Newer DM, Creating Party Balance

[shortnsweet456]

I am a relatively new DM, though this is not my first campaign, working with almost brand new players or players brand new to this system. Though we are only at level 2, we are already experienced an imbalance in the party.

I have five players for the pre-made (though I use it as a base, and edit it for the players) campaign Shattered Gates of Slaughterguard. I have:

A schizophrenic human ranger with an imaginary owl
A redemptive human warlock
A ex-alcoholic human cleric that goes strictly white mage
A human war-blade that only barely speaks common, but is an expert on orcs
and a human warmage with little back-story

Everyone except for the warmage is very much into it for the experience and story. The warmage hangs out on forums and looks up optimum builds.

This has created a party imbalance that I am not sure how to fix, as I have 4 players basing their characters off of a well thought out back-story who sacrifice power for flavor, while the other creates the build that they can get the most bang out of. The warmage becomes very dominant in all battles, which is clearly very frustrating to the other players, as he murders things before anyone else has a chance.

So I ask, what are some ideas anyone has to help me, as a newer DM, to help create a balance between the parties so that everyone can enjoy themselves.

[Gavinfoxx]

Encourage everyone to target a ~Tier 3 or 4 character level, with no over the top optimization.

This means:

-Encourage the Ranger to be a Wild Shape or heavily ACF'd Ranger, or use one of the Ranger fixes.
-If the warlock really likes to push his minmax heavily, he should probably be the only Tier 4 in the group, to give him a bit more leeway to push. OR he could switch to Warmage, or a more support T4 character like Dragonfire Adept, or Dragon Shaman.
-The Cleric can maybe agree to tone down to a less powerful class, like Crusader, Dread Necromancer, Shaman, or Shujenga. While he might not optimize, if he ever realizes that the Core Cleric can basically solve any problem ever with a bit of slightly intelligent play, he can really overpower the rest of the group. Or perhaps use one of the tier-3 targeted cleric nerfs on the net. Remind the group that healing can be done by a 750 gp wand.
-The Warblade is fine
-The Warmage might want to switch to a character that has a bit more innate versatility to it, like Duskblade or pathfinder Magus, or perhaps use one of the Warmage fixes on the net.

[qwertyu63]

Encourage everyone to target a ~Tier 3 or 4 character level, with no over the top optimization.

This means:

-Encourage the Ranger to be a Wild Shape or heavily ACF'd Ranger, or use one of the Ranger fixes.
-If the warlock really likes to push his minmax heavily, he should probably be the only Tier 4 in the group, to give him a bit more leeway to push. OR he could switch to Warmage, or a more support T4 character like Dragonfire Adept, or Dragon Shaman.
-The Cleric can maybe agree to tone down to a less powerful class, like Crusader, Dread Necromancer, Shaman, or Shujenga. While he might not optimize, if he ever realizes that the Core Cleric can basically solve any problem ever with a bit of slightly intelligent play, he can really overpower the rest of the group. Or perhaps use one of the tier-3 targeted cleric nerfs on the net. Remind the group that healing can be done by a 750 gp wand.
-The Warblade is fine
-The Warmage might want to switch to a character that has a bit more innate versatility to it, like Duskblade or pathfinder Magus, or perhaps use one of the Warmage fixes on the net.

You seem to have missed that the Warmage is the problem, as they are over-doing it. From your post, you are trying to hit the Cleric, while keeping the Warlock in line, neither of whom were problems.

To the OP, it sounds like the Warmage's player is trying to play a different sort of game. Take them aside and talk to them. Tell them this isn't just some war game, and that they are hurting the game. If they get it, they just need to tone it down, and not use all their power. If they don't, then you may have other issues I won't discuss here.

[Mishkov]

Give an example of what the warmage is doing. That's not a class that is known to be very overpowered.

You can always sort things out with gear, when the ranger is picking up nice swords, the warlock getting blast bonus amulets of homebrew and the warmage gets...not so great stuff, or a cursed item :smallbiggrin:

[Darthteej]

I agree with the poster above, the problem is the player and their disconnect with the rest of the party. I would also suggest having some of the party members voice their concerns; that makes it a matter of intra-party cooperation rather than the DM trying to exert control over the character build. And if this warmage is your average newbie optimizer, then he'll probably resent a DM "taking away his powers".

Would you mind posting the warmage's build here, so that we can all look for the cheese between his delicious class sandwhich?

[Kesnit]

Encourage everyone to target a ~Tier 3 or 4 character level, with no over the top optimization.

I wonder if you read the OP, since your recommendations do not seem to fit...


-Encourage the Ranger to be a Wild Shape or heavily ACF'd Ranger, or use one of the Ranger fixes.
-If the warlock really likes to push his minmax heavily, he should probably be the only Tier 4 in the group, to give him a bit more leeway to push. OR he could switch to Warmage, or a more support T4 character like Dragonfire Adept, or Dragon Shaman.

The Ranger and Warlock are not the problems.


-The Cleric can maybe agree to tone down to a less powerful class, like Crusader, Dread Necromancer, Shaman, or Shujenga. While he might not optimize, if he ever realizes that the Core Cleric can basically solve any problem ever with a bit of slightly intelligent play, he can really overpower the rest of the group. Or perhaps use one of the tier-3 targeted cleric nerfs on the net. Remind the group that healing can be done by a 750 gp wand.

The OP said the Cleric is going purely "White Mage," which I read as "heal/buffs" only. In other words, the kind of build that works well with a group and does not tend to overpower.


The Warmage might want to switch to a character that has a bit more innate versatility to it, like Duskblade or pathfinder Magus, or perhaps use one of the Warmage fixes on the net.

This is why I wonder if you read the OP. The Warmage is the problem, and the warmage is the problem because the warmage's player is the only one building for power and to overshadow. You just encouraged a player who is already a problem and is overshadowing everyone else to make a build that can do even more. And part of the problem is that the warmage is already getting builds off the Web.


OP: I would recommend talking to the Warmage's player away from game and pointing out that the character is overshadowing the rest of the party and the other players have raised concerns. Start by asking the player to tone it down and see what happens. It may be a case of misunderstanding and things will work out. Or the player may stay firm in building purely for power, at which point you will have to decide what step to take after that.

I would not recommend asking the Warblade player to help the others optimize. It seems you and they have a power level you all are comfortable with, and bringing in optimization may turn the game into something you don't want to run and the others don't want to play.

[Gavinfoxx]

Sorry, got the Warmage and Warlock mixed up...

I'd suggest the Warlock go Psion, maybe.

If everyone else is T3, and the Warmage is the problem, as long as he doesn't go Rainbow Warsnake, and everyone else is a more powerful class (ie, at least Tier 3, maybe Tier 2), than he should be fine. After all, a Warmage generally just does damage.

[Darthteej]

Sorry, got the Warmage and Warlock mixed up...

I'd suggest the Warlock go Psion, maybe.

If everyone else is T3, and the Warmage is the problem, as long as he doesn't go Rainbow Warsnake, and everyone else is a more powerful class (ie, at least Tier 3, maybe Tier 2), than he should be fine. After all, a Warmage generally just does damage.

But that's not what's happening in this game!

The WARMAGE is the one who is playing a deliberately overpowered build, everyone is fine where they are. The warmage has, according to OP, consistently overpowered combat and frustrated the party because they all feel irrelevant.

[Gavinfoxx]

WHAT THE HECK IS A WARMAGE POSSIBLY DOING OTHER THAN DAMAGE?

And why is HIT POINT DAMAGE a problem? That's all Warmages do! With a tiny bit of battlefield control.

Don't the other characters ever interact with the world in any way whatsoever other than dealing hit point damage to it??

[Wyntonian]

WHAT THE HECK IS A WARMAGE POSSIBLY DOING OTHER THAN DAMAGE?

And why is HIT POINT DAMAGE a problem? That's all Warmages do! With a tiny bit of battlefield control.

Don't the other characters ever interact with the world in any way whatsoever other than dealing hit point damage to it??

I imagine because it can end encounters? Just a guess?

[Malroth]

Roll with it for now but know the rules, Warmage damage scales incredibly poorly with level and they don't have any capabilities besides their subpar damage. If he's still overpowering CR6 encounters at LV 6 then he's probably cheating and should be brought under closer scrutiny.

[Gavinfoxx]

To me it sounds like the GM should consider varying his encounters a bit more. If they are being ended by a single blast spell from the Warmage, than there should perhaps be more sorts of encounters, or more terrain, or enemies with good reflex saves and evasion, or resistances to energy, or there should be noncombatants that the party has to prevent from dying, or more social encounters, or they should have more difficulty figuring out exactly where the enemies are (with invisibility and such), or any other innumerable things. If the answer to any given encounter is a Warmage Fireballing the encounter... than the encounter was maybe too easy. The Warmage has basically one big hammer; dealing elemental damage to things. It is a good hammer, and is very useful in many situations... however, it should not generally be capable of successfully resolving all encounters in a single round if the encounters have enough versatility to them.

Or the player could be cheating or misunderstanding the rules. Why don't you post the character sheet or the stats and have us look at it, as well as what dice he is rolling for various spells. Also could you maybe show us one of the problematic encounters that he solved really quickly, go over how the encounter was set up and the stats of the creatures?

[nyjastul69]

I agree that a private and frank discussion is probably in order. The Warmage may not see his optimization level as a problem. Depending on how well you know each other this may or may not be effective, or even possible. I would also agree that the Warmage is essentially playing a 'different' game. The warmage doesn't necessarilly need to rebuild to fit with the rest of the group, asking a character to dial it back a bit can sometimes be all that is necessary.

There are ways to try and handle this mechanically. Place items that help the other charcters mechanically. Base more encounters around noncombat threats that suit the other characters strengths. Build combat encounters that play to the other characters strenghts and the Warmage's weaknessess. These suggestions of course have their own potential problems. Aleinating the offending player is one. You may also be create a situation where the power level of the game is something you can't handle, are not comfortable with, or you and the majority of the players simply do not like. I would stongly recommend a sit down with the player of the Warmage.

You could also just smack the offending player upside the head with a DMG and say 'Please play nice'

Good luck with the game and I hope it works out well. Please keep us posted.

[qwertyu63]

I agree that a private and frank discussion is probably in order. The Warmage may not see his optimization level as a problem. Depending on how well you know each other this may or may not be effective, or even possible. I would also agree that the Warmage is essentially playing a 'different' game. The warmage doesn't necessarilly need to re-build to fit with the rest of the group, asking a character to dial it back a bit can sometime be all that is necessary.

And here we have someone making my point better than I can. Just listen to this and all should be fine.


You could also just smack the offending player upside the head with a DMG and say 'Please play nice'

Keep this as plan B. And please, do keep us posted.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ya know what cools a warmage down real quick? Cover. Partial gives a bonus on ref saves, which can kill his damage output, total makes his blasting worthless.

If he favors one type of energy, energy resistances can be problematic. So can monsters with multiple energy resistances.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how viable this advice is for the published module in question, but maybe for future reference?

[roguemetal]

...Or you know, you could wait a few levels, tell them no they can't have this or that feat, and before long the Warmage will balance out with the party on their own.

[nedz]

Everyone except for the warmage is very much into it for the experience and story. The warmage hangs out on forums and looks up optimum builds.

You might want to consider banning the Rainbow Servant PrC, unless that is you understand how to fix it. As others have mentioned Warmage is weak, but Warmage/Rainbow Servant 10 is a well know very strong build. This probably won't break your game until level 15 so if you do not see the game going that far, it will not be a major issue.

Warmages have lots of AoEs. Evasion, available at level 2 for Rogues and Monks, severely impacts the effectiveness of AoEs.

[Studoku]

It sounds like there are two problems here.

The first and, in my opinion more serious, problem is the warmage dominating encounters. One player dominating can be a problem although I'm not entirely sure how a warmage would do it- warmages are good at dealing large amounts of damage but are not good at ending encounters before other people get a turn- especially when they only have lvl 1 spells.

Can you post a sample encounter where the warmage dominates and/or kills everything before the others get a chance?

The second problem is the warmage's lack of a backstory or any rp. You could try to solve this in game by encouraging the warmage to participate in non-combat encounters but this may not be effective if he just wants to roll dice and blow stuff up.

Have you discussed any of this with the other players by the way? Find out whether they actually mind the warmage dominating encounters (especially if they're getting the spotlight in non-combat stuff) before trying to fix a problem that might not even be a problem.

[prufock]

Can you give us an example of what happens in encounters? IE What spells are being used, what enemies are they fighting, etc. At level 2 the warmage's spell list is pretty limited, though they mostly damage spells. What is he doing that is ending encounters so quickly?

Also, you make it sound like the other players have purposely handicapped themselves. Are they surprised that a character built to be effective is effective?

[docnessuno]

Excluding the rainbow servant trick (wich should be banned in mid-low op games), the Warmage is a class on par (if not weaker) with most of the party.

As many other posters i cannot see how he is dominating encounters, so i think that further clarification on this point is needed.
Often times when such things happen it's caused by a misinterpretation of one or more rules.

[eggs]

This is why I hate tier threads.

But until we get some explanation on how the game's being broken, I get the impression the thing imbalance isn't coming from the Warmage itself (it's easy to do cool flashy things with a WM, but hard to dominate the game), but just knowing how to play. And that should work itself out while the other players gain experience playing.

[ThiagoMartell]

Oh, it's that time of the week already! "High OP in low OP group"-day!
It always amuses me when someone mentions their group plays low OP but a high OP player shows up. We always get a mix of:
1- You are doing it wrong. "I read on the forums that class X is not overpowered. It's on tier Y, for crying out loud. It only does Z! How is Z a problem? Clearly, you're doing it wrong. Go back to your home and rethink your life. The problem is you."
2- Optimize everyone else. "Class X is tier Y, so player should take feat Z and go for a prestige class. The other players should optimize and use a set of specific tactics, nevermind their backstory or personality. Also, the guy you complained about? He is not the problem. The problem is everyone else."
3- Talk to the dude. "Well, he is playing at on optimization level above everyone else. Can you ask him to tone it down? The highly optimized character is the problem."
4- Change all your encounters. "Clearly your encounters are all the same. Try to use more monsters, even if they don't fit your campaign. Add class levels to monsters and/or advance them, even if you don't have time to do so. The problem is you. And your campaign. And your setting, probably."
5- Don't listen to anyone else. "OP, you're awesome. Your game is awesome. Your players are awesome, every single one of them. Would you happen to have an open spot? I'm just a few million miles away."
6 - I did not read the OP, so I'll just make a joke about the title. "Looks like you need to put more skill points in Balance."
You could even roll 1d6 to know which will be the next post :smallbiggrin:

[nedz]

Oh, it's that time of the week already! "High OP in low OP group"-day!
It always amuses me when someone mentions their group plays low OP but a high OP player shows up. We always get a mix of:
1- You are doing it wrong. "I read on the forums that class X is not overpowered. It's on tier Y, for crying out loud. It only does Z! How is Z a problem? Clearly, you're doing it wrong. Go back to your home and rethink your life. The problem is you."
2- Optimize everyone else. "Class X is tier Y, so player should take feat Z and go for a prestige class. The other players should optimize and use a set of specific tactics, nevermind their backstory or personality. Also, the guy you complained about? He is not the problem. The problem is everyone else."
3- Talk to the dude. "Well, he is playing at on optimization level above everyone else. Can you ask him to tone it down? The highly optimized character is the problem."
4- Change all your encounters. "Clearly your encounters are all the same. Try to use more monsters, even if they don't fit your campaign. Add class levels to monsters and/or advance them, even if you don't have time to do so. The problem is you. And your campaign. And your setting, probably."
5- Don't listen to anyone else. "OP, you're awesome. Your game is awesome. Your players are awesome, every single one of them. Would you happen to have an open spot? I'm just a few million miles away."
6 - I did not read the OP, so I'll just make a joke about the title. "Looks like you need to put more skill points in Balance."
You could even roll 1d6 to know which will be the next post :smallbiggrin:

You missed
7 - OMG its that day of the week again. We get a lot of these responses also.:smallbiggrin:

[ThiagoMartell]

You missed
7 - OMG its that day of the week again. We get a lot of these responses also.:smallbiggrin:

Damnit, look at what you've done! Now it won't fit in the d6!

8 - Shameless Homebrew Plug "Hey, I know you said no homebrew, but I have this thing I did and it needs a little testing, maybe if you can force your DM into accepting it... Let me know how it goes!"

There, fixed it. :smallsmile:

[docnessuno]

Damnit, look at what you've done! Now it won't fit in the d6!

8 - Shameless Homebrew Plug "Hey, I know you said no homebrew, but I have this thing I did and it needs a little testing, maybe if you can force your DM into accepting it... Let me know how it goes!"

There, fixed it. :smallsmile:

9 - Derailing the thread "Hey, let's start our little mini-game, only marginally-related to the OP and see what happens"

Your move.

[ThiagoMartell]

9 - Derailing the thread "Hey, let's start our little mini-game, only marginally-related to the OP and see what happens"

Your move.

I give up. You killed my minigame, sir. Hope you're happy. :smallfrown:

[2xMachina]

You seem to have missed that the Warmage is the problem, as they are over-doing it. From your post, you are trying to hit the Cleric, while keeping the Warlock in line, neither of whom were problems.

To the OP, it sounds like the Warmage's player is trying to play a different sort of game. Take them aside and talk to them. Tell them this isn't just some war game, and that they are hurting the game. If they get it, they just need to tone it down, and not use all their power. If they don't, then you may have other issues I won't discuss here.

What's he's saying is... Warmage ain't OP. The cleric potentially is.

[ThiagoMartell]

What's he's saying is... Warmage ain't OP. The cleric potentially is.

Which is not really a issue if the Cleric is not disrupting the game. The Warmage? Is.
Character > Class

[2xMachina]

IDK... blaster's aren't exactly OP... Cleric is playing fine, so he's not a problem either.

Blaster.... is like Dan "I only use fire (elemental) spells". He ought to get stuck at quite a number of things. (Imp) Evasion kills AoE, cover kills AoE, Elemental Resistance kills blasts... Anything that doesn't need killing

EDIT: I concede that I'm not fully aware of the situation, and the premade adventure may have plenty of encounters that the warmage is geared to.

[ThiagoMartell]

IDK... blaster's aren't exactly OP... Cleric is playing fine, so he's not a problem either.

Blaster.... is like Dan "I only use fire (elemental) spells". He ought to get stuck at quite a number of things. (Imp) Evasion kills AoE, cover kills AoE, Elemental Resistance kills blasts... Anything that doesn't need killing

Dude, your point doesn't help the OP. You don't think that it's a problem? Good for you, congratulations! For the OP's game, for the OP's group, for his style and his campaign, it is a problem. He just stated that, it's a fact.

[2xMachina]

Dude, your point doesn't help the OP. You don't think that it's a problem? Good for you, congratulations! For the OP's game, for the OP's group, for his style and his campaign, it is a problem. He just stated that, it's a fact.

Problem is, we're not sure how the problem is... we're not there, we don't know how it happens.

Maybe warmage has high init, and ranged, so he hits 1st. Maybe the module is easy, and does go down in 1 hit from anything. Maybe the module is a kill spree, being great for blasters.

I find it hard to optimize lvl 2 chars. You only get 2 class lvls, and 1 feat (2 with human). You can do next to no customization with it. You only have lvl 1 spells.

[Kantolin]

Really - talk to the warmage.

If the problem is 'the warmage is doing too much damage', then ask him to tone it down a bit. I mean, you /can/ try various energy resistances and various other defenses, but a major point of warmages is that you always have another blast handy. Even if he prefers, say, sonic, and you start throwing sonic-resistant things at him, he'll just shrug and use fire today. Everything has good reflex saves? Okay, he'll try fort or will today, he has a few of those, or no-save or touch spells. If you do manage to completely shut him down, it'll look highly suspicious if this happens every encounter.

Damage, while theoretically not as relevant as a lot of other 'higher-tier' things, is actually just as obnoxious when there's too much of it. I mean... no, it's not 'summon an army of balors/solars', but having round one be, "I hit the boss and his main henchman for fifty million damage" can be a gigantic irritation, tier list or no.

As a specific suggestion, try having ranged attackers with readied actions. Having a few archers with bows trained on him after his first big boom limits his doing things for a bit, and makes a lot of the battle "Dangit, someone take out those stupid archers/warlocks/whatzit so I can kill the rest of these kobolds!" If you wait until after he blows up some stuff, it also becomes a very feasible tactic - and can easily be shifted if someone else shows themselves as a severe threat.

Energy aegis and stay the hand are two other spells that may help alleviate the problem - I think they're both in the PHB2 (I know Stay the hand is. Energy Aegis might be spell compendium). Those are immediate action spells which can help give you very temporary energy resistance, or 'make a will save or don't assault me' respectively.

These are general-purpose useful spells too, so they're not specifically 'snipe the warmage'. If he is using elemental spells, things with random elemental resistances can help slow him down. Spell resistance may slow him down. High reflex saves / touch AC may slow him down. Violently assaulting him may slow him down. Mage Slayer will probably hard stop him, but that's a very heavy-handed option. Readied actions, however, are probably the best way to go.

[Namfuak]

The OP said he is playing the Shattered Gates of Slaughterguard. I don't seem to have that on my computer, but I went ahead and read the promotional text, and it seems like the players are mostly fighting demons. I don't know if they are actually fighting Demons or Devils, but many of them have some resistance to fire (even the lowly imp has resistance to fire 5), so make sure you are doing damage correctly. While others are suggesting giving everything two rogue levels for evasion, I think that we ought to remember that we still want the warmage to have fun, and if all of his fireballs are being dodged all the time he won't. Thus, it would make sense for one or two "elite" members of encounters to have some countermeasures against him (the aforementioned levels in rogue/barbarian, or a ring of evasion, or something), but then the other 3/4 enemies get made into barbeque by the fireballs he throws.

Another point is that both demons and devils are intelligent, so they ought to figure out that it's not a good idea to be all bunched up. If the rooms in the module don't allow for a lot of movement, have enemies ambush from more than one side so that the warmage is forced to use single target abilities. He's still blasting like it's going out of style, but encounters now can't be 1-hit quit by him, and it doesn't feel like you are specifically tailoring encounters to prey upon his weaknesses.

[Roffemuffe]

I am a relatively new DM, though this is not my first campaign, working with almost brand new players or players brand new to this system. Though we are only at level 2, we are already experienced an imbalance in the party.
...
and a human warmage with little back-story

Everyone except for the warmage is very much into it for the experience and story. The warmage hangs out on forums and looks up optimum builds.

This has created a party imbalance that I am not sure how to fix, as I have 4 players basing their characters off of a well thought out back-story who sacrifice power for flavor, while the other creates the build that they can get the most bang out of. The warmage becomes very dominant in all battles, which is clearly very frustrating to the other players, as he murders things before anyone else has a chance...

I better quote the Original Post, so maybe we can get on topic again.
I have two min/maxers in my group, one hack-n-slasher and one thinker.

How do I solve it? Don't know yet! But vary the encounters, so all classes shine!
Traps for the rogue, magic encounters for the wizard, throw in a grapple here and there for the fighter, divination and healing for the cleric.

Obviously, most of the players want to do what they are good at, a warmage is (appearently) good at dealing damage, so let him! Throw in a few encounters, so he can deplete his spells, then let the rest of the party deal with whatever is coming. Make him think about when it is a good time to use the spells. Maybe make resting a problem every now and then?
13 encounters per level? Make it 15 and let the 2 extra encounters be dedicated to that one player's spam of spells!


PS. I am talking 3.5e, since that's what I play! But I guess this can be generalized.

PPS. I just restarted our old group after a 10+ year break, and clearly aware of the power-player problem, I opened up with "everything is allowed, as long as it's from an official source." However, I hurriedly added what I expected from the campaign... Fun for all and that everybody got their fun from it, me included. I don't want to run as DM, with the only thing I have to do is find restrictions and combo's that counter their creativity. After all, if that was the case, they'd be 4 vs 1!
I ended up with ranger, cleric, rogue barbarian, with long back-stories and they even grouped up voluntarily two and two, so now I need to find another "inn-story" :smallannoyed:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I think this is what's bothering people about warmage: If this guy really knew his stuff, and really wanted to make powerful blaster, he would have gone wizard, sorcerer or psion (or basically any T1, but whatever). Instead he went Warmage. To me, there are one of two possibilities:

1. He doesn't know that Warmages are subpar; he just wanted to do a bunch of damage, saw warmage as the obvious choice, and looked to the tubes for a build after the fact.
2. He knows Warmages are subpar, and he likes to optimize, so he took the Warmage as an intentional handicap. It just wasn't enough of a handicap, because an optimized commoner (even lacking April Fool's Day flaws) could break the OP's game. Level of optimization is just that important.

Basically, if it's (1) the player just likes being a damage monkey (relative to your group). You're have to sit him down and have an adult conversation about whether his style of play works for this group, and if he's willing to tone it down.

If it's (2) I think he's going to be far more reasonable, and might even admit that his strategy didn't work out very well.

I'm also curious about the build.

[roguemetal]

I suspect the issue here is the speed at which the Warmage is ending encounters through sheer damage. Something even an optimized Fighter would be able to do, so I doubt this is a Tier issue. More likely the encounters simply don't have enough that the Warmage is having difficulty with. Throw elemental resistances at the party and you should instantly see the Warmage knocked down a peg. If he has Energy Substitution and/or Born of the Three Thunders you may have issues, and may need to remove it. Double-check the DC of his spells. See why your creatures can't avoid his spells, most of which should be based off Reflex, and index any DC increasing equipment he might have. Then just have a talk with him.

[2xMachina]

I might be wrong, but I think modules are usually easier. A module for lvl 5 is best played by a lvl 4 party (who're bad at it, or willingly reducing power). Higher optimization parties require an even higher lvl gap for the game to be interesting.

[Marlowe]

At level 2, most Warmage spells are ranged touch attacks with no blast. There's Hail of Stone and Burning hands, but those are the only ones that target Reflex saves rather than Touch AC. He's getting 5 level 1 spells per day, most of which represent a somewhat more powerful and accurate crossbow (depending on his INT score and DEX as well as his CHR).

I don't see how this could be that overpowering however oped, and I'd really like to know what precisely is going on.

[Quietus]

Wild guess - is it possible he's misapplying his Warmage Edge, or whatever that is that adds his int to damage? If he's mistakenly applying it per damage die, instead of once per target (I think that's how it works?), then that could quickly explain why he seems too overpowered.

[Marlowe]

At this stage, he's only got 4 spells that get more than one damage die. The two I mentioned plus the two melee touch attacks.:smalleek:

[ThiagoMartell]

I'm guessing he has some CL boosters.

[2xMachina]

I think a lvl 2 will be hard pressed to do CL increases.

Even reserve feats for the +1CL to Type spell needs 2nd lvl spells.

[ThiagoMartell]

I think a lvl 2 will be hard pressed to do CL increases.

Even reserve feats for the +1CL to Type spell needs 2nd lvl spells.

Versatile Spellcaster or Precocious Apprentice could get level 2 spells at level 1.
Bloodline of Fire is a level 1 feat.
With flaws (or cheese of some kind, such as selling your soul), you could get Bloodline of Fire, Precocious Apprentice/Versatile Spellcaster and Fiery Burst. You're now looking at +3 CL to fire spells, with a 2nd level spell once a day (could be scorching ray, even).

[Man on Fire]

WHAT THE HECK IS A WARMAGE POSSIBLY DOING OTHER THAN DAMAGE?

And why is HIT POINT DAMAGE a problem? That's all Warmages do! With a tiny bit of battlefield control.

Don't the other characters ever interact with the world in any way whatsoever other than dealing hit point damage to it??

Meanwhile in OP post:


The warmage becomes very dominant in all battles, which is clearly very frustrating to the other players, as he murders things before anyone else has a chance.