Bard Build Assistance

[Bushmufflin]

Quick bit of background: Played some ADD as a kid. Recently the weekly boardgame group wanted to do a campaign of D&D 3.5. I played a Ranger/Archer and that went well. Due to a new baby on the way with the DM we are shelving that a couple of months and starting another.

A friend of mine and I started discussing a tandem type character idea had one of our stupid ideas. He is going a towering human Cleric that is basically going for giant crushing attacks (hulk smash) with a very clever following of the god of tyranny, and I am going to play a devious, devilish cunning bard.

Through some event (we are writing it out now probably a life saving event, etc.) he feels compelled to defend me. So basically I go around somewhat stirring troubles up and he provides the muscle to back-up my running mouth.

Our plan is to role play the hell out of the set-up, and enjoy some fun.

The Need:
We are starting at LVL 4, with 10,000 gold.

DM has said we will get max HP per level but monsters also will.

I rolled the following for stats: 10,14,16,16,10,18

Am thinking of going Star Elf (the DM approved) for the +2 CHAR and -2 CON:

So would go STR: 10 / DEX: 14 / Con 16-2 (race) /16 Int / 10 Wis / 18 +2 (race)

Beyond that I am pretty much lost on feats, and where I should spend the $10k. One item I have acquired is a wand of enlarge person. In a sample run through encounter last night that was my first move (enlarge mr. ugly).

Thoughts? Suggestions? Am I an idiot for even thinking this way?

[ahenobarbi]

For feats you could take:
Dragonfire Inspiration (http://dndtools.eu/feats/dragon-magic--62/dragonfire-inspiration--733/)
and
Dragon touched (http://dndtools.eu/feats/dragon-magic--62/dragontouched--747/) (to fulffill requirement fo Dragon Fire Inspiration).

Badge of Valor fro MiC will give you +1 to inspire courage (3/day IIRC) for 1400gp.

[docnessuno]

You could go Magic blooded human, for +2 Cha -2 Wis, extra feat and skillpoints.


Good feats for bards (some avaiable at later levels):
Disguise Spell
Dragonfire Inspiration (Requires a feat)
Lingering Song
Song of the White Raven (Requires 2 feats or a 1 level ToB dip)
Doomspeak
Dark Speech
Song of the Heart
Snowflake wardance

[Shaynythyryas]

'Dark Speech' could be great too, if you're Evil.

It's the evil counterpart to the Exalted 'Words of Creation' : as the latter can be used to imbue your bard songs and double their effects, see with your GM what the Dark Speech could do for you.

[Bushmufflin]

'Dark Speech' could be great too, if you're Evil.

It's the evil counterpart to the Exalted 'Words of Creation' : as the latter can be used to imbue your bard songs and double their effects, see with your GM what the Dark Speech could do for you.

Though I wanted to go evil the GM insisted on the party would be in too many "good" locations to allow the evil char to participate. I settled for CN.

[Exirtadorri]

If you really want to play a bard then the complete scoundrel is the book you should be looking at. That book has all sorts of useful goodies for bard from new magic instruments, skill tricks, decent feats, and even special bard only weapons. The skill tricks are something you might REALLY want to look at.

And as always, max out your UMD skill as a bard and eventually you'll have a wand or magic item that you can use for anything you could ever imagine.

[Rejakor]

Do you want to be a devil-quick melee combatant? Bard can do that.

Do you want to be the smoothiest smooth talker of all smooth talking smooth talkers? Bard can do that.

Do you want to be an epic songmaster using your musical talents to empower your friends into epic and terrifying gods of war? Bard can do that.


Do you want to do all these things at the same time? Bard can do that... although it's relatively harder.

[gorfnab]

Bard Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284)
Inspire Courage Optimization Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830)

[Rejakor]

Bard melee - check out the X stat to Y bonus thread, add your CHA to your hit, your damage, and your AC a few times. Sublime Chord helps with this immensely.

Bard talker - dip Binder1 for Naberius, stack stuff that helps your social skills like items, spells, feats, ranks, high cha etc.

the dragonfire inspiration optimization thing covers the rest.

[Socratov]

Ehm, if I might suggest some splatdiving: Ebberon Campaignsetting for trading suggestion for song of the heart (you are featstarved as it is, try to get your schtick for free if possible by trading away classfeatures), complete champion for Healing Hymn instead of thingie, and if you really want the mileage, be a goodie two-shoes and get words of creation, they are worth it. further, if you plan on multiclassing into soemthing other then bard, chaos music is a great idea (sort of same effect as vest of legends, but inherent and stacking for 4 nonbard hd to get more music to your max hd). for the rest, get the handbook, read it through with a nice glass of wine in front of the fireplace with some nice music on and have fun.

also, If I would make a Wagnerian bard, would opera count as perform singing or perform oratory? (Imagine performing "die ring des Nibelungen" while fighting, now that would be an awesome bard, shattering the rule of cool)

for bard talking you can also consider warlock for beguiling influence (+6 to all 3 social skills, on for 24 hours is a great boon indeed)

[God Imperror]

Star elf is one of my favorite races for bard, I definitively suggest that you take bardic knack (phb II) and elvish dilettante (races of the wild, I believe). That would let you have half your bard levels (rounded up) +1 to all skills in which you don't have ranks and allow you to do skill checks untrained. That should allow you to focus your skill points where it is really necessary.

[Bushmufflin]

Thanks for all the input. A quick update on what I am thinking.

I tried the Magic Blooded Human but the DM refused it even though I was willing to give up all the other racial advantages of the Magic Blooded for the +2 CHA.

That said I am thinking for the sake of feats, going Female(never done this before) Human. Basically she will be a man-eater of a woman using whatever means needed to get what she wants.

I had not planned on carrying a weapon, but I was interested in Harmonize. So I asked the DM if I could get Harmonize on another item or if he would allow me to use Harmonize on a concealed dagger. Once again he said no.

Feats So Far:
Dragontouched by Pyroclastic (1st lvl Feat)
Dragonfire Inspiration (Bonus Human Feat)
Song of the Heart (Substituted for Inspire Competence..Somehow DM agree to that change)
Words of Creation (3rd level Feat)

Cash Spent So Far:
$4k Cloak of Charisma
$1250 +1 Chain shirt
$750 Wand of Enlarge Person
$750 Healing Belt
$1K Badge of Valor
$300 Masterwork Instruments
$1400 Anklet of Translocation

Thoughts?

[Acanous]

I had a similar thread over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14150412#post14150412). I'll be looking over this one for any build ideas not present in that one, you may wish to do the same :3

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're running around with a Cleric who worships a god of tyranny (typically LE), then you probably won't be able to use exalted feats like Words of Creation.

I'd go for a fear-based (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0) build, which is especially good in the lower and mid levels.

Go with a Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs), use the Half-Humans variant in Races of Destiny p150, and take the feat Dreadful Wrath (PGtF). Replace Inspire Courage with Inspire Awe from Dragon Magic. Replace Fascinate with Healing Hymn in Complete Champion (it works with Cure Minor Wounds). Replace Bardic Knowledge with Bardic Knack in PH2. Consider using Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) , it's a pure upgrade from PHB Bard.

Go Bard 8/ Nightmare Spinner 1/ Dread Witch 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Dread Witch 4/ Nightmare Spinner 4, DW 1 and NS 1 should be taken asap, later on take them in whichever order is preferred.

Feats should include Melodic Casting, Doomspeak, Imperious Command, Fell Frighten Spell, Practical Metamagic: Fell Frighten, etc. Say you visited the Otyugh Hole in Complete Scoundrel to get the feat Menacing Demeanor for 3,000 gp without having to spend a feat on it (or say it happens when you get a few weeks of in-game downtime if you don't want to afford it starting out). Get two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) if possible, there are some good ones (http://alt.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258440#30) from various issues of Dragon magazine. The skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel based on Tumble and Balance are pretty good, and definitely get Never Outnumbered.

Get a Mithral Buckler starting out, you'll probably keep that forever. You'll want to start with a basic chain shirt and eventually upgrade to Mithral Breastplate, and you'll want to make that +1 with the Fearsome property from Drow of the Underdark. The Raiment of the Four set in MIC is extremely useful, this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) is a pretty good indication of the types of items you want to aim for, and then there's the obligatory Shax's Indispensable Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101). Per MIC p234 you can add bland bonuses to other items depending on what item spot it occupies for the same price as buying a standalone item of that same bonus, so you should never forgo an item with a useful/fun ability for a bland stat item.

[Malroth]

Thats one scary bard

[Gwendol]

I find fascinate to be of great utility for bards. Not many creatures can make the save unless immune.

[Bushmufflin]

Another Update:

Feats So Far:
Dragontouched by Pyroclastic (1st lvl Feat)
Dragonfire Inspiration (Bonus Human Feat)
Song of the Heart (Substituted for Inspire Competence..Somehow DM agree to that change)
Words of Creation (3rd level Feat)

DM Said I would have to work on an RP way to get that IF he decided he would allow it. Minimum LVL 6 now. So I have a feat to spend. Based on my build does anyone see something that would stand out as the best?

Current thought process is encounters would look like this.

Pre entering Cast Harmony +2 to next Inspire Courage

Round 1: Big Ugly with the wand of enlarge
Round 2: Inspire courage with a MW Mandolin or Drum, and activate Badge of Valor. Having Song Of The Heart would make that a +6

I have pondered not bothering with the Words of Creation and leaving it at this. Then Level 6 taking Leadership so I can have a wand bitch handle the Enlarge Person.


Thoughts?

[Rejakor]

How are you getting a +2 to Inspire Courage from Harmonize? If you're using the Song and Silence version, you can't count yourself as a backup singer and a lead singer - you need at least 2 bards to do that trick. Besides, if Races of Stone is in play, it's the newer source, and thus, it's version of Harmonize replaces the 3.0 Song and Silence harmonize.

If you check out Inspire Courage, by the way, it doesn't need a standard action to keep it up - there is no listed action to keep it up at all, you just have to remain in range of your party members (And they get it back if they come back within range) so i'd suggest Lingering Song (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-adventurer--54/lingering-song--1776/). That way you can have one version of Inspire Courage up all day (either regular or dragon inspiring, depends what you have in the group) and if you get into a hard fight, you can end that inspire courage and start a new one, and for 10 rounds the party will have both the +4 hit/dmg AND the +4d6 elemental (and if you really feel like going all out, as you're pyroclastic-touched, you could spend another standard action and start up the OTHER elemental type you're associated with, for +8d6 total elemental damage on each attack).

I'd normally suggest subsonics for this, but it requires 10 ranks in perform.

Two bonuses to Inspire Courage that you're missing are a masterwork Horn, and the Inspirational Boost spell (SpC). I'd use both, so for most of the day you're playing inspirational jazz solos hands-free on your trumpet, while firing a bow or using a wand or whatever, and if excrement hits the fan you strike up an incendiary solo act to burn the house down.

[Bushmufflin]

How are you getting a +2 to Inspire Courage from Harmonize?

Sorry for the typo, I meant the Spell Harmony

[gallagher]

if you like having fun in a spell-casty sort of way, go for sublime chord

bonus points if you spend two feats to get assassins stance and continue your SC progression with unseen seer

even better, if you are willing to put off 9ths for a level, spell thief with master spell thief

[Keld Denar]

Melodic Casting is better than Lingering Song in most cases. Unless you get stunned, knocked out, or silenced, the only reason to stop a song is to cast. Melodic Casting makes it so you don't have to do that, even. Also works with spell triggers (Wands).

Plus, you get the added bonus of using Perform in place of Concentration, so it basically gives you one extra skill point per level since there is no longer a need for Concentration, a skill most bards pick up.

[Rejakor]

Yeah, Melodic Casting is also a good feat.

This Harmony (http://dndtools.eu/spells/magic-of-faerun--20/harmony--1647/)? I'm not super sure, as that might not be the exact text, but if so it might actually wipe out all your other bonuses to Inspire Courage, as it says a specific number and not +X.

Possibly though, since you get to decide the order effects occur in, if it occurred first it would be fine. But I still dunno.

[Socratov]

1st decide the order of effects: add first, multiply later

On melodic casting vs lingering song: Lingering song is great becuase it allows you to start a new use of bardic music while the effects of another are 'lingering': for instance: you start with DFI, next turn you let the DFI linger (as in you discontinue) and are free to start IC, (now the melee people are really meatgrinders, they hit, and they hit hard, unless they roll a nat 1) next turn you cast some, couple of turnsl ater combat has gone by and your music stops lingering.

[Rejakor]

The problem is, as I usually play bard gishes or archers, that he might want to use spells in combat.

With his daily uses of bardic music, it's probably a bit wasteful to use two songs unless it's actually a hardcore combat, so melodic casting will probably be more useful than lingering song - that and i've found that most combats don't even last 5 rounds in the first place, unless i'm running the game.

[Socratov]

I am away from books at the moment, but don't you need to concnetrate or at least dedicate an action to keeping up the song? it wouldn't make sense otherwise (this is why lingering song is so good. you can perform for 1 round and do other useful things for the rest of the rounds of combat)

[Keld Denar]

I am away from books at the moment, but don't you need to concnetrate or at least dedicate an action to keeping up the song? it wouldn't make sense otherwise (this is why lingering song is so good. you can perform for 1 round and do other useful things for the rest of the rounds of combat)

It is more or less a non-action to maintain Inspire Courage. You can pretty much do anything, including fight, while keeping a song going. There is a simple short list if things you can not do. One of them is to can't spells or use magic items. Melodic Casting allows that. Thus, you can do anything other than start a new song as long as you have Melodic Casting.

[Rejakor]

A common misreading of the rules is that Inspire Courage requires concentration - i.e. a standard action each round - to keep up.

In fact, what the bardic music entry says is that SOME bardic music effects require concentration - all that do are listed in their separate entries (such as fascinate).