can do more different things.

it doesnt, because of the 1000 some feats, only 200 of them are worth taking, and of those, a solid half will be caster only.

[Talionis]

I actually agree that twenty feats is excessive, which is good because then you don't have to pick the best feats, you can pick feats to give yourself options and neat abilities you've always wanted.

[toapat]

feats to give yourself options

you do know that most of the feats that give you real options, require long feat chains that will not be usable when you have 20 feats.

[MesiDoomstalker]

We are not saying it breaks the game. Far from it. We are saying that it doesn't help the game much, if at all. It comes with many detriments, which we have pointed out, and the pay offs do not seem to over come these detriments.

[Firechanter]

Warblade: At 5th, 10th and 15th level, you can choose additional Stances.

Crusader: At 5th, 10th and 15th level, you can choose additional Stances.

[this replaces the idiotic Stance progression as written in ToB]

[Essence_of_War]

For all racial paragon classes, 'advances casting' now advances your choice of casting/psi/invocation/meldshaping/initiating.

[Dr.Epic]

Give the Monk light armor proficiency. They can still be Monk like and wear leather or chainmail.

Give the Sorcerer more spells per day. It's the only way he can compete with the Wizard.

[Talionis]

We are not saying it breaks the game. Far from it. We are saying that it doesn't help the game much, if at all. It comes with many detriments, which we have pointed out, and the pay offs do not seem to over come these detriments.

I respectfully disagree.

I think I've shown a lot of benefits. I've never had a character that didn't feel feat starved. I think its a wonderful way to reward non-casters and give them more variety and something to look forward to at each level. It may not put non-casters on the same level, but more feats makes the non-casters have more abilities and making them more interesting.

I haven't seen any clear detriments. Maybe a better example would help. I don't understand at all how giving people more feats will make all the characters look the same. It should allow for a lot more variance. We all agree that at no points do more feats get out of control in any way worse than spells do, they don't in E6.

The one detriment I did point out myself that some feats might need minimum level requirements, but even then I can't think of an example where you get a feat too early. I think most builds with Flaws would already be able to break a feat that is supposed to be for higher levels.

Its my suggestion, I like more feats and the non-magical feats help to flesh out and make more interesting the non-magical characters, at least for me.

[Unseenmal]

Um. Why? the hell?

I think this is suggested because Prestige Classes are not for dipping as most people use them for. I mean, it's in the name Prestige Class. You gained enough Prestige in your base class that this special group is asking you to join their ranks. We as players see that as the entry requirements but IC, those requirements don't actually exist to the PCs. At least they don't exist the way I play my PCs, just like PCs shouldn't know they have a +3 BAB.

That rule is actually what I think the designers originally intended for PrCs. But the rules are ambiguous that state as long as you qualify for the PrC, it's open to take. I used to be of the 1 PrC mindset but it does limit you A LOT. So our group now houseruled that you can have 3 classes total. 1 base and 2 PrCs. It can limit your power but we feel it makes it more fun to figure out how to play them. And isn't fun what it's all about? :smallsmile:

As for my rules changes to contribute:

Paladin: can be of the aligment of their patron Deity instead of LG (I know there are Blackguards or Paladin variants but this just makes sense to me)

Mechanic: Failing that, alignments no longer exist.

[willpell]

Favored Soul gets Knowledge: Religion instead of Knowledge Arcana - not an improvement in power, but in flavor.

DivMinds (only) get Hidden Talent rather than Wild, so they always have at least one power. Fix the power points table in CPsi.

DivMind's Psychic Aura defaults to being switchable with 1 *minute* of meditation, not 1 *hour*!!! What the HELL were they thinking?

Ardents and DivMinds: Body Adjustment is a 2nd-level Life mantle power, rather than 3rd (compare numbers to Touch of Life to see why).

Totemist gains +1 Chakra Bind and "Totem Chakra Bind: +1 Meldshaper Level" at lvl. 5, not 6 (enough happens to all Incarnum guys users then)

Also I'll request that someone else do one: Warmage. He's basically just a bad version of an Evoker as-written, it looks like (though I admit to not reading carefully). Given that blasting is weak in the first place, should the warmage get more spells/day, a free reserve feat, or what? What's the band-aid for making him at least comparable to a Warlock in utility, until I get around to looking deeper?



(Monk buff) Starting at 8th level, a Monk can make a full attack action (but not a flurry of blows) as a standard action. (109 characters)

Why exclude Flurry?


Wizard's don't get Scribe Scroll or any bonus feats. [52 chars]

Bad idea! The brokenness of wizards is in their spells and caster level; feats do not usually make a wizard much more powerful, but they do make him far more interesting. Reserve feats in particular make it possible to "drive under the speed limit" instead of just nova'ing out. I'm fine with the idea of fixing wizards, but it should be done in a way that makes them less incredible at their main shtick, not a way that prevents them from ever doing anything but their main shtick; that's just boring, while still remaining strong-to-gamebreaking.


- Rgr: Able to choose specific classes as Favored Enemies.

A class isn't really supposed to be an in-game construct for the most part. You don't look at the guy manning a anvil, the girl running the kitchen, and the elf who deciphers scrolls for a living and say "these three are experts"; you say "these three are a blacksmith, a cook and a scrivener". And certainly a Rogue who lets anyone know he's a Rogue is not a very good Rogue.


- If you gain an ability from a 2nd source, you add ½ of the lowest bonus to the highest bonus to determine your total bonus with the ability. (140 characters!)

This could get broken fast. Cast Cat's Grace for +4 dexterity, cast it again for +2 more, cast it again for +1, possibly cast it yet again for another +1 since fractions can't exist and there's generally a minimum of 1.


After trying to count those characters, I realize how bad my attention span is. Anyone care to tell me if I made the character limit? I think I did...

Just do what I do - type your message in a Twitter window and copy/paste.



Half-Elves (buff): Gain a bonus feat a la Human

I gave them the extra skill points instead of the feat, as suggested in Unearthed Arcana (a sidebar in the H'elf Paragon). I also extend this to Half-Orcs. For the feat without the skill points, Azurins are fitting, since their Incarnum makes them walking cliches who don't think they need to learn anything because they have special powers. So human hybrids get the other half of the equation; they're not quite as bada** as humans, but they do learn to pursue diverse interests.


Game Mechanics
Multiclassing (buff): Multiclassing penalties do not exist

I'm not saying this is an awful idea, but it means the Favored Class of various races no longer does anything, which is a slight shame because that's a nice bit of flavor for each race. The Pathfinder approach is probably good here, though I'd prefer a more generalized version.


Noose Proficiency

Is this a real thing? I was just wondering the other day about whether there were rules on strangling people (or non-people things that need to breathe according to the MM).


Paladin Buff: Smite Evil Applies to all attacks upto your next turn, Casting attribute of Charisma

I really prefer Wisdom powering Paladins rather than Charisma, as it makes it harder to justify roleplaying them as Lawful Stupid templars. Charisma is the ability to bark orders and make everyone do what you say, which results in a lot of Miko paladins; Wisdom is the ability to know what you should say or do, and thus lets you make actual good guys like O-Chul and Hinjo. It would make perfect flavor sense to key Lay on Hands and possibly Divine Grace off Wisdom; only Smite Evil really fits Charisma better.

[toapat]

Is this a real thing? I was just wondering the other day about whether there were rules on strangling people (or non-people things that need to breathe according to the MM).

I really prefer Wisdom powering Paladins rather than Charisma, as it makes it harder to justify roleplaying them as Lawful Stupid templars. Charisma is the ability to bark orders and make everyone do what you say, which results in a lot of Miko paladins; Wisdom is the ability to know what you should say or do, and thus lets you make actual good guys like O-Chul and Hinjo. It would make perfect flavor sense to key Lay on Hands and possibly Divine Grace off Wisdom; only Smite Evil really fits Charisma better.

1: no idea, the joke was, that fixing their lack of proficiency doesnt help them enough

2: Miko is specifically how not to play paladin, and part of that is that you have to understand that the Paladin Code is a flavorful thing, not a RAW thing. besides that. I thought miko's mental stats didnt exceed the bare minimum to use 1st level paladin spells and lay on hands. O-Chul on the other hand would more likely have attributes of 18 10 22-24 18 18 18. Hinjo is a Paladin who is Lawful and Good.

Wisdom actually seems more relevant to the overall theme that the paladin class features are built onto (which is Knight Errant crossed with Jesus's Disciples), but charisma is more along what the paladin is (someone who believes absolutely in doing good).

[God Imperror]

Is this a real thing? I was just wondering the other day about whether there were rules on strangling people (or non-people things that need to breathe according to the MM).

Song and Silence has garrotes and rules to use them (and defend against them)

[hisnamehere]

This could get broken fast. Cast Cat's Grace for +4 dexterity, cast it again for +2 more, cast it again for +1, possibly cast it yet again for another +1 since fractions can't exist and there's generally a minimum of 1.

Sorry, this was meant to address class abilities. I've always been annoyed when I loose out on gaining an ability from a new class because I already had that ability (or bonus feat). This was not meant to override the stacking rules.

So, I'll rephrase:
- If you gain a class ability from a 2nd source, you add ½ the lowest bonus to the highest bonus to determine your total bonus with the ability. (140+ characters...)

Another (already mentioned?):
- If, as a class feature, you gain a bonus feat to which you already have access, you instead gain another bonus feat (DM's approval).

[Sgt. Cookie]

Monk - Flurry of blows: Doubles attack routine at level 1, triples at 8 and quadruples at level 16. All attacks are made at highest BAB.

[Fable Wright]

I really prefer Wisdom powering Paladins rather than Charisma, as it makes it harder to justify roleplaying them as Lawful Stupid templars. Charisma is the ability to bark orders and make everyone do what you say, which results in a lot of Miko paladins; Wisdom is the ability to know what you should say or do, and thus lets you make actual good guys like O-Chul and Hinjo. It would make perfect flavor sense to key Lay on Hands and possibly Divine Grace off Wisdom; only Smite Evil really fits Charisma better.

Fair enough. It's just that, as written, everything but spellcasting is based on Wisdom, so lumping it in with the rest is the most elegant way of making the Paladin more SAD with just a few characters. Also, Charisma has been a part of the Paladin class since AD&D and would explain why paladins are popular among the general populace. I definitely see your point, though.

[willpell]

Sorry, this was meant to address class abilities. I've always been annoyed when I loose out on gaining an ability from a new class because I already had that ability (or bonus feat). This was not meant to override the stacking rules.

Hm. Most abilities like that already stack (rogue and barbarian Uncanny Dodge, for instance). What were you thinking of specifically?


Another (already mentioned?):
- If, as a class feature, you gain a bonus feat to which you already have access, you instead gain another bonus feat (DM's approval).

They offer this option in most books other than the core, though there are a few cases where they specifically withhold the extra feat in that case, probably for some degree of reason (Lycanthropes come to mind; if you already have Alertness and you take a base animal that has that feat, which nearly all of them do, you shouldn't really be able to decide you want Power Attack or Leadership or whatnot in its place, particularly not given prerequisites that you probably couldnt' meet when you took Alertness originally. Elsewise I could see optimizers queueing up to get bitten by multiple lycanthropes so they could be Afflicted and get free high-level feats.

But yeah, something like Endurance, which my werebear ranger has as a werebear and will gain at level 3 from being a ranger? Definitely going to allow myself to take something else in its place, albeit probably something comparably weak like Agile or Self-Sufficient.

[Dusk Eclipse]

...Lycanthropy sucks, even if you could get bonus feats (let's be nice an assume you can get pre-requisite free feats) the extra HD and LA would make the player really, really weak.

[willpell]

...Lycanthropy sucks, even if you could get bonus feats (let's be nice an assume you can get pre-requisite free feats) the extra HD and LA would make the player really, really weak.

But if you're Afflicted, you get them largely for free, and they only stop you from leveling up in the future. So you've essentially taken your next several levels all in one fell swoop, even if the game wouldn't have gone on that long.